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Hi all, We've got a small group of pathfinder fans enjoying P8/P6 play in the Philly area, doing round-robin DM'ing and maintaining a persistent backstory between sets of PC's (people have alternates at different levels). Open to a few more players - see the campaign wiki-site: PM me if interested. -Gohaken
Another raise thread -- -- my friends and I in Philly started a P8 campaign world at the beginning of the year. We have been adapting the P6 codex, and a little of PFS ideas, so we have a "persistent world" where we have now 3 groups of PCs (A, B and C teams) that are all in the same storyline, but spread out in terms of levels. My site updates were slack starting around June, but you can see what it's like here: We round robin DM. So, someone feels like running a 4th level mod, we got B Team. Our A Team group is all in the middle of a 7th level mod, and they are about to hit level cap at 8th, and then start to go wide with feats. We also threw together a C Team of already high level PCs (8th level +20 feats) so we could try playing some of the great level 11 and 12 scenarios and modules and see if we survive, TPK, or even do well. We handle rules adjudication by "unanimous minus 1" voting standards (so nobody can filibuster). We tweak / adjust published scenarios and modules into our own loosely connected storyline, with individual group members building out persistent story arcs as inspiration allows. So far it's been an f'in awesome experience. We're open to some new players, if anybody reading things is in the Philly / suburbs areas -- feel free to PM me.
If all you can do is trip, you're useless against flying foes. If all you can do is grapple, you'll be useless against incorporeal foes or things that you don't want to grapple (like a succubus... *cough* ehhhh... umm... Who, exactly, does _not_ want to grapple a succubus?? I mean, *looks around* ... yeah. I'll jump on that. Don't mind provoking even...
Way of the Wicked actually proscribes granting all PC's two bonus skill points per level, restricted to social skills. The reasoning is along the lines of "this is a harder game, everyone and everything else is trying to kill them". I am running WOTW as well, PCs are currently in early Book 3. 1. I gave them all the proscribed +2 skill points (social only) per level, and also strongly recommended they don't dump charisma because Leadership is a big deal in this campaign. There's rules for running an evil organization, and your number of followers matters (they can take organization-level actions to forward the PCs goals, etc.) 2. For "Thorn's Training" at 3rd level, I gave them all the Additional Traits feat instead of just the 1 Thorn's trait. They got to pick 1 Thorn's trait like normal, then pick a second trait per the Additional Traits feat. This campaign can be very tough, especially if you "hard mode" them by bringing in the player's own heroic PCs from other campaigns to fight against them, as the author suggests. Or your own optimized heroic monstrosities lol... -Goh
Also, I was looking at the monk class, and it says lawful-only alignments, is there some feat or trait to bypass that? Alignment schmalignment... you're a succubus. I'm sure you can think or -some- way to convince the DM to ignore that. Or to just let you be lawful for a day (monk's don't lose abilities if they become non-lawful). Or to twist & abuse Enlightened Warrior trait somehow. I know a few DMs that wouldn't shy away from a succubus trying to twist and abuse... just about anything given the right persuasion.
DM is free to Rule 0 it, or to make either a permissive or restrictive interpretation based on their view of the RAI. If you are dealing the strict RAW, however, (PFS, etc) you will probably find that Spell Sunder only lets you ignore miss chances specifically, and only those created by spells or SLA's specifically... not any other unfavorable conditions imposed by a spell, such as: * Mirror Images, a la the example in this thread. * Boosts to CMD that result from the spell (Sacred Shield, etc) * Immediate Actions the spell allows to avoid being struck at all (like Windy Escape, Emergency Force Sphere, Contingent Action, Contingency, etc) * Effects that simply deny the Barbarian the ability to target the creature for his Sunder check, at all (e.g. Sanctuary ) since Sunder Spell specificies that you -must- target the creature in question, if the spell effect is on a creature. * Effects that make you immune (or extremely protected from) the Sunder combat maneuver specifically (can't think of current example at this moment but there may be one, or certainly could be one in the future) * Any miss chance caused by an (Su) or (Ex) ability, even if its one that duplicates a spell.
Also it's worth noting Spell Sunder can't be used on (Su) or (Ex) abilities at all (like a Ninja's Vanishing Trick). Only Spells and SLA's.
With a very restrictive DM, for any Spell or SLA effects that are not directly visible, audible, or otherwise directly detectable and identifiable by the Barbarian, he or she would probably need to make a Spellcraft check to even know they were there (based on secondary or teriary effects of the spell providing clues to it's existance.) Examples: Directly observable/detectable and identifiable as a spell: Stoneskin. Barkskin. Fog Cloud. Righteous Might. Not directly observable/identfiable (maybe after interaction can be inferred, otherwise need good perception and/or spellcraft, knowledge arcana, etc...): Shield. Mage Armor. Any other invisible force FX. Haste. Summon Monster X (unless you saw the mage doing the summon), most polymorph spells (Beast Shape whatever; unless you saw them doing the polymorph), Unseen Servant (unless you have see Invis) until it moves or does something, the aftereffects of Share Memory on someone who's memory was erased, etc...etc...
Your mileage may vary. -Goh
EDIT:
I'd vote that the Barbarian should be able to Sunder the spell. The intent is clearly that he should be able to hit you regardless of what spell you have active. That is clearly -not- the intent at all, to me or the communites I play in (Philly, DC, Jersey, sometimes NYC, some online.) To the majority of us, it's clearly intended that the barbarian can Sunder Spells when they can target the spellcaster, are free to make an attack role (so they're not paralyzed or stunned or whatever), and they specifically get to ignore Miss Chances (a term defined specifically in the game). That's it.
Otherwise you could create contrived scenarios where you could say that the spell Invisibility doesn't give a miss chance, it simply bestows a condition which happens to include a miss chance, etc. That would be a maliciously restrictive interpretation. The spell directly produces the effect that produces the Miss Chance... Invisibility, Darkness, Obscuring Mist, etc. Miss Chance is a specific game term. Spell Sunder ignores any Miss Chance caused by a spell or spell effect, period. The spell's direct action to produce a condition that causes a Miss Chance qualifies it as an effect Spell Sunder can avoid. Violating the definition by using an "exaggerrated to absurdity" argument doesn't hold water. One of the interpretation conflicts that arises in discussions like these are when people collapse specific game terminology (like Miss Chance, Grappled Condition, Petrified condition, Morale bonus, etc) with their own "common sense" definition or interpretation of a word or phrase. Specific game terms have specific definitions, which the boundaries of their meaning and interactions with other game terms. -Goh
What traits do you have?? Take Adopted (Shoanti humans) -> Bred for War, either as a base trait or from Additional Traits feat. That's +1 CMB and Intimidate. Also, see the Feat: Tribal Scars (Greattusk). That's +6 HP, and +2 for all Bullrush and Overrun CMB checks. ITEMS: Belt of Strength +whatever, or even go Minotaur/Gorgon belt for extra versatility on your charges. Ioun Stone +1 AC (insight bonus) -> slot this in your Wayfinder for a resonant power: +2 CMB/CMD! Put the "Brawling" -weapon- enhancement on either Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes, or an Amulet of Mighty Fists, or some light bludgeoning weapon you can wield while also wielding a greatsword. Like say a dwarven boulder helmet (which you can gain proficiency with via Heirloom Equipment trait, perhaps when you take the Additional Traits feat for Adopted: Bred for War as described above.)
Put the "titanic" armor property on your armor. It's expensive (a +3 mod), but it makes you count 1 size category larger. So... with Titan Fighter lvl 5, you will be able to Overrun even bigger creatures before even using Enlarge Person pots or the 27.5K Righteous Might SLA from Armor (lol at Seeker level.). Also, being larger adds to your CMB... It's possible one of the Rovagug feats like "Breaker of Barriers" would add 2 to your Overruns. I know it adds to Bullrush. Assuming you're willing to be CN and worship -that- guy. Ioun Stone Thorny whatever is 8k and I believe one version does +2 Overrun as competence bonus. Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver (Overrun) is 4k.
I haven't done a lot of Overrun builds but that should get you started. Good luck man, hell yeah Titan Fighter!! -Goh
so since its not a miss chance, its just the standard CMD +5 to sunder mirror image? No. The barbarian is subject to the mirror image effect unless he has True Seeing or some other means of bypassing the illusion (like, say, closing his eyes.... the easiest solution for anyone in general.) If he doesn't pop an image on his roll, he can sunder the spell. Better off closing your eyes and having blindfight. Now you defeat mirror image effect and get to sunder the spell 75% of the time. -Goh
In any OP campaign I've played, there is a significant camp within the player base that believes that the only condition that is needed is dead and that every PC should try to get the enemy there as quickly as possible. Yeah those people are the cause of 2/3rds or more of the lost Prestige Points in PFS Scenarios. Even Speak with Dead is not usually sufficient to get the secondary success condition, and no one is spending 5k to rez an enemy for 1 prestige, even if they just screwed up to 6 other players at the table. Now if they're Sap Master or Pinning Knockout mega-damage (non-lethal) junkies, well by all means, hop to it. Or if they have Merciful weapon or something. But otherwise "Kill First Realize You Needed Them Alive Later" is a bad idea... and one that happens waaaay to often. :-( Control > Damage. I play a horrifyingly strong "Blockbuster Wizard" as one of my PFS chars, and I only keep 3 or 4 "kill em all" blasts prepped... the rest of my slots are utility (Dim Door, Scrying, Blood Money), buff (Greater Invis, Telepathic Bond, whatever) or Debuff/BC (Resilient Sphere, Sonic Thrust, Glitterdust, or crossover spells like Burst of Radiance.) "I kill it" is a really, really limited option in anything but Diablo style play.
