My gaming group that I GM are playing the Serpent's Skull Adventure. They are in the middle of book 4: Vaults of Madness, but it has been apparent many of the players are growing bored.
As stated in the description, one of my players is Summoner. The player is an Engineer. He sees everything as numbers, and knows almost every rule by memory. I have banned the use of Dire Tigers on his summon monster list. I have forced him to redesign his character once the UNCHAINED summoner was released. But nothing slows him down.
Being able to summon d4+ monsters like hound archons, and bralani azata as a standard action is insane. I can't deal with them and I haven't even started with the eidolon. In fact despite the fact that the eidolon is huge and grapples every boss creature I throw at the party, I would take the eidolon over the summons any day.
Party is wounded? we could ask the druid or warpriest to... nope Bralani Azata x2 with cure serious.
Bard, warpriest and druid about to melee with the large demon? Why bother, Summoner just summoned 3 celestial wooly rhinos with smite.
My bard spends most of the time on Instagram because the summoner's turns take so long to get through she has grown bored. She wants to participate but has mention to me, "What's the point?". My druid has opted out of fights and just sits out of reach casing down a bolt of lighting from time to time. And the wizard has taken to his levitate spell and just floats up and watches because why waste his spells with a trivial fight that the summoner with beat for them.
It's hard because my summoner player LOVES playing pathfinder. He often tells me it is the highlight of his week. It fills me with joy to hear that, but the rest of my party suffers. I have mentioned how overpowered he is, but he doesn't see it that way. In last nights session the wizard turned to him and ask OOC "Have you considered doing this campaign by yourself?". I am torn.
How should I deal with this? Should I:
1. remove the Summon Monster spell-like...
Create a nemesis that only targets him... agents working for said nemesis show up often and ONLY target him. The rest of the party essentially has one fight, the Summoner has his own problems...
Power up the rest of the party to level the playing field. I have run into your situation often (I have one player who is always way overpowered, and everyone else makes vanilla characters that are competent, but not overly strong).
Grant the 'underpowered' characters god-given abilities. Maybe throw a template at them. Maybe gear.
Boost them to his level, then pump the CR to match the parties new abilities.
Do NOT nerf the player/character, raise the rest up.
Use anti summon spells/items/mooks
Honestly, the encounters in serpent's skull are so weak that I can see many different types of characters soloing the thing. This isn't just about the summoner being powerful. When I GMed this campaign often I ended up having my party fight three *buffed* encounters at a time to keep things interesting.
Basically, Paizo always makes their encounters too weak. I suggest always doing at least two of the following: advanced templates for all monsters, maxed hit points for all monsters, add 2 or 3 levels to boss mosnters, and/or simply having the party fight three of the book's encounters at a time.
If you increase the number of monsters and their power to the point that the summoner *needs* help and can't solo things, then you're good.
Another option is to require the summoner to use one of the summoner archetypes that replaces Summon Monster. There are a few of them and then that would reduce him down to just using the eidolon.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good news is that you have a player that loves the game. Bad news is his focus and passion is ruining it for everyone else.
I assume that your friend isn't a jerk (if that is wrong, well this advice won't work) so I suggest asking him what he thinks the best solution would be. Getting cooperation in solving the problem, and getting him to help with a solution, will probably work better than imposing anything.
Some possibilities are weakening the summoner character, either house rule nerfs, a new character or something else or increasing the optimization of the other characters. The later means more work for you to keep the challenge going but is doable. In any event though, the best solution will be the ones you and your group feels is best for them, not necessarily the way I or anyone else would do it.
(One thing I have found works well for optimizing players in a non-optimizing group is have them play the support character, the one that makes everyone else do what they do better. It lets everyone shine, but that might not fit your player's needs.)
Matrix Dragon's suggestions are pretty good.
We recently played through Rise of the Runelords with a Synthesist Summoner, paladin, cleric and wizard plus a cohort paladin.
The wizard and cleric often sat back and watched as the others made mincemeat of multiple buffed and enhanced enemies.
The GM had to boost the enemies so much that 'normal' characters would have needed 20s to hit them and they still died like flies. Fortunately, he was good at this and made them interesting most of the time and needed the cleric and wizard to buff, debuff, and generally join in so we won without too many casualties.
