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JuanAdriel: E6 works quite well with ABP, though you might have to house rule away the ability to craft super high level equipment by adding +5 to the roll.
The Dragon: There are several versions of E6; the one I prefer foregoes all the "leaning forward" feats that grant level 7+ class abilities. The game really doesn't need all that jazz. If people are really itching for all those powers, why play E6 at all?
JuanAdriel: E6 works quite well with ABP, though you might have to house rule away the ability to craft super high level equipment by adding +5 to the roll.
The Dragon: There are several versions of E6; the one I prefer foregoes all the "leaning forward" feats that grant level 7+ class abilities. The game really doesn't need all that jazz. If people are really itching for all those powers, why play E6 at all?
Personally, I think some of the effects are nice to have availible, in very limited ways. Also, I think the ability to feel like you have something that's hard to get is important. 'Epic' abilities let you have this aspect, without having to deal with 4th and especially 5th level spells.
Shadow - my issue with Level 8 is that 4th level spells are where I find things start to break a bit. They are for a lot of combat purposes not as good as 3rd level in a lot of occasions but for plot breaking and such it starts to break down here.
A quick list of 4th level spells (all core) which illustrate this: (note some of them are 'cool' but to me often feel like they should be more of a plot device or something that's more situational)
Scrying
Divination
Tongues
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Lesser GeasScrying isn't too bad without 5th level spells but it does ruin a lot of different plot ideas and areas. If you went to 10th level though it gets pretty bad - Scry and Fry enters.
Divination just bypasses mysteries at times. You can work on riddles and such but if the Gods *want* to help their subject it doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have rules for cosmology.
Tongues is another mystery cracker and personally my feeling is if it obligatory to the situation that they *must* learn to speak with them there should be another way. But then - I change Comprehend Language to be like Jump for any game I think thats going to come up (+10 to linguistics checks +20 at 5th etc and lets you make the check untrained).
Black Tentacles is just a whole combat ender. An I win button a lot of the time.
Dimension Door's issue is the fact with decent range (720 at level 8 ) you can move without line of sight or effect. So it can bypass whole regions and such. Not as egregious as Teleport and less combat useful due to the fact it ends the turn but still a long range no-sight-required teleport. (On another note - Wizards at mid-levels who aren't ethically constrained don't really have to worry about money with spells like teleport and DD. I mean unless you get someone to make an anti-teleport magic item for your room/house, they can just hop in, steal what they need and be out in under 30 seconds).
Lesser Geas is up there as its a weaker dominate type effect. Whereas Charm Person...
exactly how many 4th level spells do they get at level 8 tho?
exactly how many 4th level spells do they get at level 8 tho?
Clerics get All Of Them.
Wizards get All of them light.
Sorcs and friends get 1, sucks to be them. Do note that the exchange rate for spells known of the highest level is 1/feat, however, so this is not entirely true.
One way to solve this issue is to give 4th level slots, but not 4th level spells. The slots are then used for metamagic. In such a case, I'd likely give Heighten Spells for free.
For half-casters, such as bards, you could also give 3rd level slots, but not 3rd level spells.
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Another raise thread --
-- my friends and I in Philly started a P8 campaign world at the beginning of the year. We have been adapting the P6 codex, and a little of PFS ideas, so we have a "persistent world" where we have now 3 groups of PCs (A, B and C teams) that are all in the same storyline, but spread out in terms of levels.
My site updates were slack starting around June, but you can see what it's like here:
We round robin DM. So, someone feels like running a 4th level mod, we got B Team. Our A Team group is all in the middle of a 7th level mod, and they are about to hit level cap at 8th, and then start to go wide with feats.
We also threw together a C Team of already high level PCs (8th level +20 feats) so we could try playing some of the great level 11 and 12 scenarios and modules and see if we survive, TPK, or even do well.
We handle rules adjudication by "unanimous minus 1" voting standards (so nobody can filibuster). We tweak / adjust published scenarios and modules into our own loosely connected storyline, with individual group members building out persistent story arcs as inspiration allows.
So far it's been an f'in awesome experience.
We're open to some new players, if anybody reading things is in the Philly / suburbs areas -- feel free to PM me.
You know, those E8 arguments really did a lot to make me convert... to E4.
E4?
What are the best reasons for E4 over E6 or E8?
E4?
What are the best reasons for E4 over E6 or E8?
Many argue that E8 is a more natural cut-off than E6, because many classes get a special ability at that level, and few get one at level 6. But in that regards, level 4 is similar to level 8, in that it also gives more special abilities than level 6 does.
