DiceBagChick's page

I dont entirely appreciate words being put in my mouth that I never said. I never said I wanted to dick or screw over the player or anything else that has been said recently here.

With that, I am going to take my leave from this thread. Thank you all who gave alternatives to my original request! I appreciate that!

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Well, sorry. I dont really post here. I think this is only my second thread i've ever posted here about. I didnt know where else to ask for help.

DiceBagChick wrote:

I wish to have a spell-like ability to cast the spell "permanency" at will, and without any cost, and without any unintended consequences, and without the chance of failure, And have no limit to the number of times I can cast it, and have no limit on how often i can cast it.and without level requirement.

"I wish for an at-will CL 18th spell-like ability of permanency."

That's the I'm-not-trying-really-hard-to-keep-my-DM-from-screwing-me version.

Seriously.

Spell-like abilities don't have material costs.

At-will means an unlimited number of times unless there's additional mitigating text. "You can cast sleep on yourself at will until you hit puberty, when this ability ceases to function."

Without unintended consequences is literally the player saying "please don't screw me, I'm telling you what I'm wishing for, and either grant it or bloody tell me I can't have it, but I don't want this wish if it means every time I use it I turn into a frog."

That's it. From there, it's all repeating the same things over and over.

"Don't screw me."
"Don't screw me."
"Don't screw me."
"Don't screw me."

I've read the thread, and while there's some bumpy moments here and there, I'm sorry, but the thread boils down to "how can I screw my player?"

It's up to the DM to decide if an at-will CL 18th permanency SLA (yes, the wish can be broken down to 30 characters including spaces) is reasonable or not. But my answer to the thread is "don't".

One more thing.

For those folks saying "you can't wish for game mechanics", I cry foul. We use game rules to describe how things work at the table. The PC himself might be saying the words "I wish whenever I wanted to, I could do that thing that the most powerful of wizards can do, where they can make some spells last forever." Oh wait. What's a "wizard"? Right. Back to screw the player. The player using game terms is to your benefit, so you know what the expectations are.

If you truly believe that my thread is how to completely screw over my player, then you havent read anything i've posted. I want to pare down his request while still giving him some of his wish.

mess with != screw over.

DiceBagChick wrote:

Who knows, maybe I'll make him roll for which one happens and don't tell him til its rolled, maybe 4 potential options and make him roll a d4 and let the dice decide his fate.

It's your game, so run it how you want, but I think a magic system where you exactly specify what you want but get random results sets a frightening precedent - it would bother me as a player. I would wonder if the next time I cast Fireball, would I get a Furball instead?

That's excessive, I know, but it's a weird precedent.

Perhaps more specifically, my real fear would be "Wow, that wish sucked, I got a totally random result. I never want a wish again!"

In other words, there's no lesson, there's just unpredictability.

I would much, much, much prefer (as a player) to be able to say "Well, that sucked, didn't get what I hoped for but I sure learned my lesson; next time I'll try to stay within the boundaries of a Wish or, if not, at least I can predict the kind of consequence I might get".

no, that's not what i meant, i meant that the d4 would decide his fate from a few options listed in this thread. There are several ways I can handle his wish that I particularly like in this thread, perhaps a random roll will determine which we go with. I'll likely either let the player decide or see if he wants to let the dice decide.

As of right now, the plan is to give him 2 or 3 options, none being directly the exact wish that he requested. 1 option being the quest-to-receive the wish option, that way he gets what he wants but not NOW. It will take time to get to it and probably at least a couple more levels worth of time.

Other options will be presented as well, i particularly like the aging one if I'm being mean. ;) I'll let him choose which one he likes. Each will have somewhat of a setback from his original wish since it is overpowered as written. Who knows, maybe I'll make him roll for which one happens and don't tell him til its rolled, maybe 4 potential options and make him roll a d4 and let the dice decide his fate.

I always preferred the Harrow Deck (mostly because it's an actual full deck of cards...), so that's the one I usually think of.

The Winged Serpent wrote:

The character is granted a single wish. This wish functions similarly to the spell wish when it comes to affecting rules and statistics, but can also change reality in ways outside the bounds of the spell's effects—such as rerouting a river or ending a war. The GM decides what the wish can and cannot accomplish.

That's actually the one we used was the harrowed deck. I had forgotten which we actually used since I looked at a few different ones. I wanted to mix it up from what the players were used to with D&D.

DiceBagChick wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I'd meet him in the middle. "It's just a single Wish, it lacks the power to give you such an ability at will. You have three free permanencies, use them wisely."

