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Which is the best for low level (i.e. 5th)?
Assume I already have Augment Summoning
I have a Cleric NPC at 5th, and I am trying to decide which one to get. While SEM and SNM are invalid for this NPC, I would like discussion across all of these.
Below is the text of these feats.
/cevah
ESM: Evolved Summoned Monster
FS: Ferocious Summons (Orc/Half-Orc)
HS: Harrowed Summoning
SacS: Sacred Summons
SupS: Superior Summoning
SEM: Summon Evil Monster
SGM: Summon Good Monster
SNM: Summon Neutral Monster
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
Prerequisite(s): Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast summon monster I.
Benefit: Each time you cast a summon monster spell, you can select a 1-point evolution from those available to a summoner's eidolon. Your summoned creature gains this evolution. The summoned creature must conform to any limitations of the evolution. (For instance, only a creature with a reach of 10 feet or more can have the pull evolution.) Evolutions that grant additional attacks or enhance existing attacks can be applied only to Medium or larger summoned creatures.
If you summon more than one creature with a single spell, only one creature gains this evolution.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, select an additional 1–point evolution for one of your summoned creatures. If you summon more than one creature, you can choose to apply all the evolutions to a single summoned creature, or split them between the creatures summoned.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration), half-orc or orc.
Benefit: Creatures you summon gain the ferocity universal monster ability.
Prerequisite(s): Harrowed.
Benefit(s): When you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell or use a spell-like ability to summon one or more creatures, you can draw two random cards from a complete harrow deck you own. Doing so adds both a somatic component (if the spell does not already have one) and a focus component (the harrow deck) to the spell, but does not increase the spell's casting time.
For the duration of the spell, each summoned creature gains a +4 enhancement bonus to the corresponding ability scores of the drawn card's suits. If both cards are the same suit, each summoned creature gains a +6 bonus to that ability score instead. If either card's alignment is a true match for the summoned creatures' alignment, the duration of the spell is doubled, while drawing an opposite match halves the duration of the spell. If both a true match and an opposite match are drawn, the spell's duration is unchanged.
A creature summoned in this way is distinctly altered by the cards drawn. Its physical appearance reflects the visual elements of the cards. The creature's personality is also influenced by the cards, but not so much as to alter its alignment.
Prerequisites: Aura class feature, ability to cast summon monster.
Benefit: When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.
Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
Prerequisite(s): Evil alignment.
Benefit(s): When casting summon monster, you also have access to the list of evil monsters on this page. When summoning a creature from this list, your debased nature allows you to cast the spell as a standard action. The summoned creature appears as normal for the spell but can’t act until next your next turn. It is not flat-footed, however, and it can make attacks of opportunity as normal. These effects don’t apply for creatures from the standard list that aren’t also on this list.
Special: If you possess the Sacred Summons feat, you can apply it to a creature on this list whose alignment (as opposed to its subtype or subtypes) matches your aura.
Prerequisite: Good alignment.
Benefit: When casting summon monster, you also gain access to the list of good monsters listed here. Your righteous determination grants these summoned creatures the Diehard feat. You may still summon creatures from the standard list, but without the Diehard feat.
Prerequisite(s): Chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, or neutral alignment.
Benefit(s): When casting a summon monster spell, you gain access to the list of neutral creatures at right. You may also summon creatures from the standard summon monster list and apply the counterpoised creature simple template to applicable creatures instead of the celestial or fiendish template.
Creatures you summon from the list and creatures you summon with the counterpoised template gain a +2 resistance bonus on Will saves.
Sacred Summons first. Then, Superior Summoning later when you're throwing multiple Lantern Archons at the bad guys. Anything that gives Ferocity or Diehard is pretty useless, since, unless there's a FAQ I'm not aware of, summoned creatures disappear when they hit 0 HP.
Pretty sure there is a FAQ/errata allowing Diehard/Ferocity to work. I recall seeing it.
/cevah
EDIT: FAQ
Half-Orc, Ferocious Summons: How does this ability work if a summoned creature disappears when it reaches 0 hp?
The summoned creature does not disappear at 0 hp, instead it disappears when killed (when its current hp get to a negative amount equal to its Constitution score).
Standard action summoning is vital, so Sacred first. Summon Good adds a lot of utility & common sense suggests that if the feat gives Diehard then the summoned monsters don't disappear at 0 HP, & if you accept that then it makes low level summons a lot better & is still useful later on.
This is for a 5th level NPC cleric, no advancement, so no later on at higher level, so that could change priorities.
