For an upcoming Jade Regent campaign I was looking at an archer type character, with a slight mounted flair (but not too much, as I understand mounts won't be viable for large chunks of the action). I figured I'd use Hero Lab to throw together the four likely candidates - fighter/archer, zen archer monk, archery ranger, and cavalier - and just spec them to level 11, a place I'd expect we'd spend a lot of time. I was pleasantly surprised at how close they come out.
20 point buy, no crazy min/maxing like dumping stats or being an archer to the exclusion of being able to do anything else. Core and APG allowed only, our group has decided not to use the Ultimates.
Damage output (with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot/Multishot and Power Attack going):
cavalier
- bow +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2 1d8+11
- sword +12/+7/+2 2d6+17 (4/day +11 dmg from challenge)
- + horse and other cav stuff
fighter
- bow +15(x2)/+15/+10/+5 1d8+15
- sword +13/+8/+3 2d6+19
ranger
- bow +11(x2)/+11/+6/+1 1d8+11 (up to +6/+6 from favored enemy, gravity bow for 2d6+11 dmg)
- sword +13/+8/+3 2d6+17
- + wolf, spells
zen monk
- bow +13/+13/+8/+8/+2 1d8+13 (perfect strike, ki for extra attacks or 1d10+13 dmg)
- unarmed +9/+4 1d10+9
- + ki powerz
Seems like though there's damage output variation, it's usually a good tradeoff of "less damage, but animal companion" or whatnot. My main areas of concern are how bad the zen monk is in hand to hand and how feat starved the cavalier is with pretty weak other powers (spend standard actions to give weak bonuses and have some awful tactical feats? really?). Am I overlooking anything major?
The builds are not all geared up, on the theory that gearing will give approximately equal benefits across the board.
HERO KAIJUTSU CR 10
Male Human (Tian) Cavalier 11
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 79 (11d10+11)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 Greatsword +12/+7/+2 (2d6+17/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +12/+12/+7/+2 (1d8+11/20/x3)
Special Attacks Cavalier's Charge, Challenge +11/+3 (4/day), Mighty Charge
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 26
Feats Coordinated Maneuvers, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Duck and Cover, Manyshot, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics -3, Bluff +4, Climb +2, Diplomacy +13, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +4, Perception +13, Ride +10, Sense Motive +10, Stealth -3, Survival +13, Swim +2 Modifiers +6 Ride while riding your bonded mount., Dragon's Skills
Languages Common, Tien
SQ Aid Allies +4 (Ex), Animal Companion Link (Ex), Banner +5/+4 (Ex), Expert Trainer +5 (Ex), Greater Tactician (Coordinated Maneuvers or Duck and Cover) 8r (3/day) (Ex), Strategy (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Greatsword, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3), Full Plate;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+6 Ride while riding your bonded mount. (Ex) Cancel your armor check penalty of -6 while riding your mount.
Aid Allies +4 (Ex) Aid Another grants +4
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Banner +5/+4 (Ex) Allies who can see your banner gain +5 save vs. fear & +4 to hit while charging.
Cavalier's Charge (Ex) Mounted charge grants +4 to hit and -0 AC rather than +2/-2.
Challenge +11/+3 (4/day) (Ex) +11 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used
Coordinated Maneuvers +2 CMB if you are adjacent to an ally with this feat.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Dragon's Skills +5 (Ex) +5 to Survival checks for allies.
Duck and Cover Share the result of your Ref save die roll with an adjacent ally who also has this feat, but the borrower is knocked prone. Also gain a +2 cover bonus to AC vs. ranged attack if your ally is wielding a shield.
Expert Trainer +5 (Ex) +5 to train mounts, reduced training time option.
Greater Tactician (Coordinated Maneuvers or Duck and Cover) 8r (3/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your Tactical feats to your allies within 30'.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Mighty Charge (Ex) Double the threat range of your weapon while charging and execute a maneuver if you succeed.