If summoned monsters are being anything more than speed bumps, then your enemies are far too weak.
It would break his build, but I recommend a housrule that standard action summons cannot be used to summon multiples. Once you limit the summoning of multiples, turns go faster and force multipliers can't be abused as much.
If you want to keep things moving faster, you could always use a timer to limit everyone's turn. It's a bit heavy handed but does make things faster.
As for limiting summons in general, most of them don't have good ways of getting around dr. Note that celestial monster smite doesn't bypass dr like paladin smite.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dave has it right.
Talk to the player. Tell him the whole problem. Make sure he knows it's not HIS fault; he's just having a good time playing the game Paizo created, but through the fault of Paizo's game, this player's good time is having the opposite effect for everyone else.
Ask him if he's OK with that?
If he's even remotely a decent fellow, he won't be OK with it.
Then involve him in the solution. Ask HIM how the two of you can fix this problem, and then work together to fix it.
One good way to approach it is to say "Hey, Mike, I have a problem and I need your help." This puts him into a helpful frame of mind. Way better than "Hey, Mike, your character is ruining the game" which would put him in a defensive frame of mind. Once you open up by asking him to help solve your problem, then tell him the problem. Focus on how much it affects all of the other players and you too. Shift the blame to the rules (not to the player!) and ask for his help fixing it.
I'm sure he'll be glad to help.
If not, then part of the problem really is the player, and that's a whole different question.
If talking doesn't work or you don't want to try that yet...
Perhaps give the npcs Improved Counterspell or Dispel Magic (I think those would both work on spell-likes)? Ready an action and blast him when he goes to summon. Spells that instantly knock the target unconscious or put him to sleep work great as well.
An idea for martial npcs would be to get some Drow Poison or Blue Whinnis poison on their weapons. Although the saves for those two are pretty low so they probably won't work.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison
Theres also the Final Sacrifice spell. If the summmoned creature fails a fortitude save it instantly dies and deals damage around it. This can also be used on his eidolon.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/final-sacrifice
Unless he is using master summoner, which should almost never be allowed, he has to spend a standard action to dismiss his eidolon and wait till the next round to summon monsters.
Master Summoner is essentially one of the pure power gamer archetypes. Create a mirror of his character that wants to kill him, have it cast invisibility on itself before the fight and then do nothing but summon monsters right next to him.
Problem solved.
Since when is using a 5th-level spell to cast a low caster level 3rd-level spell overpowered?
Since when is using a 5th-level spell to cast a low caster level 3rd-level spell overpowered?Over monopolize may be a better choice of words.
Until he runs out of spells that is.
He can't fulfill every role in the party and not run out of steam before long.
Since when is using a 5th-level spell to cast a low caster level 3rd-level spell overpowered?Over monopolize may be a better choice of words.Until he runs out of spells that is.
He can't fulfill every role in the party and not run out of steam before long.
...What, have you never played with a Summoner in your party before? The summon SLA's are stupidly strong, quite possibly the strongest class feature that isn't a spellbook. With those and your actual spellcasting you can easily summon something almost every turn in a Paizo AP.
Ignore everyone telling you to look for counters to the Summoner's build; the Summoner will dominate encounters even more as they are now truly all about him, and if he's half as smart as you say he is then he won't be having fun either because he will know you're designing encounters to specifically harass him. Be honest with him about the fact that the Summoner is a problem; it's not his fault, he just saw something effective and interesting and utilized it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's too effective and is taking away the fun from other players.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
OK, your other players are bored out of their minds, and sick of watching "The Summon Monster Show" every game session. I've seen it first hand, and even had new players leave the game because of it. Why Paizo made a PC class designed around spamming summons, has always baffled me. It sounds like you are past the point of fixing this problem through encounter design, or subtle tweaks (most of those are temp band-aids anyway). Watching his summons do every encounter has become a sore subject, and if it doesn't end, your group will!
Retire the character. It is the only solution at this point.
In the future, remember that there are many ways to break the game. Some of those ways are 100% rules legal, some not, and it's not always obvious what will damage the game. As GM, try to spot troublesome rules and prevent them from having a negative effect on the game. It's not easy, especially with players who view character creation from a systems-analysis point of view.
