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Condemning party members to death was the preferred survival tactic for most of my Rappan Athuk players. Nothing worse than a TPK and losing all the valuable intelligence gained about the megadungeon.

I like the idea of a more specialized version of this boon for prestige classes. A "Child of Winter" boon that specifically removes the casting progression loss for a Winter Witch, for example.

It's useful as an "any-tool" due to the relative cheapness of potions. My 10th level PFS alchemist has a potion of Burrow, Waterbreathing, Gaseous Form, Tongues, Magic Circle Against Evil, and of course Heroism, for example. That's some nice "at will" versatility.

I buy a lot of Preserving Flasks and Boro Beads. You can literally never have too many Alchemical Allocations.

If she never makes a damaging attack unless the oracle is threatened, fine-- assuming she is doing something to aid the party. Arguably "tanking" with full defense can be helpful (say, a whip user as mentioned previously in the thread that trips with AoOs), but it sounds like she is setting a false expectation for her character that is detrimental to the safety of the rest of her team.

Furthermore, the characters are first and foremost Pathfinders. I played a pacifist wizard to retirement; he broke his vow at level 11, because a Magic Missile was the only way to save a fellow Pathfinder from being reduced to a fine mist. But I never failed to take a helpful action on any given round of combat prior to that point, even if it was taking an AoO for another player or rendering someone invisible as Katisha noted above.

If a character has such a crippling roleplay restriction that they cannot or will not suspend it in pursuit of cooperation, then it's going to lead to awkward situations.

Secret Wizard, you're discounting just how much benefit you get from said "fiendish" minmaxing.

Let's say in my original statistic distribution, I decided that I want to be pretty good at Perception and Disable Device, so I assign a 16 to WIS and 16 to DEX. I still want 16 INT for Investigator-y things, but as you say, I could spend a trait to get INT to UMD at least and thus continue to ignore CHA.

Now instead I take the Empiricist archetype and start with 20 INT. Now not only am I +2 "better" at Perception and Disable Device, I'm not penalized by lower WIS or DEX. I've also saved a trait and am again +2 "better" at UMD. At this point, I could spend my trait on, say, INT to Bluff and Diplomacy for even more complete coverage.

Each time I increase my INT, I automatically benefit in all of these skills; previously I benefitted only partially from particular statistic increases.

Let's also not discount the fact that the Investigator is (more-or-less) a spellcaster. The higher their primary statistic, the more extract slots they acquire, which means more Alchemical Allocations for all sorts of powerful stuff (including +10 to various skill checks and even more useful things).

Not to mention the fact that you don't actually lose your ability to craft alchemical items... stock up on +5 vs. poison-resist tonics if the possibility is that concerning.

Yes. There is an issue that the ability is overpowered and leaving it in is problematic.

How is it overpowered? No one has posited anything beyond 'it saves you some gold'. In fact...

Your build still works, it just needs to pay more money. Your build doesn't fall apart or fail to fire because you're missing a rod or two.

That's actually kind of the point when it comes to the necromancer or the Raise Dead character-- it DOES fall apart without access to Blood Money. Unlike Stoneskin or Heart of the Metal, which my Magus could (painfully) afford, the restrictions on raising the (un)dead in Pathfinder Society means that drastic measures need to be taken for the character to stay viable (in terms of 'being able to afford the base items the game assumes you have') while regularly exercising their primary mechanic.

But leaving that aside, I don't understand what 'your build isn't completely worthless without it' has to do with the argument against banning Blood Money. It wasn't banned previously, and it is now. Several people in the thread are asserting that this is an erroneous decision due to it not being powerful enough to necessitate a ban.

Various reasons have been suggested as to why it is too powerful, but none other than 'I don't like that it saves you money' seem to have any tracking. It can't be used efficiently from a wand, it takes incredible character-building acrobatics to try to negate the ability score damage aspect (and tons of spell slots), and the average cost savings barring past-end-of-play shenanigans seem comparable to the savings an alchemist gets with his 1/3rd price alchemical items over his career at best.

