Memyselfishness's page

Hey I was right! I said Occultist and Psychic equivalent!

Expand on the concept? Well: New ways to use the talents, different ways to interact with action economy, expanded abilities, variable feats (works one way for 1 element but another way for another), different ways to combine elements besides just the blast, etc.

5 elements (maybe 6 if we add in a positive plane like you suggest) gives a lot of options already. Many more than most PF2 classes get to begin with. If we add class archetypes for alignment planes and exotic aspect of elements you get even more. New elements really aren't that needed.

It would make sense to me, that if they vaguely expand the overall concept to be manipulating of energies rather than elements, future books could add more "traditions" (for lack of a better word coming to my mind right now) such as for alignment or other such things there wouldn't be as much work required as there is for class archetypes. As they stand right now, it looks like the designers want class archetypes to fit multiple different classes and not just change one specific class. They've definitely been future proofed as well for newer classes. Having entire archetypes just for the Kineticist seems like unnecessary work, especially if the class can be designed in a way to allow for those options to exist at some point in the future.

QuidEst wrote:

Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:

My prediction is the Buttermancer, an Occult Caster who weaves their magicks through the uncanny power of baked goods.

Seems like a lot of overlap with the Saucerer.

Idk both seem to be combos with meatserker.

All of these seem like great options for multiclassing as an Ingestigator.

I say the book is going to be Occult themed and we will be getting the equivalent of the Occultist and the Psychic.

I'm kinda interested to see what new types of martials we could get. Other than 4e Warlord or something defensive focused (aside from Champion) akin to Midnightoker's wonderful Drifter, I honestly can't imagine anything new in that department. Sure, there's a couple of class archetypes for the current ones martial classes that would be interesting to see. I'm talking purely martial, no spells/wavecasting. Any ideas?

I could make the same argument by stating X new class having Legendary in Weapons/Armor doesn't take away from the Fighter or Champion having it, but I can assure you that many people do not and would not like those things implemented, and they have stated as such. It's not spiteful, it's niche protection. Flexible spellcasting tradition was a niche for Sorcerers, and it's been poached by 2 classes.

No. That's... What? I just can't comprehend this mindset. Is the Investigator poaching the niche of the Rogue by having more skill feats and bonuses than default classes? Was the Witch in PF1 poaching the niche of the Wizard by being an INT based prepared arcane caster? Flexible casting tradition is part of the design tools available when creating a class in PF2. The Sorcerer, Witch, and Summoner are nothing alike in anyway except for the fact they having spells and a flexible tradition. Flexible casting was pitched as the unique thing of the Sorcerer because it was new! It was an idea that was different from PF1 and they needed to sell us on the changes. I personally would be happy for new classes with Legendary proficiency in weapons/armor if it makes sense for the class and they do something new. A non-magic martial character with Legendary proficiency in armor seems interesting to me. It's not a Champion, it's something different. Likewise, while I don't see how another martial class could have Legendary weapon proficiency without being Fighter 2 (was Gunslinger ever confirmed to be keeping Legendary in guns?), I would still be down for it if the mechanics make sense. Artificially limiting the options for a class because it's part of another classes "identity" is silly, especially when it's a mechanical feature. Witches and Summoners making total sense to be flexible thematically and in universe.

Looking at classes as mechanical selling points seems a bit weird to me. I never thought of variable tradition as THE feature of the Sorcerer, just a benefit of THE feature of having a bloodline as well as embracing new design possibilities provided by PF2. Not allowing Summoners and Witches the ability to choose other traditions seems like them being limited by the Sorcerer rather than the other way around. Witches get patrons and familiars; Summoners get freaking Eidolons. They have their own special features. The core classes all have more broadly-scoped features. A Fighter is such a variable character, they don't even have to be similar. However, as we get more classes they'll become more and more focused. An Oracle is more specific than a Divine Sorcerer, a Witch is more specific than a Wizard. Magus, Summoner, Inventor, and Gunslinger are all extremely specific when compared to the core classes. It's partially why I don't expect a Warlord class. That's already pretty easily accomplished by various archetypes imo, because that is too general of a class idea. Then again, I never played DnD4e so have no true idea what an actual Warlord plays like.

Depending on how it is approached, I can see Psychic as a class archetype for Sorcerer or as a class, provided it is different enough from any other caster.

