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Just saying up front that I would expect this boon to be pretty rare and hard to get but I think it be very cool to add. It would make many more prestige classes interesting options or multiclassing in general.
Taken from Inner Sea Magic:
Eclectic Training: Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your fame score reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in-you increase your effective caster level in that class(including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1 to a maximum equal to your "Character Level" (I edited this from total Hit Dice because of Inspire Greatness). Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this applies since this bonus is retroactive.
There is also an upgraded version of this... perhaps there should be a difficult way to gain access to it? Perhaps stacking Eclectic Training boons?
Esoteric Training: When your fame score reaches 35 the bonus from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited to you total Character level). You may select a second spell casting class to gain a +1 to effective caster level.
Does Eclectic Training have a place in the campaign as a very rare boon? Esoteric? I think it could be very exciting because of the wealth of options it would open up and a chance to make a cool character concept.
isnt there alreay a few traits that increase your caster lvl +1
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Does Eclectic Training have a place in the campaign as a very rare boon? Esoteric? I think it could be very exciting because of the wealth of options it would open up and a chance to make a cool character concept.
This is not meant antagonisticly but as an honest critique. (Need to get that out of the way first.)
This ability isn't a requirement to open up a chance to make a cool character concept, it would make a cool character concept MUCH more powerful.
Eclectic Training is an extremely powerful thing. The 35 Fame version is probably the most powerful non-mythic option over the course of a campaign. Among the things it enables are full-casting progression Arcane Tricksters and Mystic Theurges who are down only one class level. For prestige classes that don't give a spellcasting level every class level, that gap is one of the built-in balancing factors. Eclectic training removes that balance factor.
Overall, it's just too powerful.
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I think Eclectic Training on its own is more than fine. Esoteric of course is powerful (the mystic theurge would be down 2 class levels actually but still good). If only Eclectic is available this option isn't even near many of the grandfathered MTs in the campaign. I think giving more reason to play arcane trickster is a good thing though. Even with the new 1 level rogue dip entry now it turns out that is still inferior to a full wizard casting Sense Vitals.
Powerful options in limited distribution aren't anything new; look at Skinwalker and Samsaran. The proposed boon even has built in limits preventing it from making you better at casting than your base class options would be. Besides changing which class features you are receiving it will never make your character beyond the spellcasting power of someone who has full levels in their class.
The boon gives many concepts who needed a bit of a push a chance to exist and I think a limited release of the boon would be fine for the campaign.
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Let's look at a fighter wizard Ray specialist.
Esoteric training would allow, for the loss of a single caster level and spell progression, to use and martial weapon, gain 4 feats (one of which could be weapon specialization that could be added to Ray spell attacks) and 8 more hit points.
At 8th level you'd be at Sorcerer spell progression and 7th caster level.
Way too powerful.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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From what I've seen, non-race boons for PFS tend to be fun little things that are a nice added bonus for some characters and borderline to completely useless on other characters, but usually not earth-shattering to the point where people would build characters entirely around them (at least not from a mechanical standpoint).
If Esoteric Training was made into a boon, it would absolutely be something people based their builds around.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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From what I've seen, non-race boons for PFS tend to be fun little things that are a nice added bonus for some characters and borderline to completely useless on other characters, but usually not earth-shattering to the point where people would build characters entirely around them (at least not from a mechanical standpoint).
If Esoteric Training was made into a boon, it would absolutely be something people based their builds around.
This.
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From what I've seen, non-race boons for PFS tend to be fun little things that are a nice added bonus for some characters and borderline to completely useless on other characters, but usually not earth-shattering to the point where people would build characters entirely around them (at least not from a mechanical standpoint).
Just to point out not all non-race boons are like this. At one of the more recent conventions my local store had there was a raffle for a boon that was a full page wall of text of amazing bonuses. From what I was told it was 1 of 2 in existence and after the winner received it their PFS number had to be recorded and mailing information copied so PFS leadership could send it to them.
There is precedent for strong mechanic non-race options given out in very limited quantities.
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Even Eclectic is very powerful. For a class whose raison d' etre is based on spellcasting (wizard, sorcerer, many cleric and oracle builds) it's essentially an extra class level when multiclassing.
For prestige classes that either skip just the first level of spellcasting (Patfhfinder Savant; Eldritch Knight) or are 3/4 spellcasting progression (Arcane Archer, Nature Warden, etc.) it would remove the major balancing factor.
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From what I've seen, non-race boons for PFS tend to be fun little things that are a nice added bonus for some characters and borderline to completely useless on other characters, but usually not earth-shattering to the point where people would build characters entirely around them (at least not from a mechanical standpoint).