/cevah
Standard action summoning is vital, so Sacred first. Summon Good adds a lot of utility & common sense suggests that if the feat gives Diehard then the summoned monsters don't disappear at 0 HP, & if you accept that then it makes low level summons a lot better & is still useful later on.
Looking at the lists, there don't seem to be many low level (SM I, SM II, SM III) entries. Are there really enough to support this?
/cevah
Well, Superior summoning gets more bodies on the field, so it has a very high place.
Evolved summoned monster is kind of useless though. Besides the restriction to 1 pt evos, it only applies to one of the creatures you summon. Rarely very helpful.
But lets look at the alignment ones: I think summon neutral monster looks interesting. Mostly because it turns the 'bleh' animal options into something nice and beefy with DR/adamantine (and their low CR for their hit dice works in their favor. The good version is a lot less useful (since you are often fighting creatures that can get through DR/evil anyway).
And depending on the AP, the restriction to smite only CE, LE, LG, CG might not be too bad. If the campaign is focused on killing demons and the like, it will get just as much use out of the smite as a 'summon good monster', and its DR still applies.
Imagine a Rok flying in with smite on those fools with its new DR/10 adamantine and +16 to damage on every hit. Imagine throwing out 1d4+2 creatures like that out.
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Standard action summoning is vital, so Sacred first. Summon Good adds a lot of utility & common sense suggests that if the feat gives Diehard then the summoned monsters don't disappear at 0 HP, & if you accept that then it makes low level summons a lot better & is still useful later on.Looking at the lists, there don't seem to be many low level (SM I, SM II, SM III) entries. Are there really enough to support this?
/cevah
dont think there are any to sacred summons on till 5th level, but they do still get diehard. that helps alot to keep them around
Evolved summoned monster is kind of useless though. Besides the restriction to 1 pt evos, it only applies to one of the creatures you summon. Rarely very helpful.
I think the following evolutions could be good:
Bleed (Ex): extra 1d6 that continues after summons diesGills (Ex): add versatility so a summons
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): +2 AC to help summons survive
Reach (Ex): many summons must enter space to attack, this helps
Resistance (Ex): resist 10 to one element
Scent (Ex): track where invisible creatures are
But lets look at the alignment ones: I think summon neutral monster looks interesting. Mostly because it turns the 'bleh' animal options into something nice and beefy with DR/adamantine (and their low CR for their hit dice works in their favor. The good version is a lot less useful (since you are often fighting creatures that can get through DR/evil anyway).
You need a summons of 5HD or greater to get DR/adamantine. Any in SM I, SM II, or SM III?
/cevah
dont think there are any to sacred summons on till 5th level, but they do still get diehard. that helps alot to keep them aroundStandard action summoning is vital, so Sacred first. Summon Good adds a lot of utility & common sense suggests that if the feat gives Diehard then the summoned monsters don't disappear at 0 HP, & if you accept that then it makes low level summons a lot better & is still useful later on.Looking at the lists, there don't seem to be many low level (SM I, SM II, SM III) entries. Are there really enough to support this?
/cevah
I think that would put Ferocious Summons out ahead, as Diehard and Ferocity are about equal. Ferocious Summons applies to all creatures rather than some.
/cevah
But lets look at the alignment ones: I think summon neutral monster looks interesting. Mostly because it turns the 'bleh' animal options into something nice and beefy with DR/adamantine (and their low CR for their hit dice works in their favor. The good version is a lot less useful (since you are often fighting creatures that can get through DR/evil anyway).You need a summons of 5HD or greater to get DR/adamantine. Any in SM I, SM II, or SM III?
/cevah
Hmmmm....nope, close, but no cigar.
Most of the animals on SM IV, however, do have around 5HD. That becomes an option at level 7, which just so happens to be a level where you can take another feat.
Just saying- if you pick a lot of the stuff like superior summons and sacred summons, and you just happened to be CN, N, or LN....well...good things might come about. That looks like a good set up for a cleric of Abadar (who equally uses archons and devils).
EDIT- oh, this is an NPC. Missed that bit. Yeah, leveling might not be an option for him (depending on how the campaign goes). (personal side note- your summon feats don't affect wands and scrolls, right? I'd rather not get into this train of thought if it doesn't go anywhere)
Standard action summoning is vital, so Sacred first. Summon Good adds a lot of utility & common sense suggests that if the feat gives Diehard then the summoned monsters don't disappear at 0 HP, & if you accept that then it makes low level summons a lot better & is still useful later on.Looking at the lists, there don't seem to be many low level (SM I, SM II, SM III) entries. Are there really enough to support this?
