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Decius,

Even if we accept everyone's statements at face value, we have a situation that was totally apparent to my mates and also to some people yesterday that wasn't totally apparent to those who were there before.

Broken, imbalanced, way too rewarding for the risk,

or

normal buggy ai, really deadly, we reported the bug but it didn't feel like an exploit

however people choose to classify it.

The fact that this game purposely divides the playerbase into separate camps that aren't always free to look over the other guy's shoulder without great risk also tends to cause suspicion as we wonder about what the other guys are up to.

That might be good for in-game conflict but it definitely has an effect on the forum culture, too.

I'd like to get back to whining about WoT irrelevancy where we can all be on the same side of that argument.

But I have a difficult time reconciling the differing experiences (and differing senses of urgency on making the devs understand it) of people encountering the Ustalavs.

That's *my* problem, and is a very large part of why I encouraged more people who have never been there to go. While I have an opinion, I want lots of others to visit so they can either validate that opinion, or show me I can trust my neighbors. It's practically win-win because I'd really like to have more faith in my neighbors.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:

Broken, imbalanced, way too rewarding for the risk,

or

normal buggy ai, really deadly, we reported the bug but it didn't feel like an exploit

Just so we're all clear, you think the "exploit" is that TEO kept farming the Ustalavs even after realizing the Prelates and Casters weren't doing very much damage? I just want you to go on record explaining precisely what it is you're all in a tizzy over.


I'm on record encouraging other people to accept the devs invitation to go out there, and asking those new arrivals (who are hopefully objective) if (and how soon) they'd report the Ustalavs and with how much urgency.

I'm completely aware that I'm hearing two different things from two different groups.

I'm completely aware that I may be biased towards accepting my mates' experience.

I'm also completely aware that the game separates us to make us suspicious of each other.

I imagine that by the time people are writing about this after the weekend is over we'll have an array of experiences and insights.

Will they, too, be wildly divergent? Who knows?

Even THAT will be useful to see.


and what would be hilarious is if a new Ustalav bug got introduced in the latest patch and no one could have noticed it before my mates did.

Even THAT is a possibility.

Goblin Squad Member

No simple, direct statement of what you think was done wrong? 'Cause I'm dying to know...

Goblin Squad Member

In before...


Nihimon wrote:
No simple, direct statement of what you think was done wrong? 'Cause I'm dying to know...

I'm very disappointed that earlier players didn't report the Ustalavs with the same sense of urgency my mates did *if* ours was the correct level of urgency and *if* they have always been like that.

That is simple and direct.

Now to wordiness...

The fact that devs are throwing the prefix -ish, though, speaks in favor of earlier players.

The fact that the devs used the word "imbalance" and are going to fix them speaks in favor of my mates' sense of urgency.

It is also informative to read all the posts from people feeling defensive. So many of us just do what we're told when it comes to things like target selection and focused fire that I can easily see how some/many simply obedient (non-trail-blazer) people could be oblivious to the particulars of monster behavior.

But I'm probably more interested in what people who are Ustalavs new and objective think, and we should have lots of that after the weekend.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:

I'm very disappointed that earlier players didn't report the Ustalavs with the same sense of urgency my mates did *if* ours was the correct level of urgency and *if* they have always been like that.

That is simple and direct.

It's simple, but it's not direct. What, exactly, about the Ustalavs do you think needed to be reported? Is it that the Prelates/Casters weren't doing any real damage?

Goblin Squad Member

They're not just not doing any real damage, they're doing one attack with damage, then no damage at all. It's definitely excessively exploitable for farming and was worth reporting even if you continue to take advantage of it until it's fixed. I definitely would've reported it, and now that we've got the OK from GW, I'm exploiting the carp out of it.


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I helped pioneer my group's methods for attacking groups in PvE. As such, I dealt with learning the individual Ustalavian invaders first-hand. I had no experience with them until EE.

They hit hard. It is, at times, difficult to tell what hit you when you're not familiar with the different types. They can slow (on opportunity? on critical?), and sometimes it seems they can stun (on some secondary condition?). It wasn't until I happened upon Enervation's entry in the spreadsheets that I realized that may be what the casters are using.

