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Been lurking and reading feedback and it dawned on me that there's another glaring element here nagging at the back of my mind - How is it that a class focused on defensive capabilities and protecting others is just generally SO sub-par against magic? And while we're at it, how come he's *TERRIBLE* at noticing potential threats?!? A lot of his abilities require him be aware of the threat... and yet he's objectively bad at it compared to a fighter, who is one of the most canny "battlefield surveyor"s around?! Physical threats are far from the only threats, and yet all the guardian's abilities seem geared towards only protecting against the physical. There's barely lip-service in the form of single-energy-type-resistance feats that take investment to achieve, and that leaves a huge gap in your so-called bodyguard's capabilities. It takes until extremely high level to make the class have anything unique at all in defending against mind affecting and compulsion effects. The guardian pays a HEAVY price in offensive capability, it feels to me like they should be the best defensive unit in all categories, not just physical. And please correct the perceptiveness oversight, this seems objectively counter to the theming of the class and it makes ZERO sense that generic-fighter-lad is better at perceiving threats than the dedicated bodyguard.
Threat technique probably shouldn’t be a choice. It should just be both. That way you feel like you win regardless of what the enemy does. I like this thought, but I agree with Oceanshield that the Guardian class needs internal differentiation *badly* and this only makes that issue worse.
I don't know whether we need more threat techniques or not - do more damage or mitigate more harm seems like the binary I'd expect on that - but they DO need advancement. I'd like to see some class features at higher levels that do more with it - like exalt/smite/etc on Champion. I'd also like to see ANY of the class feats care about which technique you're built into.
Except Bravery. And Battlefield Surveyor. And accelerated damage boosts from weapon spec. And action compression from extremely powerful and highly unique class feats. And the ability to swap those feats on-the-fly in "Flexibility" slots. But do go on about how the fighter doesn't offer anything unique.
I wish there was a way to blend the two: Order my subscriptions thru my FLGS and still get the PDF.This has long been a goal of many, many parties, including FLGSes and Paizo. To date, we haven't found a solution that works for everyone, but we're always looking into new technologies or systems to explore in this regard. Take a page from the console game industry and package a one time use code with your physical books. First person to buy the book can use the code to download the PDF from the shop for free.
You'll still use the ability modifier appropriate to the class granting you access to the tradition and spells. But the proficiency number added to the ability mod will be constant for all the spells you cast.I also hope this is how it is meant to be, it just means that multicasting archetypes just work so much easier now. Which is either a lovely boost or one terrifyuing hishap waiting to happen.All casters now gain access to a specific tradition from their class but have a unified spell attack and spell DC. This isn't a typo but rather a reflection of the new standard for spellcasters across the game. I think this change is good for the game design, but has any thought been out into the negative impact this has on halcyon speaker archetype? Probably too niche to matter, but this is one primary benefit of that archetype (which gets a significant spotlight due to a popular AP). With this change, it will be difficult to justify the lag halcyon gets vs a basic multi class.
100% for medium and heavy armor still means one third of the feat doesn't work. And that build wouldn't necessarily need to be niche as you can use most of the feats and light armor wouldn't force you to give up movement speed. Out of the 13 feats besides the dedication you only need to be wearing medium or heavy armor for 3 of them. So yes I would certainly think it needs a correctionNot really. It's 100% effective for Medium and Heavy armors, it's just not a valid use case for light armor at the moment, which is not really a thing pre-remaster anyway. Every character that takes it, will be making full use of it and getting full effect, and a VAST majority of characters taking the archetype will not be light armor users anyway. A light armor stalwart defender feels like an incredibly niche build that doesn't really require errata to support.Not a thing right now. Might be a thing in the remaster, though. Always felt weird that fighters and champions in light armor can't use one of their class features.Then we need an errata because it's a feat that is available right now, that is only 2/3 effective I'll take your word for it on the 3/13... and nothing about this feat stops you from continuing to take advantage of those feats. In fact, there's even an equal level feat that works fine with light armor, there for the taking. Nothing about this is unusable or nonfunctional in the current system, and it's likely language designed to support ADDING new function in the remaster. You want errata? "You gain the armor specialization effects of all armors you are proficient in that provide such bonuses". There. No mention of light armor spec that doesn't exist. Enjoy ;-) Honestly I suspect the real cause for this is so they can add spec effects for light armor in the remaster, or to future proof options later. Complaining about it not granting an effect for light armor users feels a lot like complaining about Seasoned not giving its full effect if you don't have cooking lore. If you don't have cooking lore... and don't value the bonus in the other areas it DOES provide a bonus... don't take seasoned.