Ehh... the whole point of what I was saying is that RAW + Current FAQ & Dev Posts supports the ruling for "Over-levelling" your animal companion (capped at a maximum EDL of whatever would grant your AC a HD of PC Character Level +1.) You may get some table variation but that's current RAW + official online stuff. Who knows when it will change... If you want to play it safe, dip Hunter (Divine Hunter Archtype) to level 3, to count as having a Cleric Domain (also Animal or Feather or Fur, whichever version you took in the Inquisitor) and then your "domain level" will stack as if from 1 source... and for Divine Hunter that means when you hit "domain level" 4, you will get the +1 to two stats from the Hunter archtype specific rules. No over-levelling to cause drama. Then just go back to Inqusitor or whatever. Sacred Huntmaster 2 / Divine Hunter 4 / Sacred Huntmaster 3 up to 8 is actually pretty decent for an "optimized light" build, especially if you go Archery route and take Fate's Favored to buff your Divine Favor spells. Assuming Animal domain you end up with full normal level AC and get +1 to two of it's Stats (will happen at Inquisitor 2 / Hunter 4.). You will add Wisdom to a lot of stuff as well as use it for both spell lists, so, seriously consider Evangelist of Erastil as a Prestige Class (again assuming Archery) maybe starting at character level 6 or 7. -Goh
Whether or not it'd be "worth it" is in the eye of the beholder (har har...). We talking about power and flexibility?? Then I think being able to standard-action summon 4 demons at what "should" be the "summon 1 of these" lists for SM 7, 8 or 9... for 15 to 20 minutes per casting... is worth much more than having an Animal Companion. -EVEN IF- you do over level it via Sorc Robe as you suggested, and, take the two relevant Bloodline boosting traits (Ascendant Recollection and Dtang Ma Bloodline), and, are human with Huntmaster feat (so pick bird or small cat and you are now at EDL = Class level +4). Malconvoker (w/ Superior Summons...!! wtf!) is just plain stronger than "Druid AC w/ level boost".
But, are we talking about flavor & RP?? Whole different story. Playing Way of the wicked? Man, grab the Imp companion. Perfect for that campaign. Or are you playing something set in the First World, or a "save the trees and we're eco-terrorists" kind of game? Sure brother, sport the over-levelled AC.
*shrugs* Honestly, none of these are bad. The recent ACG errata takes a dump on your Arcane Reservoir refills, so, that might steer you more towards AC or Imp instead of being "all in" on the PF Malconvoker equivalent, but for my part I'd still go that route unless everyone else is playing some Tier 4 or 5 characters, or the flavor of the game really calls for furry friends or a direct hotline to the Hells. -Goh
THe mistmail is going to act like normal fog. Anything which disperses fog will disperse the mist. Reasonable interpretation, but it doesn't use the term "normal fog" in the description does it? Room to argue, as we have been. We disagree here... I think it would act as either Obscuring Mist with the bonus of moving with the user, or preferably, Fog Cloud with the bonus of being able to move with the user. .If it's not dispersed...it's a 5' radius cloud. You can hide IN the cloud, and not be seen...but that's completely different then hiding the cloud itself! (just like you can hide in magical darkness, but a big black globe in the middle of the street trundling along is terribly easy to see.) No argument here at all. I'm not suggesting that mistrial allows your to hide the cloud. Enemies will know your square if they know you exist and can see/detect you, and you'd need to be hiding in actual fog or something to hide the mist. But that's not what I was suggesting as the value add here. I was talking about HiPS for combat uses. Do you know my square? That's nice. If my stealth beats your perception, on my next attack I still get +2 to hit your flat-footed AC (and sneak attack if applicable), because you don't see -me- or what -I'm doing- in my 5' cube of misty fogginess of awesome. Or if it's your turn to attack me and my stealth beats your perception, then despite knowing my square you will have a 50% miss chance. Either way, I'll take it.
Running is generating your own wind effect, in effect. Walking isn't a problem...it's less then a light breeze. Running? That's more like a sustained gust of wind. Again, we disagree. While what you're saying is reasonable given real-world physics, that's not the actual RAW. There is no written rule for movement subjecting creatures to wind effects. Should there be? Maybe so, but there isn't one. And it would cause problems in some cases if there was: * Are basically all diminutive creatures not allowed to take the Run action, because they get checked by wind? * What about diminutive fliers with a high base speed? Can they not fly? * How does their base speed interact with prevailing wind conditions (e.g. running into a headwind vs. running with a tail wind?) Is it like the interaction of Reverse Gravity and Gravity Well spells? I mean, there's some logically reasonable interpretations possible, sure, but hats what they are: interpretations. Not RAW. Also remember, the wind rules vs. fog is "disperses in 4 rounds" or at worst "disperses in 1 round". So even with a horribly unfavorable interpretation or house rule for "Movement = Wind effect", you could still manage the problem in tactical combat by always keeping your "moderately fast" movement to 3 rounds at a time or less (avoiding the 4th round that causes dispersal) and your "balls-to-the-wall fastest movement" to less than 1 round... like say, a single move action... from your Quickrunner shirt... and then you Full Attack the enemy which requires no additional continuous high-speed movement. That whole thought exercise, however, is moot by RAW. Movement does not equal wind fx unless GM house rules that.
Cheers -- however I'll be bowing back for your ending comment/argument in a moment... .A water effect that completely encompasses your square is basically immersion, and acid breath (5' wide) is basically that, as is the soaker effect from a Decanter. Again, we disagree, and the RAW sports my view. Your interpretation is certainly real-life physics reasonable, but it's not RAW and the game mechanics allow for "magic" that defies physically reasonable interactions. Also in this specific case, your argument runs into a definitions problem. The term "underwater" as referenced in the item's description directly, and in either of the spell FX that it may draw from, is a game-specific term-of-art indicating a Terrain type. The evidence for this is in the sentence in content: "...or entering a place where the fog-magic doesn't function (such as underwater)" The phrase 'Entering a place' references a location, which in PF / d20 terms indicates a Terrain. Acid Breath, geyser mode decanters, Hydraulic Push and all other "water soaker" FX do not produce the Underwater Terrain type.
Mist is water, and in frozen conditions will instantly precipitate, so no 'fog' unless it instantly transmutes to snow and is still considered 'ice mist' or something. Same as above, your interpretation is certainly real-life physics reasonable, but it's not RAW and the game mechanics allow for "magic" that defies physically reasonable interactions. (off topic: even if we were going to "common sense" some physics on this point, it's quite possible to have mist at low temperatures... if the pressure has changed enough to move the freezing point, or the liquid in question has a different freezing point than one assumed, etc, etc...) .
Well here, you got me. Yes, it's pure cheese. Mozzarella melted on top of fontina to make a big f'in mess, kinda cheese. You -can- pull off some of the stunts I'm proposing without the PFS banned items (e.g. Quickrunner, Padma blossom, Dustknuckles). This is because a good amount of the cheap but awesomely OP items actually are totally PFS legal: Mistmail and Cloudwalking Slippers, Clockwork Key (500gp for a slotless "all constructs, regardless of their HD or intelligence, avoid me" item should -not- be legal, but, it is...), Spring-loaded wrist sheaths for 5gp a pop, etc. Also in terms of feats and traits, Celestial and Deific Obedience feats are legal and part of this craziness, as are all the races/archtypes I've described (you'd need a season 5 or earlier character to field a tiefling, but there's a LOT of those around). But dude at the end of the day, you are right: This is cheese. Maybe 85%-90% PFS legal cheese, but that doesn't make it "not cheesy". So, yeah, time for a pizza party. -Goh
At first glance it's a nice slick team of builds here. Kudos. Point of note: You invested at least 2 feats into Trip with Player 1. I strongly recommend you make sure it will stay relevant into high level play, as follows: 1. Snowstrider trait (either by swapping fencer, or taking a Drawback to gain a 3rd trait, or taking Additional Traits feat which ain't a bad idea so you can also snag Fate's Favored.) This fixes some size problems without needing Ki Throw and unarmed trips. 2. Buy a Dragoncatch Guisarme as a backup weapon for this guy. Still has reach for AOO / reach cleric style tactics. But most importantly you can now use Trip against 2/3rds of all flying enemies (that is, anyone using actual wings to fly.) Optionally, consider 3. Fury's Fall feat once you're high enough level to have wealth to boost your Str some, not just your Dex/Con or whatever. Yes, I know he's a Weapon Finesse fighter. But Weapon Finesse doesn't -force- you to use Dex, it allows you to do it. So when you trip, you could do Str+Dex on your Trip checks instead of just dex. I think it's worthit at high level play when enemy CMD's get huge, and you have enough cash to pop +4 Str on your +6 Dex belt or whatever. That would net you a Str 18 so a +4 bonus on all your Trip checks, which is significant. Optionally, consider 4. Add "Titanic" to your armor. It's expensive (a +3 bonus), but dammit anyway it's great for combat maneuvers, at least at end-game levels when enemies get _B_I_G_. ----- Regarding your last few levels question, I cast my vote for more Lore Warden, hands down. This is because of similar reasoning as above: you're already investing in Trip, and so extra CMB hoo-rah, and, Weapon Training 1 (plus some 15k Gloves to make it bump up Weapon Training 3) is worth ANOTHER +3 CMB on Trips and on normal attack rolls as well... and damage, just saying...