Several have been mentioned thus far, BigNorseWolf. A "team player" character built around the ability to Raise Dead using Blood Money, as opposed to Ultimate Mercy. Literally any necromancer desiring to regularly raise the dead. I will personally note that Heart of the Metal and Blood Money were a key component of my natural attacking Witch/Magus in PFS; now he has no way to reliably bypass damage reduction, without spending money desperately needed for Pearls of Power, rods, armor, you name it.

EDIT: To be clear, I still find the fact that it was banned at all mystifying, and would prefer a recant of the ban to grandfathering if possible. No evidence has been produced in this thread that it did anything other than provide people that worked hard for their savings some extra change in their pocket. It doesn't raise the dead, nor the undead, nor provide DR 10-- it just saves money at the cost of a spell slot and ability damage, or multiple spell slots (including cross-class spell access somehow).

Perhaps this would be a candidate to petition for grandfathering? I know that isn't an established goal to strive for with banned options but I think it could be useful in situations like this, where the majority of truly put-out players can live with not including Blood Money going forward but may have a number of extant spellcasters relying on the spell for various purposes.

I guess I'm always boggled by people who buy a book only for a mechanical advantage for a PFS character, when it's something like a single feat or a single spell.

This statement boggled me for a second. Why does it matter why I or anyone else buys a book? I've given my money to Paizo in support of their writing. I just happen to care about the text of some feats and spells in some books more than supplementary material regarding how to comport oneself at ancient Thassilonian dinner parties.

If you are making builds centred around it, you are already taking advantage of the spell, and begging for it to be banned!

*looks at a list of level 1 spells he can build entire characters around off the top of his head* Let's see, in no particular order... Blend, Snowball, Long Arm, Enlarge Person, Obscuring Mist, Moment of Greatness, Shocking Grasp, Color Spray, Silent Image...

That's just the wizard list.

Mild sarcasm intended, but to be clear, there are any number of powerful spells at any given spell level.

I was drafting a reply but it is now unnecessary. I agree with everything Lorewalker says above me.

I have been steadfastly working on a Spirit Dancer Medium since the Occult Adventure's release. (Not to hijack the thread topic, but does anyone have any idea if the new legendary spirits work with this archetype? Haven't gotten my hands on the book yet.)

I think the Spirit Dancer works a little better than the stock Medium in terms of capturing the feel of the 3.5 Binder's ability to creatively combine their spirits' powers. It's unfortunate that your powers become tied to a rage-esque ability that you can run out of, and that you need to wait a minute to switch spirits, but the ability to abruptly gain arcane or divine magic, extra attacks and weapon proficiencies, or huge skill or AC boosts "on the fly" seems strong.

You do get a very limited number of arcane/divine spells "known", and they do share slots, but it's still a huge boost to be able to cast Mage Armor at the beginning of the adventure and Lesser Restoration when it ends.

If a given combat doesn't seem to need magic at all, a Spirit Dancer could just snag an extra attack, near-full BAB hits, Weapon Specialization+, and proficiency with a strong polearm.

I've never been more prepared to answer this question! A friend is running Carrion Crown and asked me to record some dialogue of Drandle Dreng for the opener.

Enjoy!

Start saving right goddang now and buy a Maul of the Titans, the greatest greatclub ever printed. Check out the Gatecrasher sections in my Doorbreaker's Guide and tear right through this paper-thin world!

I'll toss in Butterfly's Sting and Quick Draw. You begin your attack sequence with a 15-20 critical hit range weapon; if you "catch" a crit, you drop the weapon and draw a weapon with a 4x critical hit modifier to deliver the critical hit (you are considered to be your own ally in Pathfinder). Best used with classes that provide good "general" to-hit boosts as opposed to bonuses affecting a single weapon or type (like Weapon Focus).

I think this trick works-- if you're a Charisma-fueled Psychic, you can take Noble Scion of War to base your initiative on Charisma. Then the armor check penalty should cease to apply.

The Paladin 2 / Disciple of Pain Psychic X build probably works well, as long as you're at peace with losing a spell level. You'd want to pick up natural attacks, Spirited Charge, or something else to make up for the slow BAB progression. The Mutation Mind archetype only gives up a single amplification in exchange for access to a few cool combat boosts, including the ability to become Huge-sized all the time at level 11 which is pretty neat.