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Strategy (Ex) Grant varying bonuses to allies within 30'
HIRO KAIJUTSU CR 10
Male Human (Tian) Fighter (Archer) 11
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 87 (11d10+11)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 Greatsword +13/+8/+3 (2d6+19/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +15/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+15/19-20/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 26
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Manyshot, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -2, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +14, Perception +3, Ride +11, Stealth -3, Survival +14, Swim -2
Languages Common, Tien
SQ Safe Shot (Ex), Trick Shot: Bull Rush, Trick Shot: Disarm, Trick Shot: Trip
Combat Gear +2 Greatsword, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3), Full Plate;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Safe Shot (Ex) You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with your Archetype's focused weapon (Bows or Crossbows).
Trick Shot: Bull Rush Bull Rush with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Trick Shot: Disarm Disarm with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Trick Shot: Trip Trip with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
HARO KAIJUTSU CR 10
Male Human (Tian) Ranger 11
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +16
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 87 (11d10+11)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Evasion
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 Greatsword +13/+8/+3 (2d6+17/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +11/+11/+6/+1 (1d8+11/20/x3)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 8, 10 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
3 (1/day) Magic Fang, Greater (DC 15)
2 (2/day) Protection from Energy (DC 14), Arrow Eruption
1 (3/day) Entangle (DC 13), Endure Elements (DC 13), Gravity Bow (DC 13)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 27
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Endurance, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics -2, Climb +9, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Handle Animal +9, Heal +11, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (Nature) +5, Perception +16, Ride +12, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +7, Survival +16, Swim +9
Languages Common, Tien
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Outsiders (Evil) (+6 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex), Quarry, Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Swift Tracker (Ex), Terrains: Cold (+4 bonus) (Ex), Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex), Track +5, Wild Empathy +11 (Ex), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Greatsword, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3), Breastplate;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Animals.
Enemies: Outsiders (Evil) (+6 bonus) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Outsiders (Evil).
Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Undead.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore certain AC / concealment bonuses.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Quarry +2 to hit and other bonuses against your designated quarry.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Terrains: Cold (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Cold.
Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Forest.
Track +5 +5 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +11 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Note: HL doesn't do flurries right, I think my summary line above is accurate however
HORO KAIJUTSU CR 10
Male Human (Tian) Monk (Zen Archer) 11
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +18
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 16. . (+2 Dex)
hp 60 (11d8)
Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +11
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OFFENSE
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Spd 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +9/+4 (1d10+9/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +12/+7 (1d8+13/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +9/+9/+4/+4/-1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic, Trick Shot, Zen Archery
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STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +11; CMD 29
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Extra Ki, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Mounted Combat, Perfect Strike (3d20) (11/day), Point Blank Master: Longbow, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Precise Shot, Shot On The Run, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics +16, Perception +18, Ride +16, Sense Motive +18, Stealth +16
Languages Common, Tien
SQ AC Bonus +6, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+11) (Ex), Ki Archery (Su), Ki Arrows (Su), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Reflexive Shot (Ex), Slow Fall 50' (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Wholeness of Body (11 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +3);
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+11) (Ex) +11 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore certain AC / concealment bonuses.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) At 10th level, a monk's unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) At 4th level, ki strike allows a monk's unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Perfect Strike (3d20) (11/day) Roll 3d20 for an attack with a Monk weapon and use the higher as your attack roll, the next as your critical confirmation.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Reflexive Shot (Ex) Make AoO with bow.
Shot On The Run When attacking with a ranged weapon, you can move - attack - move.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Trick Shot (Su) 1-3 Ki points: ignore varying amounts of cover or concealment.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (11 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.
bah, post got eaten.
You have the stats for the monk twice and are missing the ranger.
For pure damage you can't beat the fighter archer but you have better survivability as the zen archer. Each has its strengths and tradeoff. If you go with one of the dex based classes you might consider a 1 level dip in trapper ranger for trapfinding and be the party trapmonkey(although I'd avoid it as a full archetype since the rest of it sucks).
