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I understand. I myself don't see Legolas as Drifter, it wasn't good exmple.
Additionally, after thinking a bit more I understood that the real problem I have is that most of the feats for range combat work only with firearms. There also some feats and abilities as the Outlaw's Dirty Trick which doesn't necessary need to be limited to melee attacks (aside from bows, it opens a space for throw weapons).
And I love Outlaws, I just wanted to open a space for bow using characters who don't take advantage of others weak points. If I will find a bow-user character that could be used as inspiration for a class path I will submit it in the thread.
I understand. I myself don't see Legolas as Drifter, it wasn't good exmple.
Additionally, after thinking a bit more I understood that the real problem I have is that most of the feats for range combat work only with firearms. There also some feats and abilities as the Outlaw's Dirty Trick which doesn't necessary need to be limited to melee attacks (aside from bows, it opens a space for throw weapons).And I love Outlaws, I just wanted to open a space for bow using characters who don't take advantage of others weak points. If I will find a bow-user character that could be used as inspiration for a class path I will submit it in the thread.
And I think that's completely fair. Finding the places where expanding the rulesets to be inclusive is the way to make sure Bows have a seat at the table.
I'll do a pass for "inclusivity" and see what I can figure out. The trick with ranged weapons is the presumed power of distance when applied to special effects. Ranged Reprisal and Point Blank Shot for instance are in some people's minds (and in a way I can see their point) "concept taxes" because the concept has inherent power derived from range.
We'll see what I can come up with. I'll try to make sure Robin Hood non-gun ranged users feel like they have a place to live in the Outlaw area, because the lawless bowman is definitely a trope I can see fitting around there.
Hawkeye would be a Drifter Bow user, I think.
Both versions in fact, but definitely Clint Barton.
Hawkeye would be a Drifter Bow user, I think.
Both versions in fact, but definitely Clint Barton.
I agree, but I see him fitting pretty easily into Outlaw especially after Infinity War/Civil War and even just in general.
After looking at Dirty Trick, I kind of agree. It's a 2 action ability that costs grit that extends duration of one of two conditions (FF and Frightened) which is good but certainly restrictive enough that ranged weapons can be included.
I'm tempted to put a cap on the range, but volley 30ft is pretty restrictive on the Longbow as is and shooting an arrow from a distance to keep them off balance or scare them from a distance is thematically pretty on point.
More than likely to happen next set of updates.
So, just looking at The Drifter on TV Tropes to see if there were any way to mine for ideas for new paths, I noticed the Knight Errant character trope. Maybe you can find some inspiration there? They're a bit more of a Champion character though. In fact, TV Tropes says the Drifter becomes an accidental Knight Errant. You could go for something more literally "knight" and have them get armor bonuses? It seems to me there's a place for a goody-two shoes version of the Outlaw path. Maybe the "No Cause For Alarm" skill feat? Something about success on Return the Favor providing bonuses to allies? Maybe removing conditions like fear? Then again perhaps that's better suited to a feat in the vein of Protecting Parry? Besides, the Champion really does fill this role.
I definitely feel like the Pacifist funtions as the goody-two-shoes of the options.
The No Cause for Alarm Skill Feat to me is just something a Pacifist would likely take (they get Diplomacy for free).
But that said perhaps the "hedge knight" could be fulfilled some regard there.
Though I would argue that the themes of Hedge Knight and Ronin are almost exactly the same except for the armor usage (and tbh, that's pretty optional on both of them).
If you have specific concepts that you feel can't be exemplified, I'm certainly going to entertain those, but it seems like in at least some form the current Class paths can flex into the "hedge knight" and "goody-two-shoes" pieces.
I have gone up to level 12 feats and made some changes, but I don't want to write the update post tonight, so I'll be posting both tomorrow after I've had time to give them a once over.
Happy Gaming all!
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Though I would argue that the themes of Hedge Knight and Ronin are almost exactly the same except for the armor usage (and tbh, that's pretty optional on both of them).
In fact, Paizo specifically said that the Ronin Samurai Oath would be called "Knight Errant" in a different setting, so they agree with you.
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I have free time today, so I am creating a bunch of characters and going to run combats. During character creation I understood how stupid I was: you can play a Ronin with a bow - the none Outlaw archer exists with the current rules and only needs some feats to support it.
Midnightoker, you need to change the name of the Duelist's Challenge feat. The Duelist archetype has a feat with same name.
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Okay, Battle Report:
The level 6 party included an orc ronin drifter, human sorcerer with the angelic bloodline and a ranger. They fought against a Bodak, which didn't rolled well but was able to drain them.
The drifter dealt the most damage. I gave him Iado Stance used spare actions to return its weapons to their place and then draw them back in order to deal additional damage.
Conclusion: I think the class is balanced. I played only with myself and the battle was slow as result, so I can't say how exceiting the class is (I did enjoy creating the character).
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I have free time today, so I am creating a bunch of characters and going to run combats. During character creation I understood how stupid I was: you can play a Ronin with a bow - the none Outlaw archer exists with the current rules and only needs some feats to support it.
Midnightoker, you need to change the name of the Duelist's Challenge feat. The Duelist archetype has a feat with same name.
Apologies, I actually thought the Duelist's Challenge feat in their was the same feat, because that feat was originally a Cozzymandias feat (and it was prior to the APG, which is probably why it looks and acts so much like Antagonize). More than likely, since Antagonize is their, the current one doesn't need to exist.
So instead of renaming the Feat, I'm just going to go ahead and replace it with the Duelist's Challenge Feat the Duelist gets and add the return of grit on opponent defeated or flee.
Feed back from the first session with the Drifter today... Nothing much to report. Session was cut short and everyone was distracted and tired.
We've all been there!
None of the special Drifter features were really used. My player is super excited to play the class and absolutely loves Warrior Poet, which was used in the combat. I expect to see more experience as everyone learns their character and we get into the swing of things.
Hey! Glad to hear Warrior Poet was a big hit, I really love the idea of that Feat on a Drifter and particularly the Ronin.