Barbarien: doesn't really matter, 4, 6, and 8 are equally logical. Odd numbers actually more logical cut-offs for barbs.
Bard: They get level 2 spells at lvl 4. 6 and 8 give them new abilities.
Cleric: 8 gives them domain powers. 4 and 6 have nothing special.
Druid: 4 is where you get wild shape. 6 and 8 you just get more of it.
Fighter: They get their special abilities at odds levels, mostly, like barbarians. 4 only gives them armor training, 6 also gives them weapon training, 8 allows him to move full speed in heavy armor.
Monk: 4 is where you start getting ki pool and slow fall and d8 unarmed damage. By 6 you have a few more special abilities, not much more by 8.
Paladin: 4 you get your channel. 6 you get divine bond and mercy. 8 you get aura of resolve.
Ranger: by 4 you get most of your abilities. 6 just gives you a bit more. Woodland stride and swift tracker by 8.
Rogue: by 4th you get uncanny dodge and a few talents. 6 just gives you a bit more. 8 gives you improved uncanny dodge.
Sorcerer: You start getting bloodline powers and spells at lvl 3. 6th and 8th don't really give you much more special things, just more spells.
Wizard: Not much special at lvl 4 and 6. 8 gives you a school power.
Honestly, in the end, it's pretty close. The "best" cut-off varies a lot by class.
I'd allow improving BAB by +2 with a feat or two, though, to grant martials that second attack. I already grant that in the e6 game I run.
I don't like high levels for a lot of reasons. And that's as much as a player than as a GM. As a player, I always feel the need to super specialize just to compete and be useful, which usually yields large weaknesses that get my characters die all the time. I don't like the rocket tag feel of high level. As GM, I feel I can create much more complex challenging and a better narrative without having simply a wizard undermine all challenges. At level 6 (or even more at lvl 4), I feel that with the proper numbers, equipment, and terrain, level 1 and 2 foes can pose a serious threat to the PCs, I can keep the world feeling real with mobs of low-skill foes as challenging enemies, instead of suddenly having all enemies they face magically scale to their own level. I also like not having to memorize every single spell, and think of every single counter, to make reasonable challenges and locations. At low levels I can let them surprise me, without going "well, IC, anyone with the slightest intellect would have thought to counter *that*", while spamming a million protection spells.
I've never liked power creep. Be it in movies or in games.
Good reasoning, Goblin_Priest.
That's part of the reason I fell for the original E6 for the game inside the world's most popular roleplaying game before Pathfinder came out.
Even now, it's hard to get players to commit to the idea of a level cap. So, I generally use a slower XP progression because we all enjoy low level play.
I'm seeing a lot of speculation, but not much real experience running P6 so far. I'm actually running a PbP here on the boards that has been using the P8 system for a year now. We're at 6+2 (old skool nod) with the bonus Feat earned every 8,000 xp. Just for fun, I also grant a flat 1 hp and 1 skill point with a limit of 6 ranks without a feat to allow higher rank level.
As far as I can tell, my players are enjoying it and I'm a lot happier as a GM. I've always ended games around L10 just because it gets dull- BAB outraces AC and it's all down to DPR, spells nuke everything. I've even crunched APs down so they wrapped up by L10 and things still got tedious a ways before the finale.
For those pushing P8, I'd say that you do end up around that power level eventually with Epic feats, but you have to earn it. The main reason I went with P6 is that I want to stretch this game out and enjoy it without all the silliness that comes from the space race. For one thing, skill challenges are still believable. Another, adventurers can still get over their head. It's just better fun for us.
I'm "running an E6" campaign in the sense that I told my players the game caps at level 6. Their characters, but also the game world. Level six characters are stuff of legend, the greatests ever to have walked the world, level 5 are likely the greatest alive, and level 4 are likely the greatest in great swaths of land.
Which is a huge change from what they were used to (games that go from lvl 1-3 to 20), and some were skeptical at first, but things are going rather well.
But that being said, they are still just level 2. So while the E6 definitely has impacts on the game, every NPCs being scaled accordingly (random enemies are often just level 1 conscripted commoners, highly trained soldiers just having 1 level or 2 in a PC class, as opposed to your standard world with lvl 20 aristocrat kings and lvl 10 warrior captain of the guards), I have no experience with post-cap progression (earning extra feats past level 6).
I'm also planning on giving them some mythic tiers, but I've seen how ridiculous that can get, so I'll likely homebrew it a fair deal and moderate how much of it they get.
You know, those E8 arguments really did a lot to make me convert... to E4.I've played with a number of GMs that START homebrew campaigns at level 4...