Give this a read. I hope it will help your group to have more fun at the table, as that should be everyone's goal.
There are many great guides for building optimal characters for damage dealing, being invulnerable, battlefield control, and being Batman! While it is fun to play a character that excels at what they do, many players find that playing these builds results in a severe game often dictated by the first person to win initiative and go nova. The requirement to keep up with the Best Caster Build or Highest Melee Machine narrows the options down considerably. Likewise such characters require APL+3 (Epic!) or more encounters that bend the CR system in ways that make encounter design and management a more difficult task for the GM. The rules, the adventures, and almost everything else published is not intended for optimized play.
So what are these rules designed for, if not optimization? Like most other games, the intent is that these rules facilitate a GM and players to have fun. Sounds easy, but what is fun?
As a player, I have fun:
- Controlling the actions of my PC.
Customizing my PC with skills, feats, equipment, and other features.
- Knowing that if I generally play well, and have a little luck, I will do well most of the time.
- Having my characters decisions and actions affect the environment and story.
- Getting experience and treasure that allows me to increase the power of my character.
- Feeling that I can, and occasionally must do my best to defeat encounters.
- Knowing that my fellow PCs are supporting me, and that we act in each others best interests.
- Knowing that my PC is on par with the rest of the party and that we affect the game in fairly equal amounts.
- Not knowing exactly what to expect, and trying to be ready for anything.
- Even if bad things happen to my character, or the dice go against me, I still have fun if I am engaged in the game.
- Feeling that in most opposed circumstances, it is the dice that decide the outcome.*
GMs enjoy the game for different reasons then players.
As a GM I have fun:
- Presenting a campaign world with locations, encounters, mythos, timeline and NPCs.
- Presenting a wide variety of encounters that engage the players, and encourage them to have fun playing their characters.
- Knowing I have general control of the storyline and timeline, with occasional (sometimes unexpected) exceptions.
- Knowing that players will use wits and creativity to solve encounters, and vary their tactics to fit the situation.
- When everyone at the table participates in the game to the amount they are comfortable with.
- When players are friendly, kind, and enjoy themselves.
- While I decided if a roll is needed and add the modifiers, the dice decide the outcome.*
* GM, and even player "Cheating" (i.e. ignoring dice rolls) is a highly debatable topic. Like all issues, discuss it beforehand, and come to a consensus on how your group views it.
So how do we use the rules to make that kind of fun happen?
We start at the beginning - Creation!
Ability scores and character creation
First off, skip the dice. I know many people love rolling, but a few low rolls can result in less fun for the life of the PC. This can also result in dramatic party imbalances, and players unable to play the character they want. Let the dice decide what happens that round, not for life.
The point buy or stat array system used usually doesn't really matter much, in the sense that it slightly affects everyone in the group fairly equally (Low point buys actually benefit full caster types a little). The goal at this stage is to set the game up to work with the CR system, and encourage parity among classes throughout the game.
This is normally where the players take over and deliberately or unintentionally exacerbate some of the worst balance issues of the game. The key to evening out those power imbalances is to start characters off by evening out their ability scores. For example, it is much more difficult to become a game shattering god wizard with a starting intelligence score of 16. I recommend limiting the max starting ability scores (AFTER racial adjustments) to 16 or 17! For the same evening-out reasons, I also recommend limiting minimum stats to 10 or 8 (AFTER racial adjustments). These limits will encourage PCs more capable of dealing with a variety of situations, and less able to damage game balance.
Next is Hit Points. This is another area where many people have a wide variety of different methods that frequently bend game balance. Again, skip the dice, as no one wants to play a character that rolls a 1 every level, or be the sidekick to the guy who always rolls max. Follow the default max hit die (plus con modifier) for level one characters. After that, just give the PC happy side of average (plus con modifier) every level. PFS really got this one right. Generally, you should not modify this formula, as it can alter many factors such as the relevance of healing, AC, direct damage, etc.
How does everyone have fun?
So far we have significantly rebalanced the game, without really altering the rules, so much as providing guidelines for character creation. But perhaps I jumped the gun a little. Before we even get to character creation, it is probably a good idea for the GM to sit down with the players, and discuss what the expectations for the game are.