I wish Final Embrace hadn't been rendered impossible to take on a PC. I know there were some intimidating-looking Constrict builds out there, but it was a really cool combat style...

My Gun Priest is really wishing he had just been an archer right now. Double-barreled guns were perhaps unbalanced, but without them the math looks pretty bleak compared to just filling the air with arrows.

I've recently built a tower shield specialist so I feel qualified to weigh in with powerful options I found.

Pick up an ability to grant teamwork feats to your allies (such as the Cavalier ability or the Battle Song of the People's Revolt).

Next you want to get as big as you can. Enlarge Person, or even something to get your PC (or companion capable of wielding tower shields) to Huge size.

Finally, snag the Shield Wall teamwork feat.You can buff AC a bit, but more importantly this lets you provide Total Cover for your entire party as a standard action.

You can combine this with Contigent Action to do some cool stuff, like automatically shield you and your companions from an archer ambush.

The feat Covering Shield can grant a pretty impressive bonus to your Reflex saves if you're really good with tower shields.

The Medium seems to be unplayable except in certain campaign situations due to the location clause. I "get" the flavor behind it, but I think its an unnecessarily harsh restriction on the class's abilities. I feel that the mechanism would have been more interesting if it functioned more like the 3.5 Binder, where only certain powerful but niche spirits needed a very specific location to bind them in.

And even then you could still use a feat to bypass said location clause.

Instead, if the Medium could, say, gain an errata granting the explicit ability to spend an hour to create a makeshift shrine for the Hierophant or construct a training dummy for a Champion spirit, etc etc, that would address the issue for me. Less extreme than having to find a library or a battleground.

It seems that if I wanted to play it in PFS or a non-suitable campaign setting, I'd have to take Relic Channeler every time to ensure access to my spirits.

Alternatively I would say at least the Champion can be bound in "places of violence", so at least after the first day of adventuring you're guaranteed to be able to bind a spirit!

Then what is the point of "each time"? That implies a separate instance of activation. Otherwise it would be "Once per turn, you gain a +3 Dodge bonus to AC whenever you have moved a distance equal to or greater than your speed" or something to that effect, no?

This is a nice thread. I approve.

tl;dr: Jyin-Gua the Spiritualist travels the world doing good deeds as a form of penance, convinced that only by purifying his own soul can he achieve the psychic balance necessary to lay his sister's hateful spirit to rest.

With the caveat that I haven't playtested, I will say that I like the idea of choosing 10 class skills like an Expert. Seems like it'd add a lot of ability to customize your Vigilante beyond the base vigilante "type" bonus.

Full round action changing also makes sense to me, as the current version seems to be a very long time, even longer than a Summoner summoning his eidolon.

Regarding the DC 15 Will save, let's take a look at a Ragechemist 7 / Master Chymist 2. Since you want to be a Master Chymist and that prestige class kicks in late, I'm assuming you're starting at a high-ish level.

This character's Will save will be +3 from his base class levels. If his WIS is 12 (reasonable on most point buys) that takes him to +4. Fate's Favored and the half-orc racial ability bring this save to +6.

Not much is needed feat-wise beyond Power Attack as far as I can tell. If we go ahead and add Iron Will, that's +8 to Will saves. A 9th level character has 46K WBL. He can easily afford a +3 Cloak of Resistance for 9K.

Furthermore, by using Alchemical Allocation and potions of Heroism (or actual extract slots) an alchemist can be pretty thoroughly assured that Heroism will be active. That brings our total Will save bonus to +13.

So-- at level 9 we only fail normal Ragechemist Will saves on a roll of natural 1. I didn't even plumb the depths of random items, etc. that could help. Enjoy!

