Is high DPR a bad thing?


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Once again, last night, we had a character death when a high DPR PC was turned against the party.

My group quite likes high DPR PCs, so this sort of thing is not unusual.

I mean - failing will saves against confusion and domination doesn't happen all the time, but it is inevitable at some point during an AP.

It led me to think, is it a bad idea to create PCs that can destroy one another in one round of combat?

(For us it's normally the rangers that do the killing when this happens; their ability to suddenly full attack a favoured enemy PC at a distance is pretty devastating).

Creating PCs with high DPRs is kind-a sexy, but isn't like walking around with a ticking time-bomb?

Richard


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If you're failing the multiple will saves required to be dominated and start killing your friends, you're spending too many resources on damage and not enough on defenses. It's a precarious balance but striking it is the responsibility of a martial that wants to get buffed.


High DPR works best if you strike first and strike fast. I'd say high DPR is a good thing, as you are more likely to end encounters quickly, giving enemy casters fewer rounds to turn you into puppets and murder each other. However, if you're getting dominated or confused so frequently, perhaps you switch up your battle tactics or beef up your will saves?


Well when you are this kind of time bomb, you need to secure yourself somehow, or to have a support that can do it for yourself.

For example, there is a trait that allows to re-roll a failed save once per day. This kind of thing can save your team if you are a nova type of character.

You also got good bards spells that can allow some re-rolls with an immediate action like saving finale.

Hight DPR isn't a bad thing, but you have to plan for the worst cases because it can be brutal...

"Power is nothing without mastery".


Arachnofiend wrote:
If you're failing the multiple will saves required to be dominated and start killing your friends, you're spending too many resources on damage and not enough on defenses. It's a precarious balance but striking it is the responsibility of a martial that wants to get buffed.

Pretty much this.

The problem you are having isn't that your party has high DPR martials. The problem is that you have glass cannons and vulnerable squishies. Shoring up on defenses can make the problem go away.

The alternative (cutting down on party DPR and trying to tank attacks) just creates a similar problem in that you can't actually kill the other team fast enough to avoid getting worn down by their attacks. Since trying to defend against an offensively orientated aggressor is generally a losing proposition in Pathfinder, this alternative is even worse.


Casting Protection From Evil routinely might be a worthwhile investment for a group like this - makes you immune to most mind control.


I'd say it depends... ar you regularly over killing things? I find a lot of the DPR build I see here put out far more damage than is really needed. Doing 100+ per round is nice but if your foes only have 50hp you're wasting resources.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Casting Protection From Evil routinely might be a worthwhile investment for a group like this - makes you immune to most mind control.

A 2nd save at a +2 is hardly immune, but it's better than nothing.


Uh, what? He means pre-buffing with Prot. Evil, which makes you immune to Evil spellcasters telling you to kill your friends. Which is basically immunity to everyone, because no Good/Neutral spellcaster would force a Good PC to kill their Good party member.


Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

I'd say it depends... ar you regularly over killing things? I find a lot of the DPR build I see here put out far more damage than is really needed. Doing 100+ per round is nice but if your foes only have 50hp you're wasting resources.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Casting Protection From Evil routinely might be a worthwhile investment for a group like this - makes you immune to most mind control.
A 2nd save at a +2 is hardly immune, but it's better than nothing.

It's immunity if you get it off before failing a save.


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richard develyn wrote:

Once again, last night, we had a character death when a high DPR PC was turned against the party.

My group quite likes high DPR PCs, so this sort of thing is not unusual.

Needs more cowbell defense.

Quote:

I mean - failing will saves against confusion and domination doesn't happen all the time, but it is inevitable at some point during an AP.

It led me to think, is it a bad idea to create PCs that can destroy one another in one round of combat?

No, it's bad to create PCs that can be destroyed by one-another in one round of combat.

Quote:

(For us it's normally the rangers that do the killing when this happens; their ability to suddenly full attack a favoured enemy PC at a distance is pretty devastating).

Creating PCs with high DPRs is kind-a sexy, but isn't like walking around with a ticking time-bomb?

Richard

High-DPR is actually one of the easiest things to defend against at mid to high levels. If PCs are not neglecting their defenses, their HP will far outstrip what they're likely to receive in a given round from another PC. The strongest DPR will ever be relative to HP is at 1st level where equal-level martials trivially one-shot stuff.

