I have created a Level Point system. My motivation was that classes are not balanced in terms of power. This is inevitable in a game that has major differences between classes and where some classes have access to magic that can create wondrous effects whereas others do not. I would not want to see those magical/wondrous effects removed, as it would make for a poorer game in my opinion. Such a system can still have a form of balance through differential progressions as in 2E D&D, but that complicates multiclassing. I have tried to create a system that enables both 3E-style multiclassing, yet enables differential rates of progression to account for balance differences between classes. And while at it, I have also taken a stab at using the system to fix Level Adjustments.
The problem is that the system contains a table. Is there any way to post it here, so that people can read it and comment on it, without the formatting going completely out of whack? Thanks!
Hi, Roman. I'm working on a point-buy system for Pathfinder myself, and would be very interested to see what you've come up with. If there's no good way to upload a PDF of your table and post a link to it, maybe you'd be willing to email it instead to those people who are interested?
Hi, Roman. I'm working on a point-buy system for Pathfinder myself, and would be very interested to see what you've come up with. If there's no good way to upload a PDF of your table and post a link to it, maybe you'd be willing to email it instead to those people who are interested?
I would have no problem converting it into a PDF file and uploading it somewhere, so that people can download it and comment on it here. Do you know of any websites with free hosting space and no-hassle uploading?
Do you know of any websites with free hosting space and no-hassle uploading?
Unfortunately, I can barely spell "PDF," and don't even know what it stands for, much less where to upload one. But hopefully we can entice another Paizoan to give us some suggestions...
Hmm, Flickr, Photobucket, MySpace, or Facebook should work. Then just link that site here in your messages. I'm sure there are others methods that would be easier/quicker. These were just off the top of my head...there's too much stuff bouncing about up there usually for me to pay attention to the small details.
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I have created a Level Point system. My motivation was that classes are not balanced in terms of power. This is inevitable in a game that has major differences between classes and where some classes have access to magic that can create wondrous effects whereas others do not. I would not want to see those magical/wondrous effects removed, as it would make for a poorer game in my opinion. Such a system can still have a form of balance through differential progressions as in 2E D&D, but that complicates multiclassing. I have tried to create a system that enables both 3E-style multiclassing, yet enables differential rates of progression to account for balance differences between classes. And while at it, I have also taken a stab at using the system to fix Level Adjustments.
The problem is that the system contains a table. Is there any way to post it here, so that people can read it and comment on it, without the formatting going completely out of whack? Thanks!
Isn't that return to the 2nd Ed?
I will try creating a Facebook account and then uploading it. I got a bit scared though about the legal issues, since it is an actual PDF document that will be uploaded, which is different than posting on the messageboards, so I will try adding the open gaming license, authorship and such stuff in an attempt to make it legally acceptable to do this. Among other things, I will also have to replace the experience point system with my own example, since I believe the experience point system is product identity for both WotC and Paizo respectively. It shouldn't take me too long - probably around 20 minutes or so and hopefully I will have no problems as a result.
You could also upload it to places like Scribd.com or 4shared.com, or even Lulu.com
Also, I don't know how much your own XP chart would actually be needed. You could simply say "the next time your character gains a level," or some such thing.
If it's a system you created (house-rule), there shouldn't be a problem with copyright as you are presenting it as an alternative to the current system. Has there not been a lot of people posting rules and classes and whatnot for Pathfinder on these boards?
I have tried creating a Facebook account, but I cannot figure out how to upload PDF files to it, so I tried the mediafire suggestion and it seems to work.
Here is the file: Level Point System
Yes, on second thoughts, maybe I did panick unnecessarily about the legal issues and didn't need to change things, add the OGL document at the end and so on. Still, it is already done... I hope you enjoy it.
Ugh, reading through it again, I noticed that I forgot to replace "DM" with "GM" (I tend to use "DM" generically out of habit)... so much for all my attempts to be correct about this...
Nevertheless, when you do read it, I would appreciate some comments. :) If, conversely, you have questions about something that's not clear or about some design decisions, feel free to ask.
I would stay away from Facebook since it tracks every site you visit and reports that information back to Facebook the next time you logon. Mediafire is definitely the way to go.
[I would stay away from Facebook since it tracks every site you visit and reports that information back to Facebook the next time you logon.
Wow, that actually sounds scary. Isn't this phishing and perhaps even illegal?
Mediafire is definitely the way to go.