Not a thing right now. Might be a thing in the remaster, though. Always felt weird that fighters and champions in light armor can't use one of their class features.Then we need an errata because it's a feat that is available right now, that is only 2/3 effective Not really. It's 100% effective for Medium and Heavy armors, it's just not a valid use case for light armor at the moment, which is not really a thing pre-remaster anyway. Every character that takes it, will be making full use of it and getting full effect, and a VAST majority of characters taking the archetype will not be light armor users anyway. A light armor stalwart defender feels like an incredibly niche build that doesn't really require errata to support.
I would love to see continued expansion/depth into improving blasts - either the way you describe or in other new and creative ways. I don't think additional damage types to your blasts is sufficient reason to discourage forking the gate, and honestly it feels like even with all the support in the initial toolkit there might need to be MORE incentive to stay single gate. The toolkits of the individual elements are sufficiently focused that it will definitely start to chafe at mid/high levels.
Oh, what sort of build did you have with hardwood armor? Hopefully this isn't derailing the thread, just curious for your play experience with a wood character.In my experience it was situational. While I had the shield from hardwood armor, I was frequently not in a position where I was likely to get attacked (enemies had to move up to me, or the Champion was in the way, etc). In those circumstances I was very glad to pile on an extra +4 damage - especially when the enemy was 90' away so I wasn't getting my strength (I was even more glad when it crit, becoming +8 at 90').You probably want one two action blast and one single blast rather than three anyway. I didn't really think of him as a "wood" kineticist. My build was Fire/wood human with versatile blast + weapon infusion. 1st level infusions were Hardwood armor + Flying Flame to create a flexible build that allowed me to be present in any section of the battlefield effectively. His primary focus was throwing out blasts, given the low level. I think just as influential were the other members of the party, because by nature of the build I was able to position myself as needed. We had a champion, a monk, an investigator (ranged), and a Psychic, so we had a couple of frontliners and a couple of ranged that allowed me the flexibility to "switch hit" based on the enemy team composition and positioning.
You probably want one two action blast and one single blast rather than three anyway. In my experience it was situational. While I had the shield from hardwood armor, I was frequently not in a position where I was likely to get attacked (enemies had to move up to me, or the Champion was in the way, etc). In those circumstances I was very glad to pile on an extra +4 damage - especially when the enemy was 90' away so I wasn't getting my strength (I was even more glad when it crit, becoming +8 at 90').
You probably want one two action blast and one single blast rather than three anyway. Speaking from experience at the table, this is definitely true. the extra +4 to damage on the first blast far outweighs the -8 third attack, and if you include backswing on the first blast (if you didn't need to channel), your second attack is effectively -3 if you missed on that first.
Just extremely precise control. For tremors, the earth just happens to level-out as the ally takes each step, or the wood tumbles in just such a way as to roll *over* or *around* the ally in motion.
In practice in terms of versatility the worse are Earth and Metal because have one less non-physical damage type. Wood could be considered the second worse but Vitality damage is pretty useful vs high-level undead creatures that usually get some vitality weakness. The aura does dissipate when you use an impulse with the overflow trait, but an infusion is not an impulse, nor is it overflow. An infusion is like a metamagic for impulses. Your blast also does not have an overflow trait, so your aura isn't really a factor here. You *can* use an infusion "for the entire round" because it's a free action - so you can use it before every blast, on each blast, but you can only use one and you can only use that one once per blast (no Agile + thrown traits for example).
Also it's stupid good even if it didn't vary your types. Some dude 200 feet off? Turn your element into a longbow with a range INCRIMENT of 100 (volley 30). Want to do a glibbidybillion damage but your enemy is up a 20 foot cliff? Turn your blast into a throwing dagger, letting you add your full strength and con bonus to damage.It's in no way useless. It gives it 1-2 options it didn't have before, plus a weapon trait.Yes, which is completely useless if your Blast already deals physical damage...4) Have a feat that give your Blast the Modular (B, P, S) trait. Seriously, make it LESS confusing, and for Fire, if people ask, you can cut and stab stuff with a blowtorch and the concept of "hard light" can apply to Fire. FWIW this proved out in low level play at Gencon. I played a level 1 fire/wood kin with weapon infusion and was regularly throwing 1d8+6 blasts and when we encountered an enemy that was about 90' from the party, I crit a 1d8+4 blast into 2d8+8 while the rest of the party was still trying to close the gap. The versatility of weapon infusion is super real and I never had to take a move action to get in range, so a common turn was 2-action blast with either thrown or backswing, then a 1 action blast with either thrown/agile depending on melee vs. range and it was very efficient damage output. The other thing that was theorycrafted and played out is he's either mediocre (str/dex skills) or absolutely terrible (everything else) at any skill check :D It was pretty fun roleplay.