Liberty's Edge

Snowblind wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

I'd say it depends... ar you regularly over killing things? I find a lot of the DPR build I see here put out far more damage than is really needed. Doing 100+ per round is nice but if your foes only have 50hp you're wasting resources.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Casting Protection From Evil routinely might be a worthwhile investment for a group like this - makes you immune to most mind control.
A 2nd save at a +2 is hardly immune, but it's better than nothing.
It's immunity if you get it off before failing a save.

But... it's not immunity at all, by any stretch of the imagination. The subject gets to re-roll at a +2 morale, +2 resistance bonus on the first attempt at a mind-controlling effect, after which any new attempts are ineffectual.

RAW wrote:
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.

It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.


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CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.

And yet that's exactly what it does.

Sovereign Court

Also, Protection from Evil doesn't make you immune to Confusion. Only against effects that control you, which is a narrower set than just all charm/compulsion effects. It's still nice against Dominate of course.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.

After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.


Rocket tag is a factor of the game at very low and after 9 levels.


CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.
After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.

I have never seen it played that way.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.
After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.
I have never seen it played that way.

I have played tabletop RPGs for a far shorter time than most, but that doesn't change the language for the spell. It seems like it would be way too powerful for a level 1 spell, so it seems reasonable to me.


richard develyn wrote:

Once again, last night, we had a character death when a high DPR PC was turned against the party.

My group quite likes high DPR PCs, so this sort of thing is not unusual.

I mean - failing will saves against confusion and domination doesn't happen all the time, but it is inevitable at some point during an AP.

It led me to think, is it a bad idea to create PCs that can destroy one another in one round of combat?

(For us it's normally the rangers that do the killing when this happens; their ability to suddenly full attack a favoured enemy PC at a distance is pretty devastating).

Creating PCs with high DPRs is kind-a sexy, but isn't like walking around with a ticking time-bomb?

Richard

We need more information. What was the save DC, and what was the bonus to saves?

To answer the question, my answer is no. If the group knows this is a problem they should be able to handle it in some manner.


Spells being unreasonably powerful is pretty darn common, and Protection from Alignment has been frequently cited as something that should be changed for being so out of balance spellwise.

I understand why that sounds ludicrous if you're not a super-long time player, because I'm not an oldbie either, but it really is crazy like that.

Houserule to your heart's content though, no one will blame you.

Sovereign Court

CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.
After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.

Not precisely.

Protection from Evil wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.

You try to re-save against any effects already present, and are immune to attempts to establish any new effects.

However, this is all limited to effects that "possess or exercise mental control"; certainly includes Dominate but certainly doesn't include Confusion, Heroism and various other [compulsions] that don't give the caster any control over the victim.

Powerful? Certainly. It's meant to be.


CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.
After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.
I have never seen it played that way.
I have played tabletop RPGs for a far shorter time than most, but that doesn't change the language for the spell. It seems like it would be way too powerful for a level 1 spell, so it seems reasonable to me.

Actually, it does provide immunity if you cast it before the spell is used on you. If PoE is cast after the fact then you get a reroll.

The first time a spell is cast is still a new attempt.

At no point does the spell say you need to save before the immunity comes into play. It says that if you make the save current effects are suppressed.

Those are two different statements for two different circumstances.

The spell is already blocking all of the summon(evil) spells as a first level spell so the power issue is already out of the bag.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
It's a level 1 spell. Immunity from all mind controlling effects for minutes/level is a dumb expectation.
And yet that's exactly what it does.
After a first successful save, yes, that's exactly right.

Not precisely.

Protection from Evil wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.

You try to re-save against any effects already present, and are immune to attempts to establish any new effects.

However, this is all limited to effects that "possess or exercise mental control"; certainly includes Dominate but certainly doesn't include Confusion, Heroism and various other [compulsions] that don't give the caster any control over the victim.

Powerful? Certainly. It's meant to be.

I agree. I think the key phrase is actually "While under the effects of this spell". It does not kick in because you made the save mentioned earlier, the immunity is always true about new effects while the spell is on you.

Dark Archive

I asked my question generally, because it's happened more than once, but in this case I'll tell you that the encounter, for 7th level PCs, was with an Aboleth behind an Illusory Wall that used illusions to fool the PCs they were fighting something else.

This encounter is actually from a Paizo product but I wont say which to avoid spoilers.