Just to point out not all non-race boons are like this. At one of the more recent conventions my local store had there was a raffle for a boon that was a full page wall of text of amazing bonuses. From what I was told it was 1 of 2 in existence and after the winner received it their PFS number had to be recorded and mailing information copied so PFS leadership could send it to them.
There is precedent for strong mechanic non-race options given out in very limited quantities.
I'm curious to know what this boon was. Other than a few one-off boons that were given to specific people for their service above and beyond even the level of campaign service coins (and aren't "power" boons - I don't think anyone considers an "extra-slow track" [1/4 XP] option to be powerful) I don't know of any that were that limited.
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One-off boons aren't something really worth discussing, since you'll likely never see it. Although, I know of both positive and negative experiences of sitting at a table with one of the goblins or the single PFS assassin out there.
The most limited race boon I know of is the goblin (30 or so world-wide), followed by the fetchling (maybe twice that?), and neither one is anywhere near as powerful as even the basic version of your suggestion.
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For prestige classes I think it is generally agreed most are poor character options. I don't think one spellcasting level is too significant an impact especially for the prestige classes who lose more than 1 level.
I can't remember the name of the boon. It was some sort of scaling cloak of resistance for a body slot with tons of extra benefits on it. It literally filled the entire page with text.
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One-off boons aren't something really worth discussing, since you'll likely never see it. Although, I know of both positive and negative experiences of sitting at a table with one of the goblins or the single PFS assassin out there.
The most limited race boon I know of is the goblin (30 or so world-wide), followed by the fetchling (maybe twice that?), and neither one is anywhere near as powerful as even the basic version of your suggestion.
Samsaran is clearly more powerful than the above option. When it was introduced you were fully capable of having Dominate Monster at level 11. With the removal of summoner as well as an additional resources house rule (I like to think I drew some attention which caused this) it has been toned down slightly.
As for Skinwalker the ragebred, fanglord, and nightskulk are all incredibly powerful for the options they provide.
Again I would like to point out the self limiting factor of making it impossible to exceed the spellcasting abilities of the base class option is a big reason this would be an interesting boon.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Your suggested boon would be so effective that it would make or break entire character concepts, the concept of rarity really does not help in that case.
I could eventually see something like this as the reward for a lot of work, maybe our new Master of Spells could grant her own GM Star rewards card.
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From what I've seen, non-race boons for PFS tend to be fun little things that are a nice added bonus for some characters and borderline to completely useless on other characters, but usually not earth-shattering to the point where people would build characters entirely around them (at least not from a mechanical standpoint).
Just to point out not all non-race boons are like this. At one of the more recent conventions my local store had there was a raffle for a boon that was a full page wall of text of amazing bonuses. From what I was told it was 1 of 2 in existence and after the winner received it their PFS number had to be recorded and mailing information copied so PFS leadership could send it to them.
There is precedent for strong mechanic non-race options given out in very limited quantities.
Sounds like a Charity Boon. The suggestions above are more powerful then the charity boon I've seen. Even if the boon was a full page of text.
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Why is it bad this is a boon with a strong mechanic?
Let's start by hypothesizing that this boon is available to anyone. (Even if it requires completing a specific scenario, anyone can get it.) Having a strong mechanical boon simply increases the power level in general. Which makes older scenarios less challenging and if you increase new scenario challenges to compensate you discriminate against those that don't have the boon.
Now let's go the other way and use your original assumption that this be a "very rare boon." I will define that as either being 1) a charity auction boon, or 2) Given out as a door prize at a specific convention. In either case only one or two (definitely less than 5) in the world. Here's the problems with those two:
1) It has the scent of "pay-to-win." While some people may be happy just to know that there is one in circulation, quite a few would be upset that someone with more disposable income would be able to make a more powerful character.
2) The fact that you "missed" having a chance at the boon is also a psychological negative.
In the "very rare" case it comes down to the amount of goodwill generated or lost. For a powerful boon, experience has shown the amount of goodwill lost far exceeds that gained
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The ideal is no boon gets traded for money though. It's not really pay to win.
While boons do generate some ill will from exclusivity I think this has been found acceptable to some extent. Not everyone gets access to every race and option and that is just how it is.
I would be in the group happy to known it exists just for the chance that one would somehow end up in my hands if I tried for it. It has happened before.
Again the base version of only 1 progression is pretty limited power wise. It is hard to compete with base class progression and many features for classes aren't accessible with a single level dip.
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My only exposure/experience with 'Charity Auction Boons' was GenCon 2014.
I was on a slight budget, but I figured I could swing up to a hundred dollar bid on something at the charity auction, it was in a good cause...
And the first bid for the limited class option blew any hope I had for bidding out of the water.
About the only bidding that I even stood a chance in was for some piece of tech that I really wasn't interested in, and even *that* blew well past my bid by the time bidding was closed.
Did it leave a rotten feeling in my gut? Yes.