Ive been playing DnD on and off for maybe 17 years, I've played games that start at different levels, including epic or almost, but most of our games started no higher than level 3. The starting sweet spot varies from player to player. Some players like having a bunch of crazy abilities, some GM like to throw dragons and badass OP bosses at the PCs, others like the feeling of accomplishment from bringing a character all the way from the bottom to the top, 1-20. To each their own. I preffer lower powered games as both a PC and GM, and while I like the idea of it this is the first time E4 crossed my mind.
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I was in a rotating DM E6 game for over two years and it was probably the best gaming experience I've had in 30+ years. We each had a few characters (only one at a time, though) but some of them got up to E6+10. We did bonus feats beyond 6th level at 3xp each (1xp per game session, like FPS does it).
Here are the two things I enjoyed most about it:
1) It vastly simplified, streamlined, and sped up the game. We got two or three battles in each session on occasion!
2) It gave us all a new appreciation for high-level magic. Most people don't realize this, but E6 doesn't mean all spells of 4th level and above disappear; they're just not available for players to have reliable, easy access to. As a DM, you can still hand out scrolls, potions, and even stuff like wands with high-level spell effects. Doing so just keeps them limited and valuable. We must have carried around that scroll of raise dead for six months of real world time before we finally had to use it!
Is anyone still working on this? I found the P6 pdf website, but it doesn't seem to have progressed much in the past couple of years. I'm looking for a low power P6 with psionics and magic for a post-apocalypse campaign I'm trying to start.
Is anyone still working on this? I found the P6 pdf website, but it doesn't seem to have progressed much in the past couple of years. I'm looking for a low power P6 with psionics and magic for a post-apocalypse campaign I'm trying to start.
Personally, I'd go with 'level capped at 6, bonus feat every further 5k XP' and call it a day. As a player, I would probably agree to a game capped at level 6, but the houserules (P6 codex) would turn me off.
Personally, rather than re-working half of Pathfinder's classes to work at E6, I'd recommend going E8. A lot of the classes hit a sweet spot there, full BAB are hitting harder with power attack, middle BAB are hitting twice, casters have 4th level spells (powerful, but not game breaking like teleport and save or die).
E8 I would be okay with, but E6 hurts a lot of classes that have abilities coming online at 7th level.
Fighters for example: no 30' move in heavy armor in E6.
And yes, I understand why 6th was chosen as the cutoff. It is a sweet spot for full BAB martials while limiting clerics and wizards to 3rd level spells.
I always thought E7 was a better stopping point for Pathfinder than 6 because you get one final feat at that point and the very beginnings of 4th level spells.
Still E6 is still a great stopping place if you don't want to allow 4th level spells into he mix, which start to become really really good like Greater Invisibility and Evard's Black Tentacles. I usually allow for Epic feats to allow the casting of one or two 4th level spells. But the adventurers are taking on significant threats then too.
I think it's fairly standard to make a lot of the next level of class features (like armor training 2, Sorcerer bloodline power) an Epic feat.
Personally, rather than re-working half of Pathfinder's classes to work at E6, I'd recommend going E8. A lot of the classes hit a sweet spot there, full BAB are hitting harder with power attack, middle BAB are hitting twice, casters have 4th level spells (powerful, but not game breaking like teleport and save or die).E8 I would be okay with, but E6 hurts a lot of classes that have abilities coming online at 7th level.
Fighters for example: no 30' move in heavy armor in E6.
And yes, I understand why 6th was chosen as the cutoff. It is a sweet spot for full BAB martials while limiting clerics and wizards to 3rd level spells.
That's not true. It just makes it pricier: a mithral full plate would allow you full speed movement.
Any odd level cut-off instantly kills ever caster class that gets their new spell slots at even levels. Who would play a sorcerer, an oracle, or an arcanist, for example, if you knew you'd miss out on lvl 4 spells you'd get as a wizard or cleric? Even level cut-offs allow for greater caster choices.
I personally find E8 much better than E7, though favor E6 over both, and possibly E4 as well.
I always thought E7 was a better stopping point for Pathfinder than 6 because you get one final feat at that point and the very beginnings of 4th level spells.Getting rid of dope 4th-level spells is more or less the whole point of E6. Feats are easy enough to award.
it's not just feats though, many class features get a nice feature at 7th level. And lets not kid ourselves into thinking that E6 is somehow a magical balancing trick.
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it's not just feats though, many class features get a nice feature at 7th level.
Many classes get a nice feature at every level; in fact, virtually all of them do.