/cevah
The perfect summons a round later is generally worse than any summons right now. Lantern archons aren't terrible either.
I admit 1d4+1 celestial eagles with Diehard are better, but you've got to survive a full round obviously casting a spell (& so probably a top priority target), not having moved the round you started, & not failing any resulting concentration checks.
Hmmmm....nope, close, but no cigar.
Most of the animals on SM IV, however, do have around 5HD. That becomes an option at level 7, which just so happens to be a level where you can take another feat.
Just saying- if you pick a lot of the stuff like superior summons and sacred summons, and you just happened to be CN, N, or LN....well...good things might come about.
Unfortunately, SM IV would be mid level, and out of each for my NPC.
What about SMM Summon Minor Monster? Does it bring anything to the table?
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 1d3 summoned creatures
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell functions as summon monster I, except you can summon 1d3 Tiny or smaller animals, such as bats, lizards, monkeys, rats, ravens, toads, or weasels. The summoned animals must all be the same type of creature. As with animals summoned with summon monster I, you may apply one alignment-appropriate template to these animals.
/cevah
The perfect summons a round later is generally worse than any summons right now. Lantern archons aren't terrible either.
Very true.
I admit 1d4+1 celestial eagles with Diehard are better, but you've got to survive a full round obviously casting a spell (& so probably a top priority target), not having moved the round you started, & not failing any resulting concentration checks.
What ones are available?
/cevah
(personal side note- your summon feats don't affect wands and scrolls, right? I'd rather not get into this train of thought if it doesn't go anywhere)
So far as I know, there is only an arcane discovery or archetype that has this, so I would not assume this worked.
/cevah
Any comment on Harrowed Summoning or the evolutions I listed?
/cevah
Harrowed gives an enhancement bonus to ability scores, as does Augment. If you have the latter the former is largely redundant. I guess you could just get Harrowed Summoning (tho' note the prereq) but Augment is normally better.
w.r.t. the evolutions you noted - Bleed may be worth a feat but isn't worth more than the other summoning feats, Gills is pointless (summons can't drown within their normal duration, and many are aquatic), INA is not worth a feat, Reach may sometimes be worth it, Resistance is not often going to be useful but is a handy option, and summons likely won't have time to use Scent.
The Lantern Archon or possibly the Silvanshee Agathion are the only good-aligned sacred summons options at this level.
Any comment on Harrowed Summoning or the evolutions I listed?
/cevah
Harrowed is horrible. It can be minorly helpful when it works, but in all cases, it creates excessive, random book keeping. Even if it were always awesome, I'd still avoid it because you have to mod the summoned creature on the fly, rather than having one pre-prepared (or, I guess, you could just pre-prepare, what, 36 times as many versions? No, I think it's even more...)
The Evolutions you listed are not worth a feat. Reach is ok. But remember, with SMIII, if you're not throwing Lantern Archons out, you're doing it wrong. The Aurochs and a few others are dangerous, but two touch attacks AND DR 10/might as well be unbeatable at level 5 is too good not to use. You won't even need Diehard because I can't think of any way other than spells or an Anti-Paladin to take out a Lantern Archon played smartly at level 5. Higher levels gives you Clustered Shot to get through the DR, but nobody has a Holy Weapon this early, nor can anyone even realistically melee it when it flies 30' above the ground with perfect maneuverability, and ranged attacks can't realistically break 10 per shot reliably yet.
Sacred Summons and throw Lantern Archons out until the NPC runs out of 3rd level slots.
The best 2nd level summon, if you must go there, is probably a small Earth Elemental. Earth Gliding makes them really hard to fight effectively. If you go with the Evil feat, Pugwumpi's are horrible to fight (though not especially dangerous on their own).
The best 1st level summon, is, well they're all awful, but it's probably the Eagle. Seriously, you're significantly better off with the Mount spell if you want a level 1 summon.
Due to the AP, the NPC probably will not be LG, but more likely CG. This means Sacred Summons is essentially useless. :-(
Next question: Summon Good Monster vs. Ferocious Summons: Does the extend list give me something worth not having Diehard on the main list?
/cevah
Due to the AP, the NPC probably will not be LG, but more likely CG. This means Sacred Summons is essentially useless. :-(
Next question: Summon Good Monster vs. Ferocious Summons: Does the extend list give me something worth not having Diehard on the main list?
/cevah
Not much on that low level list. Or at least, not anything that could benefit from being summoned alone.