I expect there to be a Psychic Caster class archetype. Prerequisite of either casting spells or just Occult spells. Then you cast spells using emotion and thought components as opposed to verbal and somatic. Perhaps some additional benefits and changes. That being said, I also expect at least one full caster that uses Psychic Casting by default.

Your idea about the Occultist equivalent summoning small minions and making pacts is interesting. It definitely feels more like an archetype than a class to me though. It's something that Wizards, Witches, and even more mundane classes like Investigators or Alchemists would believably use.

GGSigmar wrote:

So what do people want it as a separate class?

Prior to the release of the Gunslinger, there was a project I and a few others worked on called the Drifter.

The Raven Black wrote:

How so ?

I do not see them that similar at first sight.

Mechanically, I think "Grit" and "Judgement" could easily be altered to suit an Inquisitor.

They also both carry a lot of the same "I have a code, but I'm rough around the edges" vibes, as well as legacy abilities on Inquisitor fitting really well with Drifter's "lone wolf" (Solo tactics for instance)

So theme-wise, I don't think they are that separated.

Then the paths would change only slightly, probably with the actual "religion" option being one of the paths, and the other paths being more agnostically inclined to a particular code.

There would have to be a rework of several portions of it to really work as the new "Inquisitor", but the mechanical bones and themes IMO aren't too far removed (and seeing as Drifter probably won't happen due to Gunslinger being a thing that's how I could see a Class of its design working in PF2).

Based solely on my experience play testing your excellent Drifter and making a 1e Inquisitor multiple times but never playing, I don't think the two ideas work together, except for maybe the grit cycle. Getting hit to gain Judgement is an interesting idea. Judgement is actually closer to Hunt Pray (pun intended), Strategic Strike, or Divine Smite.

There's currently no dedicated, prepared occult caster, so my money is on the Occultist.

But, the Occultist was nowhere close to a full caster. I suppose they could make them a full caster like the Bard, but I feel that the new tiered casting from Magus and Summoner makes more sense. Then again, the Psychic definitely wouldn't be a prepared caster...

I really hope the book is psychic casting and other stuff from Occult Adventures. I can see a psychic casting archetype similar to the Arcanist style casting archetype introduced in SoM.

Warrior Poet is perfectly balanced and amazingly thematic. Keep in mind that a +2 is not as significant in an Initiative roll because there's no crits. In addition to not allowing for stealth, it also prevents the Drifter from taking other activities. I run a hex crawl game and my Drifter is very conflicted about when to use or not use Warrior Poet. Sometimes doing something else during exploration mode is more beneficial, especially since she has the highest perception modifier.

You may calculate that the DR is OP because the Drifter can withstand X number of attacks, but unless it's a cruel GM specifically targeting the Drifter or completely overwhelming the party with sheer numbers, the Drifter doesn't significantly benefit vs Champion or Barb DR. This is from my experience when actually running a Drifter in my game. Now, maybe at higher levels it starts to break down, but higher levels also starts to include more than just physical damage attacks from enemies.

You're comparing the DR to other classes, but consider this. The Drifter is supposed to be the tank class. You wouldn't complain that Fighters get expert weapon proficiency at level 1 because they're the fighting class. They're supposed to be the best at what they do. Under overwhelming odds, the Drifter surviving and maybe saving a single comrade from total destruction is the exact tone that all the tropes of a Drifter embody. Consider also, that unless truly pressed for time, healing between fights is relatively trivial. My Drifter has invested in medicine, which also fits the tropes of the lone hero bandaging the bystanders before they move on to the next place.

That being said, the dedication should have slower DR progression with a high level feat allowing for the normal progression. Treat the DR as if it were a proficiency.

I know it's been a while, but I'd thought I'd give a bit more feedback on the class. It's absolutely fantastic. We're still at the low levels and the party is pretty combat adverse, only fighting when necessary, but my player is having a ton of fun with the class. Unless some math analysis can show how utterly OP something is, I'd say that once gunslinger releases and you get the gun rules all matched up this would be good enough to ship. Once again, excellent work.

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

What I would like to see is a bunch of feats, abilities, and game features built around making reloading more fun.

Like, what if you could do more stuff while reloading?