I would start by going over the different ways the players and GM have fun and discussing them as a group. This is NOT the time to argue, it is a time to be HONEST with yourself and the group, and express and LISTEN to everyone's opinions. Do you like Rollplaying more then Roleplaying? Be open about it! Your not doing yourself or anyone else a favor by pretending to like things you don't really like. Be open to new experiences and playstyles, but express your desires and expectations honestly. Come to some kind of consensus with the GM and players about how you will all enjoy the game.
In addition to how YOU have fun, this is a great time to discuss other aspects of play, such as:
House rules.
Use of computers and/or phones and access to reference material at the table. In general characters should have access to information about their own characters, but most GMs frown on players looking at information about enemies. Reading the adventure path or module is usually very strictly forbidden.
What books and material are allowed in the game and what restrictions are there. Do these restrictions apply equally on both sides of the screen?
Dice handling and GM and/or players ignoring dice. This usually take one of three forms:
- -GM roles in the open, results are not altered by the GM
- -GM rolls in secret, and may or may not follow the dice. Requires the players to trust the GM will fudge, but they will not know when, for fun to be maintained.
- -GM dictates action in some opposed circumstances without dice rolls. Requires players to trust the GM will dictate the action for the benefit of the game (without the 'illusion' of dice rolls) for fun to be maintained.
Amount of table time dedicated to combat, NPC interactions, and exploration.
Amount of expected wealth, mundane and magic item availability.
How downtime and/or crafting will be handled.
Tracking of encumbrance, minor items, ammunition, rations, water, mounts, living expenses, etc.
Tracking of important information such as HP, spells cast, limited abilities used, harmful conditions, etc.
If tracking discrepancies occur, will there be punitive action?
Level advancement - will the game use an XP advancement track or will leveling be handled a different way?
How will PC death be handled and how will bringing new PCs into the game be handled. Note: I recommend bringing in new PCs at the same level as the rest of the party, but with the starting wealth of a character one level lower. I also disagree with the designers about allowing characters to exceed WBL if they have crafting feats. I feel this unbalances the game in favor of the classes that generally need the least help (especially wizards) and breaks the assumptions that a PC used all his powers to get his starting wealth.
Expectations about what general types of encounters the PCs can expect. Players should be able to make informed decisions about character aspects such as favored enemy, deity and domains, schools, etc.
How alignment will be handled. Is it polar (the rules/setting default) or more of a subjective "realistic" situation.
Level of gore and sexuality in the game as well as any topics that players would have issues with encountering in game.
Out of game issues like food, drugs/alcohol/smoking, money, attendance, guest etiquette, etc.
Again, BE HONEST with yourself and the people you play with.
ABILITY SCORES
The more you spread your ability scores out, the more you can contribute in a variety of situations. Always pay attention to weaknesses your character might have, and don't neglect the scores associated with that weakness. For example, clerics and druids have weak reflex saves, and can greatly benefit from a little dex. This can be especially true for will saves, as failing them can often result in loss of actions, or wost, your characters actions being dictated by the enemy. Failing saves and being consistently hit in combat is generally not fun for most players, so plan for strong defenses (adequate Dex,Con,Wis)
To participate effectively in social situations it helps to have a little Cha, although Wis for sense motive is good in a pinch. Being able to put ranks into a variety of social and other types of skills (especially knowledge and languages) is easier when you have more Int. I don't want to leave out Str, especially for characters who wear armor, and want to deal weapon damage.
CLASS
Barbarian
Save the super raging power attacking crazy high damage stuff for when it is required. Put a little effort into ranged attacking, and consider what you can do when you can't be effective by doing melee damage. Put resources into AC (perhaps ude a shield sometimes) and will saves. Invest in being effective without raging and/or taking excessive damage. Other then intimidate, the class doesn't give many social options, but put some points into sense motive or diplomacy, keep your Wis high, and don't dump Cha or Int.
Other then being aware that you can disrupt combat encounters with massive damage, barbarians are also more then capable of losing massive amounts of hit points as well. As the player of the Barbarian, YOU are responsible for dealing with this, and you should not expect any other player to give up their actions, spell slots, or resources without talking about it first.