'Cause when you committed to tripping a Collosal Dragon, or maybe even Achaekek the Mantis God CR 30, you will want to have a maximized CMB, Snowstrider trait to be able to trip 2 sizes above (or Titan Fighter level 5, ok, ok bro...), the Titanic enhancement on your armor to count as Large, have quaff'd an Enlarge Person to now count as Huge, have gotten True Strike'd from a wand or Deific Obedience SLA or whatever, and... ...a Dragoncatch Guisarme to knock them the f_ck out of the sky! And stay down! ;-)
...and anyway it's not like Lore Warden is losing you Skill Points or something, you still get 4/level cause of the awesome-sauce bonus points for the archetype.
Just a quick gut check here from a fellow min maxer who loves using monk archetypes: You're not expecting to use Perfect Strike feat with either of Temple Sword or Shuriken, right?? ...That feat has a very limited list of allowed weapons, and neither TS nor Shur are on that list. In fact the only way I know off the top of my head to change that list is Zen Archer.
Also, side note, check out the Far Strike Monk archetype if you like to throw a lot of stuff. They're like Zen Archers with thrown weapons. Also consider dipping 2 levels of Winding Path Renegade Brawler, with the Wind school which I believe adds 10' to range increment for all ranged weapons... BASE... so any "Distance" enchantments or whatever would be double your original+10 range increment on your Shuriken, etc.
Last but not least, Ninja Trick (Flurry of Stars) is pretty diesel if you can get Greater Invisibilty or a swift/attack action version of Greater Feint (there are ways.) -Goh
Riuk, the problem you're running into here is conflicting rules between what's written in a couple places, various Paizo staff posts, and PFS campaign-specific rules. You are going to get table variation because of this. At this time, there is no 100% argument-proof answer, so the DM has to rule it.
THAT BEING SAID... in PFS, the strongest position comes from the most recent FAQ's posted (or errata released) at any given time, which to my knowledge is still the following (paraphrased): * You may only have 1 animal companion per character. * Any PFS legal archetypes that allow multiple animal companions (like Huntmaster Cavalier, the various "pack master" types of Ranger/Druid/Hunter, etc) have been modified (or just nerfed) to only allow 1. * ALL "Effective Druid Levels" STACK --IF-- the Animal Companion or Mount "type" is available on --ALL-- lists involved. Any list that doesn't include the animal you've chosen, well you lose those levels. * No matter what mechanics you are able to min max together, there is a hard limit of "PC Character level +1" for your Animal Companion's hit dice (NOTE: This is -Not- your Effective Druid Level, but rather the Hit Dice of the animal that results from your EDL on the Animal Companion table)
EXAMPLE CASES:
A) You have Emissary Cavalier 4 / Oracle (Nature Mystery) 6 with the Divine Mount revelation (or whatever it's called). You choose a Camel ("watch out, they spit!"). In this simple case, your EDL stacks to 7 because Camel is on both lists. NOTE HOWEVER that you would have the Cavalier version of the Animal Companion (it loses Share Spells, if it dies and you get a new one you have to spend time to train it some, etc) combined with the Nature mystery version (A nice high Intelligence of 6).
B) You have a Huntmaster Cavalier 4 / Oracle (Lunar Mystery) 6 with the Primal Companion revelation. No matter what you choose, you have a problem here. The lists do not include any common options. Huntmaster Cavalier can only take a Bird or a Dog. However, Lunar mystery's Primal Companion list does not allow either of those. Your EDL will not stack, you will have either an EDL of 4 or an EDL of 6, not 10.
C) You have a Hunter 5 / Paladin 5 / Mammoth Rider 2 This one is interesting because Mammoth Rider animal companion list -replaces and supercedes- (all of) your previous "lists" of options for Animal Companions. But given PFS strict RAW adherence, your previous lists would all have to have a common option for those levels to stack with each other before the Mammoth Rider feature kicks in. Not a problem in this specific case: assuming you're medium sized PC the Paladin 5 can take a Horse, Hunter can also take a Horse, so the levels stack and then Mammoth Rider kicks in with Huge Steed or whatever and you pick a new animal from it's replacement list (how about a Huge Sized Tiger a'la 10,000 BC?? Sabretoothed death the size of an Allosaurus...) IF, however, you had gone with classes that do not share a list (like Oracle (Lunar) 5 and Paladin 5 on a medium sized PC), you would have a problem here and you'd lose 5 EDL because Mammoth Rider would only stack on one of those, not both.
D) You have a Zen Archer 4 / Divine Hunter 6 / Evangelist of Erastil 10 ALSO: you took Nature Soul at 1st level, and Animal Ally at 4th level (using Ultimate Campaign retraining rules to retrain your 3rd level feat the moment you qualified for Animal Ally, which is when you hit 4th.) You choose an animal that falls on the Animal Ally list (say a Wolf, or a Bird, etc.) ...now this one gets complicated and causes arguments, because RAW you end up with an EDL of 20 way earlier than 20th, and max out your Animal Companion (16 Hit Dice) at 15th character level. It could even have happened earlier, if it wasn't for the PFS ruling that Animal Companions can -never- have more than 1 HD above their PC "owner's" total Character level, as mentioned above. The way this happens is that Animal Ally grants an Animal Companion from a limited list of options, based on your Total Character Level -3. It also explicitly says that the levels it grants -stacks- with levels granted from any classes that have an Animal Companion, Mount or equivalent class feature... but the thing is those classes features are based on their Class levels, while this feat is based on total Character level... see where this is going? Zen Archer 4, with that feat, equals EDL 1. Throw in Div Hunter 6?? Now it's total Character level 10-3, which is an EDL of 7.... PLUS STACKING WITH... the Div Hunter 6 EDL of 6.... total EDL of 13. That's an 11 HD Animal Companion, as if you were a 13th level druid, but you are only a 10th level character. You are legally "double dipping" your Hunter levels for EDL. Arguments about Rules-As-Intended carry little weight in PFS, and this -is- the RAW as modified by PFS campaign rulings at this time, so, yes it's possible to have an animal companion with more HD than you have levels. There's a couple ways to pull this off, this is just 1 of them (though options for this are much more limited now since the ARG errata came out nerfing the Nature Oracle and Lunar Oracle pathways.) Incidentally, this is actually one framework for an amazing Zen Archer build that hits a very high Tier 3 level of performance and utility in the game.
E) You are playing a Half-Orc Bloodrider Bloodrager and you take the Beastrider feat. OR SIMILARLY, you are playing a Paladin, Ranger or Cavalier and you take the Monstrous Mount feat. You also have levels of Hunter, Druid or some other class that grants an EDL. This situation is a pain in the @ss, because some DMs will argue that Beastrider and/or Monstrous Mount feats only modify -ONE- of your class lists, not both. Other DM's will say that the feat modifies all of your AC lists... and that even if you had 8 different classes with the Animal Companion or Mount feature, once you took Beastrider you have added Rhinoceros and friends to all of your lists (or Griffons and Worgs and stuff with Monstrous Mount). At this current time I have not seen any official ruling on this case from the PFS head honchos, big kahunas or grand poona's, so... it's Table Variation all the way and YMMV. The safest play in PFS however, as usual, is to assume the most limiting interpretation when the RAW is anything other than 100% crystal clear, and that basically means that Monstrous Mount and/or Beastrider are really only good if you have a single EDL granting class, or, if you have more than one EDL granting classes but all of them except for at most 1 of them offers the same choices in it's/their original list as the Beastrider feat (e.g. Druid allows Rhinocerous, so, a Cavalier 6 / Druid 6 with the Beastrider feat will be able to have a full EDL Rhino. Which is f_ckin' awesome by the way... Rhino's have powerful charge and with an Int of 3 can eventually take Minotaur's Charge to wreck shop!! Similarly, Druid 4 / Hunter 4 / Paladin 5 with Beastrider could have a full EDL Rhino because both Druid and Hunter have Rhino on their list so only Paladin needs the feat... etc.)
. OK so, your proposed scenario of Sacred Huntmaster with Animal Domain... for a PFS game the most recent FAQ's and staff answers would actually indicated Case D above... the over-levelled Animal Companion, because the Animal Domain granted EDL would -stack- with the Sacred Huntmaster's normal animal companion class feature (they are 2 different sources, and there is ZERO language under Sacred Huntsman invoking the alternate rules for the very specific case of the Divine Hunter archetype.) However... if you then multi-classed your Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor with a Divine Hunter of level 3 or higher, you would immediately be subject to the Divine Hunter's alternate rules and lose all those extra "double-dipped" EDL in exchange for 2 stat points to assign. Why? Because Inquisitors who multi-class with Cleric -MUST- take one of the Cleric's selected Domains as their Inquisitor Domain, and, the Inquisitor Domain / Cleric Domain levels stack. And, Divine Hunter specifically says you get a Cleric domain, and count as a Cleric (level -2). Ain't that a b!tch?? So don't multi-class these... (or, do it if you want to "fix" the over-leveling down to normal, deliberately). Hope this helps. -Gohaken PS. This thread probably belongs in the PFS forums since that's what you're actually asking about, but hey maybe it will be helpful to some non-PFS people too.
Wait... There's a succubus errata? . yeah I'm not too sure how I feel about some psychic substitute succubi. Now if she dressed up a bit and called herself a substitute teacher, maybe I could let it slide. Out ... of bounds.