The Aboleth got its three goes at casting dominate monster before it was spotted and eventually hit the ranger. They were all underwater, with nice swim speeds courtesy of Touch of the Sea, and Hasted, so in one round the Ranger did 50 points of damage to the swashbuckler, which fortunately didn't kill him but knocked him unconscious, and a few rounds later did 80+ points of damage to the warpriest, at point blank range (never mind the Aoos), which did kill him.

Richard

Sovereign Court

richard develyn wrote:

I asked my question generally, because it's happened more than once, but in this case I'll tell you that the encounter, for 7th level PCs, was with an Aboleth behind an Illusory Wall that used illusions to fool the PCs they were fighting something else.

This encounter is actually from a Paizo product but I wont say which to avoid spoilers.

The Aboleth got its three goes at casting dominate monster before it was spotted and eventually hit the ranger. They were all underwater, with nice swim speeds courtesy of Touch of the Sea, and Hasted, so in one round the Ranger did 50 points of damage to the swashbuckler, which fortunately didn't kill him but knocked him unconscious, and a few rounds later did 80+ points of damage to the warpriest, at point blank range (never mind the Aoos), which did kill him.

Richard

Did the ranger have some power going to offset the enormous hindrance water causes to ranged attacks?

CRB > Environment > Underwater combat wrote:
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.


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This is why in the comics, the Avengers have a "final solution" for the Hulk and why Batman keeps a suit of armor powered in part by kryptonite. High DPR is fine, when it's focused at evil.

I don't think it is bad to build for DPR, but I think its foolish to build ONLY for DPR and then not expect that decision to bite you in some way. I've seen this happen in my own games, and not always in the form of failed Will saves. The 2h barbarian who has NO ranged weapons; the blaster wizard who is dealing with energy immunity; the brutal dwarf fighter who can't get up to the front line.

I'm not saying that every player should work to eliminate their PC's weaknesses. I do think though that it is the responsibility of the players to understand what those weaknesses are and compensate for them in some way. In the case of the ranger in the example above, it might be prudent to have a "PC subdual plan" prepped. Entangle effects, sleep poison, enchantment negation spells or just Dispel Magic, etc.

Anyway, to the title of the thread no, high DPR is not a bad thing. Understand though that hyperspecialization in any one aspect of the game comes with the risk of falling woefully behind in other areas. Be aware and be willing to deal with consequences.


I do believe though that high DPR is a bad thing if it is hurting people's fun, and that includes the GM. If the other players feel like they are just there to mop up the mooks or that the big bad is always being one shoted before doing anything, then there is a problem.


richard develyn wrote:

Once again, last night, we had a character death when a high DPR PC was turned against the party.

My group quite likes high DPR PCs, so this sort of thing is not unusual.

I mean - failing will saves against confusion and domination doesn't happen all the time, but it is inevitable at some point during an AP.

It led me to think, is it a bad idea to create PCs that can destroy one another in one round of combat?

(For us it's normally the rangers that do the killing when this happens; their ability to suddenly full attack a favoured enemy PC at a distance is pretty devastating).

Creating PCs with high DPRs is kind-a sexy, but isn't like walking around with a ticking time-bomb?

Richard

Dominate Person wrote:
Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

I can think of little that is more "obviously self-destructive" than trying to kill the people who are trying to rescue you from being mind-controlled.


Mark Hoover wrote:

I don't think it is bad to build for DPR, but I think its foolish to build ONLY for DPR and then not expect that decision to bite you in some way. I've seen this happen in my own games, and not always in the form of failed Will saves. The 2h barbarian who has NO ranged weapons; the blaster wizard who is dealing with energy immunity; the brutal dwarf fighter who can't get up to the front line.

I'm not saying that every player should work to eliminate their PC's weaknesses. I do think though that it is the responsibility of the players to understand what those weaknesses are and compensate for them in some way. In the case of the ranger in the example above, it might be prudent to have a "PC subdual plan" prepped. Entangle effects, sleep poison, enchantment negation spells or just Dispel Magic, etc.

Anyway, to the title of the thread no, high DPR is not a bad thing. Understand though that hyperspecialization in any one aspect of the game comes with the risk of falling woefully behind in other areas. Be aware and be willing to deal with consequences.

I see it the same way.

Dont go for over-specialisation on DPR to the detriment of your other parts, like AC or Saves, or the ability to deal with problems that are square, and you totally specced for round problems, and then are left sulking around , in- and out-of-game.