Bard
Bard is one of the funnest classes to play! You are great in social and skill situations, and with a little effort, you can be an archer, melee, or specialize in enchantment or illusion. You also have great skills, and inspire courage and many other buffs makes you welcome in any party. Huzzah!
Cleric
Clerics are a very powerful and very versatile class. By selecting domains, you gain access to all kinds of different spells and abilities. Channeling positive energy will make you an exceptional healer, and there are many great buff spells clerics can cast. You can melee, summon, blast, de/buff and more. Keep a supply of scrolls and potions around so you don't have to fill your memorized spells with delay poison and remove paralysis. Clerics are one of the most skill starved classes, so you will need to spread your ranks carefully.
Druid
Similar to clerics, druids are versatile, and can be built to fulfill many different roles. Druids can be very powerful summoners, but this can really suck the fun out of the game if used excessively or if the player is not prepared and knowledgeable of the creatures abilities. It is generally best to only have one summon spell at a time, and be aware of affecting other PCs with you summons. A similar idea applies to some of the druids battlefield control spells like entangle and spike stones. Be careful not to slow the game down or interfere with other players.
Fighter
Fighters are the most consistently powerful martial characters, often the only one in the group who doesn't need time to get up to full power when suddenly facing an enemy. While fighters have many options for specializing in defense, archery, 2HD, 2WP, focus/specialization, maneuvers, they also have enough feats to do a few other things well in addition to their specialties. Fighters should mix up their tactics to best fit the situation and avoid over using action-denial tactics like tripping and grappling. Like Barbarians, fighters struggle to succeed in social situations, and have even less skill points to spend... dig deep.
Monk
Monks are one of the most difficult classes to play and have fun with. Monks often feel overshadowed by the full BAB classes in combat, and lack decent options for ranged attacking. While monks have some great defensive abilities, AC is not among them, and they struggle with hit points as well. If you are going to play a monk, work with the other party members and get buff spells like mage armor and displacement cast on you. Monks also tend to do better in groups that play a more lawful style rather then chaotic kick-in-the-door-play.
Paladin
Paladins can be a very fun and powerful class to play, however, this class is more dependent on alignment then any other class. Be sure that the ENTIRE group is willing to compromise with a paragon of lawfulness and goodness. Create a code of conduct that your character will follow, and agree with the GM about what constitutes Lawful and Good.
Ranger
Rangers are a slightly odd class, with a little of everything, and a few amazing feats and options here and there. Like fighters, rangers class features/ feats focus them in a particular style, but with a little effort into diversity, they can participate in any situation. I highly recommend checking out the switch hitting ranger in Treantmonks excellent guide. Rangers do best in campaigns where their favored enemies and terrains come up frequently.
Rogue
The rogues problems are largely not the fault of the class, but rather the parts of the game that he specializes in. The rogue is generally consider to be the "skill monkey" however most skills do not ramp up throughout the game as well as other class features. The "skill monkey" is also the character who is expected to sneak ahead, scout, and find/disable/trigger traps, however, none of the other characters can generally be more then a liability for the rogue in these situations. This results in the situation of one player acting alone while the rest of the players wait, and the GM attempts to minimize the rogues spotlight time in order to get the other players back in the game. Finally, rogues generally require a fairly high level of game skill to do well in combat. If possible, work with the other players to maximize your assets and minimize your liabilities.
Sorcerer
Sorcerers can be very versatile, however it requires careful spell selection. Try to select spells that can be used in a variety of situations. Remember that you will be casting the same spells over and over (often round after round) so you don't want to select spells that will bog down the game, or focus too much on action denial. Spells that you can cast on other characters will always be appreciated. Sorcerers are one of the most skill starved classes, but have a great Cha for social situations.
Wizard
Wizards are generally considered the most powerful and easiest to optimize of the core classes. A high Int and focus on save-or-suck magic can upset game balance from the beginning, and full casters progressively get more and more spells that bypass common adventure plots. They also have access to crafting bonus feats that allow them to be masters of magic equipment far beyond their suggested wealth by level. The best way to play a wizard is to focus on teamwork and save your most powerful spells for when things are going badly for the party. If you use your magic to make the whole party succeed, everyone gets to participate, and the GM has a much easier time maintaining parity among party members. Be wary of using powerful spells with long duration such as command undead, dominate person, and planar binding. These spells can be used to drastically upset game balance and story development. Wizards (and other full casters) can eventually do things to break the game - so don't do those things.