E6 emphasizes LoTR-style grittiness and realism (within the fantasy context). Keeping out Black Tentacles, Scry, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, and such-like is the first order of business in creating a down-to-earth immersive campaign that can be easily run by a dabbler/home-brew GM.
And let's face it: the biggest problem these games have is not enough GMs.
I ran an E8 campaign that lasted 4 years. I liked it.
We also gave the players lots of goodies. I don't like handing out bonuses, but I like giving out new special abilities, or magic items that do things the character normally couldn't.
Also, for funsies, right before the climax of the campaign, I gave them all 9th level. The players who were there the most were roughly 8^10 (ie, 10 feats). At two points there was even a chance for a character to earn a mythic rank (only the 1 total, maybe 2 if he had nabbed both), though he never knew it at the time.
I didn't run any of the standard E6/E8 feats for bonuses. What I did do was make custom feats for characters who wanted to lean up for a couple abilities. Or for one character I let him take feats to increase his effective level because he had multiclassed, but the multiclass was iconic for the campaign world, so it made sense that he should be able to meld the two more effectively (essentially add 1/2 his levels from the other class to determine his effective level for abilities, each feat applied to 1-2 abilities for 1 class).
I found E8 very easy to manage. None of the spells were game breaking. Incidentally, we had played a previous campaign in the same campaign world with much higher level characters (ended around level 16). Part of what we had done was to say that because of previous events, some of the "spark" had gone out of the world and no one had been able to replicate the abilities of heroes from past generations, but it meant that there were items/individuals from past eras who were above level 8. So when the wizard found a book of spells going up to 6th level, we let him cast them as either scrolls (with chance of failure) or rituals, but the rituals were difficult DC's, required lots of time and help from other wizards.
I enjoyed the feel of characters seeking out magics more powerful than they could comfortably control.
All that said, these days I'd probably reduce my work load and run that kind of campaign in D&D 5E. I feel like it accomplishes a fair number of goals from E8, but retains the full 20 levels. But that's probably just me (please don't reply and tell me how wrong I am. I already know you think I'm wrong.)
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I like the concept of E6, sort off, but I agree, for what I would want, Level 6 is a poor choice. E8 or E9 is better.
A large part of the reason for E6 was to help keep a percieved balance between casters and Fighter. But in practice, what it really does, much worse in PF than in 3E, is make a lot of classes that are not the Fighter only het cool/fun features at the DMs descretion. Even moreso than is the norm. PF introduced a lot more Class Features throughout the levels to most classes, and 6-9 tend to be the sweet spot for most, in my opinion.
The Fighter, but martials in general tend to be a lot more powerful at the lower levels, then casters start to jump ahead. Typically right around 5th/6th level.
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I tend to like E6-E9 myself. I was pretty excited about 5E bounded accuracy design. However, after play experience I'd rather go back to PF. Character building is incredibly boring in 5E. Casters are incredibly boring in 5E. A shame because BA design makes an immersive setting so much easier to accomplish IMO. I came around to 5E being the game I want to run, but PF is the game I want to play.
Minor necromancy - has anyone considered mixing E6 with Mythic? It seems like a fun way to achieve certain fantasy power-levels (Percy Jackson springs to mind) and with the limit of only 6 class levels to work off I'd imagine Mythic couldn't bend it too far.
Anyone have experience/thoughts on this?
It boosts certain classes over others. Some classes end up way more powerful than others. Gunslingers need to be outright banned. Abilities that "frontload" benefits are much more powerful.
Eh, Gunslingers get two Deeds, grit, gun training at 5th (sort of like a cool capstone), and Nimble +2. All of these are better than access to 3rd Level spells?
IE: "Divine grace" since it gives all of its benefits at level 2, vs an ability that gives +1 every 3 levels.
It "puts casters in their place" but also guts Paladins and Bloodragers.
It doesn't Gut Paladins. They get Divine Grace, as you said, +5/+2/+5 Saves, +6/+1 BAB, 1st level spells (probably more with a good Charisma), Mercies, Smite, etc. If anything these early levels pretty much define the class entirely. Sure, they don't get access to higher levels spells and more uses of their 1-6 level abilities, but in an E6 campaign, these are pretty significant in terms of power. Remember the idea of E6 is that the VAST majority of people on the world are average stat commoners and Non-Player classes. You might have ONE Paladin within a 100 mile radius or a few dozen in a Major City in a temple or Order.
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I don't like E6.
It boosts certain classes over others. Some classes end up way more powerful than others. Gunslingers need to be outright banned. Abilities that "frontload" benefits are much more powerful.