Yes, in the end I did upload it to Mediafire: Link
Roman -- interesting stuff; it takes me back to 1e, which also had staggered xp progression for all the classes (and xp, rather than level, was the better indicator of character power). Thanks for sharing this.
I have created a Level Point system. My motivation was that classes are not balanced in terms of power. This is inevitable in a game that has major differences between classes and where some classes have access to magic that can create wondrous effects whereas others do not. I would not want to see those magical/wondrous effects removed, as it would make for a poorer game in my opinion.
This is an idea that stroke me some time ago, when I first read the Alpha XP tables of progression and for a moment mistook the 'Fast', Medium', and 'Slow' charts as XP charts for CLASSES, not for 'campaign pace'.
And I told myself: 'Why not giving 3 Tiers of XP Progression to 3 Tiers of Spell-Dabblers (since Magic is the unbalancing factor between classes, of course)?With this 'Alpha-Progression' (never tested, actually... my players would kill me, I fear...), a 'No Magic' class (Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, and perhaps Monk) would use the 'Fast' Progression, a 'Some Magic' class (Bard, Paladin, Ranger, and perhaps Monk... still undecided on this one) would use the 'Medium' Progression, and a 'Full Magic' class (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) would use the 'Slow' Progression.
The table would look actually in this way (I post only 3 levels, just for ease):
My Table:----Slow--Medium--Fast
Gain level 5 +9000/ +6000/ +4000
Gain level 6 +12000/ +8000/ +5000
Gain level 7 +18000/ +12000/ +8000
...and so on, which is simply the difference between the XP necessary to be (for example) a 4th-level character and a 5th-level character
(example: Official Slow Progression Table:
4th: 14000; 5th: 23000; 6th: 35000; 7th: 53000)
As you can see, the XP difference between a 4th level character and a 5th level is 9000 xp, etc.
In this way, a character can freely Multiclass and/or take a Prestige Class, and the only thing it has to check (and sum) is the XP he needs to BECOME a character of that Character level. For example, a 4th level character who wants to take a 'Fast' progression class (let's say, Fighter) must gain 4000 xp to gain a level in that class, but if the same 4th level character wants to gain a 'Slow' progression class (let's say, Wizard) must gain 9000 xp to gain a level in that class.
A bit unrealistic in some cases, I admit it (5th level Fighter > 1st level Wizard, for example), but it COULD work.
But I know that this will never be used, either by me (or I would be dismissed by my players before sundown) or anyone... too much bookkeeping (although backwards compatibility would not be harmed at all).
Wraith -- to properly address class inequities, fighters would have to level a lot more slowly than wizards at first, then level more rapidly as they get to be medium level, until they were zinging past the wizards at high levels. In short, we'd need totally different curves, not just different progressions following the same curve.
Wraith -- to properly address class inequities, fighters would have to level a lot more slowly than wizards at first, then level more rapidly as they get to be medium level, until they were zinging past the wizards at high levels. In short, we'd need totally different curves, not just different progressions following the same curve.
You are right on this one, in fact I stated that this was merely an 'Alpha-Idea' that sparked in my mind. It's true, however, that a PF Wizard has more options, more hp, and more At-Will powers than a 3.x one, and this shorten the gap between a 1st level Fighter and a 1st level Wizard. Also, a 1st-level Wizard has still the 'Save-or-Die' Sleep spell, that a 1st-level Fighter cannot easily bypass, so I'm not totally convinced that a 1st level Fighter is so much powerful than a 1st level Wizard, but, oh, well, this is merely my personal opinion and I could easily be wrong.
But please, it's THE Wraith (I'm starting to feel a bit discouraged about this one...) ;)
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1st Edition most certainly did have parties of varied levels!
Not only was the amount of xp required different for each class, but also the rate at which certain classes could acquire xp.
Rogues (sorry, *cough*thieves*cough*) needed least (1250xp) to reach level 2, while 'magic-users' (ie wizards, for you young'uns) needed double that (2500).
However, simply being a thief gave you ample ways to whore the adventure for xp opportunities (sloping off on your own, and practicing your thiefly skills), while the poor wizard, with his one spell/day, was rather short of things to do.
The cleric was also in a good position, needing only 1500xp, and always being on healing duty with his 3 cures/day (what, you surely never played one with less than 14Wis?)