Bring a Bow, even if you are a Melee-Carnage-Machine.
Dont ignore AC, even though you can Pounce at 100ft and 2-round most enemies.
Buy a Cloak of Resistance, even though your Wil-Save will still be "meh".
Bring a Longsword, even though you are Legolas 2.0 - the Arrowing.

Dark Archive

Ascalaphus wrote:

Did the ranger have some power going to offset the enormous hindrance water causes to ranged attacks?

CRB > Environment > Underwater combat wrote:
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Short range. Point blank in one instance.

Richard

Dark Archive

MeanMutton wrote:
Dominate Person wrote:
Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.
I can think of little that is more "obviously self-destructive" than trying to kill the people who are trying to rescue you from being mind-controlled.

I interpret "obviously self-destructive" as throwing yourself of a cliff or something.

As it happens, the mind-controlled person survived perfectly well, and now has a very nice Aboleth showing him the beauties of the deep blue sea, with probably a far greater chance of survival than the rest of the party who are now off on more dangerous adventures.

Richard

Dark Archive

To return to my original point, though.

I think you have to ask the question, as a party, "if one of us suddenly turns against us, how much damage can they do before we can react to it?"

Typically you don't know that someone is mind-controlled until it's their turn. They will then have a full round of doing something unpleasant to one of you before anyone can do anything about it.

It's similar to the danger of one-round-kill encounters, sometimes coupled with the surprise-round plus one-round killers that you can get with creatures that surprise you right next to them and then have high initiatives.

These things don't give you much of a chance to survive. With encounters it's obviously down to the adventure designers, but with mind-controlled PCs it's the players themselves that are causing their own problem.

Richard


When people talk about the multiple will saves, don't dramatize it. It's two. Two will saves and you're destroying the party. It's not hard to get two crappy saves in a row. Heck playing a high level module in PFS, first room we walk into the Wizard gets hit with an Invisible Stalker. Rolls a 1 against the illusion, rolls a 2 on his Fortitude save, uses his re-roll and rolls a 1, he had the best will save in the party.

My advice is to load a clear crystal ioun stone into a wayfinder and never get dominated again. Cheap and effective.

As far as DPS: People ask questions like this all the time, and others try to give advice, but the reality is, the ones giving advice really have no idea what they're talking about. Not because they don't know the game, but because they don't know your game. There's a thread right now asking if a 40 STR is too much. I haven't opened the thread, but I would imagine people are telling the poster that 40 is way too high, when really we have no idea if 40 is too high or not. What if the Rogue has a 40 DEX, the Wizard has a 40 INT, and the Cleric has a 40 WIS? Now is a 40 STR too much?

The other mistake people make is assuming balance is between players and the GM. That will never be balanced because the GM can do whatever they want "Goblins in my world have 600 hp and carry around +20 Artifact Swords that are versus Touch AC". Balance is between players. If you all have 40's in your stats, everything is gravy, if one has a 40, one has a 28 and another has a 14, you're going to run into problems.


Well, it's tempting to build PCs which focus on more and more damage - it's comfortably simple (you only have to care about one thing) and it's highly rewarding when it works (dangerous foes killed before they can act, impressive numbers, impressed fellow players). I enjoy it also.

I agree there should be some emergency plan, that's probably something most new players have to learn the hard way.

High DPR also has other drawbacks. First, you get diminishing returns for your resources spent (decreasing benefit per effort):

* If you use point buy and increase your damage stat (e.g. Str) by all means, each additional point of bonus will become more expensive.
* If you buy according items, their price will increase faster than their bonus.
* If you pick class abilities and feats for damage, you will take the best first. The more you pick up for this purpose, the worse the next one will get.

Well, there are countereffects. A damage stat often has synergy with itself: With high Str you hit better and when you hit, you hurt better, it's a quadratic bonus. Sometimes you need to pick up mediocre or bad class abilities and feats to unlock better choices. Still, diminishing returns are not to be underestimated here.

Second, you get diminishing returns for your damage. I mean, you can't achieve more than killing everything in one round, on your own. Any additional possible damage is technically wasted. That's just an extreme example for illustration. Let's assume you can do it in 6 rounds. With doubled damage output you can reduce it to 3 rounds, that's 3 rounds less where your party can be hurt. With triple damage it's 2 rounds, that's only 1 additional round less. You will need six times the damage to make it in 1 round, each damage increase reduces battle time less than the one before. This doesn't even factor in restrictions like 'full-attack only after little movement' or 'can't split high damage among weak foes at will'.