I recognize that farming those mobs while they behave as they do is considered exploitative by some. I recognize the validity and legitimacy of these individuals' opinions.

That said, I personally disagree with that opinion, which makes it difficult for me to see both sides. I did not report the issue with the same urgency the "exploit" individuals may have, because it never crossed my mind that this was exploitative in any way (especially after how the starter goblin issue was handled).

Now that more people are identifying this issue, some of the first players to consider it exploitative are raising the flag, and they're understandably upset that others have been "abusing" it, because, with the official decisions still pending at that time, these people consider it an exploit. I think we can all agree we'd be upset at other players abusing an exploit.

What has people all heated up here is what's actually an "exploit" and what's just imbalanced for now. Perhaps something productive can be accomplished before this thread ultimately dies: Can we assume that by filing bug reports Goblinworks will call out official exploits as they see fit? Or must we raise every issue like this with some arbitrary, defined degree of urgency?

Side note: Something entirely separate that TEO pointed out to Goblinworks has been ruled as an exploit, and now the members of TEO know to avoid it entirely. However, I either missed a thread announcing it to other players or no such thread exists. I'm hesitant to mention it (if Goblinworks has, for some reason, decided against it), but I wish to reassure all those who cry "foul" that we do, indeed, check everything we deem exploitative, imbalanced, or even advantageous with Goblinworks.

That being said, with no such announcement, how do I know members of other groups aren't "quietly benefiting" from the same exploit?


Nihimon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

I'm very disappointed that earlier players didn't report the Ustalavs with the same sense of urgency my mates did *if* ours was the correct level of urgency and *if* they have always been like that.

That is simple and direct.

It's simple, but it's not direct. What, exactly, about the Ustalavs do you think needed to be reported? Is it that the Prelates/Casters weren't doing any real damage?

I haven't fought a single Ustalav because as soon as the ease/brokenness/bugginess was mentioned on comms I felt bound by the TOS to "don't do that thing".

Later the devs declared open season and me being the way I am, I chose to take the devs up on the PvP part of the invitation rather than the escalation mobs.

But I think that any aspect of the game that fits these words (from the TOS)

If you find some condition, combination of actions, location, or feature that is broken or provides you an advantage you should not have due to a bug

should be reported, and I also feel that reports should reflect the level of brokenness and the potential for abuse (when determinable) with frankness and candor.


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To play Asmodeus's Advocate and perhaps save Nihimon some typing (sorry if I'm not predicting your response well enough):

What, specifically, about Ustalav Casters/Ustalav Prelates invokes the Terms of Service clause you've quoted?

Goblin Squad Member

Ironically, the Keepers had planned an escalation war against these guys prior to this thread or the posting on GW. We're not PvE/PvP monsters, so I'm pretty certain none of our folks were aware of any issues with the escalation while we were planning. It was also my first time to ever fight any of these mobs. Our motivation was basically to go somewhere that had red/purple mobs to hunt. We had 10 or so folk show up last night, and we went around in two parties taking out escalations. We targeted whatever was near, not anything based on certain mobs being present. We had several deaths, and mob drops overall weren't what we considered that great, even though we were taking out ever red and purple we could find. I didn't notice anything odd about individual mob behavior, but I'm also not that versed on combat in general so I wouldn't expect to catch anything as subtle as this. I did notice that the Bishops are hard to take down, and when they get close to dead they unleash some sort of "hail mary" that was the only time I nearly died (I generally run a lot).

So, from a totally new perspective, I can confirm that after our fights last night, I would not have thought there was anything to report regarding the game functionality. The militants and such were hurting me so much, I didn't notice that other mobs weren't. I say again, though, that much of that is likely from my relative lack of time spent fighting things. However, I think it's very valid to consider that most folks like me (that haven't been fighting every type of mob, taking down escalations regularly, etc.) would come to the same general conclusion.