The level 6 party included an orc ronin drifter, human sorcerer with the angelic bloodline and a ranger. They fought against a Bodak, which didn't rolled well but was able to drain them.
The drifter dealt the most damage. I gave him Iado Stance used spare actions to return its weapons to their place and then draw them back in order to deal additional damage.
Conclusion: I think the class is balanced. I played only with myself and the battle was slow as result, so I can't say how exceiting the class is (I did enjoy creating the character).
I would be curious to hear what occurred that the Ranger was outdamaged.
Not that it is necessarily an issue, there are definitely circumstances and luck that can help that occur, but I would expect them to be "even".
Was the differential in damage substantial? Can you talk a little bit more about the skirmish? Any details are absolutely appreciated
__________________
If either of you want to post builds, I'd love to see what went into the decision making for the builds (time permitting of course!).
I want to say thank you very much to both of you for running some playtests. That kind of feedback is incredibly valuable.
Interesting to note that both of you seemed to go Ronin, which isn't necessarily a surprise but something I want to keep an eye on.
Should be posting an update soon :)
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Updates
General Updates
Deny Advantage - I did a good look at most of the Classes, and the Drifter is really missing some ancillary features. The one that honestly makes the most sense, especially after adding Uncanny Dodge at level 8 Class Feat, was in fact Deny Advantage. Not only is it thematic for a Drifter to have "eyes" in the back of their head, they generally are known for fighting multiple attackers confidently at once. All Drifters gain the Deny Advantage Class Feature at level 3 now.
Uncanny Dodge - Removed as is redundant
Reliable Ally - Was a level 6 Feat, but reduced to a level 4 Feat. The Champion ability it is based on is a level 3 Class feature, so I've staggered the upgrade feats for Reliable Ally (Loyal Ally and Remarkable Ally) to be 2 levels behind the Champion Feats of the same name. It just didn't make sense considering Weapon runes and ACs are so dependent on level. I really like the "steed" aspect of the feat and the "reliable weapon" concept, so I wanted to find a way to keep them and not overbudget. This is where I landed.
Lasting Impact - I mentioned it prior, but I ultimately felt like this feat missed it's mark as the "Pacifist" Discharge feat and it overlapped with the benefits of Honed Technique in a non-intuitive way. Lasting Impact has the same trigger (successful maneuver) and Discharge but now reads as follows:
"Deal damage to the target of your maneuver as if you landed an unarmed Strike with the same degree of success as the triggering action. This does not increase your multiple attack penalty.
If you possess Honed Technique, increase the number of damage die rolled by 1."
This basically means that if a Pacifist Drifter goes for a Maneuver and succeeds (which grants grit to pacifists) they can immediately deal damage as part of that maneuver if they expend their grit as a reaction (so back to no grit).
In essence, it fills the same theme, but provides a more meaningful benefit so that if a Drifter is choosing to do maneuvers (which are costly on MAP and damage) they are at least getting a slight return on damage if they spend Grit.
Overall I'm comfortable with this, because Pacifist to me is the one with the least amount of damage options.
Untraceable - 10 - This was the upgrade to Trackless Movement that Cozzymandias included before, and I think thematically it makes sense for Drifter's to be able to cover their tracks almost magically (Kenshin Himora and Vash the Stampede come to mind).
Cheat Death - 12 - They get the Swashbuckler Feat of the same name because the original Gunslinger got it and honestly it just makes sense for them to have this.
Duelist's Challenge - 4 - Changed effects to be of the feat of the same name since the original Feat was written before Antagonize existed and very much functions like Antagonize.
Penetrating Shot -10 - Full Metal Jacket was the name of the original Feat and it worked a little differently than I'd care to do (and only for Guns). This version actually more closely mirrors the Ranger Feat (they are nearly identical).
The way it was written for Ranger required a Hunted Prey, so this Feat is a Discharge Feat. However, if the attack hits both targets you do not discharge grit.
Rub Some Dirt on It - 10 - This Feat allows the Drifter to ignore persistant damage for their turn if they forgo making the Flat Check (thus post-poning the damage). If they have grit, they can instead choose to automatically succeed at the Flat check for one of their ongoing persistent damage effects by discharging grit. I feel like this is a very Drifter thing. Post-poning Bleed damage in particular is something I felt deserved a little representation. Overall, I'm okay with where this landed, and the theme I feel is on point, but curious how it operates as a 10th level feat.
Loyal Ally - 8 - The upgrade feat to Reliable Ally. It has comparable effects to the Level 6 champion Feats.
Close and Personal - 10 - The No Escape/Attack of Opportunity for the Drifter as it allows you to follow and make a Strike. It is a Discharge ability.
Grit Warden - 10 - While you have grit, adjacent allies gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC
Guarded Stance - 10 - The high level stance counterpart of Buckler Dance, functions almost identically but with the Parry action instead and has the Exceptional Parry prerequisite.
Imposing Hustle - 12 - Requires Walking Tall and allows Striding half-speed as well as Step as an action and provides Return the Favor defensive benefits to your ally even on a failure.
Remarkable Ally - 12 - Upgraded the Feat tree once again for this, again similar benefits to the Champion 10 abilities.
Okay, so to start, this took longer to do than I expected, but I'm pretty okay about where things landed.
The level 12 Feats are not done, there were just enough changes that I made at this point that I felt like posting an update (particularly the changes to the early level feats and adding Deny Advantage).
I still probably need to go back and proof read this an additional time, but given people are playtesting and there were early level changes, I wanted to go ahead with this (likely 10/12th level Feats will have some time before they get used).
I appreciate all of you very much and I hope you have a great weekend! Might check in periodicially, but time to spend some much needed time with the wife :)
Player was using guns today - we noticed bullets are a bit inconsistently written with other ammunition. Other ammo price is given in groups of 10, and bulk is usually L per 10. Are bullets different?
Also, I loooooove the new feats, and like that you changed the levels on Ally. Deny Advantage is a good boon too!
Player was using guns today - we noticed bullets are a bit inconsistently written with other ammunition. Other ammo price is given in groups of 10, and bulk is usually L per 10. Are bullets different?