I second choosing the Amulet bonded item. Not only does this give you some nice defensive spells, but it allows you to cheaply upgrade an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Let me go into more detail on the non White-Haired Witch natural attacking build:

1) Potentially dump STR and CHA as a witch normally would, and maximize DEX and CON, with INT as high as you can get it. Use Weapon Finesse, add damage with Piranha Strike (or Arcane Strike if you're not using your swift action), and use the cheap AoMF to get the Agile property. Use the half-elf alternate option to gain +2 to will saves. This helps with your defenses (as you're unable to wear heavy armor), initiative, Reflex saves, Fortitude saves, Will saves, HP, and everything else a frontliner needs.

2) Absolutely go Strength patron (ironically), and grab Fate's Favored to gain a +1 bonus to Divine Favor. You can also then grab a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier later for additional luck to AC and the ability to negate a critical hit 1/day.

3) Get a DEX belt first, then upgrade to DEX/CON (or buy an ioun stone of CON). Take Toughness as soon as you are able. Put your FCB into HP.

4) Consider taking Improved Unarmed Strike (or gaining it as a bonus feat through the Perfectionist Shavtoosh). This opens up some powerful combat options such as style feats and Feral Combat Training. You can even consider taking Hex Strike and delivering strong debuff hexes with your natural attacks, or just smacking people so hard they fall asleep (with Slumber).
4a) For your hexes, in addition to hexes that work with Hex Strike you absolutely want to look at Prehensile Hair and Flight for the combat boosts they provide.

5) You may wish to take an Improved Familiar which can apply buffs to you using wands during combat (or entire party buffs like Haste), or take care of useful utility casting like Glitterdust while you're mixing it up in melee.

6) You may wish to worship Sarenrae. This opens up the Blade of Mercy trait, which allows you to do nonlethal damage with all of your natural attacks that deal slashing damage. You can combine this with Enforcer and maximized Intimidate (not hard, take Extra Traits if needed for Bruising Intellect gaining INT to Intimidate, I did this on my combat witch/magus) to render enemies shaken, then at higher levels grab a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes +1 Cruel to apply sickened to a foe and gain temporary HP from killing them.

7) You may wish to maximize UMD, as the witch's spell list is limited on some very useful buff spells for martial combatants such as Long Arm.

8) You may wish to buy a spell-storing haramaki and/or add spell storing to your amulet of mighty fists at higher levels, to trigger defensive or offensive spells extra times per day for "free." You can still wear Mage Armor over your haramaki. Also recommended to buy a wand of Shield and trigger it liberally.

Hope this helps!

Here's a fun option for archery: cleric. Go Evangelist and worship a god who gives bow proficiency and doesn't care about the state of your immortal soul. Take a level of Diabolist for an imp animal companion. As an Outsider it has weapon proficiency, and its own BAB and feats. Give it a bow and all the archery feats. Start bardic performance, Blessing of Fervor, fill the air with insane amounts of arrows.

Bonus points: be an Aasimar, acquire a Celestial Imp with identity issues and Smite Evil.

You may like my Core Rulebook Monk/Cleric/Shadowdancer from this thread. It probably isn't the most powerful build but I think it puts a neat twist on the concept.

If I were to build it non-Core it would be a Cleric of Desna for the Butterfly's Sting feat to pass crits to my Shadow as well as AoOs (and Hasting it at higher levels).

I play in a fairly "competitive" PFS area. I've seen every broken character imaginable, and a lot of incredibly creative (but still dang broken) builds. And I have never seen someone bring a team of combat-trained Bisons into a scenario.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere, but this REALLY sounds like something that can be solved through talking with the people in question rather than trying to get all options banned.

This isn't like telling a druid he can't bring his animal companion because you don't like it. That's his class feature. This is telling the sixth guy at the table "Hey, I know you like Fluffy the Death Tiger, but Steve over there is excited to play his Fighter and we've got this adventure covered. Please leave Fluffy behind tonight."

It just seems like good gaming etiquette. If players are belligerent about it but are in the minority, well, it should be talked out like anything else (like if people are annoyed by a profusion of summoners and Eidolons, say).

Are there really pets other than the Combat-Trained Tiger that are unbalancing enough to propose banning the entire assortment? I enjoy buying odd animals for my PCs to ride around on in PFS. I'd be pretty sad if I couldn't have fun riding my giant lizards around just because people are tired of tigers overrunning scenarios.