As for the first part, there are also countereffects here. If you give your opponents more time, they can more easily reduce your damage by buffs on them, debuffs on you, battlefield control or whatever.


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I always find that high DPR builds are unfriendly to the GM if you're running pregenerated content. One houserule I have found that can prevent power-builds from just wrecking such content is to hard-cap damage against a target at 50% its max hp.

This makes it so power builds are less emphasized at lower levels since it doesn't matter if someone does 90 damage to a Kobold with 4 hp, it can only take 2 hp from a single attack.

If you apply this, then it means you can throw some pretty nasty things at the PCs without just insta-killing them (since this cap also applies to PCs). This means you can have encounters with plenty of smaller enemies with the knowledge that they will be able to act for at least 2 rounds. If you use this, then have enemies die or surrender at 0 hp to become non-targetable non-combatants unless they have something that allows them to fight until they die from negative HP (you can essentially remove them from play).

If you have the time to rebuild the content, then tailor everything to pick on the PCs weaknesses while neither countering nor resisting their strengths.

PCs having the ability to 1-shot (or 1-round) other PCs if they get dominated is pretty common. It is one of the GM's tools for dealing with absurdly damaging characters.

All in all, this is pretty run of the mill. Also, don't forget that someone can coup de grace themselves if they're dominated.

To answer the topic:
Is high DPR a bad thing: yes and no.

Yes, it is a bad thing as if it is too high, then it requires the content to be partially or completely rebuilt to offer any challenge.

No, it isn't a bad thing if it either isn't game breaking or the game has extremely high mortality on both sides. If the enemies can 1-shot people just as well as they can 1-shot the enemies, then it works.

In the vast majority of Paizo pregenerated content, which is intended to be domitable by a base party of CORE characters, having high DPR or highly optimized characters should probably add +1 to their effective party level if not +2 for particularly egregiously powerful builds (E.G. Master Summoners, Dhampir Army Necros wizards with all minions bloody flaming skeletons, .etc).

There is also the argument for just building content that doesn't revolve around the strengths of the PCs. If they're all combat gods, then use hazard / trap dungeons, if they're trapfinding gods, then use social dungeons and if they're good at all three, then they likely are pretty damned balanced to the point you probably don't need to hard-counter them by just avoiding their overspecialized strengths.


Get a clear spindle ioun stone and a wayfinder. No need to track rations and continuous dominate and charm protection. 4500 GP.


richard develyn wrote:

...

Typically you don't know that someone is mind-controlled until it's their turn. They will then have a full round of doing something unpleasant to one of you before anyone can do anything about it....

Status.

Cleric knows instantaneously whats up and shouts a warning out-of-turn (yes short phrases are possible if you arent flatfooted), or simply casts a Hold Person before the s hits the fan.

Sovereign Court

richard develyn wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

Did the ranger have some power going to offset the enormous hindrance water causes to ranged attacks?

CRB > Environment > Underwater combat wrote:
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Short range. Point blank in one instance.

Richard

It's a -2 per five feet. Point blank would still be between -2 and -12.

Dark Archive

Ascalaphus wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

Did the ranger have some power going to offset the enormous hindrance water causes to ranged attacks?

CRB > Environment > Underwater combat wrote:
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Short range. Point blank in one instance.

Richard

It's a -2 per five feet. Point blank would still be between -2 and -12.

I'm aware of that. It's not enough to make a difference if you're right next to the person you're shooting at.

Richard


This whole problem is why I tend to play half elf martials.

They can get a +4 vs enchantments (+2 from immunity, +2 to all will saves with dual minded). Grab that, maybe iron will and at least 12 wis...yeah, you can do fine with will saves. Heck, you might end up front loaded enough that the caster cleric is jealous for a long, long time. Well worth the feat sacrificed by not being human.


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The human starting feat is vastly over valued in this day and age. Once a long time ago, you only got 1 feat / 3 levels and there were feat chains that you wanted. Today, the best classes need worry little about feat chains, you get more feats, and you're still limited to whatever you could pick at 1st level for the human bonus feat.

Most of the time, racial abilities are worth much more. Especially among the core races like dwarfs, elves, and halflings.


