Kroothawk's page

There might be another solution:
Kickstarter itself has a "Trust and Safety Team" that is starting to suspend extemely bad kickstarters, here an example:

Hello,

This message from Kickstarter's Trust and Safety Team. We're writing to let you know that a project you recently backed, Papillion (Suspended), has been suspended. We also want to assure you that your $1.00 pledge has been canceled. To protect our community, we may suspend projects when they demonstrate one or more of the following:

- Outstanding fulfillment issues related to a previously successful crowdfunding campaign
- Running multiple, simultaneous projects
- Failure or unwillingness to clearly communicate with backers

As a result, all backers will be refunded. No further action is required on your part.

We take the integrity of the Kickstarter system very seriously. We only suspend projects when we find strong evidence that they are misrepresenting themselves or otherwise violating the letter or spirit of Kickstarter's rules. As a policy, we do not offer comment on project suspensions beyond what is stated in this message.

We know this isn't ideal. But we do sincerely hope to see you again soon, backing one or more of the amazing projects that do cross the finish line, without a hitch, each and every day.

Here's to next time,
Kickstarter Trust and Safety

Let me see: check, check, check. Hoping that Mexico will pay for it someday is not enough.

That said, thank you Erik for finally after several years posting in this thread and taking this seriously. And yes, you made me lose about 200$ with your vouching for ND. Still, the Paizo/ND relationship reminds me of couples, where the alcoholic husband promisses not to ever drink again.

Finally customer service found time to deal with this topic, even if it's only to delete posts by customers.

I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.

Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.

Archon.

Next question?

If you want a list of companies that, like ND, just grab a million dollars and then do nothing, that list is looooong.

Also: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.

Kroothawk wrote:

How about Ninja Division ;)

Stop deflecting. ND was a yes to those questions at the time. Paizo was wrong about it. Hopefully they can recover something out of it all.

Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?

What is their turnaround time?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so maybe never. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.

What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so no opening at all. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.

The beginning of this thread is proof that everyone in the business except Paizo CEO was aware of ND's situation. Even I was aware of ND being untrustworthy and only backed ther kickstarter because of Paizo's guarantee.

TL;DR: ND was a no to those questions at the time, and everyone knew and warned.

Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures? What is their turnaround time? What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?

How about Ninja Division ;)

Paizo vouched with their reputation for this kickstarter, the only reason I took part. Now they have to face the consequences for that.

And I wouldn't count Paizo's "Hi still can't say anything but stay calm" as "communication".

Just to be clear:
Until today, the official kickstarter page
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures?lang=de
lists Paizo as the main responsible agent of this project, as evidenced in the "About Us" section. So as long as Paizo is content with that presentation (and having profited by it through licence payments), I am content with calling them responsible.

And if the only miniature companies in the world are Reaper, WizKids and Ninja Division, who of those 3 makes all the Games Workshop miniatures? Or Privateer's? Or Infinity's? Or Malifaux's? Or Kromlech's? Or Greebo's? Or...
Heck, for 1.3 Mio dollars even I could produce ... nothing at all because it all went into my salary.

Some of my questions:
1.) How much money of the 450.000+ $ raised did they actually use for this kickstarter fullfillment? None? Some?
2.) Where did the money actually go?
3.) Will ND ever again communicate with kickstarter backers?
4.) What are the chances that they fullfill the kickstarter obligations?
5.) How does Paizo see its responsibility/liability in the kickstarter, that officially was made mainly by them (see current "About Us" section of kickstarter page)?
6.) Does Eric Mona still stand to his post here:

We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the timeframe they have promised.

Just to compare: A successfull kickstarter for a 16+ miniature Bloodbowl team usually gets arouns 20.000 $. So ND got the money equivalent for 23 Bloodbowl teams, not including the money from the Game On Tabletop fundraiser (BTW how much was that?):

Our understanding is that the manufacturing of these groups were not all done at the same factory and they were on different production and distribution cycles, and that minis we received for retail, were not from the same production process as the minis intended for kickstarter fulfillment, which is why these ones are on sale on our site while some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards.

1.) So you have no proof that any of the kickstarter money collected in your name went into the kickstarter?

I assume nobody here has a problem with delays in delivery, but we don't like scams. And if indeed no (or less than 10%) money collected was used for fullfilling the kickstarter, even liberal interpretation of kickstarter ToS might see no "intention to fullfill the kickstarter obligations". Paizo can ask ND how many of the 2294 backers received anything or everything.

Edit:
Just found this relevant thread on "Beasts of War":
https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/ks-ninja-division-soda-pop-out-of- money-for-super-dungeon-explore-legends/

Some highlights: ND made 5 kickstarters and has yet to complete one of them. ND got sued for not fullfilling a 2015 kickstarter (6000 backers, 1.29 Mio $), so there are ways. They had to admit that they are out of money since 2017 and are trying to sell the company. So they were long out of money before starting this kickstarter. No wonder they were so eager to do this kickstarter. Intersting to know if Paizo has been aware of this situation.

Edit2:
Another relevant thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2095446/further-confirmation-soda-pop-ninj a-division-issue
Highlight: Archon Studio/Prodos stopped manufacturing for ND in November because of non-payments. Same Prodos that didn't fullfil AvP kickstarter, so a shady company themselves. Maybe someone finds newer Archon statements.

Also bad:

Check the "About Us" part of the kickstarter page:
Paizo is (still) listed as responsible for the kickstarter, as the first company listed, filling 75% of the "About Us" section, with ND coming stealthily behind. So whoever created the page, wanted everyone to believe that this is mainly a Paizo project with the help of ND. That's the reason why I backed it inspite of ND's reputation.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures?lang=de

@GM Rednal: Can we agree that ND produced less miniatures than already paid for by backers (457.539 $ no less, plus late pledges plus gameontabletop pledges). And most of them to companies that paid after backers paid?

Even worse:
At this very moment, the Paizo shop is selling ND Starfinder miniatures (in stock), that were financed by us the kickstarter backers while we don't get anything. Not even a discount on the miniatures we already paid for. So Paizo is basically making money with other people's property. And for several months, they are aware that the people who paid for these miniatures didn't get them. Maybe they should reconsider selling the miniatures ND already sold to us.

https://paizo.com/store/starfinder/accessories/miniatures

So Ninja Division is a company with a widely known bad reputation and a history of almost no kickstarter fullfillment.

Then I don't understand why Paizo chose them and even vouched for them? Was first choice Ponzi Ltd. not answering emails? Was Google blocked for work?

As said, I wouldn't have backed this with 200 $ if not for the reputation of Paizo vouching for this kickstarter.