IE: "Divine grace" since it gives all of its benefits at level 2, vs an ability that gives +1 every 3 levels.
It "puts casters in their place" but also guts Paladins and Bloodragers.
The theory is that 6th level (or so) is where martials and casters are more balanced with each other. So I'm curious, what classes do you think it makes "way more powerful" and why? How does it "gut" paladins and bloodragers?
Minor necromancy - has anyone considered mixing E6 with Mythic? It seems like a fun way to achieve certain fantasy power-levels (Percy Jackson springs to mind) and with the limit of only 6 class levels to work off I'd imagine Mythic couldn't bend it too far.
Anyone have experience/thoughts on this?
I would pick and choose carefully what you add from Mythic. New abilities are cool, things that let players do stuff they couldn't do normally. Avoid anything that gives bonuses.
I ran an E8 campaign for 3 years. The players actually had 2 opportunities to acquire a mythic rank. I hinted at it, but didn't tell them flat out what they needed to do, but unfortunately they weren't able/willing to get it done.
Paladins: (Pick an archetype that tosses spellcasting)
1 use of +1 Divine Bond.
1 first level spell.
The get 1 + bonus spells for having a high Charisma modifier. So at least 2 spells per day and there's some good Pally spells out there. Also, you get a free magical +1 weapon for 6 minutes a day that's equivalent to a 1st level spell (ala Magial Weapon) so it is sort of balanced.
Again E6 is specifically designed in a way so that magical items by any degree are difficult to come buy. This style isn't designed or intended to be just small D&D but everything else is left alone. Nope, magic is rare and dangerous to keep on hand all the time lest other (and possibly more powerful) beings try to take them off you. So having an instant +1 magic item to call up anytime you want is a handy trick to have.
1 1st level spell.-vs-
Fighter:
6 feats! Nice!
They get 4. And most feats at 1st through 6th without significant investment are trash and don't scale. So yea a 1st level spell that you can change out anytime you want IS actually sorta nice vs. a feat you're pretty much locked into 100% of the time.
Gunslinger:
Ranged touch attacks... That alone is mega powerful.
At different ranges. The Musket is the longest at 40-ft. with a misfire of 1-4. Haha, good luck dealing with the Broken condition. Also -2 penalty for anything PAST that and you still need to use Grit to get Attack vs. Touch AC, so it's a fleeting thing. Color me unimpressed.
I don't like E6. It boosts certain classes over others. Some classes end up way more powerful than others.Well, that's not necessarily bad (a competent martial, for instance, should be greatly feared, not a laughingstock).
Gunslingers need to be outright banned.Gunslingers are often banned anyway for wrecking verisimilitude. A gritty fantasy campaign where heroes regard mithril chainshirts as miraculous artifacts that save the day...will be immersive. A swashbuckling high Renaissance campaign where Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. is barechested with a touch-AC of infinity can also be immersive. But they do not mix well.
Abilities that "frontload" benefits are much more powerful. IE: "Divine grace" since it gives all of its benefits at level 2, vs an ability that gives +1 every 3 levels. It "puts casters in their place" but also guts Paladins and Bloodragers.
Divine Grace is powerful but paladins are gutted?
Provided the GM allows Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy in his campaign, paladins should be basically unkillable to hitpoint damage unless in their skivvies completely surrounded by enemies. With a headband, their Cha will be 20 by 5th or so with two smites/day and possessing a bonded item or mount.
Bloodrager: any class that can rage at 1st level will do just fine.
You know those 7 feats (1st, 1st Bonus, 2nd Bonus, 3rd, 4th Bonus, 5th, 6th bonus) on a Fighter can get a Starknife that does ridiculous damage right?
Everyone gets 1st, 3rd, 5th....so yes I'm fully aware of the four extra bonus feats the Fighter gets (like I said).
I made an E6 build that was hitting for 1d8+20 with the capability to hit multiple targets in one attack. Averaging 24 damage to entire groups of enemies... As a standard action.
K.....cool? Sounds fun. I've made 3.5 E6 characters that deal absurd damage with Rage + Pounce.
That is nearly on par with a 10d6 fireball and I could do it all day long. If you think Fighters suck in E6 then you're not used to playing fighters.
I never said Fighters suck. In fact, Fighters are really good and it's ONE of the reasons why I enjoy E6 so much.
I'd say fighter's 'suck' in E6 only insofar as their main thing is bonus feats who's value gets diminished somewhat the further you progress into epic levels. As everyone accrues a glut of feats eventually having 4 more then everyone else is less significant imo.