Anywho... maybe its not all bad. A psychic can really see your Point of View, or I guess POV for short. And you know me, I like it when they dip, so... ... I'm fhinking a psychic succubi substitute teacher who dips Master of the Empty Hand monk so she can Flurry of Blows POV, unless she has to move that round, in which case she just Strike Vitals to Furious Finish.
Hunter is pretty versatile in terms of what you can build out of it. You can go archery or melee tag team or mounted, and you can make your animal companion pretty vicious. Here's a reasonably setup (not very optimized) archery-based hunter build outline: Argo Fu'kyoself
25 PBuy
Traits: Adopted (Aasimar: Garudakin -> Toxophilite), Deadeye's Bowman.
ACF every level +1 skill to Animal 1: Totem Beast
Your AC will be +1 effective druid level, so it will hit 14 when you hit 16. It will have Ranger Skirmisher tricks, simple Celestial template, start with +2 Int so can take any feat level 1 and can use ioun stones, etc. A fun tactic with this guy is to keep a quiver full of tangleshot arrows and pheromone arrows as well as other alchemical arrows, and then cast Abundant Ammo spell so you can debuff enemies all over the field for your cat to airwalking charge and trip. He's basically a controller archer with damage as a backup, some druid & ranger spells, and a very durable and effective at debuffing boss kitty. -Goh
EDIT: Oh... if dipping is on the table, dip 1 level of Wildblooded Sorcerer (Fey: Sylvan). You buy 16k Robes of Arcane Heritage, and you swap out two of your traits (Blackthorn Rancher and Dangerously Curious) as follows: Ascendant Recollection, and Dtang Ma Bloodline. You end up Hunter 15 / Sorc 1, with an Effective Druid Level of 20th (so your animal is maxed out at 16HD too). As a bonus, you can cast Sorc spells which means UMD is less necessary. Of course, this makes you way more Min Maxed. Or, if you do that dip and you're willing to settle for a 15HD companion by 16th level, you can swap Small Cat for anything else (like say Velociraptor, or The Roc) and take a different feat instead of Huntmaster.
<<Paraphrasing Secret Wizard because Quote didn't include your text from reply>> ~SR always on is a trap, SR as a swift & inexpensive option is useful/good.~ Minor quibble here regarding SR, though I agree with pretty much everything else you said: People say "its a trap" as if that's a fact. Actually it's an opinion. Monks (old) don't get SR till 13th level. By then, we're dealing with high level play, e.g. Scry & Fry tactics, 15-minute adventuring days, maybe even the Wish economy. Pre-buffing before combat is very doable as a standard strategy to mitigate the need for in combat buffing. If you grab trait "Scorned by Magic" and the Bestiary feat to bump your SR, you have what SR = Class Level + 13 or so? That's a relevant "miss chance" for full casters, and even at Spell Perfection level 15+ with a not-stupid caster build this much SR will block a relevant number of all their spells and a smaller but not insignificant % of their perfected spells. In general -- obviously this changes against an uber-maxed Transmuter Disintegrate build or whatever. I'd rather get some 'armor vs. spells' (50% or at least 25%) against the BBEwizard's Reach Persistent Planeshift (to the abyss) even if I miss out on a Blessing of Fervor or whatever 4 rounds into the fight. And if I happen to be a Flowing Monk, I'm all about this. I want Volley Spell for Spell Turning. Even if it's always on. Unchained Monk gets a safer deal with SR, and I believe can do a cheaper cost Volley Spell, but that doesn't mean old/archtype monks should never go this route. My 10 cents. -Goh PS. Best SR deal I've seen (besides one of the "Story" feats that gives selective SR vs. Evil, and a similar Deific/Celestial Obedience Boon) is the Spellscar gunslinger. Always on so there in an ambush, like old Monk, but can drop it as swift for 1 grit. EDIT: I think the Spellscar guy's SR is based on Character Level not Class level, so even better deal.
That is the thing I know it is powerful but I have to say Monks have a very few options for bettering themselves. Ehhh, not so brother, monks have a very large and increasing number of options. I'm more a fan of old archetypes than unchained, but either way there's a lot of feats, traits, and gear that monks can use to great effect. Their MADness can be made into an advantage, and their seemingly disconnected/disparate abilities actually provide some unusual opportunities relative to the other martial classes. for example -- another pathway to get Wisdom to hit is Guided Hand the feat. It requires Channel Smite, which requires the ability to channel. Dipping Cleric 1 of Pharasma allows you to channel Negative, then you take Channel Smite and Guided Hand, and Domain Strike for your Repose domain. Hey look at that! You can now auto-stagger an enemy 1/round as part of your Unarmed attack routine, and you have a high enough Wisdom to make use of that ability. And you can add negative energy to your attacks with good ol' channel smite, plus you get your Wisdom to attack. Pretty Groovy for almost any monk.
IF you choose to do this, Abyssal for added summons at 11 is awesome. In 3.5 there was an entire PrC dedicated to summoning multiple baddies at once, the Malconvoker, and it was quite potent. You should immediately take Superior Summons if you don't have it already, at 11th level as well. "I summon a demon, which means I get to summon two. Oh, right, that's more than 1, so that triggers superior summons... so... actually I summon three. As a standard action, for the next 10 minutes." EDIT: And when you reach 15th level, take Spell Perfection: SM 7. You will start summoning 4 demons as a standard action instead of just 3. Retrain Spell Perfection every time you get access to a new level of SM spell.
Oh great and terrible Caster-Martial Disparity God... ...I am immediately switching my alignment to be within one of yours, and retraining as a Warpriest so I can be both martial and caster.
What is your alignment? What is your favored weapon, so I know what I get proficiency & focus in? What domains and blessings do you offer? Subdomains?? And most important of all, for when I PrC to Evangelist, what are your Deific Obedience boons??
Your humble groveling servant.
Man Im not really sure either -- I haven't ever played Magus or spent much time on it. I'm guessing it has to do with level 10 "Staff Weapon" ability, which as written allows magus to recharge any one staff as much as he wants each day (assuming he has access to refilling his arcane pool easily). I suppose with a really nasty staff, he can effectively expand his spell list by burning arcane points to cast level 9 spells (again, really only an issue if he can find a way to recharge his arcane pool easily). This is conjecture from reading the archtype, I haven't ever built or play tested one of these. -Goh
re: concealment going both ways -- While some GM's would run it the way you say, and it sounds logical, that is not RAW, it would be a fiat / house rule. As a reference point, related to what you pointed out earlier, PFS tries to close off relatively "too powerful" stuff and yet in PFS the Mistmail works as I've described; it is strict RAW. And in the PF Core book it's pretty clear someone can use the edge of a cloud or darkness effect (or hiding around a corner, in the case of a bow user) to benefit from concealment (or cover) while their enemies do not.
To quote it from RAW:
. Ergo: 1. when making a ranged attack or a melee reach attack against an enemy, you choose any corner of your square (I recommend choosing whichever corner is closest to the enemy). Draw all four line from that corner to each corner of the enemy's space. If any of those lines pass through the mist then your target gets concealment. So... assuming you are at the edge of the mist and didn't pick a corner behind you, none of the lines will pass through any mist. 2. And if you are inside the mist making a melee attack against an adjacent enemy, he only has concealment if HIS space (not yours) is completely in the area. It is not. Therefore, no concealment.
Now with regards to your mist getting forced back into armor, yes it's more vulnerable than say a minor cloak of displacement's effects (to which on Dispel Magic could suppress or Antimagic stuff or whatever). It's also less than 10% of the cost, and has more utility.
* Dispel Magic can suppress magic items effects and cause problems for anyone, that's not unique to Mistmail. Not particularly convincing argument to avoid Mistmail unless you're avoiding all items.
* If GM rule's it's vulnerabilities are like Obscuring Mist (less favorable to the PC, though reasonable given that's the spell used in creation --however the spell description does -not- match the description of the item's FX in terms of the fog being thick, and, moving with the PC...) then yes Fireball effects will kill that suit's mist form for the day and PC will have to don another one or just deal with it. As mentioned above, that's not a game ender for any of these guys; it does however reduce their AC and mobility forcing them to use backup mobility options or waste actions in combat. But alas, these are D Team problems. At 2250p a pop, backup suits are very realistic (and it's dumb not to have them actually). Since we're D Team and we need a lot of consumables and stuff, we probably need to deal with this level of risk given the amount of power you can squeeze out of this item in exchange for accepting that level of risk. You may find some ways to protect against a blast AOE or two each combat, as well, if you're creative. ** On the other hand, if GM rules it's vulnerabilities are like Fog Cloud instead (more favorable to PC, and matches the description of the fog created specified in the item text whereas Obscuring Mist's description does -not- match as indicated above), then you do not have the vulnerability to fire FX at all. It's not clear in the RAW, depends on GM, you're correct on this point for sure: YMMV.
* Freezing temperatures -- that's entirely DM fiat if played that way, it's not suggested in the item description or either of the candidate spell descriptions.
* Rain or being doused -- that's also DM fiat; not specified in item, nor in either spell description Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud. The item description specifies "Underwater," a game term meaning the terrain type as selectable by Rangers for a favored terrain. Rain is not sufficient for that, nor is Create Water. By strict RAW, even a Decanter of Endless Water on geyser mode would be insufficient --you got soaked, but you're not in "Underwater" terrain. Going for a swim however would kill it, even if you're at the surface (assuming you're not Water Walking).