Also, I loooooove the new feats, and like that you changed the levels on Ally. Deny Advantage is a good boon too!
Apologies, just gave this a quick pass, L is indeed the bulk, but I had to make adjustments to the Craft Ammunition Skill Feat (now just gives you 100 bullets each day during prep, which is all the ammunition one should need during their day).
I take it there’s a Gunslinger in your group, or is someone giving the multiclass a go? If it’s the latter, and I know you asked about the MCD, then let me know I’ll try to iron out up to 8th at least
Also, I loooooove the new feats, and like that you changed the levels on Ally. Deny Advantage is a good boon too!
Thanks, both of them felt like the right changes, so good to hear they're working for you.
Expanded Battle Report
Terrain:
An old bath-house. The place was full of water, and most of it was difficult terrain.
Builds:
The Ranger was one hit build, with precision Hunter Edge, the Ranger's AoE and Gravity Weapon (it used vastard sword), but I also gave Soothing Mist.
The Sorcerer was full support, angelic bloodline.
The Drifter was Ronin with kama and longsword. I gave Duelist's Challange (the original feat), Iado Stance and Lightning Draw
Combat: the Bodak suprised them, so the Drifter didn't used Lightning Draw. The Bodak heavly its death gaze. The ranger was up next and then... missed. I understood that my build was useful for only one hit, and it couldn't do much but attacking again with -5 to hit.
The Drifter used Duelist's Challange - and I forgot that the feat works for only 1 round - and attacked. In the following turns the Drifter used its remaining actions to staw its weapons and draw them back, using the Iado Stance benefit.
The combat mostly repeated himself, with the Bodak using its gaze to reduce max HP and heal, but it missed with almost any other attack. The Drifter dealt a lot of damage due to Iado Stance and the Bodak low mobility, and the Ranger's missed. A lot.
Currently the character is just using a gun, but plans to prooobably go in to the MC. May not be able to do it til 6 just because of his attribute spread, though. Investigators!
Terrain:
An old bath-house. The place was full of water, and most of it was difficult terrain.Builds:
The Ranger was one hit build, with precision Hunter Edge, the Ranger's AoE and Gravity Weapon (it used vastard sword), but I also gave Soothing Mist.The Sorcerer was full support, angelic bloodline.
The Drifter was Ronin with kama and longsword. I gave Duelist's Challange (the original feat), Iado Stance and Lightning Draw
Combat: the Bodak suprised them, so the Drifter didn't used Lightning Draw. The Bodak heavly its death gaze. The ranger was up next and then... missed. I understood that my build was useful for only one hit, and it couldn't do much but attacking again with -5 to hit.
The Drifter used Duelist's Challange - and I forgot that the feat works for only 1 round - and attacked. In the following turns the Drifter used its remaining actions to staw its weapons and draw them back, using the Iado Stance benefit.
The combat mostly repeated himself, with the Bodak using its gaze to reduce max HP and heal, but it missed with almost any other attack. The Drifter dealt a lot of damage due to Iado Stance and the Bodak low mobility, and the Ranger's missed. A lot.
This encounter sounds really awesome. Thanks for the details.
On the Feat selection, I believe you are a Class Feat down at the moment unless you didn't list one.
On the Iado stance, were you drawing both weapons? And how often are you applying the damage? If you could tell me the cycle here that might help. I realize it isn't actually written to deal with two-weapons being wielded very well (theoretically you could keep sheathing the weapon you're not using for the Strikes).
I might clear up the language. The intent is definitely "one extra weapon die the first strike after you draw your weapon per turn per weapon" but it was tough to nail down the syntax.
Currently the character is just using a gun, but plans to prooobably go in to the MC. May not be able to do it til 6 just because of his attribute spread, though. Investigators!
What an awesome combination! I will add at least the level 4s next pass.
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The Drifter (the missing feat is Quick Draw) routine:
Stride (or advance for next step), draw for free the longsword, Strike with it, Strike with the kama or return the longsword for next turn.
The Drifter (the missing feat is Quick Draw) routine:
Stride (or advance for next step), draw for free the longsword, Strike with it, Strike with the kama or return the longsword for next turn.
Ah makes sense. Thanks for the tidbit!
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Battle Report: Laredo, Umbral Gnome Outlaw Drifter 4
AC 21/22(g); Fort +9; Ref +9; Will +9
HP 52. Stride 25'; CN, Small.
Feats/Item bonus +2 to initiative, +1 to survival, +1 intimidate/+2 to Demoralize
Physical Resist 3 when Gritty; Deny Advantage lvl 4
+1 Gnome Flickmace +10 1d8+3 b (reach)/+1 shortsword +10 1d6+3 p/s (agile)
Ray of Frost +9 2d4+3
Str +3, Dex +1, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha +3
Trained: Athletics, Thievery, Stealth, Games Lore, Survival, Medicine, Deception, Primal Innate Cantrip.
Expert: Intimidation
Demon Mask, Coyote Cloak, Glamourous Buckler, 5 elixirs of life, 34 cp
Magic items reflect midpoint of adventure.
Ran this dude through Menace Under Otari as a solo challenge. Steely Demeanor and Deny Advantage saved my butt pretty handedly, especially against the skeletons. Little jerks rolled max damage for every strike.
Meanwhile I got several crits against the kobolds, thanks to judicious use of "You're Next", and so they all fell like dominos.
Battle Report: Laredo, Umbral Gnome Outlaw Drifter 4
** spoiler omitted **Ran this dude through Menace Under Otari as a solo challenge. Steely Demeanor and Deny Advantage saved my butt pretty handedly, especially against the skeletons. Little jerks rolled max damage for every strike.
Meanwhile I got several crits against the kobolds, thanks to judicious use of "You're Next", and so they all fell like dominos.
Ayyyyy that's some tasty looking stuff!
The buckler isn't too surprising but certainly an interesting pick (seems like that sets you up to use grit a bit more liberally).