NEXT UP: GMing the Game
Do your best to understand the rules and what aspects of the game you enjoy and why. I personally don't enjoy action denial and save-or-suck effects. I won't allow characters that are incapable of functioning with the group or as a part of the campaign setting. Every character is expected to be "special-forces" material, and be capable at what they do. You are part of an elite group that relies on each other for survival every day. Playing a "lone-wolf", psychopath, spoiled brat, revolting deviant, moron, jerk, or other non-team player will not be tolerated. Characters are generally not allowed to attack, target with hostile spells, or use adversarial skills on another PC. PCs are also expected to not steal from each other, or withhold information. All treasure discovered is considered group property until divided up. While I don't explicitly ban Evil characters, I don't really want to spend hundreds of hours of real time facilitating your character committing evil acts. It usually gets depressing fast. I won't allow player characters to make opposed rolls against each other (baring magical control)
I also have policy of no rules exploiting. Bringing a character to the table who is going to disrupt play, destroy verisimilitude, or otherwise squelch the fun of others is unacceptable, regardless of optimization level.
I expect the party to be able to handle the challenges of an adventure. They need to be able to participate in combats, heal injuries and conditions, talk to people, and a variety of other tasks. They don't have to do these things well, but they do have to be able to function in an adventuring environment.
And remember, it doesn't matter if it's rules legal or not, if people are having less fun due to something, alter or get rid of it!
You mentioned how it bogs down game play. This is the first problem I think you need to correct. Ask your player to have stat blocks for every creature that he is going to summon prepared before summoning them. There are sites that can help him create them.
You didn't mention an archetype on the Summoner, so I don't know if they have one or not. With the normal Summoner you can either have the Summon Monster or the Eidolon out, not both. You also can't have two different summoned creatures out at the same time.
You may want to also make sure both of you are following the rules. Things like needing to communicate with the summoned creature (or use Handle Animal in the case of animals) in order to do anything except straight-line attack. That means that the Summoner doesn't have a lot of skill points for other things.
If you could post a build of the Summoner's character and Eidolon, that would make it easier for us to give customized advice.
Spellcasting opponents should get a Knowledge Arcana roll to recognize that the character is a summoner. That is likely to result in a lot of Protection from Good or Protection for Law spells being tried to protect against the summoned creatures. What sort of protection spell depends on the summoner's alignment.
Summoners do not got social skills as class skills and have very few skill points. That means they probably aren't good at the monster identification (Knowledge) or social skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, etc). I am not familiar with Serpent's Skull, but there should be some sort of out-of-combat encounters.
The above is all in addition to talking to the player about the problems. Help him to understand it is a group effort and he shouldn't monopolize.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you all for your replies! The feedback has helped exponentially. I have talked to my player and we have already taken steps to rectify his character, and if it doesn't work out he was quite willing to retire his summoner for a character more suited to the party's needs.
Thank you all again!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is absolutely a problem to take care of out of game.
I understand exactly the problem that is occurring. I'm an engineer myself and I have really learned how to use the system to its most potent statistical advantage. However, that doesn't mean that I always do. In fact, whenever I start character creation for a game, I gauge how strong my party members are before I start building and try to match their general strength levels.
You need to take some time away from the gaming table to sit down with this player and explain things. He is clearly much better at using this system than the other players, and while there is absolutely no problem with that, he is overshadowing them. Ask him to take it down a few notches, work as a member of the team to help collectively solve problems instead of doing it all himself.
Master Summoner is essentially one of the pure power gamer archetypes.That's probably why my master summoner kobold has the God Compkex :)
It is the problem with the class's archetype and mechanics. Summoner summons can basically just stick around for the entire bit of content, and he can also just use his regular spell slots to spam speedy SM: 1 monsters to rush into traps.
The true terror of the master summoner is when he acquires a ring of invisibility. If the GM thought he was bad before, now he can't even be targeted. Increasing AC doesn't work either, since it just means the summoner will choose grapple focused summons.