Having played this module for PFS credit, I can tell you it works great both in terms of tying in with the PFS story (particularly if the characters have played any season 3 games) and would also work just fine even if other players have no idea what PFS is.

Unfortunately since it is a high-level module but not an adventure path like the poster above said, if you run for PFS credit it's all-or-nothing. You can't use some home game characters and some PFS characters; nor can you even use pregens because the level is too high.

That being said, I'd be happy to play it in a home game and then play it again with my PFS character if I was one of your PFS-playing home game players. It's a great set-up for some fun and can go very differently based on your party.

This thread title is combative and the thread seems to have been created to troll, or at least attempt to convince campaign leadership to repeal a Core rule that seems like a fun bonus to most players.

Wizards should be masters of magic, no need to be rude about it though.

If I'm reading too much into it I apologize, but as other posters have said these kinds of lists aren't cool even in non-Core.

The biggest merit is that you can take your character from any PFS table in, say, Hoboken, walk into a store in Salt Lake City, sit down with the same character, and keep on playing without issue.

Can confirm, this is a major benefit. I am moving across the country in a few short months, and I'm very happy to be able to continue playing in the "same" campaign regardless of my shift of coast.

I will still be pleased to find home games in my area, but PFS guarantees that I can play the game that I enjoy no matter where I go.

and secured a source of Enlarge should be having CMB of what +23 at 10th level?

In Core, maybe, but when we're talking Final Embrace builds we're not exactly talking Core. Let me do a rough breakdown of what a theoretical 10th-level Fighter can have going on in terms of her CMB (and I'm sure I forgot something since I'm not a Fighter expert by any means).

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Lucy has a +34-37 to Grapple, a +26-29 to Trip, and the ability to Whirlwind Attack and attack every enemy within the reach of her bite. Alternatively she could trade out Whirlwind Attack for Cleave and Great Cleave and retain Weapon Training bonuses, or surge for Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus instead of Whirlwind Attack. If we happen to be under the influence of Haste or Heroism, common buff spells accorded to the Fighter by this level, our to-hit goes up accordingly. Lucy also has no Amulet of Mighty Fists currently, no permancied Greater Magic Fang, or any of the other things she could have by level 10. Check the spoiler for the breakdown.

Therefore Lucy should be able to auto-succeed vs. foes without notable CMD, and stands a very reasonable chance (especially if buffed beyond the basics she can supply herself) to succeed against even astronomically-CMD'd foes. And, as I've said, I'm sure I've missed things and I don't believe I've spent all of her gold, although I have purchased some expensive items.

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That's quite the archival dig, Rynjin. Qigong monks are a pretty great example of a "mystical" class that was allowed to channel their innate magic in exciting and intuitive ways due to the SLA ruling.

There's no reason why the two can't coexist, CraziFuzzy. I know a lot of people were disappointed that the Iroran Paladin lacked any mechanical ability to access the Champion of Irori prestige class despite the great mechanical and flavorful progression.

The developers did drop an explanation if I recall, but I (and many others) still wish that the archetype and the prestige class worked better together. And it has been significantly longer than 2 weeks on that issue.

No reason to dismiss the possibility of change right now with the thought that time heals all wounds. I will still be just as a sad as I am now several months from now at the fact that my Druid Arcane Trickster concept can never come to fruition now, or that my character built around Quick Drawing mundane weapons (who is unable to further multiclass) can never effectively combat incorporeal creatures now that Arcane Strike is lost to him.

And I'm much less affected by this then other people I know, and others that have expressed their melancholy about this change. Think how they'll feel in a few months.

OK, further follow-up, CraziFuzzy:

The last home campaign I played in featured a buddy of mine playing a dedicated crafting Arcanist. He did everything in his power to maximize his use of Spellcraft to ignore the listed prerequisites for items, as he actually had rather limited magical ability due to prestige classing nonfavorably and lacking easy access to new spells to learn.