They're a spellcaster that "plays like" a martial. Just like the fighter has feats to give them action options, the kin does as well - the kins are just more magical in affect (healing, using sand to grapple instead of athletics, etc). I'd argue the magus is a martial that "plays like" a spellcaster too (spell selection etc).
Two per, Metal has Ferrumnestra and Laudinmo. Ferrumnestra: The Lady of Rust is a giantWho are they? What are their personalities? Is there two per wood and metal or are they singular lords?Does the planes of wood or metal have elemental lords?Yep. Freeing them was a big part of what made those planes visible and available again. not a thing, just non-binary is how I read it.
Why do you feel barb will be left out in the rain? I think there's a lot of opportunity here, since con as a secondary stat works pretty well with Barb. I'm equally certain that a 10' aura will work very well on a primarily melee character somewhere in there...
Hello everyone! Based on what little we have, a kineticist who wanted to hit the front lines hard, would better Sentinel or Champion? Thinking about Dexterity, is it possible to make a frontline that deals damage, as good as the ones mentioned? I was thinking of an armored dwarf using the earth, but the more "agile" characters from The Legend of Aang keep circling in my head... We don't know enough yet unfortunately. General consensus is a melee kineticist will be difficult, but we haven't seen any of the earth or metal information yet and those would be the most likely to fit that goal. I'm hoping a dwarven metal kineticist is melee viable, and planning to use stalwart defender archetype to solve the armor issue if the class doesn't handle it by itself.
The reaction you can get from water level 1 is very close to what you're suggesting. Very curious what it's junction/specialty ability will be though. The air movement one seems incredible.
Metal and Earth should have impulses that just give you armor with its own stats IMO, same idea as the ancestries with extra tough scales that function like breastplate. I honestly can't envision a scenario where metal isn't given some way to get heavy armor proficiency or an equivalent. Wrapping yourself in metal armor is one of the first thoughts anyone could have. It's impossible the design team missed such a thing.
Also - I don't think martial kineticists are going to be very viable. I'd love to be wrong, though. The squish is a concern for sure. I was planning on stalwart defender with unburdened iron to get heavy armor by 4.
Also - I don't think martial kineticists are going to be very viable. I'd love to be wrong, though. I'm thinking about making a martial Kineticist, what's giving you this impression? Clarification: a MELEE kineticist. Still no manufactured weapon. Thinking metal element should be most interesting for it.
I think there's plenty of physical resistance out there, but a lot of things with physical resistance have a special material weakness to compensate, at least from the limited amount I experienced in Abom Vaults. Like I said, don't think it'll be as bad as fire but not having one physical/one energy is definitely a limiter for metal that the other elements don't have to be concerned with at all.
100% I think you're correct here that they'll have a solid answer built in, we just disagree in our speculation on how it gets solved. My suspicion is the "fix" Paizo designs in for single-focus-fire kineticists will be "remove fire immunity/reduce fire resistance" rather than just switching damage types. We've already seen one element of it in the spoiled aura upgrade. It'll be more in-theme for that element and allow a real pyromancer "BURN IT HARD" feel. Unfortunately I suspect the immunity removal to also be high level, which still leaves a problem until it becomes available. All speculation of course.
Metal arguably has this issue to a lesser extent since both it's damage types are physical. From what we've heard though, I suspect there will be electrical impulses immediately available, unlike fire which is less likely to have innate access to another damage type.
But we do have spellcasters getting legendary and their archetypes giving master, and Kineticist impulses are specifically modeled after spells. +...4?
This feels like a pretty doom-and-gloom view considering the 1e version AND the 2e playtest were d8 HD AND the playtest got light armor mastery. The class is going to have the highest con available so is roughly equivalent to a minimum of a beefy d10 class before you put any significant effort at all into it. Will be happy to be generous in sharing class details when my PDF arrives :D
Very hyped for the new metal element. Can't wait to play a dwarven metal kineticist. I'm still considering whether to mix some fire in there and go full forge-smith stereotype and feel like it's gonna depend on how delicious the metal junction is. With the recently spoiled option to add Con + Str to melee kineticist strikes but switch to ranged at-will for only the cost of str in that equation (or even go to 1 action at only the cost of con!) I see a lot of versatility in getting damage "on the board" no matter what the circumstances the kineticist finds themselves in are. I'm also hoping to see the metal element follow the general analysis of the blog post and give a moderate amount of mobility and trickery for a very versatile or dynamic melee kineticist build. To delve into a bit of speculative territory: the above versatility of attack form, combined with the speculative mobility/trickery options, might result in an overall level of damage output that I think will be competitive with martials without overshadowing them. I don't see competing for single-hit numbers from a fighter or giant barbarian, nor competing with flurry rangers when they get to "unload" their full attacks, but I believe the ability to avoid action taxes from moving into position or designating a hunt prey target could result in competitive overall numbers long term and I'm very excited about that idea.