* Acid Breath -- I looked up both the Undine racial ability Acid Breath, and the Dragon's Breath spell that lets you breath acid. I also looked up sorcerous bloodline FX for Draconic, and actual dragons that breathe acid. I did not find an "Acid Breath" spell or analogue besides those 4 things. In all four of those cases I saw no mention of dispersing fog or creating a blast of wind along with the acid damage. So these, along with any element other than Fire, would be entirely DM fiat / house rule. ...And as mentioned above, even the element Fire causing problems is assuming an unfavorable ruling by a DM; one which does not match the item's description in its text. Fog Cloud is closer than Obscuring Mist. Again though, for Fire only and assuming a RAW DM, as you said: YMMV.
* Wind Effects (spells, naturally occurring, certain Su / other abilities) -- well yes, these just suck for the Mistmail user. D Team problem, which requires bringing backups. Yes, enemies who know how it works will be able to nerf these guys. Then again, enemies who know how this works can probably nerf other D Teams too, so, I'm not seeing how this is problematic enough to say "No" to the 2250gp cost (or even triple that if you buy two backups for the day), especially not at Witchwar level for the proposed scenario in this thread.
* Running -- this is not specified in the RAW, and is counter to the item's description. It explicitly states "This mist moves with the character." and does not specify any speed limit. And as logical as it may seem, there is no RAW ruling stating that a running creature is subject to wind effects. That would make things interesting for fine/diminutive creatures, among other things. This one is also a DM fiat / house rule.
===== EDIT: The point of the Stealth checks is for combat uses: getting sneak attack for the Rogue, or even just screwing their targeting against you and get yourself the +2 to hit their flat-footed AC for them not Perception'ing you in your square. ===== Look, at the end of the day, I've directly admitted/agreed earlier in the thread that for this D Team challenge vs. a 17th level high magic mod (Witchwar in this case) that I'd pull out all the stops; every dirty trick I can find that's RAW legal. Some people won't play that way, and I don't -usually- play that way, but this is an unusual scenario. It doesn't seem like fair play in this discussion to disqualify an unusual/extraordinary approach to handling an unusual/extraordinary circumstance, based on the merits & flaws of the approach's "unusual-ness". If we were discussing making a standard balanced party with casters and stuff then yeah this level of min-maxing and corner-casing would be excessive. But that does not seem to be the point of this thread, quite the opposite. -Goh
Cute. For the Damage Incorporated guy sure, high tier 4. He's a beat stick with some edges and tricks and extra options. Agreed. But, the other 3 builds firmly fit the Tier 3 definition. Ouat Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong monk can break the game with deliberate intent to do so, and is exceptionally good at buffing in his own quirky way, and has other things to do when buffing is not appropriate. He will outshine Tier 5's much of the time. ZAM with no dipping required, built with the newer splatbook resources and gear and exploiting Trick Shot and Ki Focus Bow as well as his very SADness is exceptionally good at killing everything that moves, and has other things to do when that is not appropriate, and will outshine Tier 5's and heck most Tier 4's and a few Tier 3's much of the time. You can make ZAM an even higher Tier 3 by double-dipping Wis to Attacks (and adding Wis to damage) via Evangelist of Erastil, snagging Animal Ally along the way and dipping Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor afterwards for Wis to all social skills and Init and knowledges and also over-leveling your AC by RAW back up to full level+1, basically making the SADest Archer ever (who's also got a full level Bird or Small Cat or whatever with Ranger Skirmisher tricks and if you went Aasimar maybe the simple Celestial template too... that he can magically clone for 1 big fight a day or massive additional scouting / puzzle support) with ending abilities of equivalent ZAM 17 (hello Ki Focus Bow & Trick shot) Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor 2 (hello Wis to bluff, intim, diplo, knowledge to ID'ing threats, initiative, access to Divine Favor and Inquisitor list for consumables, and Hunter version of AC) and the full benefits of Evangelist PRC 10. That's ZAM 1 - 6, Evangelist 7 - 16, Sacred Huntsman 17-18, ZAM 19-20. And you still have all the Qinggong utility boosts & buffs (Ki Leech, Shadow Walk, True Strike?, maybe Abundant Step, maybe Gaseous Form, maybe Restoration, maybe Share Memory, maybe Battleming Link, lots of options here.) ...or switch the last 4 levels around if you want Ki Focus Bow sooner for your 800' range vs. touch AC Touch of Serenity --around corners ignore total cover & concealment and pass Fickle Winds-- DC 33-to-35 vs. Will every round, and your 1600' vs. normal AC Stunning Fist DC 35-to-37 vs. Fort every round, and Paralyzing Fist DC 33-to-35, etc.
Last year August when Zilfrel started the thread about agreeing on Pathfinder Tier standards, a number of people proposed Tier 4 or in a couple cases even Tier 3 for some archetypes for Monk ...without this level of dipping for optimization and without the more recent splatbooks that make them stronger. Oracle 1 / Sensei X was called out, and ZAM, among others. Some of the people posting in this current thread over the past days/week, participated in that thread back then. And JaronK, who stewards the 3.5 Tier system now reposted at Brilliant Gameologists (...even if some argue he's not the "inventor" --whatever that means in collaborative creative space like forums...) also clearly indicated that wherever Tier a class generally fits in, within the normal Tier system, can generally be nudged up or down 1 Tier via optimization. That was 3.5, before archetypes and Paizo splats. And the archetypes change the classes a lot in some cases, or open up unusually advantageous mechanics in others (like Flurry of Maneuvers, or sharing Ki Powers, or Inescapable Grasp, etc).
I don't think overpowered is appropriate here. Certainly not my terminology.I was confused by your statement here:I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are. Yeah well most tables are not people building characters like this. They play a base class or archetype out of the book and don't know the Tier system even exists. But inevitably, when one or two of them stumbles across the Paizo forums, they see a pattern of postings that message consistent concepts: "martial vs. caster disparity", "monks suck", "wizards are gods", "blasting is weak", "succubus in a grapple", etc. For my part, I play a lot of public games, PFS tables or groups getting together of Meetup,com, whatever. And have a couple groups of regularly-gaming-friends that know each other as well. Most people seeing a Monk (that they heard "sucks") operating more capably than their Barbarian or Inquisitor (that they heard are "good") get weirded out or baffled, or sometimes upset. Anecdotally, in Philly area where I do much of my PFS there's large number of PFS regulars who sigh and complain whenever anyone brings a Zen Archer to the table (now that one was not my fault... that was someone else's. Turns out Trick Shot & a high mobility & perception, and other ZAM-tactics, makes "Chase scenes" largely an auto-win.) "Zen Archer is OP!!" is a common complaint at those PFS events, because the average player doesn't know what's possible even with the classes they took on their own characters. No idea what the less-informed locals would say if they saw someone bring a fully optimized Exploiter Wizard for high level play, but it'd probably be a a lot of boo'ing and hissing. FYI I love Philly and the regulars I play with there, many of whom I learned from and call friend. I'm not referring to them in all this. I don't think Zen Archer is OP. Or the monk based builds I posted in this thread, either. But a lot of tables of casual gamers sure would / do. -Goh
EDIT: PS - Robocop monk build I saw that I mentioned previously when you brought up your armored, weapon-using monk: Robocop Monk --reading this build early last year, and the defense of it in the rest of that thread, was what inspired me to look at the monk class all over again. For the first time since Carmendine Monk feat in 3.5 it started to look worthwhile to ask the questions "how can MAD be an advantage?" and "what else can be done to use Monk mechanics for Tier 3 results?"
PPS - I read over your armored monk build, and the upset one/some people had about wish loops / noble djinni or whatever, and setting aside for a moment the can-of-worms that is dabbling in the Wish economy of high level play, I think your build is pretty Boss. I was particularly impressed with how effective it is at 5th level, let alone the higher level stuff. Errata to Crane Style hurts it now though :-( but re-Errata un-nerfs that some :-)
That sounds awesome... I'd love to see it. One of the sickest monk builds I saw posted here on Paizo was the robocop build with katana, a prosthetic leg, and hungry ghost monk for crit-fishing Ki Leech and HP leech, conductive weapon for dipped Cleric 1 Repose domain to no-save Stagger BBEG's several times a day (monk so high Wisdom so decent number of uses per day).
Weapons are great. Ki Intensifying weapons make Stunning Fist and Touch of Serenity lower threshold for effectiveness in terms of getting the DC up. I don't like armor for defense on a monk though, I prefer it for utility or offense. I currently run a level 7 Monk-not-Monk in PFS (which I'll differ with you on, I like it and they do a lot of RAW things not just house rules) that's a melee debuffer maxing Dirty Trick and secondary is damage. Tiefling natural fighting Bloodrager (Steelblood) 1 / Monk (Maneuver Master, Four Winds, Qinggong) 1 / Brawler (Snakebite Strike) 1 / Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 3 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 1. I posted some of the build outline in another thread a couple days ago, I'll come back and Edit this if I find the link quick enough. From 8th on build goes to Lore Warden 2, Unchained Scout Rogue 1 (for free Shadow Strike and the 3d6 necessary for Surprise Maneuver), then Monk 2nd up to 5th, then Rogue 2nd up to 4th (for charging sneak and debilitating strike) if I play modules past 12th, then finishes with whatever if I actually run him up to 20th through Witchwar, Moonscar and Race for the Runecarved Key. Right now at 7th he manages to have great defense fighting unarmored by Mist forming his mistmail all day long for 20% miss chance to stack his Monk Wis to AC on it and Mage Armor from wands, and then air walks all combats using Cloudstep Slippers on his own mistmail. So he moves in 3 dimensions but without needing Fly checks. Walking around with concealment also nets him effectively HIPS. He fights like Jackie Chan, but with claws, gore and a bite. He gets a dirty trick check on every sneak attack, which is almost every attack since he can flurry of maneuvers - Dirty Trick Blind, before his full attack routine, so all his subsequent attack go against a blind opponent. For most enemies, his CMB is at "don't roll a 1". For BBEG enemies when playing up to Level 10/11 mode, he's usually at "Don't roll a 6 or less" even though he's only 7th lvl right now. He has backup plans for when that's not useful or he needs to move and attack. He uses Lunge and Grapple to freely reposition enemies before completing his full attack routine, if dirty trick isn't the best call. Often to a flanked/bad position. His rounds look like one or two enemies at a time Blind, Prone (if applicable), Entangled... and if only single enemy also Shaken and Sickened. If the enemies are all pretty controlled, he stops dropping his Sneak dice for Dirty Tricks and just does damage. Later he will have Gang Up and Press to the Wall synergizing to make him flank with 2 walls / trees / whatever (like in a narrow hallway, or in a corner), or, 1 actual and the floor, if play testing proves that he needs that. Possibly unnecessary.