I played a Dwarven Rogue with Power Attack. Had I been a Gnomish Rogue, I could easily have seen my concept working marvelously with Arcane Strike in place of Power Attack; had my friend not been playing his Arcanist, I could even express the gnomish love of tinkering with new things by maximizing my Spellcraft, perhaps investing a Skill Focus, and take a feat to, say, craft Wands to use to support the party. Then maybe start crafting Rods to help out my Sorcerer companion, who lacks the spellcraft, spells known, and free feat slots to ever think of crafting them himself.

EDIT: Don't get hung up on Gnomes, though. An Elven Ranger has access to a racial SLA. He could be the Ranger archetype obsessed with studying Constructs, and want to leverage his SLA to Craft Constructs of his own at a higher level. He's uninterested in the further baggage of arcane magic and study that would come with leveling in Wizard, perfectly happy to ride his mechanical companion into battle at high levels instead.

*shrug* Crafting really doesn't take all that much magical energy, insofar as I understand it. It's more about potential energy and understanding of Spellcraft. In fact, the crafting rules explicitly let you select out prerequisites (even multiple prerequisites) by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5 each time, to represent the extra effect skillful study of Spellcraft imparts.

A Rogue has a huge number of skill points to invest in Spellcraft, and should be able to reap the same dividends if he has some baseline magical ability to benefit.

Arcane Strike and Riving Strike via Minor Magic was just about the only thing rogues could do that slayers and investigators couldn't.

In the interest of fairness, any class can take a trait to add an arcane spell-like ability to their repertoire which would power Arcane Strike. Some of the traits even set the CL equal to the character level, allowing for full Arcane Strike progression, or Crafting feat progression, etc. I still see this trait which grants innate magical ability as a very sensical reason for Arcane Strike et. al. to function.

Regarding the rogue enchanting magic items, it makes more sense to utilize the feat that is designed for this purpose (Master Craftsman), than a loophole in the rule wording to backdoor it in.

That somewhat addresses the issue but is hardly all-inclusive. In fact I'd argue that Master Craftsman is more of a kludgy patch than the SLA qualifying for actual Crafting feats. Additionally, that feat does nothing for the canny Rogue who would like to support the party with a Staff of Fireballs, for example.

OK, a bit, a couple of hours, same difference. I do not use Hero Lab so this is just a rough outline typed out off the top of my head, copy-pasting applicable stuff from my post on the playtest boards.

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Obviously this isn't a perfectly optimized character, but I tried to hit upon the points that I think are important for playing a Spiritualist. The Spiritualist himself focuses entirely on spellcasting, and leaves all physical altercations to his Phantom. He makes the best possible use of wands and his limited spells known to provide as many buffs to his Phantom and to the party as possible, while leveraging any battlefield control options he can. The Phantom makes the best use of her skills that she can, including using her high CHA to UMD wands for additional combat options.

By splitting the character into two halves in this fashion, sharing slots with the Phantom becomes far less painful. The Phantom does not need a headband slot item, but the Spiritualist does; similarly, the Spiritualist does not need a neck slot item, but the Phantom will need an Amulet of Mighty Fists. And so on and so forth.

Why would it cause confusion, Andrew? The Fox's solution is pretty simple. People aren't as easily confused as you seem to be intimating, on the whole, I feel. And those tens of gamers' potential dissatisfaction can easily lead to a ripple effect on their communities. I know of at least two people who essentially decided not to play Core due to the fact that their Mystic Theurges were just shy of playing their first game as a Theurge. This has a larger ripple effect in that while I was previously able to field games of Core in my local community, at present I'm unable to do so, leading to less Pathfinder for everyone else. "Every vote counts," if you want to quote things.
...

EDIT: One of these two individuals loves to plan out his characters, and had plotted his Mystic Theurge's progression lovingly all the way to level 20. That's a ton of effort down the drain and it left him really morose-- but a simple solution like what The Fox or I proposed could rekindle his excitement very easily.

If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no evidence has been provided that there are characters being created that are too powerful, no? I mean I'm sure people on the forums went "the sky is falling!" when an early-entry Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge whisked by, but I'm curious as to the Paizo staffs' take on that?