On a separate note, I would certainly like it if there was a greater geographic distribution of higher challenge mobs.


Eyraphel Teralyn wrote:

To play Asmodeus's Advocate and perhaps save Nihimon some typing (sorry if I'm not predicting your response well enough):

What, specifically, about Ustalav Casters/Ustalav Prelates invokes the Terms of Service clause you've quoted?

I don't know. I haven't hunted them. All I can tell you is the first of us to encounter Ustalavs was laughing at the brokenness of them and a number of my mates who were probably incredulous at first confirmed how broken they seemed and it was bug reported and hopefully (dare I say obviously?) those reports reflected the level of brokenness and the sense of urgency that each reporter felt was appropriate.

Goblin Squad Member

Bishops and militants are not Ustalavian mobs. Are you sure you were fighting Ustalavians?


@Erian, I thought the Keepers marched on the Razmirans last night, not the Ustalavians? That doesn't quite sound like Ustalavian behavior.

Goblin Squad Member

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Giorgo wrote:

@DeciusBrutus,

The drama is unnecessary and distracting, caused by bad blood/history between some groups, rabble rousers and agent provocateurs, people who have popcorn and like to be entertained, misunderstandings and assumptions, and delibert lies and slanders. In other words, just another Forum PVP day. :)

No true popcorn aficionado contributes to ongoing drama. That is called popcorn pissing, and it ruins the natural flavour of the popcorn.

Unless you're into that. Gross.


Eyraphel Teralyn wrote:

.

What has people all heated up here is what's actually an "exploit" and what's just imbalanced for now. Perhaps something productive can be accomplished before this thread ultimately dies: Can we assume that by filing bug reports Goblinworks will call out official exploits as they see fit? Or must we raise every issue like this with some arbitrary, defined degree of urgency?

Side note: Something entirely separate that TEO pointed out to Goblinworks has been ruled as an exploit, and now the members of TEO know to avoid it entirely. However, I either missed a thread announcing it to other players or no...

GW is probably winging everything.

At the risk of sounding like Ryan... It's part of the joy and sheer terror of allowing players to be part of all this so early on in the process. GW knows what they signed up for. So do we.

I'd even say discussions like this one are part of that joy and sheer terror, as everyone tries to figure out what is or isn't going on.

And I'm very happy to read of the TEO exploit experience you've mentioned. That's the kind of thing I'd have liked to have heard the devs publicly credit you for reporting as well as warn me from that super-secret activity.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, you are correct...never mind me. Nothing to see here...move along...

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
Eyraphel Teralyn wrote:

To play Asmodeus's Advocate and perhaps save Nihimon some typing (sorry if I'm not predicting your response well enough):

What, specifically, about Ustalav Casters/Ustalav Prelates invokes the Terms of Service clause you've quoted?

I don't know.

That was... unexpected.

So, you know something is wrong with the Prelates & Casters in the Ustalav Invaders Escalation. You know your group reported something to the devs. You don't know what any other groups have reported to the devs. But you're convinced enough that your group did it "right" and the other groups did it "wrong" that you think it should all be obvious to any new group that goes out and fights the Ustalavs. All of this so you could try to tarnish TEO's reputation.

Is that about right?


Nihimon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
Eyraphel Teralyn wrote:

To play Asmodeus's Advocate and perhaps save Nihimon some typing (sorry if I'm not predicting your response well enough):

What, specifically, about Ustalav Casters/Ustalav Prelates invokes the Terms of Service clause you've quoted?

I don't know.

That was... unexpected.

So, you know something is wrong with the Prelates & Casters in the Ustalav Invaders Escalation. You know your group reported something to the devs. You don't know what any other groups have reported to the devs. But you're convinced enough that your group did it "right" and the other groups did it "wrong" that you think it should all be obvious to any new group that goes out and fights the Ustalavs. All of this so you could try to tarnish TEO's reputation.

Is that about right?

That seems to me a rather hostile, quirky, and odd summary of an evolving thread.

I'm not sure I can help you understand something if you're not really trying.