That's a pretty diverse character concept too with Flickmace and a Cantrip making an appearance. Any other insights you'd like to share? I've seen that build pretty commonly on Champions too, was this to see how it differed on a Drifter?
EDIT: Just realized minus the Gnome aspect, this might be close to a Trevor Belmont-ish build!
EDIT 2: On another note, I find this encounter interesting because to me this is exactly when the Drifter should shine (outnumbered, focused, and against even/below level enemies). I'm glad that they were able to achieve success, because in my mind the Class is designed to handle these circumstances (IMO) better than other classes.
The buckler was pretty useful, even without the shield block reaction, as when I was outnumbered it let me keep my AC to where I needed it (basically forced most creatures to hit 15+, sometimes 19+, to hit me).
As I had no allies, I actually didn't discharge at all, so I pretty much stayed in Grit. I picked up Dirty Trick but never used it because I kept using my third action to keep my shield up. I think I'll rebuild him as a Ronin before I send him through "Trouble in Otari". Especially with how often I could have stepped then used the flickmace's reach to hit enemies I was in melee with. I'll give up the shield, but gain the shortsword to use for agile attacks, so worth it.
I really wanted to have an AoO. A discharge version of AoO might not be a bad addition, though I'm honestly not sure how much use it would get, given it would directly compete against Return the Favor.
I picked up the Ray of Frost for a longer ranged attack. Electric Arc might have worked too, especially given the close quarters (negating all but 1 use of the RoF's range) and number of multi-kobold fights. Since I was investing in Cha anyways for Deception and Intimidate, the cantrip hit pretty decently as well.
Midnightoker, do you think about opening Long Shot to not firearms proficent characters? I think it could be a good feat to them as well.
Midnightoker, do you think about opening Long Shot to not firearms proficent characters? I think it could be a good feat to them as well.
I agree. Will add it to the next pass.
I really wanted to have an AoO. A discharge version of AoO might not be a bad addition, though I'm honestly not sure how much use it would get, given it would directly compete against Return the Favor.
I did drop in an AoO-ish at level 10 called Close and Personal, but it does come online a bit later than other Classes AoOs.
Ranger gets an AoO version against Hunted Prey and the Fighter MCD can grab AoO at level 4, so I am thinking of maybe doing a grit expenditure AoO option at Level 4.
With that said, as you mention, it would be competing with RtF pretty frequently, but then again, not necessarily a terrible thing.
Food for thought.
I keep forgetting to mention, but also the table has Eagle Eyes in the wrong level. It shows as level 5, but the descriptions show level 9 (which seems correct, given rangers, rogues, and investigators all get master perception at level 7).
I keep forgetting to mention, but also the table has Eagle Eyes in the wrong level. It shows as level 5, but the descriptions show level 9 (which seems correct, given rangers, rogues, and investigators all get master perception at level 7).
Nice spot. 9 is correct, I'll adjust. To be honest that table is off in lots of places and doesn't have up to 12 yet so I'll try to give it a look.
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Sadly, due to a pair of unlucky rolls against a Basilisk, Laredo is, um, retired. But it was a fun exercise.
I had a difficult time picking out feats despite the number you have. Partly that was due to my unusual playstyle, but also some I was curious how I could fit them into a build. The parry ones especially stood out; given I was dual wielding I was probably best placed to pick them up, but I couldn't justify spending the actions, and I preferred a shortsword over a parry weapon. You're Next saw a LOT of use for me, but I'm not sure how typical that would be. Dirty Trick I only used for a fight. Would have been two fights, but the basilisk killed me on its first round, so...
On the other hand, all of the level 4 feats are fantastic.
As I said, I may try it again; perhaps with a Bo staff this time (which, oddly enough, I actually know how to use defensively in reality, so that would be a thing).
Sadly, due to a pair of unlucky rolls against a Basilisk, Laredo is, um, retired. But it was a fun exercise.
I had a difficult time picking out feats despite the number you have. Partly that was due to my unusual playstyle, but also some I was curious how I could fit them into a build. The parry ones especially stood out; given I was dual wielding I was probably best placed to pick them up, but I couldn't justify spending the actions, and I preferred a shortsword over a parry weapon. You're Next saw a LOT of use for me, but I'm not sure how typical that would be. Dirty Trick I only used for a fight. Would have been two fights, but the basilisk killed me on its first round, so...
On the other hand, all of the level 4 feats are fantastic.
As I said, I may try it again; perhaps with a Bo staff this time (which, oddly enough, I actually know how to use defensively in reality, so that would be a thing).
Interesting! Sorry to hear about Laredo, may the next one that fills their shoes be even more impeccable.
Was Antagonize not on the radar? I would assume your intimidate was decent due to You're Next usage, but I can certainly understand Dirty Trick getting chosen.
I can't add too many more Feats to level 2 since that's the level the Path Discharge Feats come online, so it's going to be fully-loaded so to speak at level 2 with that reason as it is.
Perhaps theirs room for a borrowed Feat at that level, but I'd have to think about what feels like it's "missing". I will say that while I appreciate you staying in Class, I am certainly open to hearing what a Archetyped Drifter looks like as well, so if you grabbed Dual Weapon Warrior, I would be curious to see if you have more success. In general, I feel dual wielders tend to gravitate to needing that archetype.
All that said, would love to see the Bo Staff style in action. That sounds like it could be really cool.
Thanks for all the Playtest feedback!!
EDIT: On interesting note, laying ones life down is honestly a very Drifter thing to do. Wondering if there's something there to explore. Hmm...
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If I'd gotten to 8th or 10th, that was the plan (retraining my 2nd level feat to the dedication, and using 6th and 10th for the archetype).
I considered Antagonize, but I decided most creatures would try to attack me, so the benefits would be minor. This is another situation where if I had an ally, perhaps a frontliner monk while my Drifter hung back at range, might have seen more use. Also possible: a summoner and her eidolon. Actually that combo would be pretty damn awesome; the Eidolon would prevent any enemies attacking its summoner, meaning the Frightened condition wouldn't end. Heck the summoner could spend the entire first round just demoralizing everyone and letting the eidolon play with them.