So it was very common to see parties where the thief was at level 3, or even well on his way to level 4, with 3000+ xp, while the wizard was still halfway through level 1, despite them, on paper, being expected to be level 3 and 2, respectively.
Not that this was necessarily a bad thing. This was explained as the price to be paid for the ultimate wizardly power at higher levels, and meant that having a wizard PC who had legally worked his way up was a matter of pride.
Ugh, that brought back memories of how experience points used to be awarded individually instead of to whomever took part in the encounter. I remember the painstaking plod of keeping track of who did how many hit points of damage to try and keep it a little more fair from the "glory seekers" who liked to turn and kill the monster on it's last legs. Then there was experience for gold pieces (thieves ruled there!) and magic items...
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...and the game was still fun!
D20, for all it's wonder, has made it too easy to try and compare different aspects of the game. Nothing has to be balanced to roleplay.
All that said - I love to explore the game and alternate class systems. I own three or four different point systems and think they're great.
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Ugh, that brought back memories of how experience points used to be awarded individually instead of to whomever took part in the encounter.
I can see the pros and cons of either method.
If you've ever been in a group where some people never pull their weight, it can be galling to have them leech off the others.On the other hand, I've seen some awful, ooc meta-gaming moves, where a wizard fires off a Magic Missile, but instead of making sure of dropping one enemy, splits it ineffectually, so as to claim their 'partial kill' on five separate opponents. (Rolls eyes)
Whatever system you use, as soon as the players decode it, they will find ways to work the system, if not outright abuse it. The best way is not to tell them your system, and use the rules as a guide.
The fact remains, though, that even in a campaign with totally equal shares, the rogue/ranger/scout types had the advantage in that they so often were expected to go on solo adventures for the benefit of the group, so earned xp to which the others weren't eligible. There's simply no way round that, that isn't unbelievably artificial.
Thanks Roman, good work as usual! I'm slightly confused as to how it work, however...do you add up the general level points you've got up to that level, then compare it to your class-specific level points requirement to see if you go up a level?
Thanks for the heads-up! Yes, you got the gist of how it works.
If so, it seems to me that the Rogue would only be level 18 when the Fighter was level 20 (36 more level points required for level 20, -5 from level 1 is 31 more points, and level 20 requires 30 level points, so they'd be 1 short. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?).
You are correct. I typed the example section and then tinkered with the numbers some more, while forgetting to change it.
As to what classes should go in which categories, I'd probably swap Barbarian and Bard, but leave the others as they are. This thread from the old WotC site seems to generally agree with your power ratings, as least as far as 3.5 is concerned.
An interesting thread - thanks for linking it. As to the Bard and Barbarian, I was indeed considering moving the Bard down and the Barbarian up, but I wonder about the Pathfinder Bard... he was significantly upgraded was he not? Nobody has played the new Bard in my group and I haven't used Pathfinder Bards as NPCs, so I haven't paid much attention to the Bard changes.
Thanks for all the comments everybody!
I have a question for you. What do you think should be the level spread between high-powered (e.g. Cleric, Wizard...) and low-powered (e.g. Fighter, Paladin...) classes by level 20? I worked off the assumption, that the high-powered spellcasters should still get their highest level of spells by the time the lower-powered martial classes reach level 20, so the high powered classes ought to reach 17th level by that time (I have now shifted the Sorcerer to the medium cost group for that reason).
Another possibility would be to shift the start of the progressions by 2 levels, to ensure that, 20th level for the low cost group is equivalent to 19th level for the medium cost group and 18th level for the high cost group. This would be rather neat/elegant and the Sorcerer could be shifted back to the high cost group. Do you think it would correspond well to the respective power levels of the classes?
The Level Point System is now at version 1.10: Level Point System
The list of changes includes:
Making the Level Point System copyright compliant (i.e. removal of any "DM" references and their replacement with "GM")
Minor corrections of calculations, grammar and spelling
Clearer phrasing (hopefully) of some sections
Experimental shift in the point formula as outlined in my post above
Addition of a section on racial and minor hit dice
Other minor changes
I've just read version 1.10.
Good: The explanatory text is definitely clearer now.
Excellent
Bad(?): The additional class costs don't seem to correspond to the total class costs in the table, or to the example in the prestige classes section.
Thanks for pointing this out - it seems that in my eagerness I only changed the second column of the table...
I'm not sure about the level spread, but 18/19/20 seems about right to me.
OK - sounds good!