Goblin Squad Member

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I am curious to read what exactly is the proper level of urgency in reporting such things.

Is it an email with game footage, in red, charts, Cthuthulian math and GIANT FONT?

What makes a report that the Ustalav casters are "not challenging" unless you don't kill them first (of all others) in a group, urgent enough?

Show me the proper urgency. You know, the kind that got attention and results after complaints that some groups were killing players at banks or crafting stations.

I wonder how many groups did that, even though it was pretty clear that it was not intended (by GW) that it should be so easy to do.


Bringslite wrote:

I am curious to read what exactly is the proper level of urgency in reporting such things.

Is it an email with game footage, in red, charts, Cthuthulian math and GIANT FONT?

What makes a report that the Ustalav casters are "not challenging" unless you don't kill them first (of all others) in a group, urgent enough?

Show me the proper urgency. You know, the kind that got attention and results after complaints that some groups were killing players at banks or crafting stations.

I wonder how many groups did that, even though it was pretty clear that it was not intended (by GW) that it should be so easy to do.

I think a dev would be the best person to answer that. They'd know what is helpful to them. The letter of the TOS doesn't require it, so maybe they'd even think I'm crazy for thinking the game benefits when we provide it.

And regarding the bank issue, on the big Hammer(whatever) raid my mates asked the GMs to tag along to watch. That helped shape today's environment. If you like Thornguards that fire as soon as you get an attacker flag rather than based on rep alone, you should really thank Golgotha for being up front and above board with the devs. We really do want them to know what the game is like. I really do want a game that's fair and enjoyable (within the framework the devs described and that we've bought into, though probably not to Hello Kitty Online fans).


Savage Grace wrote:
maybe they'd even think I'm crazy for thinking the game benefits when we provide it.

While I disagree with your judgment of this particular incident, the intention to do more than is required of you to make this game better for everyone is commendable.

Just perhaps consider giving the victims of your ire the same credit occasionally.


I don't have ire.

At most I would have disappointment. But there are even IFs attached to that and I haven't come to a final conclusion of whether those IFs apply here, and may not ever have enough info to decide.

There's a lot more to learn, but YOUR posts already make me feel better about one of my neighbors, so thanks for that.

Goblin Squad Member

If you were so worried about the actions of another group, why not privately talk to them? If anyone has any concerns about TEO's actions, please feel free to contact me here, at our mumble, or on our message boards.

Consider how this thread went, take a look at the tone of the posts, and think of how other groups would interpret them. While you say that you weren't trying to attack other groups (and I believe you), the way you went about this felt like an attack on the integrity of TEO and it's members. Let's all consider this a teachable moment, move on, and be more willing to talk to groups about concerns, rather than broadcasting them to the public first.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
Savage Grace wrote:
I haven't fought a single Ustalav because as soon as the ease/brokenness/bugginess was mentioned on comms I felt bound by the TOS to "don't do that thing".

I see. I'll stop trying to discuss with you something you have no first-hand knowledge of, then.

Goblin Squad Member

I think everyone should let this thread go quiet for a day.


It's a Friday so I was already thinking we'll see it slow down immensely if the PFO servers don't crash.

Because it is a long President's Day weekend all I'd expect to see much of is Ustalav-new people posting, and that might not even happen until they are stuck back at work Tuesday.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
What makes a report that the Ustalav casters are "not challenging" unless you don't kill them first (of all others) in a group, urgent enough?
I think a dev would be the best person to answer that.

But you are the one saying that y'all did it "right" and TEO did it "wrong". And you're saying that with no real knowledge of what got reported to the devs or by whom.

Forgive me if I seem "hostile", but you're an enemy and you're attacking my ally.

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Cheatle wrote:
My point guys, is that you have been farming Usties, it wasn't meant to be taken in a negative light, but rather to show that there are organizations that have been farming them, hence why I named several other groups doing just that.

I think your definition of farming differs from mine. I see it as planning to go to an escalation with a bunch of groups and systematically killing them (I believe this is what TEO does when they "farm" a hex, I might be wrong?)