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this but will there be spell cards for the Dark Archive spells? I use the spell cards to organize a literal "spellbook" for my prepared casters and there are enough DA spells that I'm definitely going to feel the gap. Would love to buy the spell cards for this book like I did for APG and SoM. It's a fair point, but missing 69 spells is a rather sizeable chunk of missing cards. You're right though that it's still a small threshold compared to the others... Perhaps Rage of Elements will add enough to give us at least the APG's threshold and a combined deck will become viable? Unfortunately the nature of the spell cards is that without all the spells represented, the cards inherent value is reduced and creates an uneven experience.
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this but will there be spell cards for the Dark Archive spells? I use the spell cards to organize a literal "spellbook" for my prepared casters and there are enough DA spells that I'm definitely going to feel the gap. Would love to buy the spell cards for this book like I did for APG and SoM.
Thanks!
Yes, Gen Con edited my titles post-submission. I'll be contacting them this week to have them fixed. Do you have any recommended adventures to play at Gencon for people new to PFS2e? Thanks to adventure paths, my group will have 5th level and 1st level characters to play with, and are trying to put a schedule together that maximizes our PFS experience
Are there any adventures recommended to be played before participating in the Gencon 2023 special event 04-99? I've got a group that's new-ish to PFS2e but not new to org play in general. We're trying to arrange our Gencon 2023 module schedule to maximize our experience.
Hi! I'd like to play something from this sourcebook at GenCon in the organized play games, but it appears it will be debuting *AT* GenCon. Since I'm a rulebook subscriber I'd hoped to have access to the material in time to play it as my low level org play character. Is that going to be possible or should I reset my expectations accordingly?
At the risk of being too nonspecific, why don't we take a page from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and bend the sorcerer more towards the Wilder, similar to the parallels drawn between the Psion and the Wizard? Give him an ability to "pump" his caster level, or maybe break some of those dice caps (14d6 fireballs? things of that nature?). You could even tie this into the bloodlines by putting restrictions on what you could "pump" based on your bloodline, or simply allowing you to pump those more (ex 1: Fire elemental bloodline could only pump fire-based spells, demons only pump evil spells, etc. ex 2: Fire elemental bloodline could pump all spells by 2d6 but could pump his fire spells by 4d6). Just an idea, and not a particularly well thought out one at that, but perhaps it will put you guys on the right track. --- Magis
I'm really not sure where you're getting these stats from, especially regarding mithral, nor what the "of speed" is supposed to come from because the enchantment does not show up in the beta. Here's some corrected stats for your comparison: Heavy Armor AC/max Dex
Medium Armor AC/max Dex
Light Armor AC/max Dex
Since enhancement bonuses can be added at a 1:1 basis to *any* armor, and this includes the fighter "armor training" bonuses as well as the paladin spell-buffs, those should be left out of calculations. The cost/benefit analysis should rely solely on the ratio of armor gained vs. the penalties applied. Thus, the difference between Mithral full-plate and a mundane chain shirt is: AC +3, Max Dex -1, speed reduced as appropriate to character. This is the case no matter which class is comparing the two. --- Magis
Yep. I liked the idea in 4e (don't lynch me!) and I think it serves an excellent purpose here as well. Not only does it provide support for multi-stat-dependent classes, it allows single-stat classes to actually give some thought to their 4th level bump (name a wizard who didn't up int, a sorcerer charisma, etc). With an additional +1 to distribute, more customization could be achieved. I'd obviously recommend clarifying that the two +1's cannot be added to the SAME stat, else we end up with power creep that serves no true purpose. --- Magis
Tagged for later. All good info. Something I've recently done in my campaign to improve my DMing quality is to ask the players for their top 3 things they like to see in a session and the top 3 things they hate to see in a session. Some of the responses can be generic ("I don't like wasting an hour on another players actions that exclude the party") but even reading it and seeing it in print helps me while running a session to keep all the "dos" and "don'ts" in my mind while running so that I'm mindful of time spent on various events and when I get a specific answer ("I like seeing puzzles, but I also like the option of a skill check for a hint just in case the puzzle's too tough and using too much time") it's really golden. --- Ryan
This is perhaps the twink in me somewhat, but wisdom would be the last stat you'd want with a paizo paladin, who doesn't use the stat even for spellcasting (now charisma based). Also, at 2nd level, there's not going to be a whole lot of stuff *any* character can do. LoH and Smite Evil are pretty decent when you've got a full bab and heavy armor to fall back on. Thumbs up on the swift-action-evil-detection but besides that, i think perhaps you're asking for a lot out of a 2nd level character. What does he play like at 8th level? --- Magis
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