There ya go then. I want to have as much fun in my characters' careers as possible, not wait around wanly waiting for it to "kick in" if I can just get through 'x' more games...

Well, uh, I don't want to get in a debate about this (please don't derail the thread debating about this guys) but... I'm pretty sure anyone can agree a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 5 is not gonna be keeping up with his peers very well. Even if you still manage to see this as an effective character you have to admit it's stretched pretty thin and has a number of very awkward levels in the character's progression.

I do need some help in framing this as paizo hating martials. Any ideas?

I'd like to keep the Paizo staffs' interest in this thread from turning into annoyance so I'm not gonna touch that.

To be fair the Bloatmage is still a perfectly decent option.

True, but that actually reinforces the point even more. The SLA wasn't even needed for more "power" in this case, it literally just let me play more of the prestige class I like, sooner, as a member of the organization I like.

My sympathy is for the noble prestige class, that had seen a resurgence in popularity that will likely die down now. I love prestige classes and the number one thing that has always saddened me about Pathfinder is the de-emphasis on prestige classes as "viable" options rather than just flavorful ones.

I don't feel that I should have to lose character efficacy just to be part of an awesome organization that I love the lore for. And, frankly, I can say I'm part of that organization without being the prestige class, and without being sad because my character is technically weaker. Don't even get Favored Class Bonuses on prestige classes, one of the niftiest little additions Paizo made to D&D...

The original SLA ruling made me feel like I can be a cool AND competent Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight, or Bloatmage, or any other prestige class improved by early entry. And now I won't get to experience that, as I hadn't made a character to take advantage of that yet and now I won't be able to.

Grandfathering with a future grace period date was an invitation for abuse under a strict time limit.

John, thanks for engaging with me about this idea. I'd like to posit that this potential grace period would not invite nearly so much abuse, as the Aasimar/Tiefling grandfathering required playing only a single game before the end date. That's very easy to do, even for people that don't play very often.

On the other hand, trying to grandfather in a Mystic Theurge would take a lot of scenarios or at least several modules since you would need to get to level 4.1 in order to qualify for the grandfathering, in the most efficient Mystic Theurge path.

As far as other classes that could be grandfathered, these classes are much, much weaker than the early-entry Mystic Theurge. Early-entry Eldritch Knights are cool, but are already mechanically overshadowed by Paizo's own Magus class; and it still takes until level 3.1 to pull that off.

The only thing i can think of off of the top of my head that you can get into at level 2 and has any kind of "power" element to it is the Bloatmage. While cool, I've never seen anyone complain about a Blcatmage, or even notice if they were early-entried or not to be frank.

Does that make sense, John? I'm hoping to create a compelling argument here that could counteract the potential intense sadness of a decent amount of players. I don't even have any stake in this as I have no such characters in the works.

EDIT: I'd really hope to not get this discussion drowned out, incidentally, so if anyone posting non-constructively could... um... wait a bit on that until we've hashed this out, I'd appreciate it. It's for everyone's benefit I think!

Excuse me while I burn half of my personal “Cool Character Compendium” and do a bit of retraining on 2-3 of my PFS characters...

On a serious note, it would be nice if a grace period was introduced in order to let anyone who was already planning an entire character around a concept this ruling obviates get their one or so games in they needed to be grandfathered. Is that a possibility, John? Because I'm sure a lot of people are on the cusp of entering one of those prestige classes and are very sad right now.

EDIT: Especially anyone who had just taken their first Mystic Theurge level but had not gotten to play a game yet. Now they're stuck at Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 or an even worse level distribution with no way of retraining that as far as I can tell.

numerous posts trying to mathematically prove door weight

You guys are reading way too much into the spell. It explicitly states that it is designed to open doors, in addition to other objects. Heck, it's the first thing referenced in the spell.

You can open or close (your choice) a door...

It then goes on to the say that the spell fails if trying to affect an object more than 30 pounds in weight, and lists as an example:

Thus doors, chests, and similar objects sized for enormous creatures...