In the end, the only real way to deal with a master summoner is with spell resistance since it will result in at least some of his summons making a single attack and winking out of existence.
Again, if he is killing your game, just make him play a different class or put restrictions on the class. If you have time to rewrite things or rebuild encounters, then spend things with spell resistance and pull out many encounters instead of a few.
If you notice that on the first round of combat he just summons monsters immediately, start using illusions to bait out his summon monster uses for the day.
I believe this is an issue inherent with the APs and modules of Pathfinder, or perhaps it is an issue with the new classes. The content in the game has to be built around the axiom that a sub-optimal core group could defeat it, and for that reason optimal characters tend to break it pretty hard.
I could see Paizo offering "challenge" content that is intended for completely optimal characters, but I foresee that being counter productive.
One option is to break the CR system apart, then take your best guess as to what CR the master summoner should be at, then just put it back together. Remember, that the CR system assumes 4 characters, so just reduce the level by 4 and you have the XP for each person. If Mr. MS is godly, then increase his individual CR by 1 or 2, if someone else's build is horrible, then decrease their individual CR by 1. This system does mean that you're going to end up having as many enemies as there are PCs, which is both a blessing and a curse, but it also means you'll be able to have stronger enemies to deal with Mr. MS.
Another option is using Golems. They're immune to pretty much all magic, so when that summoned monster attacks it it goes poof.
I've GMed Serpent's Skull myself and also think much of the problem comes with the adventure part the OP's group is in atm. Much of it is spread too thin and left too open to GM out of the box.
Much of what I needed to change had to do with the Saventh Yhi location:
One thing that I have been known to do with more strategic players is to point out that this is combat and your action takes 6 seconds. If the player is rifling through tonnes of notes to get the exact perfect spell, the characters action is held until they have what they need. Don't let the combat last for hours.
Another, house ruling fudge that can help with a summoner is something that may well get shouted down, but if you ask the player he may get on board as it adds variation and interest to his character. write each of the summonable monster names on a piece of paper. Each morning the summoner pulls 1d6+2 pieces of paper from the hat, these are available to summon. The reason this can help is it stops the player just relying on the big guns, he has to be more creative with a smaller range of monsters.
Just a couple of thoughts.
|
Basically, Paizo always makes their encounters too weak.
Absolutely. If there is a good way to go about fixing the issue in a non-PFS game, it's to power up the rest of the party with special and unique abilities. Given them something to do while the summoner is off doing something else. Find a way to sequester him from his party, or weaken his summoning.
Bring something that has a lot of casts of Banishment spells, and hit him with a trap that lowers will saves. Alternately, go with the "special BBEG" idea and design an encounter meant to challenge him disproportionately. Something like a high level caster with Banishment augmented by whatever special item is needed for each summon.
Sometimes a real threat to the party can liven up a home game, keep them on their feet and in the game. Tone it down if you have people going down, of course.
Ok, I don't know anything about this AP and I haven't dealt with a summoner at that high of level. Having said that, I've seen virtually the same thing with most any concept when one person is much better at optimizing than the rest of the group. I have seen wizards, clerics, barbarians, paladins, sorcerers, etc... all make the rest of the group feel like they are wasting their time.
I really don't think the summoner (especially unchained) is really so super powered compared to all the other classes. I think it is really that it is extremely easy to optimize compared to the other classes. A few pretty obvious feat and spell choices and it is instantly about as powerful as it can be.
We've probably all seen a wizard, cleric, or fighter screwed up to the point that it just doesn't work very well. That is really pretty tough to do with a summoner unless the player is really clueless.
There are 2 types of potential 'fixes.' In-game and out-of-game. Depending upon how serious the problem is, in-game might be enough. If it is a bit worse, out-of-game is probably necessary. If it is really bad, you will almost certainly need both.
In-Game
A) Enemies that learn.
A while back, I had a player that was super optimized for fire spells. So I had the BBEG start sending attack groups equipped with scrolls of communal protection from fire. "Your mondo fireball doesn't appear to have singed any of them, although the building you are in is now on fire." "WHAT? That ruins all my best spells"
Paladin archer dominating? Start using fewer evil opponents who have up a wind wall.