Baseline (no feats or class features required):
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

With Features:
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, and Take Cover, or [Drink A Potion, Use Quick Repair, Step, Aid Another, Seek, Sense Motive, Concentrate on a Spell, Stand or Drop Prone]

When you reload, you also gain [+1 dodge bonus to AC, a +1 damage bonus to your next attack, a +1 bonus to will saves, +1 temp hp]

I mean, reloading is never going to be super duper fun times, but it'd be nice we could get creative with it instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

I think reloading for Gunslingers could use this. I'm not certain about giving access to everyone. I think it makes sense to have Gunslingers not need a hand free to reload.

Personally, I was thinking that each Way should have a way to get around reloading. Drifter can have Running Reload as an example.

Well, looks like the Gunslinger was one of the playtest classes (with Inventor being the other), I have to say, neither are butting in on your design space which makes me really glad. I imagine you'll be "stealing" the gun rules and borrowing some gunslinger feats in the mean time? Or perhaps you'll be adjusting the gun path all together?

I'm assuming this is a homebrew campaign or campaign setting? Japan+Spain sounds hella cool.

Yep! My friends and I have been using a homebrew setting since we first started playing Pathfinder just under a decade ago. It's a hodgepodge as anyone can choose to run a game in the setting and there's a ton of stuff going on it. My main setting area is an isolated continent about the size of South America. It hasn't had contact with the other continents and lands for thousands of years. Along with Japan+Spain humans, there's a Mexico-Aztec inspired orcish islands (colonzied by the humans). It has high-tech dwarves who live in large underground megalopolises inspired by modern day Tokyo and Seoul with vast canals and aqueducts inspired by renaissance era German and Dutch farmlands. It's got an African Savannah meets Kansas halfling nation that does lots of trade and agriculture, cursed with forever winter forest elves, sketchy Catholic-esque church run by Pacific NW frontier inspired halflings, religious zealot Russian inspired hobgoblins, Egyptian and Native American Pueblo inspired Nagaji who worship a Pharaoh-Jesus-Hitler analogue (long story) who is prophesied to return, Inca and Maori inspired jungle tribes of beastfolk (crocodile, gorilla, sloth, parrot, frog, turtle, bear), demon magic-tech apocalypse island filled with gnomes, and a whole lot more little groups of peoples and ancestries such as Stonekin, Leshies, Feykin, and Fossilites. This is just the one continent that I am the primary writer and designer for, there's a whole lot of other continents and nations as well. We're hoping to one day release a published module and setting guide for 5e, PF2, and Savage Worlds or whatever popular RPGs would fit the setting at the time of our release.

I will absolutely tell her and we really appreciate you. When I started making this campaign, she had no idea what kind of character she wanted to play other than "not spellcaster" as she was a witch in another campaign I ran that failed to really get off the ground. I mentioned this class back when I was just seeing old discussions about the Drifter and then suddenly discovered you and Cozzymandias had made the class. She instantly decided she wanted to play a Ronin type character.

I figured I'd tell you more about the setting and campaign since you'd seem interested. It's somewhat of a sequel to my last campaign that half the players were in, which I ran in 5e and failed to convert to PF2 before we finished. A ragtag group transported a box across the continent to the Empress Queen of Salsnia, a human nation inspired by renaissance Spain but with a more Japanese style ruling class. Along the way they learned of ten prophesied apocalyptical events, stopped two of them, and caused one of them. The final battle was against a giant creature I had called a Titan but had more similarities to a Tarrasque than PF Titans. I was heavily inspired by Star Wars The Clone Wars' Zillobeast. The final conclusion to this epic battle was the falling of a giant magical city, piloted by one of the players who had to leave the group, that destroyed the Titan although severely damaging the nation of Salsnia. This magical city crashing was the apocalyptical event that the party had caused.

My new campaign takes place inside a less populated region of Salsnia dealing with the effects of the crashing city. Some piece of it has created a barrier trapping the people inside. I'm running it as a hexcrawl as the players go place to trying to figure out what is happening and help the surviving peoples. To put another wrench in the plot, there are time fogs which can dilate time. The players walked through one right at the beginning and jumped forward 12 weeks in the span of an hour.