I really like this. I feel like its a bit too powerful for a 5th level character, but i dig this. I'm compiling all the suggestions and will see what works without completely screwing over his wish.

If it's too powerful for a 5th level character then you probably shouldn't have whipped out the Deck of Many Things on a 5th level group. Sounds like you wanted all the cool punishment of a DoMT without the chance of honoring all the cool benefits of a DoMT. Pretty crappy DM play there....

Incorrect. As I stated earlier, I removed several of the horrible deck cards. As his wish is currently written, that's way too OP for his level and the wish itself.

Though one option I am toying with the idea of giving him his full wish and tying it to his backstory that we will eventually get to fulfilling. Perhaps if he completes his family quest, that will result in an item that lets him do his SLA Permanency. That way he doesnt have it NOW, but he will get it eventually. Perhaps his quest results in his enlightenment allowing that ability.

If my player reads this, let me know what you think about this alternative since we may head to completing your side quest sooner than later.

DiceBagChick wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Next time if you don't want people to "jump to conclusions" don't say "How do I mess with this" and more "How do I come up with an alternate version of this" and give all the info at once instead of trickling it out a little at a time.

Guess that's my bad, i didnt figure a few people for being jerkish to me for something that's fairly common in gaming (GMs messing with wish to some extent), so i felt the need to constantly clarify things that were said or I didnt think needed to be said.

My thanks to those who did give reasonable alternatives though.

DiceBagChick, your question was fine as written.

People should not expect that all the information has been handed out.

You asked a reasonable question and instead of answering the question as it was asked some people posted responses that were not in line with the question and decided to place labels based on incomplete information.

Rather than accepting that different people have different gaming styles some people like to jump to the idea that if you do X then you must be a bad GM without understanding that the group dynamics may be different than what they would normally experience.

Thank you! I thought that by paring down my question to just the bare bones would have been more appreciated than a tl;dr version, but I guess that went over some people's heads.

Personally I hate the deck of many things. However you took out many of the reasons to hate it, but didn't balance that with equal level rewards being taken out as well.

Which is to say you too out death but left in wish for example.

That's a lesson for next time, but I think I like the 3 times only permanent ability. I doubt a player would complain about unrestrained cost free level free uses 3 times.

And don't worry about the posters whining you didn't give enough info as a way to backtrack on being jerks to you. Even if the cards had been left in there, they weren't drawn and weren't part of the original question. Their existence is irrelevant because it could have been nothing but a single wish and 51 death cards... the wish was drawn that's all that matters.

That is very true. I did leave in quite a large number of the good effects. But, I did it in a very specific reasoning to let my players have some good in the game and feel like they were getting something special. I've always liked when GMs in the past have done things to benefit players extraordinarily.

I think Calth made a good point here - the player already risked a lot when drawing a card and deserves a reward. If the wished reward is too big, the question is 'What does the player want to achieve?'. I'd guess he wants a flexible tool because he doesn't really know yet what exactly to do with permanency.

Three free permancies (as kyrt-ryder said) is already a good compromise. Alternatively give him one permanency per day - it's also a challenge to spend this one wisely. It should be ok to provide it without gold cost, failure and level requirement. Let's see what the player comes up with...

In the worst case, even permanent spells can be dispelled. But as a GM, I wouldn't overdo that...

Agreed. I like the 1x per day as well as a compromise. I'll let the player decide though since its his wish.

Next time if you don't want people to "jump to conclusions" don't say "How do I mess with this" and more "How do I come up with an alternate version of this" and give all the info at once instead of trickling it out a little at a time.

Guess that's my bad, i didnt figure a few people for being jerkish to me for something that's fairly common in gaming (GMs messing with wish to some extent), so i felt the need to constantly clarify things that were said or I didnt think needed to be said.

My thanks to those who did give reasonable alternatives though.

-You introduced the Deck of Many Things (a neat artifact with a reputation for ruining gaming groups because of the especially bad effects).

-The player manages to avoid getting permanently destroyed so hard a deity can't even bring him back, losing everything he owns permanently, having to fight the Grim reaper, having an ally turn against him, or some other such thing and pulls the card that gives him a Wish.

Actually, I was quite generous in the deck and took out many of the absolutely horrible point of no return cards, since I introduced it early on for fun. We used an alternate form of the deck. I think the worst that happened to the players was this same player who now turns into a random animal when he lies.