Could an auction be done better, maybe a lot more bid-able items(?), to NOT have that sort of feeling? That's uncertain, but those viewing this as 'pay-to-win' do have a very valid argument here, based on personal experience.
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My only exposure/experience with 'Charity Auction Boons' was GenCon 2014.
I was on a slight budget, but I figured I could swing up to a hundred dollar bid on something at the charity auction, it was in a good cause...
And the first bid for the limited class option blew any hope I had for bidding out of the water.
About the only bidding that I even stood a chance in was for some piece of tech that I really wasn't interested in, and even *that* blew well past my bid by the time bidding was closed.
Did it leave a rotten feeling in my gut? Yes.
Could an auction be done better, maybe a lot more bid-able items(?), to NOT have that sort of feeling? That's uncertain, but those viewing this as 'pay-to-win' do have a very valid argument here, based on personal experience.
Having never been to gencon and having not ever seen this auction I expect the bidding probably be easily 500+ for unique character options yes? You are at a convention for people with disposable income bidding on something to raise money for a charity. I don't know that I can really consider this sort of thing pay to play when it is that limited in access. They aren't there to make money for themselves at all.
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Having never been to gencon and having not ever seen this auction I expect the bidding probably be easily 500+ for unique character options yes? You are at a convention for people with disposable income bidding on something to raise money for a charity. I don't know that I can really consider this sort of thing pay to play when it is that limited in access. They aren't there to make money for themselves at all.
If one sat down to a table to play and someone whipped out insert some really off-the-wall character that under normal circumstances no GM, player, or staffer could get access to, that'd be a horrific feeling.
ie, 'Why does this person get this, when I cannot ever?'
This then feeds into 'Oh, well, I guess if I didn't spend money on, oh, hygiene, food, lodging, I guess I could have afforded that. Maybe, if I was at special convention when special bids happened'.
It's not a very good community-building mechanism. If anything, it's a community-destroying mechanism, because it promotes an elitism of currency which does not account for the *very* wide base of economic background that PFS comes from.
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Yeah but it raised a lot of money for charity.
There was also only one of it. It's not like everyone else lost an option this person just gained one.
I realize traditionally this game can be played very cheap. It is incredibly accessible to anyone who would enjoy it. But it doesn't surprise even a little bit that when someone is given a chance to spend more on their hobby they do so for something unique. I know I have spent probably about $3,000 on digital cosmetics on a certain video game that have no mechanical benefits at all.
I think some things are acceptable when done for a well intended reason (charity fundraiser) and would have minimal overall impact on game play.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Or, you know, you could not let something like that get in the way of your fun. I have found it very interesting the one or two times I've run in a game with someone with a charity boon. If everyone but me could get an option, that would make me feel bad, but one person willing to give so much to charity? It makes me feel proud just to sit at a table with them. That said, the proposed boon wouldn't even have that as a benefit. Playing with the single catfolk ot android or whatever is noticeable and awesome, this boon ups a character's power significantly without changing its flavor pretty much at all. Most at tge table wouldn't even realize it was in use without crunching numbers.
Actually, this just made me think about how weird Esoteric/Eclectic Training would be as a boon on an in-universe level.
"Ah, yes, I've received some extra special magic training, so my magic is more potent than you'd expect. Oh, you'd like to know where I received it so you could get some too? Sorry, you're just not famous or special enough."
When a character can, without anything else other than fulfilling mechanical requirements, be a Living Monolith, Lantern Bearer, Steel Falcon, Knight of Ozem, or Riftwarden...
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For prestige classes I think it is generally agreed most are poor character options.
Oh dear, you've hit on one of my passion topics. It IS generally agreed that prestige classes aren't as powerful as single-classing. In fact, many of the people who were with Paizo when Pathfinder was first being developed (James and Jason are the ones I have heard say this) have said that was a design goal. That prestige classes would be something with unique flavor rather than being something players took because the mechanics were superior to a base class.
However, a "poor character option?" Absolutely not.
Now, bear in mind this is coming from someone who plays a Cleric/Envoy of Balance, Inquisitor/Evangelist, Arcanist/Magaambyan Arcanist, and a Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler amongst other prestige class combos. All of these were taken for the flavor and the unusual (though not particularly powerful) options the prestige classes offer so that my character can be unique. Rather than go into detail on what I gave up for each I'll point to the Evangelist in particular. I made the conscious choice for my super-high Wisdom character to essentially give up a level of spellcasting progression. I knew it was a tradeoff. I knew that (in 1-11 PFS play) I would be "stronger" if I took all inquisitor levels. Just being delayed a level in being able to cast heroism is kinda painful. And that doesn't even count all the other inquisitor abilities I'm a level behind on. But for the unique flavor of my character, it really fit. And even though I'm "not mechanically as strong" as I could be I'm certainly not dragging parties down. I can hold my own and I bring a character type rarely seen that appears to have accomplished the goal of being fun for other players.