Most people would say "that's not a monk" because he dips all over. *shrugs* good for them. I wanted to make a Jackie Chan type guy, I just found the mechanics to make it work. He'll be ~45% monk levels by the end of his standard PFS career, and down to 25% monk levels if I actually complete Seeker levels up through 20th.
Congratulations. Please, teach us the ways, sensei. I apologized for being a cocky @ss when I read back my post today, but it was too late to edit it. Or I would have. My personal issue is I default to cocky @ss, and have to work hard to reign that in. But hey, I'll admit it. And it doesn't make what I'm saying any less valid.
It's so sad to see people talking about tiers when they don't even know what they mean. :( Cute. .PFS doesn't really concern me as it's a mishmash of house rules and is not wholly compatible with even the core rulebook. We differ on this. I thoroughly enjoy PFS. .I'm also not very impressed with the unchained rogue. We also differ on this. .]Sword & board is my go-to melee style with most martials. I thought by this point that was public knowledge but I guess I've been away from the boards at the moment. I had no idea. .In any case, I really want to hear about these overpowered monks and fighters I don't think overpowered is appropriate here. Certainly not my terminology. But can several Monk archtypes and at least 1 Fighter archetype be built to Tier 3 performance?? Yes, with the current amount of Paizo splatbook resources available. I posted a rough outline of a 4 person Monk based party using some of those build strategies, over in the "D Team" thread that's currently running... OMFG that's -this- thread! Yeah just a few posts up. If you want to swap some fully detailed builds I'm willing to do so; I'd -love- to see your armored monk build.
A straw man is a claim that the adversary holds a position other than what he actually holds. No. Wikipedia: A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.
Seemed to me you purported to refute my argument that Paladin was not the only martial worth including, by attempting to disqualify my specific example of a sensei monk as "not a martial" through reframing. You did so by saying: "If you have the same BAB as a cleric and everything the class does involves a SLA you aren't proposing a martial." Perhaps that's not a Straw Man, but to me it sure looked like one. I wasn't arguing the definition of martial class or not martial class in my original post. I was arguing against Paladins being the only valid martial class for consideration in this inquiry. And by including a monk example as a swap for the -Bard- in the example lineup I was referencing, I showed that a different martial class (at least considered as such by overwhelming community consensus, even if you don't agree that monks are martial) can fill the -Bard's- role after a fashion; and that in this example it contributes at least as much as a Paladin can to the group, if not more so, were said Paladin swapped in for the Bard or any of the other casters in that lineup. Your statement: "If you have the same BAB as a cleric and everything the class does involves a SLA you aren't proposing a martial." ... is an opinionated assertion about whether or not my example qualifies as a martial, and one that includes a bunch of "spin" ('re-framing', for lack of a more sophisticated definition on my part), such as: 1. the assertion that a cleric's BAB somehow impacts the definition of "martial or not". That's a matter of your opinion, that's not a fact. "Martial class", not having been explicated by Paizo/WOTC/TSR as a game term with any solid standard definition, is instead left to be defined by the agreement/consensus of the entire community that uses it. A number of prestige classes with 3/4ths BAB are generally referred to as martial classes. Rogue is generally referred to as a martial class, at least with regards to its combat jobs. Animal racial HD, undead racial HD, monstrous humanoid racial HD, all give 3/4 BAB, and the creatures that sport those HD are heavy majority "melee combatants" which seems to be included in the set of things the entire community generally agrees belong to a "martial class." And more specifically with regards to the example in question: the greater community consensus is that despite Monks having a 3/4ths BAB, they are martial. That's actually part of the justification often used for explaining why "Monks suck"... they're a "martial" with a 3/4th's BAB.
Now this Sensei Monk build is a SAD Wisdom based melee-capable character with 2d6 base dmg weapon (maybe 3d6 if Impact AoMF or Bodywraps) and possibly Dex to damage from his amulet. His attack roll is reasonable due to being SAD and clever with items, and because he can True Strike himself as needed (not just his allies). He can debuff with his attacks as well. But... both damage, and debuff, are his [u]secondary[/u] jobs in this specific example, because of the inquiry we're in. His primary combat job is "Buff allies". And he's uniquely good at it among the martial classes, with sufficient system mastery on the player's part. If I as a player am crazy enough to get a few Bard-level results extracted from a "poorly built martial" chassis, good for me. Paladins, from the original argument I was having, are not as good at buffing allies as the Sensei. I'm not arguing that Paladins are bad. I'm arguing they are not the only martial class worth considering. It seems like straw man to me for you to attempt to invalidate my offering to the group conversation here by reframing monks as "not martial".
2. that using SLAs somehow impacts the definition of "martial or not" A lot of classes use SLAs. Paladins, for example, have actual spells... not merely SLAs. Paladins were the martial class cited by the poster who's point I was arguing against. So apparently a class with Spells can still be referenced as martial. SLA's are less "caster" than actual Spell casting. Even vanilla fighters can take feats or traits that grant them SLAs. That doesn't make them not martial anymore. Again we run into the consensus definition of martial. And as I pointed out in my original response to your argument on this matter, monks and indeed this Sensei monk specifically have abilities that are Ex, Su and SLA. Not solely SLA. Which leads to the point below...
3. the exaggerated-to-an-absurdity frame in your phrasing "everything the class does is an SLA" No. It uses touch of Serenity at a very high DC to Debuff. Not an SLA. It uses Ki to grant a Feat to itself to all allies. Not an SLA. It uses Ki to increase it's Dodge bonus from time to time. Not an SLA. It uses it's unarmed strike to do damage from time to time. Not an SLA. It uses Advice to grant bardic performance bonuses, and that ability is typed Ex... not an SLA. It uses skills to solve problems and social encounters. Not an SLA. Does it use SLAs. Yes. But it does not use only SLAs. And SLAs are not the only thing it does to contribute.
Bandw2 asserts the fallacy in question was No True Scottsman: also Wikipedia: No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. ... Bradley Dowden explains the fallacy as an “ad hoc rescue” of a refuted generalization attempt ... the following is an example of the fallacy: Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Maybe this was the fallacy rather than straw man, you're probably more savvy on these terms of art than I am. I said in my original posting in question the equivalent of "Paladin is not the only martial class to consider, here's a Monk that could sub for a Bard in that lineup". To which Atarlost replied essentially "your example was not a martial class". To me that seems like a straw man, but maybe it's actually "No true martial class could actually substitute for a Bard" or "No true martial class could have that many SLA's" or "No true martial class could contribute primarily by doing something other than DPR." In the end it doesn't matter which fallacy it is. It's still fallacy.
. This was awesome, guide-worthy. Maybe the Fire Mountain Games guys would link to it --there's a set of suggestions in their "Way of the Wicked" AP for running an all wizard party as an alternative setup for the entire AP, but as of now it's really only GM tips not really any player coaching. Thank you for posting this!! I will be forwarding link to non-forum-lurking friends.
...it was late night and I was being a cocky @ss when I wrote, apologies for my tone. Mistmail is only the 5' cube you're standing in... no concealment penalties for you. Goz mask isn't a bad choice for D team all around anyway, if DM chose to fiat the fog rules that way. And yes, if they can force you into another suit of armor some how, or force you underwater, it reforms. Still at 2250gp it's an acceptable level of risk. Sohei can still flurry in light armor so he only looses some AC from that problem. ZAM suffers until he offloads the reformed armor, for full attacks. He's by no means ineffectual though even then. Sensei isn't flurrying anyway, but loses AC. Rogue, well, depending on if he took Maneuver Master or not he may or may not rock mistmail... but Flurry of maneuvers isn't stopped by armor anyway, so again its only AC loss. Actually the biggest loss if Mistmail goes down is the Cloudwalking stops working until you don one of your backup mistmails and reactivate -/which costs actions. Look... it ain't perfect. But its D Team issues. --like this has to play way different. They probably use 25% consumables, not 10%. They burn a wand of mage armor on every module, maybe more than one. 750gp at 17th level is a reasonable small component of "cost of doing business" for a module-sized quest. Because reliance on consumables is high, wealth for static items is lower... so the players must maximize their value for their expenses in order to have a real crack at something like Witchwar, with no real casters to deal with, say, Minor Spoiler...