There are lots of spells that get rid of or even take over summoned monsters. If the party is becoming famous or there is a background bad guy, why would he not start equipping his people with those.
B) Misdirection so he sometimes summons the wrong thing. He summons dire rhinos to kill the enemy knights? Turns out all of those mounts have overland flight and will be charging the players from out of the rhinos' reach. He summons fire elementals to burn up the white dragon? It was really a disguised flame salamader.
C) Do not allow the 15 minute adventuring day very often. Even a summoner has a lot of spells and summons at high level. But if there are lots of encounters everyday, he will have to start saving some capabilities for 'just in case' situations.
D) Intelligent enemies should work to take out the biggest threat very fast. A summoner with an eidolon and summoning an army should be a primary target for any even halfway smart opponent.
E) Bad guy spying/scrying/watching and sending spoiling attacks specifically to burn through the summoned monsters.
F) Non-combat encounters.
G) Splitting up the party.
H) Ambush assassin surprise.
I) Max time limit on each players turn.
Out-Of-Game
1) See if the other players will accept help optimizing their builds. This doesn't get much attention. Probably because it is the most difficult for the GM (GM has to help with optimization and then massively scale up all the important encounters). But your problem is really the power disparity. If all of the PC's are super powerful, most of the problems you described go away.
2) Talk to the player very clearly. Don't hint, dance around the subject, or ask passive/aggressive questions. Many of us engineers don't pick up on that stuff very well. But try not to be accusing either. "You did an excellent job of making a very powerful PC. Congrats! But we have some issues. The group is about to break up because no one else is having any fun. The summoner is outshining all the other PC's so much, that there isn't any point to them being there. Do you have any ideas on what we can do to improve the situation?"
3) I've had a real optimizer player that I started asking to 'Go ahead an optimize to the nth degree, but start with a weak concept.'
The first time I asked him if he would be willing to make an arcane trickster for the next campaign. The story kinda needed one and I didn't think the other guys could do very well with it. (Then I made damn sure to write a bunch of stuff for an arcane trickster into the plot.) He actually came to enjoy it. He got to put all his optimizing skills to use on an arcane trickster, a club gladiator, a live catch ranger, and even an adept (the NPC class).
If you haven't tried 1) or 2) then you really don't yet have much grounds for complaint.
I'm kind of surprised that your summoner is dominating with Summon Monster. I played a summoner through book 3 and I rarely used SM because my eidolon was so much better. Since he's summoning multiple Lillends (SM6) I assume he's level 13? Lillends only have 75 hps. Even with Augment Summoning it's only 87. A CR 13 monster should be able to take that out in a single round and the Lillend won't be able to hit the monster at all, let alone bypass DR. As above, Protection from XX is a first level spell, just use that. Now no summons to hurt me.
I'm kind of surprised that your summoner is dominating with Summon Monster. I played a summoner through book 3 and I rarely used SM because my eidolon was so much better. Since he's summoning multiple Lillends (SM6) I assume he's level 13? Lillends only have 75 hps. Even with Augment Summoning it's only 87. A CR 13 monster should be able to take that out in a single round and the Lillend won't be able to hit the monster at all, let alone bypass DR. As above, Protection from XX is a first level spell, just use that. Now no summons to hurt me.
That's 87 hp per lillend though, with 2-4 lillend per use. And an attack against the lillend is an attack you don't have to heal from later.
Protection from x spells don't protect from all summons, just those with x alignment. And most encounters won't reasonably have someone capable of casting that spell.
The problem with the "counter him with..." approaches is that you, the GM, spend waaaaaayyy too much time focusing on trying to balance the encounter against that 1 player. It does nothing to help the rest of the table feel involved.
So this
Thank you all for your replies! The feedback has helped exponentially. I have talked to my player and we have already taken steps to rectify his character, and if it doesn't work out he was quite willing to retire his summoner for a character more suited to the party's needs.
Thank you all again!
is the best news to hear!
I mostly agree that countering shouldn't be used if it's overly focused on one player. That's why I recommend using more monsters with damage reduction. It limits the damage of summons without feeling like you are focusing on limiting summons.