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I don't like that prestige classes have to worse mechanics. Seeing a way for them to be better, even if extremely rarely, is appealing to me.
I have 7 prestige classes taken among my characters. I understand the draw of it being unique. I just want to make it as good as single classing now and then.
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Actually no I'm pretty sure I've given arguments here. At least more than you have offered back when I asked you a question.
I think it makes different class combinations better especially when factoring prestige class options. It is intended to be a reward to make your character better.
The boon also fits into the Pathfinder Society. It is a guild boon and the society is a guild.
Its not the place of PFS boons to try to undo fundamental mechanical balances
Literally every boon changes mechanics available to the player. Isn't that the point?
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I like the idea of a more specialized version of this boon for prestige classes. A "Child of Winter" boon that specifically removes the casting progression loss for a Winter Witch, for example.
This would be a really cool way to make this a series of boons and would draw interest to more classes while limiting access to options the PFS team wouldn't want. I really like this idea.
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Says who? I think it can and I don't think it be an issue if it did.Whether you can think of them or not, other people have and brought up several dozen issues that the boon would create with no more counter argument or engagement but -i want it-.
Pretty much this. Everyone understands that you wish you had a boon that allowed you to break the balancing factors built in to the spellcasting classes, but quite a few people have posted legitimate reasons why they wouldn't like to see this as an option. So even if there was a chance that this boon would see the light of day I think its safe to say its even less likely now that Paizo can refer to this thread, and see how much of the community is against the option. I would also like to add my name to the ever growing list of people opposed to this idea.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I would be very hesitant to include the Eclectic Training or Esoteric Training options. They're very potent options that could work well within a home game that focuses on the guild/school system in Inner Sea Magic. Within the context of the organized play program, which already grants special, mostly-class-agnostic benefits for earning Fame and spending Prestige Points, these Training options are not a good fit.
I would much rather create boons that open up new options, grant less build-central benefits, and/or encourage players to pursue and develop their characters' stories in sundry ways (e.g. the Missing Mentor boon, which rewards a PC for searching for her missing mentor in multiple places). While I'm usually a fan of build-diversification boons, such as those that provide an untrained PC a modest baseline bonus when using a certain skill, I'm very cautious when it comes to boons that allow a PC to maintain the near-full benefits of a class while multiclassing (and thus gaining even more benefits from the second class). This is especially true for spellcasters, which popular opinion holds are more potent than their martial-minded colleagues. Pathfinder RPG relies heavily on these choices and trade-offs, so an ability that negates that underlying design is one unlikely to enter the campaign.
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I'm very cautious when it comes to boons that allow a PC to maintain the near-full benefits of a class while multiclassing (and thus gaining even more benefits from the second class). This is especially true for spellcasters, which popular opinion holds are more potent than their martial-minded colleagues. Pathfinder RPG relies heavily on these choices and trade-offs, so an ability that negates that underlying design is one unlikely to enter the campaign.
I think classes tend to reward you for progressing in that same class beyond just spells but thanks for having a look.
I still really liked Exguardi's idea though.
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My only exposure/experience with 'Charity Auction Boons' was GenCon 2014.
I was on a slight budget, but I figured I could swing up to a hundred dollar bid on something at the charity auction, it was in a good cause...
And the first bid for the limited class option blew any hope I had for bidding out of the water.
About the only bidding that I even stood a chance in was for some piece of tech that I really wasn't interested in, and even *that* blew well past my bid by the time bidding was closed.
Did it leave a rotten feeling in my gut? Yes.
Could an auction be done better, maybe a lot more bid-able items(?), to NOT have that sort of feeling? That's uncertain, but those viewing this as 'pay-to-win' do have a very valid argument here, based on personal experience.
That's why when I was running 2D Con's PFS, we didn't do the charity boon as an auction. We did it as a raffle, for $5 a ticket, I am 100% sure we raised more money than we would have otherwise with it, as more people put this money in for a chance.
I am ambivalent here. Yes it is powerful, especially for pure strain wizards and clerics, whose abilities are almost entirely spell dependent.
******** Irony Alert ********
You should consider just how much a caster class is penalized for multiclassing. Sure and they are casters, and anything that makes them weaker and less fun is just good for the game, but just how many times has that poorly built caster failed to do the job he should be doing because he couldn't cast adventure level appropriate spells yet because the idiot wanted to add underpowered "flavor" abilities. Only martial characters should receive actual benefits from multiclassing.
I have experimented with this, and it was less broken than you would think. Even the wizard, who did the best by it, was less focused and sub optimal because he was less razor focused. To be fair, he was not Conjuration school, which could have been more effective