To say nothing of the enemy casters. So yeah, every dirty trick in the book in terms of low cost, high octane gear would be a pre-requisite for a real shot at a true "D-Team" (like not Inquisitors or Bards, seriously) succeeding in that kind of "fish out of water" setup. Where I got triggered in the ganging up going on earlier in this thread was the whole "only rogues can buy high wealth items" paradigm, which isn't actually true, and, also isn't actually a game-ender even if it -was- true, But to speak to the point brought up in those posts that a class/build's ability to utilize their wealth/gear is a contributing factor to that class/build's viability (I'm paraphrasing), well, I agree on the premise sure, but not the verdict in that example. BMC isn't as valuable as being able to utilize cheaper items to greater effect than other classes, -ESPECIALLY- in a scenario like this where your party will need a lot of (expensive) consumables to reasonably operate (a 17th level "high magic" module when you have no full / real casters.). Mage Armor wands maybe cheap, but 3rd & 4th level spell wands not so much, nor mandatory scrolls or their replacements. Scrying or Greater, other divinations, Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment, Raise/Rez, maybe even Planeshift and Planar Adaptation, etc... stuff's going to be necessary the way a 17th level mod is written and these guys are going to have to cough up the cash from out of their WBL to do it. So, they go to the Dollar Store and the Consignment shop to buy their gear, and the players must get real creative. -Goh
... With a party of four wizards, you have to have a GM that goes out of the way to design encounters which won't TPK them. **summons Troll** ...ummm... then those 4 players need to go back to Wizard school or something, or they are new to d20 RPG and should learn to drive on a nice & safe Volvo, not a Mazerrati.
**banishes Troll**
...seriously though, 4 wizards at level 1 is mostly only hard on newer players to this system (as in specific system mastery, even if they are veterans of RP in general)... unless you are playing with severe spell book restrictions, Words of Power instead of normal magic, or something else unusual. There's a lot of specific examples in 4 Wizards Party thread. This is not that thread. This is Most Well Rounded... which, as has been pointed out, is actually 4 female Bloatmages. Most. Well. Rounded. Big. Bloatmage. Wizard. Fear the Four BBW's!!
**smacks down the Troll that snuck out again**
If you have the same BAB as a cleric and everything the class does involves a SLA you aren't proposing a martial.I don't think there's any room for any martial except maybe paladin. . Lol, a straw man argument, irrelevant. Also very literally factually untrue --monk, Sensei and Drunkemaster and Qinggong (and four winds) all have Ex, Su AND SLAs. Monks are martial, Unchained or not, and have access to SLAs. Rogues have access to SLAs, Slayer(Stygian) as well, even damn Winding Path Renegade brawler can steal some Monkishness. Bloodrager is wierdly a caster but also very strong martial, what a lucky guy!
++1 this for Tier 3 group! Human Hunter (eye for talent +2 Int from level 1) w/ Tyrannosaurus sporting Combat Reflexes, it's large sized 10' Reach, the Lunge Feat and Final Embrace (qualifies via Anacondas Coils...) would add sick Grappling and Movement control. And with Constrict he's doing basically double damage on every big bite... much better than vital strike cause it works on charges too. I don't know much about Magus personally, but I keep hearing "Staff Magus can be Tier 2." Might need to avoid that archetype if that's true...? What kind of Magus for this, Hex Magus? They are pretty strong but not Tier 2.
anytime you start talking magic items the class competition goes out the window. You may as well say fighters and barbs are crap because they'll never get magic items, either...so it's a fallacy. Man, you really should get out more. Do you like, not dip anything with Barb or Fighter or something? Are your Monks and Rogues all pure classed? I get banned from playing monks at most tables cause people get upset at how unbalancing / effective they are. It's actually funny cause those same people usually just read one of the "monks suck" posts on these forums, and never even new what was possible. Especially if I roll one of the archtypes that can hit Tier 3, like Sensei, Zen Archer, Tetori or Maneuver Master. FFS you're saying "Fighters are crap"... ummm, right. Lore Warden hits tier 3. Titan Fighter is just... interesting; I haven't fully tested it out, but it opens up some options. Unchained Rogue is very, very good. Old Rogue? Doo doo. Black Market Connections doesn't do much good if you are dead, or couldn't get the wealth to spend in the first place. Core Rogue is way worse than Core Fighter -- try playing some PFS Core Only and see how it rolls out, it ain't pretty. Sword & Board Fighter, as loathed as it is, actually doesn't lose much being stuck with core since a lot of the shield feats are there. Core Rogue looses pretty much everything that attempts to fix that class.
HERE'S MY D-TEAM, NO "6th+ SPELL LEVEL" CASTERS AT ALL, AT 17th LEVEL, FTW IN YOUR WITCHWAR PLAYTEST
A) SKILL TRICKS Mc'SHANKER -- THE CORPSE v3.75 Unchained edition Half-Elf Unchained Thug Scout Rogue 8 / Lore Warden Fighter 5 / Strangler Brawler 2 / Bounty Hunter Slayer 2.
B) DAMAGE INCORPORATED -- THE BSF v3.75 GH edition
C) SHIDOSHI SENZO TANAKI TEACH YOU THE DIM MAK -- THE "GOD" .MONK. Bloodsport edition
D) ONE
Human or Aasimar (Garudakin) or Tiefling (Oni spawn) Zen Archer QG Monk 17, worships his bow. ...then, substitute Paralyzing Fist for Vital Strike, Touch of Serenity for Imp. Vital Strike, and Stunning first for something else. Pickup Mantis Style earlier, and take Quivering Palm Adept. This guy has Ki Focus Bow. He hits, stuns / makes impotent / paralyzes / kills everything that moves. From up to 1600 feet away, around hard corners and over ceilings, ignores Total Cover and total Concealment, and doesn't even need a cyclonic bow to beat Fickle Winds. On the non-damage-requiring debuffs, he uses Tangleshot arrows to target Touch AC, which cuts his max range down to a paltry 800'... shoot. Haha, get it? WTF. * Oh yeah, he uses the same exact Mistmail & Cloudstep Slippers combo as Damage Incorporated above, cause hey, he's a monk. ===== Do they have some holes? Sure. Can they rock a mod at 17th with this "D" team? More than most. If you think they need even more punch, have Shidoshi Senzo Tanaka give up some of his unlimited self healing and switch from worshipping Cayden Cailen to Brigh. He will take Evangelist of Brigh, so he only ever his 16th Monk (losing out on 2 QG powers he could be sharing... that's costly) but he now gets a 1/day Timestop SLA, a 1/day affect a construct with a mind affecting schtick, Jury Rig 3/day or some such, and +4 Disable device. Personally I don't think it's worth it just for 1 Timestop a day, but it's possible if necessary. Likewise, you could tweak Skill Tricks McShanker by dropping his Grappling backup plan (and the 2 levels of Strangler) to pickup Unchained Rogue 10 and take the advanced ninja Trick "Invisible Blade", for some Greater Invisibility fun. His ki pool is small, BUT SHIDOSHI CAN SHARE HIS KI POINTS SO WHO CARES. Depends if you plan to buy him a Anaconda's Coils and take Final Embrace or not... you know, for "grab & go" combats & missions. If you do stick with grappling as one of his secondary jobs, remember he definitely wants Bushwhack... cause nothing says "Gotchya' sucka'!" like applying the Pinned condition in the Surprise round. OR, alternatively, you could drop it for 2 levels of... you guessed it, Monk baby! In this case Maneuver Master. Now he can pull the same Mistmail & Cloudstep slippers shenanigans as the rest of the bunch (who needs Fly?), and, he can Dirty Trick (Blind) as a Flurry of Maneuvers, before making any other attacks on a full attack, as just another way of Blinding people and ensuring his sneak attack / chain Dirty Trick routine works. ===== All this stupid talk about wealth limits, when some of the most OP items in the game cost less than 5K... Our Tieflings? They got Grasping Tail feat and hold Padma Blossoms. All characters: Slot ioun stone Clear Spindle. Now immune to mind affecting basically. Everybody owns a Clockwork Key for 500 gold... now Constructs ignore them usually. Slotless item too. Anyone who ever fights unarmed (like Senzo Tanaka) wears Dustknuckles, for DC 20 reflex or Blind on the first 2 unarmed attacks of every combat... total cost? 25p (that's right, twenty five... gp) for the gloves, and 50gp per combat for the dust. Skill Tricks McShank buys 10 doses of Tracking Powder for 30p. Each dose adds +10 to his survival check, which stacks with the +5 from his 3500p sense of detection (that is also upping his Perception by +5). No wealth limit issues here. Bracers of armor? Pffff, wtf are those...?!
Everybody has 3 or 4 Swiftrunner Shirts at 1k each. AKA outsourced Pounce. Everyone except Senzo Tanaka that is, he prefers the newer chest slot item that trades Moves for Swifts instead, so he can "Ki it up" more, so he grabs a couple of those (2k each). The only "expensive" item in the group is a Big F'in Nodachi for Damage Incorporated. And frankly everything on that blade is optional, since he worships Falayna and can Greater Magic Weapon +4 his own sword every day for 17 hours. *shrugs* Ok I'm done now. EDIT: Correct some spelling (prob not all of it, I'm tired).
I really really want to see this in play now. Though I would totally go the Conjuration route with potent magic snowball since you'll need potent magic later on anyway. Hehe, yeah, if you go that route, you can later take Geyser as a Perfected Water based Conjuration spell to still get the +1 DC from Affinity of the Elements, and the +'s from your Sp Foc Conj type stuff.. M.Lineage'd Dazing Persistent Geyser is really, really bad news. You might even want to get Widening on a MM Rod if you have the tons of cash for that, in case you need to daze like everybody in the enemy's army at once or something.
