Eyraphel Teralyn's page

when I was first down in the southeast fighting the Ustalavs with the AGC we got no polite request to leave.

Though I don't believe I was present for the initial meeting on that occasion, I wouldn't be surprised if AGC didn't get a warning for farming a valuable escalation in a hex we claimed. We're not Lawful, and we don't feel bound to following a specific procedure when there is sufficient reason to believe it's not necessary.

When dealing with a new player or someone who simply may not know better, then sure. We'll make sure they know we've claimed the area and even offer them help with the game if they're unaffiliated. An introduction and warning is helpful in these circumstances.

A warning given to a previously-hostile company farming in our territory despite (and likely in spite of) it being claimed would fall on deaf ears. Organized activity in our territory led by prominent members of a hostile company is an affront to the alliance's sovereignty, not an accidental overstepping of boundaries.

Perhaps you were all unaware, and if so I apologize for whatever part I may have played in the response, but I find that highly unlikely. We recognize the limitations of being strictly Lawful, and we're not going to chase after hostile parties shouting their rights at them before engaging. When it comes to AGC and a resource as valuable as a T2 escalation, there's plenty of reason to believe you all knew the consequences already.

If you were relying on that warning to tell you when to run, then I remind you we're Neutral Good, not LG.

And again, if none of you genuinely had any idea we'd claimed the territory, then I apologize. In a thread as large as this one, one would think AGC's leadership would be well aware.

Lam has backed you guys up in the past so you could attempt to enlighten him on how you are not evil.

I haven't read through this thread, and I don't really intend to. I've seen enough vitriol in previous threads that I don't want to burn myself out on this one, too. However, I will address the quoted topic.

One major shortcoming of the D&D/Pathfinder system has always been alignment. It's fundamentally flawed, but it works well enough that tabletop groups of players can usually come to agreements about how it works. One challenge we face by converting this game to an MMO is dealing with the dreaded alignment debate on a much larger scale.

My personal feelings follow.

Name any single action and you could describe any number of circumstances for which that action would apply to almost any alignment.

Stealing? Most likely chaotic, but who are you stealing from? And why? Robin Hood is likely CG, but the common thief is likely CN, working for his or her own gain.

What about murder? "Chaotic Evil!" most people shout. My paladin "murdered" plenty of demons at the table. Plenty of humanoids that refused to surrender, too.

In short, to me, the Law vs Chaos axis deals with either the law of the land or your own code and how strictly you adhere to it. The Good vs Evil axis speaks more for your intentions and how selfish/altruistic you are.

Based on my above views on alignment, I'd respond as such: The EBA (being predominantly Neutral Good) finds itself in a defensible corner of the map where we can remain mostly out of the way. Those who travel to the declared territory are (largely) there because they mean to visit us. As for Law vs Chaos, the EBA wanted to lay down a border to inform its neighbors, but visitors are absolutely welcome. We care less about following the rule as written to the letter and more about welcoming those who may not know better and politely asking those who do know better to refrain.

As stated, we are predominantly NG and want to see this area of the River Kingdoms grow to be inviting to new players. We want the non-consensual PVP of the past to be a fringe element, in favor of organized PVP for strategic locations or objectives. We seek to protect those who cannot protect themselves and provide a welcoming environment for new players and new members alike. I rule this as a Good intention.

Declaring a border (and declaring it where it now lies) isn't done out of greed, it's a necessity. Every hex included is factored into our projections for required resources over time. Bulk resources, escalations in monster hexes, resources in nodes, and even strategic locations within the borders are essential to fulfilling our Good mission.

We have a glorious vision for the Everbloom Alliance. We work only to ensure that our goals can be successful. Threatening the sovereignty of that border threatens our ability to provide that bastion of safety. I believe this is still Neutral Good.

Thanks for the response, Tigari. There is definitely a distinction to be made between a flawed but intentional decision and a bug that was never working as intended.