Everyone in the party is equally responsible for this sort of thing. I play the wizard in a party with a swashbuckler who does massive damage on a single hit. After using up charmed life, or whatever enhances his saves, he is very susceptible to being controlled. I consider it my job to mitigate to the extent possible. Sometimes controlling him back. Sometime turning him into a puppy with baleful polymorph. I also try to buff him when he'll let me to in order to increase his will save.


Jodokai wrote:
When people talk about the multiple will saves, don't dramatize it. It's two. Two will saves and you're destroying the party. It's not hard to get two crappy saves in a row.

I can top that - in a recent adventure, in a party of five characters, ALL FIVE managed to blow their will saves vs a monster that can spam Charm Person. Of those 5, FOUR had good will saves, and two of those had good Wisdom scores to boot. AND the GM gives us one free reroll a session, which we all preceded to ALSO blow.

But that fiasco gives me the chance to write something nobody else has ever had a reason to say: "Fortunately, then the Xill showed up." (Which gave my character the excuse to cast Protection from Evil, SOMEHOW actually roll higher than a 6 on my re-re-rolled will save, and start snapping my allies out of it.)


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

He's a ranger? No excuse. Animal Soul protects you from the vast majority of controls that would cause you to kill your party.

Dark Archive

Serisan wrote:
He's a ranger? No excuse. Animal Soul protects you from the vast majority of controls that would cause you to kill your party.

T'was Dominate Monster, I'm afraid :-)

Dark Archive

Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Jodokai wrote:
When people talk about the multiple will saves, don't dramatize it. It's two. Two will saves and you're destroying the party. It's not hard to get two crappy saves in a row.

I can top that - in a recent adventure, in a party of five characters, ALL FIVE managed to blow their will saves vs a monster that can spam Charm Person. Of those 5, FOUR had good will saves, and two of those had good Wisdom scores to boot. AND the GM gives us one free reroll a session, which we all preceded to ALSO blow.

But that fiasco gives me the chance to write something nobody else has ever had a reason to say: "Fortunately, then the Xill showed up." (Which gave my character the excuse to cast Protection from Evil, SOMEHOW actually roll higher than a 6 on my re-re-rolled will save, and start snapping my allies out of it.)

:-)

But in a way that's the point, you see. Even PCs with high Will saves will fail them every now and then.

Party-disaster = Probability-of-problem x Magnitude-of-problem

Increasing will saves reduces the probability but high DPR (as well as anything else which allows one PC to seriously damage the party in one round) keeps the Magnitude high.

Richard

Sovereign Court

Matthew Downie wrote:
Casting Protection From Evil routinely might be a worthwhile investment for a group like this - makes you immune to most mind control.

A clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder works wonders too.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rocket tag is a factor of the game at very low and after 9 levels.

If your group is on the offensive end of the spectrum.

If everyone in your group sacrifices some offense, you can get all of your defenses far higher and keep the game from going towards rocket tag. (outside of a few insta-death spells - but that's why I lean towards characters with solid saves and like dwarves)

Note: Pretty much the whole group has to do so. As soon as someone builds a glass cannon - everyone else has to shift towards offense to keep the enemy from killing them too quickly.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
richard develyn wrote:
Serisan wrote:
He's a ranger? No excuse. Animal Soul protects you from the vast majority of controls that would cause you to kill your party.
T'was Dominate Monster, I'm afraid :-)

I missed that point. Ugh, aboleths.

I flipped through my assortment of characters. The DC 22 save on Dom Monster for the aboleth is poor odds for all of them. My level 11 psychic even has a 50/50 shot at that without buffs up.

There are things that can be done here with foreknowledge, but that's a rough encounter if the thing is able to get off a one round cast without being noticed.


It always surprises me when I double check the Aboleth statblock and see that they are CR 7. Even if they were tuned down to not be as deadly as they are that wouldn't feel right; I mean, it's an Aboleth! It's supposed to be a potential Big Bad! Why the hell is it rated as being as tough an encounter as a Dire Bear?


I like to carry a bunch of scrolls of 'Fixing Me' on any martial character with deadly DPR to hand out to spellcasters in the party; have divine and arcane solutions, and more often than not -someone- can make use of them.

Just don't get angry when you get paralyzed or something not deadly to the caster and the caster doesn't waste their turn fixing it if they've got Black Tentacles to drop or what have you!

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