...I dont' see how "without a smorgasbord of cheese" is a valid disqualifier in this discussion, at all. .I'd rather have 2 Wizards (one Exploiter, one Conjuration:Teleportation OR Diviner), 1 Cleric (Evangelist w/ Glory domain and Sacred Summons) and the aforementioned Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk, personally. There is no spell substitute for "cast True Strike on Every ally in 30' as a standard action". ...nor is there a spell substitute for Standard Action (Staff) Empowered Sacred Summon Good Monster 150%*(1d4+2) Shield Archons w/ a Swift Action Mass Heroism on them all, and then the Monk from example above says "Battlemind Link them all too!" as a Standard and then "Dim.Door them all to the best locations" as a Move action and "Give them all __[INSERT USEFUL Qinggong]____ feat" as a Free action. He used his Swift action on Advice if it wasn't up already.
Attack their wealth. Have them lose stuff by dealing with a pack or three of well informed, divination prepared enemies that are very good at Disarm and Steal, and then D.Door / Teleporting. They can drop clues and such to bait the PC's into chasing after them... right into a very well prepared ambush.
Another way to attack their wealth is to make it naturally their decision to use it on expendable things. That takes some storyline engineering -- in a high wealth game I'm running, I balance it some by making it obvious that if the PCs don't spend a substantial amount of wealth on their followers/armies, those followers/armies will lose in the mass combats. So yes, they just scored 250K in wealth. But they need to spend 50% of it or more to revitalize their entire army's depleted resources, raise key followers, and otherwise equip them.
Last but not least, you can limit wealth power creep by limiting crafting. Crafting doubles magical wealth and triples mundane wealth, in general. Take away crafting time, or remove crafting feats like PFS does. It helps.
I don't think there's any room for any martial except maybe paladin. . I beg to differ. Can swap out a Bard for a dwarven Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk w/ fast drinker, deep drinker, and that whole line of stuff. Basically unlimited Ki; starting at 12th level, he gives all of his allies w/in 30' True strike every round (like all your summons Mr. Sacred Summoner), or he can use Restoration w/ zero real cost on all allies w/in 30' all day long, or have every summon, allied villager and follower use a CL 12+ Scorching Ray at the same time... At level 19 he pulls the same stunt with Dragon Breath. Even if that's just 10 to 15 minor summons you flood the field with... 10 to 15 x 20d6 is a crap-ton of damage. He can Shadowwalk the entire party all day long, and/or Dimension Door them all (as a move action) all day long. Ever wanted to see what happens when your Cleric/Druid/Arcane types summon in 5 or 6 Fiendish Dire Crocodiles, and a gaggle of Rocs (or Vrocks?), and then your Sensei Monk gives them -ALL- Battlemind Link in a single round?? Cause you can. Monks, who knew.
ALTERNATIVE: Go Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds Qinggong. Now you can spend a bunch of Ki to Slow Time for everyone... give all your meat shields 3 standard actions on their turn. Like the dozen Elder Earth Elementals all the casters just summoned, Bullrushing 3 times each in 1 round... ...it'd be kind of like watching old Football games where John Riggins just keeps running down the field while 3 Miami dolphins are hanging off of him like squirrels on a tree. OR the "Refrigerator" Perry mowing through the whoever was stupid enough to be in front of him... in triple time.
I posted an alternate Level 1 Blaster wizard in another thread, again assuming the PFS swap (Spell Focus for Scribe Scroll) is allowed. Here's the meat of it -- adjusted for 15 PB and ROTRL -- if you want a Force Mage variant of the guy from earlier in this thread: ===================
Traits: Outlander (Magic Missile, Battering Blast, Telekinetic Sphere... or maybe Bigby's Raised Middle Finger), Wayang Spellhunter (Magic Missile)
Spells / Day:
...Boost that CMB by +1 if he burns Arcane point. A +10 or +11 trip at 1st level, from a distance, is awesome. * Mage Armor or something else x1
OR this guy could ditch Toppling Spell for Potent Magic, and use his 3 Arcane points to make his 3 magic missiles all hit CL 7... at 1st level... that's 4d4+4 force damage auto hit from 170'. In this case he's ditching Wayang spell hunter for another trait, like say Student of Philosophy, or maybe plain old Reactionary.
ALTERNATIVELY, this guy (or girl, ok) could ave gone with Snowball (and Conj) instead of Magic missile (and Evoc), ditched Toppling Spell for Reach spell, and at 1st level be doing 5d6 Snowballs at 150' range, with save DC 17 or be staggered. OR, he could stick with short range, and add 1 to his DC via Affinity of the Elements (Water) swapped in for Wayang Spellhunter, and another +2 to his DC via Potent Magic (he would ditch Reach Spells) for a Snowball 5d6 at 35' range w/ DC 20 or Stagger. ...but then he wouldn't be a Force mage, would he? =============================== At 5th level, this guy takes Additional Traits for Magical Lineage (Battering Blast), and Fate's Favored. For future Exploits, think Dimensional Slide, Potent Magic, Greater MM Knowledge, etc. Also, he is going to worship Rovavgug. At 16th level, he will retrain a less important feat to be Deific Obedience Rovagug so he can get +4 to the Save DC of his blasts and preroll any 1's on the dice, and +8 to the DC of his Perfected Blast (still Battering Blast). If Retraining is not allowed, he will have to suck it up and take that feat way before it's useful to him... oh well. Last but not least, he will certainly take the Arcane Discovery "Creative Destruction" anytime after getting his Battering Blast up to par. This way he (over)heals himself every time he blasts the living sh_t out of everything that moves and subsequently Bullrushes it 10 to 15 squares away and knocks it Prone. His Force damage with Battering Blast may get up to around 800 against a single target at level 20, along with a CMB +90 or +100 Bullrush check, depending on how much he can jack his Caster Level.
. He will also spend his long nights dreaming about how, in an alternate universe, he could have dipped Tattoed Orc sorcerer to raise his damage up more, and save some feats, averaged about 1000-1200 Force damage/round against single targets, and otherwise made a more valiant effort to fill the shoes of his 3.5 godfather, The Mailman.
Unchained Rogue +1. Unchained Rogue Thug Scout to be precise. Tr: One of the traits that gives +1 dmg when flanking OR one of the ones that gives +1 to hit when sneak attacking (like The Vessel Between), Ancestral Weapon (Silver): gain a free Masterwork silver dagger and +1 to hit with all alch. silver weapons. 1: oh hey look, finesse and shadow strike are already covered by the class, so.... Two Weapon Fighting
So far your "spells" are only a swift action vanish for 5 rounds... but that's pretty boss. And as mentioned by others previously, Minor magic and Major magic rogue talents are available.
Sorry, Gifted Adept, not Magical Knack.I'm okay with Gifted Adept. It only applies to 1 spell and can't be retrained. So either you use it early and it quickly ceases being useful, you use it late which means you've effectively given up a trait for half the game or you compromise and use it for a level 3 spell and try to find a way to keep that spell relevant later on in the game. . Ehhh... just to play devil's munchkin advocate here... Gifted Adept (or it's regional analogue, Secret of the Impossible Kingdom) can be retrained if you took it with the Additional Traits feat. The caster level boosting feats most obviously help Blaster mages, though obvisouly summoners see a huge benefit at levels 1-3 when summoning duration is a problem. I think these feats are very powerful if you can grab them in that1st - 3rd level range, perhaps overpowering. They are decent later.
** And oh yeah, in PFS, human wizards get Spell Focus free instead of Scribe Scroll, so they can actually rock all that stuff at 1st level (well, not spell perfection lol, but the rest).
EXAMPLES: PFS Human Wizard (Exploiter) 1
Traits: Gifted Adept (Magic Missile), Wayang Spellhunter (Magic Missile)
Spells / Day:
OR this guy could ditch Toppling Spell for Potent Magic, and use his 3 Arcane points to make his 3 magic missiles all hit CL 7... at 1st level... that's 4d4+4 force damage auto hit from 170'. In this case he's ditching Wayang spell hunter for another trait, like say Student of Philosophy, or maybe plain old Reactionary.
ALTERNATIVELY, this guy (or girl, ok) could ave gone with Snowball (and Conj) instead of Magic missile (and Evoc), ditched Toppling Spell for Reach spell, and at 1st level be doing 5d6 Snowballs at 150' range, with save DC 17 or be staggered. OR, he could stick with short range, and add 1 to his DC via Affinity of the Elements swapped in for Wayang Spellhunter, and another +2 to his DC via Potent Magic (he would ditch Reach Spells).
Human sorcerer with these feats is also very nasty at 1s level. Orc Bloodline Human Tattooed Sorc 1 w/ Gifted Adept trait, Havoc of the Society trait, Sp. Foc, Spell Special (and gets Varisian for Free) is doing 3d4+7 force dmg 4 to 6 times per day from 150 feat. Or if he chooses Burning hands thats 5d4+6 dmg in 15' cone, or with Snowball 5d6+6 dmg ranged touch inside of 35' w/ the fort save vs stagger.
That disparity becomes much less dramatic around 5th / 6th level, but until then, yeah, bad news. This is part of the reason why when people say "casters suck at low level" I have to shake my head slowly and walk away. If they only knew. -Goh
++ 1 for Something's cooking -- that was frickin' awesome! Best moment: Rogue sneaks around and stabs the thing with a rapier, Calzone golem spurts piping hot marinara sauce on everyone adjacent for burn damage... with basil. FO' real.
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