A normal door is not "sized for enormous creatures." Unless the door is explicitly called out of being made of a heavier-than-normal material (such as a stone or metal door, or a door specifically called out for its weighty construction) the spell should function as intended. Any other interpretation is pedantry that clearly goes against the intent of the spell.

If you don't want enterprising young wizards opening and closing your doors from afar, explicitly designate them as being made of solid material weighing in excess of 30 pounds. Otherwise don't mess with the basic function of the spell.

Open/Close is amazingly effectual for the average adventuring party. The ability to open (and close) doors remotely is surprisingly powerful, ruining any number of ambushes. Send the perceptive fellow to the front, unlock the door, then stand well clear of reprisals from the other side as the mage snaps his fingers from across the room.

It can be used "offensively" in combat, as well. A recent PFS scenario tasks the PCs with infiltrating an enemy stronghold. We made some noise escaping a cell, and guards were in-bound. My Spiritualist and his Phantom both readied actions to close one of the doors when it is opened; this effectively trapped the enemy in the other room, unable to join the fight, with a cantrip (effectively two cantrips, since the Phantom in incorporeal form can't do much more than pick up and open/close things). Meanwhile my Spiritualist, who was playing up, stayed safely out of range of frustrated enemy axes.

Turns out the move action requirement to open a door is very brutal if an annoying mage on the opposing team keeps closing the door on you whenever you try it. I know at least one GM in my local area has used it to create some hilarious distress with a spellcasting PFS bad guy in, shall we say, a uniquely-designed area.

Actually, semi-justified plug! Check out the Pathfinder Doorbreaker's Guide I wrote, packed with options for defeating doors, portcullises, and anything else that might bar an adventurer's passage.

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Hello Pathfinder people! After developing my first character build for the Core Campaign, a brawling divinely-empowered Shadowdancer, I've decided to make a miniature "Character Compendium" designed to showcase creative builds for my personal favorite character option, the prestige class.

Thus far I have roughed out this Shadowdancer, whom I am seeking feedback on below, as well as a mounted Dragon Disciple and a necromancer Mystic Theurge. Next up is probably an Eldritch Knight and/or Arcane Archer to complete the core group of powerful prestigious characters. If anyone has any suggestions for a build they would like to see included, please let me know in the comments below.

Please note that the formatting for this character is rough, as I've just been tinkering with it in an Evernote document. Comments, suggestions, and critiques are welcome-- especially anything that seems like it might address build weaknesses, which I will note below the character stat block. This character is built to level 11, the nominal limit of Society play, but has been built with low-level play considerations in mind.

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The Pharasman Shadowcaster is haunted by the shade of a loved one, barred from Pharasma's Boneyard until they can accomplish some great task. The Shadowcaster typically enhances himself and his shadow companion with divine magic, then wades into the fray with fists flying. Despite his personal tragedy, the Shadowcaster is not without compassion, and will attempt to render foes unconscious when possible with nonlethal attacks or his divine abilities. He will not, however, shed a tear if those that interfere with his goals are sent to the Boneyard earlier than their appointed time.

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Let me know what you guys think! The CRB is surprisingly deep with its offered options, and I think this character offers a fun twist on the generic Shadowdancer concept. PLEASE NOTE to me if I accidentally took any option that is not legal in the Core Campaign; similarly, feel free to suggest (in spoiler tags) boons that might be useful to increase the effectiveness of this character if said boons are easily obtainable.

And I certainly didn't go out of my way to try to make it bad or undesirable for players.

Be that as it may, it's still certainly possible for said players to feel as though the option has become bad or undesirable, leading to frustration and causing said players to wonder why the design team chose to balance that option accordingly.

"Why does Paizo hate Warpriest" is an oversimplification; more accurately, it would be "why does every change made to the Warpriest since the point that we thought it was perfect make it, in our eyes, demonstrably worse."

And there's definitely precedent for the design team going too far on scaling back game options, such as the infamous Crane Style change that is still being tinkered with even as of quite recently. So if there's a chance that expressing displeasure at these changes will cause them to be reconsidered, then I think it's a fine thing to do as long as it doesn't bleed into personal attacks.