With the Bo Staff, I'll probably pick up Exceptional parry (traded my shield for a Dusty Rose Aeon Stone to keep my hands free, this would be better), Whirling Blade, and then the Maul archetype. Or if I stay Outlaw for the extra skills, just go straight into Mauling and stay there till 8th. Since I'd restart at 6th, I can simply absorb the dead feat (why the archetype doesn't give you power attack like dual gives you double slice, I cannot figure out).
As far as laying down your life, I'd make use of the Return the Favor. Make it so you can give a massive buff, like resistence to all damage equal to the Drifter's level for 1 round, and then the Drifter does not benefit from Steely Demeanor for 10 minutes (though they still gain grit and can discharge, even Return the Favor, as normal; they themselves simply do not gain the resistence).
As far as laying down your life, I'd make use of the Return the Favor. Make it so you can give a massive buff, like resistence to all damage equal to the Drifter's level for 1 round, and then the Drifter does not benefit from Steely Demeanor for 10 minutes (though they still gain grit and can discharge, even Return the Favor, as normal; they themselves simply do not gain the resistence).
To be honest, I was toying with some scaling benefits to Steely Demeanor in the same vein as Vivacious Speed (Swashbuckler) and Exalt Reactions (Champion) where Steely Demeanor can apply damages appropriately.
In general, I find the current Steely Demeanor suffers from the "can't be any better at level 1" but at the same time "starts to drop off pretty hard at higher level".
A little more survivability at higher level could probably help in both regards instead of introducing a new Feat/ability.
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Hah. I just realized what I'm going to do. I'm going to dual class this with a playtest summoner. Go absolutely nuts with it all. I'll test out firearms while I'm at it.
I'm thinking a Jackalope beast eidolon.
Hah. I just realized what I'm going to do. I'm going to dual class this with a playtest summoner. Go absolutely nuts with it all. I'll test out firearms while I'm at it.
I'm thinking a Jackalope beast eidolon.
Sounds terrifying. I love it.
My feedback as a GM from my session today. My games are rather not combat focused so not a whole ton to give. Grit never really cycled, but that's what happens in short combats. I think my player is enjoying it, still waiting on her feedback. The Warrior Poet ability to Scout seems a bit strange as you move at half speed when scouting, but we've used it quite a bit. As of right now, with a Fighter and Swashbuckler in the party the Drifter is not finding its own thematically. Especially since the Fighter's character seems like more of a Drifter than our Drifter. I'm hoping level 2 class feats will change that quickly.
Interesting for sure.
I will say a Drifter between a Fighter and a Swashbuckler might not stand out as much, especially at first when the classes have a lot less distinction against each other in the full martial space.
Definitely something to think about, if the class isn’t unique enough in feel from the others, that can certainly be an issue.
I’ll look forward to your next update :) thanks for reporting in!
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I runned a 10th level party with Drifter (Gunslinger Dwarf), Swashbuckler (Wit) and Bard (Enigma).
Drifter's Feats: Long Shot, Fan the Hammer, Running Reload, Quick Cover, Coilspring Stance and Penterating Shot.
Grit cycle felt realy good, but I felt that sometimes limited the action routine a bit - however it was worth it because the Discharge (Additionaly, I noticed that you can use Fan the Hammer + Reload and have infinate grit. It is true to most other paths as well). With the Bard's composions and Synthesia and the Swaskbuckler's Unbalancing Finisher I could sometimes easly hit with Fan the Hammer twice and more.
I runned a 10th level party with Drifter (Gunslinger Dwarf), Swashbuckler (Wit) and Bard (Enigma).
Drifter's Feats: Long Shot, Fan the Hammer, Running Reload, Quick Cover, Coilspring Stance and Penterating Shot.
Grit cycle felt realy good, but I felt that sometimes limited the action routine a bit - however it was worth it because the Discharge (Additionaly, I noticed that you can use Fan the Hammer + Reload and have infinate grit. It is true to most other paths as well). With the Bard's composions and Synthesia and the Swaskbuckler's Unbalancing Finisher I could sometimes easly hit with Fan the Hammer twice and more.
Yeah the level 9 "infinite grit" if you have lower level enemies you can hit regularly is kinda what I was hoping to accomplish.
If it feels too good, definitely worth a look, but the Honed Techniques all were meant to allow faster cycling.
I'd be open to letting the action routine wiggle a bit, but honestly the intent there is to not spend grit to open your routine.
So the issue might be that Discharge abilities feel like such a "must use" that there's little incentive not to use them. Or if that the "risk" of losing grit or not having grit is too low.
This may be one of those cases where on or below level enemies lead to always spending grit vs higher level enemies making you want to keep it (less likely to get a return and better defenses).
Against solo bosses of above level, I had wondered if they would struggle.
Any details on the encounter? BTW This build is very thematically on point, so I'm glad to hear it feels good.
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I just noticed the infinite grit cycle and didn't used it in combat - I can't tell how it feels. Furthermore, don't forget that most discharge cost 2 action or a reaction, so usually - at least for the gunslinger - you can't use it in certain terrains because the enemies will move.
The fight was against 2 Nuckelavees and a Night Hag (all of them 9th level monsters). It was a hard encounter (severe difficulty), largely because the terrain, which was full of cover, and since two friends who haven't played TTRPGs before were willing to try an combat encounter. I did explained tactics to them but I tried not to overwhelm (10th level PCs after all).
I gave the drifter and the swashbuckler to my friends and played the bard. They understood the mechanics fast, but the drifter player were to eager to use Discharge, so it didn't maximased grit use, and I myself made a mistake: I should have replaced Coilspring Stance with Walk Tall.
Conclusion: grit is easy to learn, it could be temping to discharge frequently (especially for new players) - but I don't think it is a big problem - and the Drifter feels good. Grit do feels meaningful to have.
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Alright Updates:
General Updates
Chart is now updated to 20th level and abilities listed are on the chart
New Class Specific Level Abilities
Valiant Senses - At 7th level and 13th level the perception bonus from Grit increases by an additional +1 and you retain half that circumstance bonus to perception even when you don't have Grit (similar to Vivacious Speed).