My player's character is named Fairuza. She's a half-orc with lineage from a noble Salsnian house. She was trained in elite fighting styles using a Double Swordstaff, a polearm that basically has a shortsword on each end and is a variation on the Royal Salsnian weapon of the Swordstaff. She has become an expert not only on the heritage of her human side but also her orcish side. Historically speaking the two groups have not gotten along and she has experience racism in her life in the Salsnia mainland. She took a contract as essentially a samurai but broke it when she realized her employer was trying to start a war between the orcs and the Salsnians. This landed her a 5 year workcamp sentence (as Salsnians don't believe in prison nor do they believe in slavery which workcamps clearly are not either). During transport to the workcamp the city fell and set all of the players free. She's now looking to restore her own honor and establish Salsnia as a land safe for everyone, not just Salsnians.

As I said over on Reddit, playtesting this has been an absolute blast. My player loves it through the roof! It fits in perfectly for my game. Not only does it match up with the homebrew setting (Colonial Spain meets Imperial Japan) it also matches up with the plot of the campaign (post-apocalyptic hexcrawl).

We finally reached level two. My player took Whirling Blade as her class feat. It might be worth noting that we're playing with Free Archetype rules and she took Marshall. Coincidentally this has really made the class feel like a non-zealot Paladin (which works really well for her character and the campaign). The player is loving Return The Favor. She has ADHD so having a powerful reaction to look forward to using has helped her focus during combats. Steely Demeanor has saved her life a couple of times now. The class is perfectly evoking the themes she is looking for. She spent quite a bit of time before deciding to take Whirling Blade, there are quite a few options to choose from.

Well done! Thank you so much!

I'm curious, if the unveiled class is just the Gunslinger and doesn't touch on any of the other themes and approaches, will you continue? Even if the theming is similar, I highly doubt the mechanics will be the same. Perhaps it would be worth it to continue working on it?

I suppose only the reveal and playtest rules will tell.

My feedback as a GM from my session today. My games are rather not combat focused so not a whole ton to give. Grit never really cycled, but that's what happens in short combats. I think my player is enjoying it, still waiting on her feedback. The Warrior Poet ability to Scout seems a bit strange as you move at half speed when scouting, but we've used it quite a bit. As of right now, with a Fighter and Swashbuckler in the party the Drifter is not finding its own thematically. Especially since the Fighter's character seems like more of a Drifter than our Drifter. I'm hoping level 2 class feats will change that quickly.

Feed back from the first session with the Drifter today... Nothing much to report. Session was cut short and everyone was distracted and tired. None of the special Drifter features were really used. My player is super excited to play the class and absolutely loves Warrior Poet, which was used in the combat. I expect to see more experience as everyone learns their character and we get into the swing of things.

Since weapons that typically have the Parry trait still benefit from additional bonus to AC, I had decided to leave it alone.

I'm not following. The Parry action provides a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. If you have Grit you already have a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. Is your intention to make the Parry all but useless to a Drifter unless they have this feat? This can also be applied to characters that are using shields, although that is certainly more reasonable since it doesn't fit the trope. I understand not wanting to make it too powerful, but as an example that isn't Ronin, an Outlaw would probably love using an Exquisite Sword Cane.

Either way, you seem to know what you're doing, just looking for clarification on intentions.

These are all great thank you! I'll make sure my player has that list for feedback handy when we play. Though, you still haven't addressed the concern of Grit and weapons that already have the Parry trait. Thank you so much!

Not sure what your pace is Memyselfishness but I should beat an update before your group reaches six. I can definitely try for an earlier push if you needed the rules for play since I would love any Playtest data you or your player might share!

We're starting at level 1 so I doubt we'll beat you to level 6 before you finish anything.

As for playtest data, what info are you looking for? Obviously you want to know how it actually feels for the class to play but are there any specifics you're interested in knowing. She's planning on taking the Ronin path and might end up using a homebrewed weapon for my setting. Basically just a polearm with parry.

My current rules concern is the circumstance bonus for Grit. It doesn't work with weapons with the party trait. I'd argue that's a pretty big feature of the Ronin character in films, blocking with their sword. As of right now I'm going to ignore the fact that they shouldn't stack and let her have a bonus if she parries, but it's something to consider going forward with future revisions.

I am absolutely loving this. Have you made any updates or changes since early November? One of my players is planning on running with this for a shorter campaign I'll be running.