Just for the clarification for everyone involved, the player has a link to this thread so he can read the responses, I even told him I was posting it here. We were planning on coming up with a reasonable way to screw with it TOGETHER, but as usual people jump to conclusions. He knew fully well that GMs screw with the request to some extent.

For the record, I'm a she, not a he - as i was referred to earlier in the thread.

edit to add: as I stated earlier, I plan on compiling a list of reasonable alternatives. Next session I will present him with the alternatives to the request and let him decide which one he'd rather have. As it stands right now, I do not feel comfortable with the way its written. I'd rather let him have a similar or alternate version of his wish than to let it poof in smoke.

Why don't you try to be creative?

You know what that means?

DON'T MESS WITH THE F+@@ING WISH

Why is it every GM feels like they need to dick around every time Wish comes into play? You brought the Deck of Many Things into the game, man up and accept the potential consequences of that decision instead of pulling the same tired, boring power tripping b%%+*$!# every GM since the dawn of time has thought was funny for some unfathomable reason.

He asked for a spell at-will. A spell with a very limited set of potential applications. Let him have what he wants for christ's sake.

Well aren't you a peach? Who said I was on a power trip? It's called having FUN with players. If you arent there to have fun and only min max, what's the point?

edit to add: The truth of the matter is, the way the wish was given to me is too over powered for the way wish is written. The more you add to it, the more it has the capability to go wrong. Your rudeness to me was un-necessary nor do you know the dynamic of my group. This is a group of people who have fun, so me messing with his wish slightly is not being a tyrant, it's having fun as a first time DM after being a player for over 20 years.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I really appreciate it. As for the comments as to why i'd want to mess with the wish, well that's part of the fun of being a DM with people you have a fun time playing alongside.

FroggyCreations wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I'd meet him in the middle. "It's just a single Wish, it lacks the power to give you such an ability at will. You have three free permanencies, use them wisely."

I really like this. I feel like its a bit too powerful for a 5th level character, but i dig this. I'm compiling all the suggestions and will see what works without completely screwing over his wish.

There is literally no way a full wish spell can be used that isn't too powerful for a 5th level character, sorry

I get your point, but I disagree. Is it powerful? Yes, but that's part of the fun of playing in our group. I like characters to feel like they are huge parts of a puzzle and if that means letting them have something powerful in return, so be it. I've been in far too many groups where you get nothing magical ever and its just so dull and boring. That's why I'm looking to downgrade his request into something a bit more reasonable but yet within his request.

I'd meet him in the middle. "It's just a single Wish, it lacks the power to give you such an ability at will. You have three free permanencies, use them wisely."

I really like this. I feel like its a bit too powerful for a 5th level character, but i dig this. I'm compiling all the suggestions and will see what works without completely screwing over his wish.

answer "No"

They're asking for a 5th level spell at will. When Wish is limited to producing one instance of a 6th level spell that isn't on your spell list, the relative power levels here aren't even close. I assume they drew the moon card, which comes with a certain number of wishes depending on the number of he card. I'd say one wish to cast permanency, another wish to make it free. Wish can't produce any of the other effects they ask for. Just for asking though you might want to slap them with a Permanenced ghost sound or dancing lights, controlled by you of course, to annoy them with as they've annoyed you with this request.

We actually didnt use official deck of many things, we used a 3rd party one that i liked better. We're playing semi-off book. Sorry I probably should have specified that :)

Drew from the deck of many things, player drew the card with a wish. He cashed in his wish request tonight with the following wish, how can I mess with it?

I wish to have a spell-like ability to cast the spell "permanency" at
will, and without any cost, and without any unintended consequences,
and without the chance of failure, And have no limit to the number of
times I can cast it, and have no limit on how often i can cast it.and
without level requirement.

It depends,

If he is playing any type of Summoner beside a Synthesist, they are separate.

A Synthesist Summoner (archetype of the regular Summoner) wears his Eidolon like Power Armor.

You are correct, his Eidolon is ineligible for the flight evolution until 5th level.

Ah yes that's right, he did say he was a synthesis summoner. Thanks :)

I am a newbie DM that just started a Pathfinder group. Most of us are newbies to Pathfinder except one guy.
Now, I've not heard/seen of Summoners until last night with an eilodon. Is the Eilodon a separate space or do they share the space? He's claiming they share the space as if they are 1 person with the shimmering aura of the eilodon around him.

He also is taking his evolution for flight, which, if i'm reading the rules correctly is not available to his eidolon until 5th level..