Unspoken Words - This is a new Class ability I introduced due to the way Drifter's generally communicate with people not using their words. In addition to them befriending nomadic tribes better than others in popular culture, they also are able to communicate non-verbally in a lot of ways. This basically opens them up to do some fun interactions that they otherwise couldn't have done at 13th level.
Masterful Technique - In the same vein as Swashbuckler in that it applies a global benefit change to Return the Favor at 17th.
Unbreakable Demeanor - The first draft was missing a Drifter Master DC ability. This does that as well as giving a boost to your defensive capabilities at 19th.
They were also missing Juggernaut, so I granted them that at 19th level instead of Second Skin (since I felt it weird they didn't get Master in Fortitude). This felt warranted because of how late it comes online as well as them not having any major defensive abilities (armor remains at expert).
It may make sense to give them Master in armor instead of Juggernaut, but Grit does function as basically a proficiency boost at level 19 (since the bonus increases to +2).
Changes to Feats
1. Longshot now only requires you be wielding a Ranged weapon instead of a firearm
2. Lasting Impact was changed so that it works as a Strike of a nonlethal weapon you are wielding (so it scales at the rate you invest in your appropriate weapons)
Added Feats
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Existing Feats
Foresee Danger - the Investigator Feat, has been added at 12th level to Drifter. Thematically this makes a lot of sense and it's a powerful defensive action.
See the Unseen - Added as an alternative to the Level 14 Class Feats that are Class path specific
New Feats
All of these Feats allow you to be counted as one of your allies for Return the Favor under the listed circumstances for each respective Class Path (Outlaw, Gunslinger, Pacifist, Ronin in that order):
Dastardly Return - When the triggering creature is flat-footed to you
From the hip - When you have not made an attack against the triggering creature this encounter
Peacemaker - When you have taken lethal damage from a creature that you have not dealt lethal damage to
Whirling Return - When the triggering creature has taken an action with the Move trait this turn
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What's on the horizon
Given the announcement of new Playtest classes that are potentially coming out in January, and one of those classes is highly suspected/anticipated/projected to be in some form the "Drifter"/Gunslinger class, this will be my last major update until they officially announce what those Classes will be.
I have this up to 14th level with feats and have finalized what I would consider to be the "Core" of it.
I am thankful for all of you who worked, playtested, and helped build something not only fun but something I legitimately think is a decent design chasis for what we set out to do.
With all that said, if Paizo announces Classes that are not covering the Class concept covered here (either because it is not exemplifying the same themes or it is just not the Gunslinger/Drifter/etc. at all) I do plan to continue to work on this.
If it does end up being the Drifter/Gunslinger, then I hope we can all use the discussions, ideas, and critiques we have established here during the playtest (and heck, I might even playtest this alongside the "real" one just to see what happens).
I may or may not slap on the last 3 level tiers of Feats, and if I do, I will surely make a post here.
I will continue to monitor, update, and otherwise participate in the discussion of this Class here so long as it is seeing use and those that are using it have feedback/concerns/comments to give.
I wish you all a happy holiday season!
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Needing your class feature just to keep up with other martials in AC seems less fun than being able to keep up with Champion and Monk. (Master in armor would also make more sense than Legendary Perception with a class-given +3, in my book.) A slight AC bonus and noticeable jump in DR does probably help, but it also makes not having Grit at any point a pretty dangerous proposition at the highest levels.
That aside, though, good work. We'll see what the new classes are in a month.
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Needing your class feature just to keep up with other martials in AC seems less fun than being able to keep up with Champion and Monk. (Master in armor would also make more sense than Legendary Perception with a class-given +3, in my book.) A slight AC bonus and noticeable jump in DR does probably help, but it also makes not having Grit at any point a pretty dangerous proposition at the highest levels.
That aside, though, good work. We'll see what the new classes are in a month.
And certainly a good point to make, as this would make Drifter the Perception class instead of Rogues, which is a bit unfair.
I have gone ahead and made this change, because I really agree with you.
That would also put their defensive stats on just south of par with Champion if they have grit, which is pretty much where I wanted them to be.
We shall see!
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I'm curious, if the unveiled class is just the Gunslinger and doesn't touch on any of the other themes and approaches, will you continue? Even if the theming is similar, I highly doubt the mechanics will be the same. Perhaps it would be worth it to continue working on it?
I suppose only the reveal and playtest rules will tell.
Yeah if the themes are of a different nature or they really lean into a different side of the Gunslinger (say like a "technology" class where Guns are only a portion), I am more than likely to continue.
And on top of that, I am likely to canniballize some of Feats/Abilities if it only lightly touches on those themes.
This Class is meant to be the "western" themes Class, so I will only discontinue work here if it is entirely redundant (and even in the case of redundant themes, I may convert mechanics into Feats/Paths for the supposed Class).
TL;DR Fear not those that love what's been built thus far, I am not going anywhere! I will likely only shelf this bad boy if it's hitting the exact themes.
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It was a pleasure to playtest and discuss with you. I hope that this thread will continue in some way even if the Drifter would be presented during the playtest.
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Updates:
General
Some flavor text updates to Feats
New Feats
Existing Feats
Blank Slate 16 - Added at 16th level and considering previous Trackless Movement and themes behind it, made sense (was also in Cozzy's version)
Returning Feats
Don't Fear The Reaper 16 - This is basically a rename of Undying Will by Cozzy, but instead I went ahead and made Die Hard a prerequisite and gave it the dying 6 benefit when the Drifter has grit
In the Nick of Time 18 - Pretty much everyone's favorite flavorful feat made a return in the same capacity. It's been altered to account for the not rolling initiative portion interaction (so you start the encounter with grit as per normal.)
Restructured Feats
Reckless Assault 16 - This is in the same vein as the Barbarian Feat "Reckless Abandon", except that it alters the benefits of your grit with respect to yourself. I like how this one felt because the Drifter coming loose and doing something ferocious is a something I thought needed an outlet
True Grit 20 - Rewritten and changed so that you do not discharge grit if it is the first discharge action taken this turn
Impossible Dodge 20 - Similar to Impossible Technique of the Monk, but altered to be a Discharge feat and automatically downgrades/upgrades the tier of success of the triggering action.