For a start, you're assuming some kind of organisation on our behalf. I hate to tell you, we're not that organised.

What usually happens is, someone says, "anyone want to group up?", someone else replies "I've got an hour before dinner." Another person will chime in "I'm in Tavernhold, but I've got to pick the kids up in 2 hours." So we from a loose group. Depending on where everyone is we will go to the escalation/monster hex that is easiest for everyone to meet up at. For me, on 2 occasions before the "exploit" was revealed, it was the Ustalav hex. While we are, what I like to call "playing", other people might log on and join us, but others will drop out. I have never been in the Ustalav hex with a group of 6.

Really, we're not that organised.

Goblin Squad Member

I want my... I want my... I want my M T V

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
TEO Cheatle wrote:
My point guys, is that you have been farming Usties, it wasn't meant to be taken in a negative light, but rather to show that there are organizations that have been farming them, hence why I named several other groups doing just that.

I think your definition of farming differs from mine. I see it as planning to go to an escalation with a bunch of groups and systematically killing them (I believe this is what TEO does when they "farm" a hex, I might be wrong?)

For a start, you're assuming some kind of organisation on our behalf. I hate to tell you, we're not that organised.

What usually happens is, someone says, "anyone want to group up?", someone else replies "I've got an hour before dinner." Another person will chime in "I'm in Tavernhold, but I've got to pick the kids up in 2 hours." So we from a loose group. Depending on where everyone is we will go to the escalation/monster hex that is easiest for everyone to meet up at. For me, on 2 occasions before the "exploit" was revealed, it was the Ustalav hex. While we are, what I like to call "playing", other people might log on and join us, but others will drop out. I have never been in the Ustalav hex with a group of 6.

Really, we're not that organised.

I wasn't assuming anything, it was what I was told by your leadership, apparently there was a miscommunication.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
I wasn't assuming anything, it was what I was told by your leadership, apparently there was a miscommunication.

If you've spoken to Ssunfire in the last month, you're doing better than many of us.

Goblin Squad Member

This entire thread made me laugh. The part where TEO was all like omg stop prosecuting us was particularly good. It amuses me so much when people say you are only going after this exploit because TEO did it. When those very same people would be the loudest crying for blood if we had known that a hard escalation was broken and didn't tell anyone for two months. The argument of we told them about it rings particularly hollow. How is it that you guys reported the bug multiple times and nothing was said about it publicly but then Golgotha reported it and there was pretty much an immediate response? A few things could have happened. Bob could have missed all those reports, unlikely but possible. You actually didn't report it, or GW saw the reports and just kind of swept them under the rug in the hopes that only one group would use this bug to their advantage. All three of those possibilities are troubling in their own way.

I also like how one group that got lucky enough to some how get both the T2 monster home hexes right next to them. Where those generated at random and do we know if the Mordent Spire has a home hex?

Goblin Squad Member

@Gol Phyllain,

Been complaining about the Usties since Alpha, as have a lot of other people that played in Alpha. I think what got GWs attention is when people started throwing around the exploiting word.

Mordent Spire moved near Deadman's Glen.


Gol Phyllain wrote:
Bob could have missed all those reports, unlikely but possible. You actually didn't report it, or GW saw the reports and just kind of swept them under the rug in the hopes that only one group would use this bug to their advantage. All three of those possibilities are troubling in their own way.

If you take a complaint from one customer, who is calm and polite, it's easier to make it a lower priority. We treated this bug with a "no big deal" attitude, because this is the same bug that every other mob has, and it hardly makes the escalation itself "broken." We did, though, make it clear that it's the best thing for players to do at the moment.

If another customer storms in frantically half an hour later to complain that the same issue will bring the End Times, you're more likely to deal with it urgently to address their much higher level of concern. Golgotha's members were the first to (supposedly) treat this bug as a full-blown exploit. Around Goblinworks, that's surely a red flag. Somebody get the red phone and call the guys who balance stuff. Is this gamebreaking?