I think this is dangerous for us to consider, though, because how will we know what is intended by the developers and what isn't? We report things that we believe are unintentional as bugs, but how long do we wait before a "bug" is considered intentional after being silently ignored by the developers we reported it to? We knew mobs weren't using proper attacks, but it wasn't until someone finally encountered Ustalavians that we found an example of that bug that was really imbalanced.

By prioritizing other fixes first, does the developer assume responsibility for this specific case of the same bug? Do we blame the developers who had both pieces of the puzzle but didn't put them together? Or do we expect the players to predict the developers' response to issues they aren't even aware of?

In Alpha, we could explore every bug and exploit freely to understand just how bugged that thing was. Now, players are left second-guessing the developers and, worse, their intentions.

I fully agree that the Ustalavian casters are less effective than they should be, but when players have to ponder the ethical and political consequences of killing any mob they come across, it cripples us. There's no way for us to know every intention of every developer. We have to act on what we have, not what we think the developers want, or else we won't be able to play the game at all without someone crying foul because their prediction of Goblinworks's intentions differs from ours.

To play Asmodeus's Advocate and perhaps save Nihimon some typing (sorry if I'm not predicting your response well enough):

What, specifically, about Ustalav Casters/Ustalav Prelates invokes the Terms of Service clause you've quoted?

I helped pioneer my group's methods for attacking groups in PvE. As such, I dealt with learning the individual Ustalavian invaders first-hand. I had no experience with them until EE.

They hit hard. It is, at times, difficult to tell what hit you when you're not familiar with the different types. They can slow (on opportunity? on critical?), and sometimes it seems they can stun (on some secondary condition?). It wasn't until I happened upon Enervation's entry in the spreadsheets that I realized that may be what the casters are using.

I recognize that farming those mobs while they behave as they do is considered exploitative by some. I recognize the validity and legitimacy of these individuals' opinions.

That said, I personally disagree with that opinion, which makes it difficult for me to see both sides. I did not report the issue with the same urgency the "exploit" individuals may have, because it never crossed my mind that this was exploitative in any way (especially after how the starter goblin issue was handled).

Now that more people are identifying this issue, some of the first players to consider it exploitative are raising the flag, and they're understandably upset that others have been "abusing" it, because, with the official decisions still pending at that time, these people consider it an exploit. I think we can all agree we'd be upset at other players abusing an exploit.

What has people all heated up here is what's actually an "exploit" and what's just imbalanced for now. Perhaps something productive can be accomplished before this thread ultimately dies: Can we assume that by filing bug reports Goblinworks will call out official exploits as they see fit? Or must we raise every issue like this with some arbitrary, defined degree of urgency?

Side note: Something entirely separate that TEO pointed out to Goblinworks has been ruled as an exploit, and now the members of TEO know to avoid it entirely. However, I either missed a thread announcing it to other players or no such thread exists. I'm hesitant to mention it (if Goblinworks has, for some reason, decided against it), but I wish to reassure all those who cry "foul" that we do, indeed, check everything we deem exploitative, imbalanced, or even advantageous with Goblinworks.

That being said, with no such announcement, how do I know members of other groups aren't "quietly benefiting" from the same exploit?

Just checking. After all, I recall something about touching and a doll..

Shouldn't that be something you'd look favorably upon?

Dont cheat.
If you find some condition, combination of actions, location, or feature that is broken or provides you an advantage you should not have due to a bug, don't do that thing. Report it.

"Being attacked" by a monster is not a combination of actions. Nothing about Ustalav Casters or Prelates gives any player an advantage over any other player.

Many of us have told Goblinworks of the issues with mobs using the same attack repeatedly (bandit archers as well as Ustalav casters), but this is an issue with (presumably) every mob in the game. The only difference is which attacks an individual mob has access to, and which it chooses to spam. This has been discussed on the Paizo forums as well as the GW forums. Need I make a separate thread to tell everyone "Hey, you remember that bug affecting all mobs? It affects this mob, just so everyone knows."