Since a lot of the 'optimizer's choice' options get this benefit either way... yeah, maybe go with ferocious.
Grigs get a couple of SLA's you can call upon, eagles & lantern archons are on the SGM list. That's enough, I'd go with SGM.
At level 5 i Think Augment Summoning is the Best choice. +2 to hit and Dam is a Big deal at low to middel levels, and so is the extra hit points.
As do I. That is why I mentioned it in the OP as assumed. :-)
What is the next best feat?
I am also thinking of Lantern Archon w/Bleed. Spread the love against mooks.
/cevah
I would say that if you can't get a way to get std action summoning, you need to seriously consider if summoning is the route you want to go. One round casting time is brutally horrible. There are currently three ways AFAIK: Sacred Summons, Summon Evil Monster and Academae Graduate.
As do I. That is why I mentioned it in the OP as assumed. :-)
What is the next best feat?
I am also thinking of Lantern Archon w/Bleed. Spread the love against mooks.
/cevah
He he embarasing. What is the purpose of the NPC? If it plans to do other things than summon monsters pehaps the feat can go to some other thing like heavy armor prof to help survive the full round cast:)
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Unfortunately, SM IV would be mid level, and out of each for my NPC.What about SMM Summon Minor Monster? Does it bring anything to the table?
** spoiler omitted **
/cevah
If you're a CG cleric Lantern Archons are off the table due to alignment. Sorry, didn't notice it earlier.
What is the purpose of the NPC? If it plans to do other things than summon monsters pehaps the feat can go to some other thing like heavy armor prof to help survive the full round cast:)
Earlier, I posted the thread Wanted Ships Cleric. Basically ship support in the Skulls & Shackles AP, with Craft Wand.
I would say that if you can't get a way to get std action summoning, you need to seriously consider if summoning is the route you want to go. One round casting time is brutally horrible. There are currently three ways AFAIK: Sacred Summons, Summon Evil Monster and Academae Graduate.
I don't see full round casting quite as big an issue due to being on a ship most of the time. Plenty of cover, and summons are more to help deal with boarders [either side]. Still, if you have a suggestion for a better path for this NPC, I'll be glad to hear it.
If you're a CG cleric Lantern Archons are off the table due to alignment. Sorry, didn't notice it earlier.
Me neither. Have to check with the GM if I can swing NG. :-)
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All: Keep the discussion going.
/cevah
If this is for a ship, you might be best off with a Crocodile. Grab the bad guy and drag them into the ocean, deathrolling the whole time.
Reach spell is good for ship combat since it Will allow you to summon stuff at longer range. Or pehaps just get a wand since he is level 5.
Could folks suggest non-combat uses for summons? My imagination is good but more towards how to get from here to there rather than where to go.
/cevah
I can imagine that you can send in a load of earth or air elements to steal an object using their special movement speeds (flying and burrowing). Any sort of teleporting outsider has the same potential.
It can be a bit hard to use summons for noncombat uses with the normal spell. Summoners get the luxury to use them for that, since their duration is minutes/level via the SLA. With that, you can easily use summons to scout (the suggested elementals are, again, extremely useful for the same reasons.)
Summons don't get teleportation abilities and can't be summoned into environments which can't support them - you can order your celestial eagles to jump in a lake, but you can't summon fiendish squid onto a dry dungeon floor.
Out of combat? 1 round/level limits that a lot. You can have them open possibly trapped doors, lantern archons can use continual flame or aid, flying monsters can get a rope somewhere for you to climb up, and if you have SGM there are several handy spell like or supernatural abilities on the SM III options.
I thought the prohibition was against summoned creatures summoning others. I think I saw lantern archons teleporting. If they cannot teleport, can you link the reference?
/cevah
Sure. second paragraph here. Which also disallows continual flame now I look at it again.
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I know I am a bit late for this discussion but I am fairly new to pathfinder. I have a level 2 human arcanist (occultist archetype) which means I can't take sacred summons and will always be taking a round to summon. I am trying to work out what to take at level 3: evolved, superior, neutral or good.
I see that some people don't appreciate Sunmon Evolved Monster but if I compare a giant ant with claws to an extra eagle, the improvement gives 10-16 more damage per round compared to 9-18 from an extra eagle. Also I get the opportunity to be versatile, potentially making its attacks magical or giving it resistance instead of claws for those creatures that are awkward.
I don't understand the attraction of the alignment summons. Why are they that much better than the standard creatures? Why do I need to be summoning lantern archons at level 3?
Please remember that I am more of a generalist than standard summoner s.