To bad you can't use ultmates. This type of build is realy where the Samurai alt class can realy shine.
How would a samurai build differ substantially from the cavalier build above archery wise?
bah, post got eaten.
You have the stats for the monk twice and are missing the ranger.
For pure damage you can't beat the fighter archer but you have better survivability as the zen archer. Each has its strengths and tradeoff. If you go with one of the dex based classes you might consider a 1 level dip in trapper ranger for trapfinding and be the party trapmonkey(although I'd avoid it as a full archetype since the rest of it sucks).
Fixed the stats, thanks for posting that during the edit window! :-)
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To bad you can't use ultmates. This type of build is realy where the Samurai alt class can realy shine.How would a samurai build differ substantially from the cavalier build above archery wise?
Not much at all. Samurai just get a few ability's that make them better for mounted archery.
Mounted Archer
At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted.
Weapon Expertise
At 3rd level, a samurai gains an unparalleled expertise with his chosen weapons. At 3rd level, the samurai selects either the katana, longbow, naginata, or wakizashi.
We finished Kingmaker back in June and we had a ranger archer in the party. He usually out damaged the barbarian and there were a few times near the end when his dice got hot and he dealt well over 300 points of damage in a round. If you go Ranger keep an eye on the Instant Enemy spell - BBEGs will feel the pain.
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20 point buy, no crazy min/maxing like dumping stats or being an archer to the exclusion of being able to do anything else. Core and APG allowed only, our group has decided not to use the Ultimates.
Well, that means no broken Sohei archer with seven attacks....which is a good thing.
If you really want to blow things away without UC, make a switch-hitter "bowbarian":
STR:14, DEX+18, CON:12, INT:10, WIS:12, CHA:12
Traits: Reactionary (+2 INIT), Dangerously Curious (+1 UMD/class skill)
01 barb1 (Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brute), Quickdraw, Extra Rage
02 figh1 [Weapon Master:Longbow], Point Blank Shot
03 figh2 [Weapon Guard +1], Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus:Longbow
04 figh3 DEX>20, [Weapon Training +1]
05 figh4 Weapon Specialization:Longbow, Power Attack
06 barb2 [Savage Grapple(BP)][Rage Power:Reckless Abandon +1]
07 barb3 Pit Fighter(BP), Manyshot
08 barb4 DEX>21, [Reckless Abandon +2][Rage Power:Good For What Ails You]
09 figh5 [Reliable Strike(WM)], Two Weapon Fighting
10 figh6 [Weapon Guard +2(WM)], Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 figh7 [Weapon Training +2(WM)], FEAT
12 figh8 DEX>22, FEAT
Tactics: 1) Rapid Shot opponents not in melee; TWF nearby opponents; charge/greatsword/Power Attack opponents in melee who are not close enough to 5' toward.
Trick: buy a Circlet of Persuasion and keep bumping Use Magic Device. Don't forget to buy Dueling Gloves.
At and around level 11 is when Fighter 1/Wizard (Transmuter) 5/Eldritch Knight 5 starts to get beastly.
You'd be a one trick pony in that damage would almost always come from archery, but you'd be less of a one trick pony in that you're a good caster to go along with doing damage.
If you start with 13 Int (or 14 depending on preference), as long as you have a headband of Int you'll be able to get access to the spells you need. Plus, if you want to do some mounted stuff you could use the Mount spell and be able to have a horse whenever you wanted (and you can always take the Ride skill...or even craft the Ride skill into a Headband of Int).
Feats are usually something like:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Scribe Scroll, Rapid Shot, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item (or weapons and armor), Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master
Benefits party with a crafting skill, as well as possibly having better gear himself...you can also arcane bond with an object and craft it for half price, so item-wise he might be a little ahead (not to mention Greater Magic Weapon allowing you to do some trickeration on your bow).
Anyhow, just thought I'd throw out an option that it doesn't look like has been discussed yet. Lemme know if you want more details as I've played this exact character many times (and there's a lot of sneaky things he can do to be awesome).