Essentially, this has been reported as a potential exploit because:

1. Mobs that fill support roles in their groups and don't just pew pew pew all day are inconceivable.

2. Players that get hit by Enervation repeatedly instead of being bandit archer-interrupted repeatedly are giving themselves an advantage.

3. Every submitted bug report must be accompanied by a Paizo thread to alert the players.

This is silly. I feel like I'm making up the Kobold's rules for him.

Naming them here would not have been appropriate.

It's a shame Kabal's concerns weren't brought up in a more appropriate setting, then.

In my (likely unpopular) opinion, a settlement with 0 towers should be less functional than a starter settlement. The War of Towers began, what, two weeks ago? We're only now reaching the point that people need better training to advance, and most of that advancement is only symbolic for yet *another* week while we wait for crafters to reach proper Tier 2 equipment.

In short, the towers have been active, but they have yet to mean anything. It's my hope that having a few towers becomes (more or less) essential soon.

Aragorn is a more chaotic settlement and you "Laws" Means nothing to us devoted to chage and will rebel agains the stagnation caused by Treaties like Nap.

Nipping the "Aragon is chaotic" discussion in the bud:

While many inhabitants of the surrounding kingdoms think of the people of the River Kingdoms as back stabbing curs they are wrong as one of the codes of the River Freedoms is that oathbreakers must die (usually in a very painful manner), as a result most people from the River Kingdoms would die before they broke their word but are also very cautious about giving their word in the first place.

For those of us with interest in lore. Chaotic is not equal to compulsive liar or rule-breaker.

Just a minor comment in response to some comments further up the thread about orisons being weak.

A character who:
- can cast in heavy armor
- cast spells (not orisons) while using fighter weapons and a shield
- heal himself and others
- buff himself and others
- who ALSO had damage spells equivalent to a wizard

would be a touch unbalanced

The actual game mechanics aside, I was always under the impression that PFO would handle this sort of thing in a slightly different way. Sure, if I could take one level of cleric in a tabletop game and have all those things, then why would anyone ever be anything else? But PFO does things the other way around. You can pick up heavy armor proficiency, holy symbol proficiency, whatever you need for a shield, focus, grab minor cure, buffs, whatever orisons you want, and go grind for spell drops with your [insert fighter weapon here]. The damaging spells could even be on par with the damaging spells of a wizard for all I care.

In PFO, the difference is that by spending experience on all those things, you may be just as effective as a Wizard 1 and a Fighter 1 in addition to your abilities as Cleric 1, but you've spent the same amount of experience as the guy who's now Wizard 4.*

*Note: I'm not actually doing the math/builds for this example, it's just the way I've always imagined the game would be balanced in my head.

Eyraphel Teralyn wrote:

P.S. As a non-combat character who took the touch-range Minor Cure to help support a party of dual Whirlwind-ers: Ouch. Please stop hitting me.

LOL.

Wait until your mages use wraith's cry.

I expect I'll enjoy it as much as I enjoyed my serving of Burning Hands.

No issues with the alleged "grinding." Nothing in the game is forcing me to grind right now. I've hit no gates and won't for the foreseeable future. If I choose to grind enough so that I can bypass gates months in advance, that's my choice.

As a PFO player who DOES NOT play a full cleric (and so I'm blissfully ignorant to their finer aspects), I expect that many of the buff complaints here are coming from people who are frustrated with *Orisons* because they're not *Spells*.

As a tabletop player, I do have to admit that I don't like seeing clerics somewhat pigeonholed into healing full-time. I understand that some of those issues can be solved by spells' power later, but I've always been fond of versatility in my characters, and a battle cleric (mace/shield plus buffs/healing) should be doable without someone dying from lack of focus spam.

P.S. As a non-combat character who took the touch-range Minor Cure to help support a party of dual Whirlwind-ers: Ouch. Please stop hitting me.