New Feats
Uncanny Demeanor 12 - Allows the halving Steely Demeanor value in exchange for choosing a different damage type when using the Return the Favor reaction.
Unwavering Ally 18 - Added the final "Ally" feat for the Drifter with fitting options that are comparable to what you could expect for this level
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I want to give level 14 a Parry Feat so it's packed with mostly Path specific options and I also will probably add at least a few more feats to 16/18/20 (so far only a few a piece), just figured I'd post this pass since it was done.
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First off, I wanted to say great work! I love the themes you're dealing with and the overall feel and mechanics of the class work well within that narrative while also making a great member of an adventuring party.
I do have the following bits of constructive criticism for you. Bear in mind that I have not had an opportunity to playtest this in an actual game yet (and may not get the chance for a while, as my group is currently in the middle of a playthrough of Extinction Curse), so this is all speculative and/or comparative to other options already available.
1. Currently, Drifter is the only class to achieve master proficiency in all three save categories, let alone legendary in one save and master in the other two. Likewise, no other class gets armor mastery at 15th level. The two classes that get it at 13th level improve to legendary proficiency at 17th. The fighter is the only class outside of those two to get master proficiency before 19th level (at 17th, the same as the other defense focused martials cap out). You may want to consider switching things up a bit to account for that.
2. The custom weapons you included for the ronin path (the Nodachi and Saintie) are honestly a little bit too good. The only comparable weapon in terms of the number of traits for its damage die is the war flail at 1d10 (disarm, sweep, trip) and the traits on the war flail are less advantageous than those of the nodachi and saintie. My suggestion would be to remove one trait each or lower the damage die for the weapons.
3. The focus on parry for so many of the class feats is understandable considering the ronin and pacifist subclasses, but parry weapons are somewhat rare and, as noted above, the custom weapons you added are a bit over the top. My suggestion would be to include phrasing in the Exceptional Parry feat to add the parry trait to specific weapons or actions based on those subclasses.
For the ronin, I'd suggest adding parry to agile/finesse weapons and the uncommon martial weapon to which they gained access via the ronin path.
For the pacifist, I would suggest allowing the parry action regardless of weapon type while they have grit and/or have not dealt lethal damage since the beginning of their last turn.
Regardless of the above steps, you might also consider accounting for the level 19 Unbreakable Demeanor class feature (automatically upgrades Grit's circumstance bonus to AC to 2) in the Exceptional Parry class feat.
4. Consider doing a pass to clean up some of the wording around certain features and feats. For example, consider the wording of the Champion (paladin cause) feature Retributive Strike's trigger "An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you." compared to that of the Drifter's Return the Favor "An ally is the target of a Strike and both are within 20 feet of you". The wording for the Retributive Strike trigger is much clearer in its intent.
5. You specifically have two feats that require wielding a melee weapon in one hand while keeping the other hand free (Combat Grab and Duelist's Challenge). This isn't really a bad thing, but nothing else available in either class features or available class feats really seems focused towards that style of combat.
I want to clarify here that while my feedback may seem like nit-picking, I really do love what you have created and am not trying to diminish that in any way.
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First off, I wanted to say great work! I love the themes you're dealing with and the overall feel and mechanics of the class work well within that narrative while also making a great member of an adventuring party.
I do have the following bits of constructive criticism for you. Bear in mind that I have not had an opportunity to playtest this in an actual game yet (and may not get the chance for a while, as my group is currently in the middle of a playthrough of Extinction Curse), so this is all speculative and/or comparative to other options already available.
1. Currently, Drifter is the only class to achieve master proficiency in all three save categories, let alone legendary in one save and master in the other two. Likewise, no other class gets armor mastery at 15th level. The two classes that get it at 13th level improve to legendary proficiency at 17th. The fighter is the only class outside of those two to get master proficiency before 19th level (at 17th, the same as the other defense focused martials cap out). You may want to consider switching things up a bit to account for that.
2. The custom weapons you included for the ronin path (the Nodachi and Saintie) are honestly a little bit too good. The only comparable weapon in terms of the number of traits for its damage die is the war flail at 1d10 (disarm, sweep, trip) and the traits on the war flail are less advantageous than those of the nodachi and saintie. My suggestion would be to remove one trait each or lower the damage die for the weapons.
3. The focus on parry for so many of the class feats is understandable considering the ronin and pacifist subclasses, but parry weapons are somewhat rare and, as noted above, the custom weapons you added are a bit over the top. My suggestion would be to include phrasing in the Exceptional Parry feat to add the parry trait to specific weapons or actions based on those subclasses.
For the ronin, I'd suggest adding parry to agile/finesse weapons and the uncommon martial weapon to which they...
Rest assured I take the feedback with good spirit!
On high level structure of saves and armor, you may have a point. I will give that another pass.
On the parry side, I could see dropping the Parry from nodachi for sure, but the Sainti is actually a parry Weapon so I’d have to adjust that another way to be earnest to its original intent.
I will point out they are uncommon, which I know doesn’t mean stronger but does give me more room to work than say the War Flail, and id argue sweep and trip are great traits.
Now that said I might just introduce the katana sheath as a blunt non lethal parry weapon and drop parry from nodachi (which has different themes than parry anyways)
I will try to give this a path soon, I definitely feel like you raise some excellent points! Thanks for helping and I’ll be sure to add you to the contributions next pass :)
Happy Holidays everyone!
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Updates: Buffs, Nerfs, and Shaking a few things up
General Updates
Juggernaut removed - As pointed out by another, getting all master saves is too good for Drifter and has been removed
Improved Unshakeable lowered from 17th to 15th - After evaluating other class structures a little more closely, most of the classes get their legendary save at 15th and only get the single Class specific ability at 17th. Moving this from 17th to 15th just made sense.