TEO reported it calmly, and (to my knowledge) we didn't get a response. Golgotha reported it with arms flailing wildly over their heads, and Goblinworks sprung into action by telling you to calm down. It's not an exploit, but it is something they intend to fix.

There is something to be said here for more transparency and uniformity among Goblinworks' responses, but this is hardly the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Goblin Squad Member

Remember when there was a mob that basically doesn't fight back, that drops valuable T2 recipes? Remember when that wasn't considered an exploit?

Good times.


Gol Tink wrote:
Remember when there was a mob that basically doesn't fight back, that drops valuable T2 recipes? Remember when that wasn't considered an exploit?

Pathfinder Online remembers.

Though this does highlight the underlying problem in this thread. What actually is an exploit? How does this bug fit some players' interpretations of an exploit but not others'?

It does "fight back," just not with damage. Rather than fixing the individual mob, all they might have to do is make it so they can't spawn support casters without melee-types to support.

Goblin Squad Member

In ANY other MMO, this would be considered an exploit. Anyone who has beta/alpha tested enough games would know this. Now, this is not any other MMO, its GW's MMO, so its up to them to decide.


But why should it be an exploit, according to Goblinworks's definition?

Goblin Squad Member

IMO any bug a player takes advantage of, just like the rest of the industry.


Take advantage how?

Goblin Squad Member

Just like tink said.

Gol Tink wrote:
Remember when there was a mob that basically doesn't fight back, that drops valuable T2 recipes?

To me this is taking advantage of a bug in the coding. were a T2 mob would not be able to fight back.

Goblin Squad Member

We can sit here and debate this all day, but its all up to GW to decide.

Goblin Squad Member

The keywords there are NOT BE ABLE TO FIGHT BACK.

Casters and Prelates can fight back, our definitions of fight back must be different. That is the root of the issue here.

Goblin Squad Member

So how is the response to the Ustilav Escalation any different than the GW response to the Town Goblin farming?

In both cases it was, "Hey gang, your right. This is dropping loot a little easier than we want. We will fix, so take advantage of it while you can!"

In both cases, the resulting extra loot isn't breaking the economy. And more likely helping the over all game by seeding more goods early on.

In a month or so after the AI is tweaked, the extra loot will be trivial generated will be trivial.

Goblin Squad Member

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This thread is fun.


Gol Tigari wrote:
We can sit here and debate this all day, but its all up to GW to decide.

Absolutely, and I apologize for my incessant questioning, but I'm trying to get down to the misunderstandings at the root of this issue. Thank you for obliging me with answers.

I think "taking advantage" is a very broad term. Essentially, this bug has gotten a lot of attention because some players classify farming mobs that are easier than they should be as taking advantage of that bug. I won't disagree with that interpretation. Others interpret it to mean that exploits are things players must actively do to give themselves an advantage over other players that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Humor me for one further example:

Starter goblins used to drop more than they should have. It was not considered exploiting to farm them, as many players did. Every player could kill a goblin, get the same chance at loot. It didn't matter how you did it or what technique you used. Now, they drop next to nothing.

What if you could drag all those Desperate Goblins over the hex border and they'd turn back to their loot-giving selves? This would be an action or combination of actions that gives that player an advantage over every other player killing goblins. This is, to me, clearly an exploit.

To me, there is no exploitative action a player must perform to benefit from the Ustalav casters. They don't have to walk backwards, or use a particular utility that inexplicably makes you immune. No, every player, regardless of technique or build receives the same benefit from killing a caster.

That benefit may not be intended to be as rewarding as it is, but it's very different, in my mind, from actively provoking some state that makes them easier for you than the next player.

Perhaps better clarification is required from someone whose opinion actually matters, but that likely requires a thread on GW.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

The keywords there are NOT BE ABLE TO FIGHT BACK.

Casters and Prelates can fight back, our definitions of fight back must be different. That is the root of the issue here.

You're right. We do have different definitions. Something that just debuffs forever is not fighting back, it's either bugged OR very badly coded. I'll give GW the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't want Casters and Prelates to just sit there and do a debuff.

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