Armor Mastery removed from 15th - I literally have no idea what I was thinking here. I have removed from 15th and created a Drifter specific Armor increase for 19th level (which is consistent with other martial classes)
Worn and Torn - New - Second Skin didn't make a lot of sense for Drifter because they aren't necessarily even known for wearing armor all that often. I also felt as the "parallel of Swashbuckler to Fighter but for Champion" they needed something that set them a part defensively. I came up with the following:
"Your armor has and you take beatings together. Your proficiency ranks for light armor, medium armor, and unarmored defense increase to master. While you have grit, you gain your armors specialization effect even if the armor is not medium or heavy armor. If you are wearing an armor whose armor group does not have an armor specialization effect, instead increase your Steely Demeanor resistance by 2 + the value of its potency rune."
This felt thematic for the unarmored samurai and the light armored outlaws to get some kind of defensive benefit. It also only applies while they have grit, which makes me feel okay about applying Armor Specialization effects (since this would only be the 3rd class to get it).
Weapons Changes
Nodachi - Dropped the parry trait entirely
Saintie - Dropped the Trip trait entirely, dropped the die from 1d10 to 1d8 (retains Deadly 1d10, Parry, and Uncommon as a 2-handed weapon)
Katana Sheath added - Weaker than exquisite sword cane but reasonably so as Katana is a stronger weapon than Sword Cane. Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Parry one-handed 1d4 B Uncommon weapon. This allows Samurai to use the Katana in one hand with the Sheath in the other, and then allowing them to discard the sheath to main-hand the Katana as a 2H weapon.
Exceptional Parry - Major rewrite
Serial Loafer made an interesting suggestion that ultimately I felt was the right way to handle the parry situation (and this also really opens up Outlaw/Pacifist/Gunslinger to participate)
It now reads as the following:
"
Exceptional Parry 1 action
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Blocking moves comes naturally. If currently have
grit and you are benefiting from the Parry action, the circumstance bonus to AC from your Parry is +2 instead of +1. You also add the Parry trait to the following weapons based on your chosen path:
[b]Gunslinger weapons attached to a weapon of the Firearm group
Outlaw weapons with the concealed trait
Ronin uncommon martial weapons you gained from the Ronin path
Pacifist weapons with the nonlethal trait"
I like this better than the previous version, but it lost "if your opponent misses a Strike against you, you regain grit" portion.
I almost potentially want to add that back if you're using a weapon that already has the parry trait, so there is incentives to grab an actual Parry weapon instead of just the one supported by your class.
Language
I updated the language for Return the Favor and will probably be doing a language pass over most of my triggers and for flavor text as well.
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Hoping to go back and add a few more Feats to the upper levels soon.
Happy Holidays!
Updates
Okay so no major changes to Class structure, just cleaned up some language and added new feats:
Gritty Parry - 14 - Now grants you your grit benefits when you take the Parry action even if you didn't have grit. Also has the nice little bonus feature that Exceptional Parry lost in that you gain grit if you are the target of an unsuccessful attack while benefiting from Parry.
I felt this worked in that it allowed a way for a Drifter to sort of "wait" and then become gritty while still feeling fully protected. The theme of "responding just before your opponent" felt like a good way to finish off the Parry line.
Something's Off - 16 - Grants roll twice and use better result on Will Saves against effects with the Illusion or Enchantment traits or Perception checks to Seek. In addition, you can discharge grit to attempt to counteract one ongoing effect with the mental trait.
I felt this was appropriate because of all the times Drifter's are the ones who just sort of know something is off. Batman does this when he gets trapped in the Riddler's dream world, noticing the guy has a hidden knife, Kenshin figuring out the Han'nya with his Striped arms, etc.
Chosen Ward - 18 - Daily preparations, select an ally, and as long as they are within line of sight, they gain your grit benefits whenever you also have grit.
Drifter's when they find someone they must protect keeping them safe at all costs and in their sight. Felt this made sense considering how good Drifter's are at protecting (in particular) a single individual particularly well.
All for One - 20 - A discharge action with Antagonize as a prerequisite that allows a Demoralize against all enemies within 30 feet. If a frightened enemy attempts to take a hostile action against you, you immediately gain grit.
This was a play on "One for All" swashbuckler feat, but sort of the inverse. Everyone wants to feel like the bad guy magnet at some point, and at level 20 despite hating taunt mechanics, this feels like it fits (especially with Antagonize as a prerequisite).
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That gives this Class enough Class Feats to feel like a relatively full Class, though I'm sure I will be adding more as I continue to binge Drifter Pop-culture (seriously I'm now trapsing through everything from Quigley Down Under, Mandalorian, Trigun, and everything in between).
Wanted to get it to a relatively complete state before the announcement on the 5th so we could at least say there was a full fledged Class before the Playtest potentially drops the "real deal".
I will also be posting this to Reddit to see if anyone there can use it.
Happy Gaming and Happy almost New Year!
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As I said over on Reddit, playtesting this has been an absolute blast. My player loves it through the roof! It fits in perfectly for my game. Not only does it match up with the homebrew setting (Colonial Spain meets Imperial Japan) it also matches up with the plot of the campaign (post-apocalyptic hexcrawl).
And this is really the best. I'm so happy.
We finally reached level two. My player took Whirling Blade as her class feat. It might be worth noting that we're playing with Free Archetype rules and she took Marshall. Coincidentally this has really made the class feel like a non-zealot Paladin (which works really well for her character and the campaign).
I f***ing love this. That's such a cool character concept!!!
The player is loving Return The Favor. She has ADHD so having a powerful reaction to look forward to using has helped her focus during combats. Steely Demeanor has saved her life a couple of times now. The class is perfectly evoking the themes she is looking for. She spent quite a bit of time before deciding to take Whirling Blade, there are quite a few options to choose from.
Well done! Thank you so much!
I spent all day watching the emotional ending of Season 2 of Mandalorian repeatedly, so I'm already kinda on the edge, but really got me in the feels.
The fact that something we all built made someone have a good time... nothing beats that.
Tell your player I appreciate her very much! She's what it's all about.