We finished Kingmaker back in June and we had a ranger archer in the party. He usually out damaged the barbarian and there were a few times near the end when his dice got hot and he dealt well over 300 points of damage in a round. If you go Ranger keep an eye on the Instant Enemy spell - BBEGs will feel the pain.
I just realized this was a close range spell. I would be sure to have a good frontline if I plan to use it all the time.
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20 point buy, no crazy min/maxing like dumping stats or being an archer to the exclusion of being able to do anything else. Core and APG allowed only, our group has decided not to use the Ultimates.
Damage output (with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot/Multishot and Power Attack going):
if you dont like the idea of being an archer focused character that is syb par in other aspects, then i would suggest a pure fighter. you lack in skill points but you make up for them by choosing half elf or human, at least a little, and they can still have a full TWF build and iron will. which allows you to stay in the fight when going up against casters with wind wall, fogs/mists, darkness, and every things else i missed.
i honestly think, if you dont have access to the ultimate books,that adding in 2 levels of wizard/sorcerer to grab gravity bow, item creation feats, which allow you to make rings of charges per day gravity bow or constant effect if you really want to get stupid, then go arcane archer.
that will knock your damage through the roof
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Regarding the ranger (quoting Treantmonk)
"Why no precise shot? If you think about it, precise shot is worthless to the switch hitter, because when melee breaks out, he's in it, and you don't need it to qualify for Improved Precise Shot, because you are a Ranger...yay! Why no Point Blank Shot? Because he doesn't need it. Ranger's can avoid prerequisite feats for their combat style bonus feats. The only other archery feat you'll be taking is deadly aim, and Point Blank Shot isn't required for that either."
He also recommends Quick Draw to switch from bow to sword as a free action (drop the bow).
I'd give his guide a read makes some good points.
https://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddmg8sv6_5c4q9bhgp
The problem with Treantmonk's advice here is...then you'll be a ranger.
-- Nothing at all wrong with that, of course, if you want to be one. But they have the same annoyances as paladins: limited usage of class abilities, and frustration of seldom meeting opponents they're built to unload upon. Meanwhile, the bowbarian is dishing out 1d8+11+1d6 per shot by 7th or 8th.
(PBS is, numerically, a superior feat; it's just that players are often prone to forget to apply it. Treantmonk is spot on about Precise Shot, however; it's an extravagance for a switch-hitter with Power Attack or TWF.)
Why has no one mentioned inquisitor? They get some great self buffs + judgement so you are always hitting for decent damage. I am playing an inquisitor right now with a 14 str 16 dex switch hitter and with a turn or two to buff I'm hitting at a +8 for 1d8+8 with a composite longbow. I can switch to melee if needed and still do good damage with a 2-hander and my 6+int skills and other class abilities ensure that I am relevant beyond being a walking hail of arrows.
I think people would probably have to see a build posted, and I don't know if anyone has done so. If I were not about to go to work I would try it.
Ranger hands down. Don't forget instant enemy and a well stacked Fe bonus with a holy bane bow. I'm just not sure why any other class is in the discussion. Just keep stacking pearls of power. No one touches that damage and you're close to the utility of the ek builds.
Seriously though, play whatever you enjoy, but if you enjoy beating everyone on damage then go ranger.
Ranger hands down. Don't forget instant enemy and a well stacked Fe bonus with a holy bane bow. I'm just not sure why any other class is in the discussion. Just keep stacking pearls of power. No one touches that damage and you're close to the utility of the ek builds.
Seriously though, play whatever you enjoy, but if you enjoy beating everyone on damage then go ranger.
If the point buy is high enough a paladin is on his heals. I think for the level 10 DPR threads the paladin archer outdid him.
If the point buy is high enough a paladin is on his heals. I think for the level 10 DPR threads the paladin archer outdid him.Ranger hands down. Don't forget instant enemy and a well stacked Fe bonus with a holy bane bow. I'm just not sure why any other class is in the discussion. Just keep stacking pearls of power. No one touches that damage and you're close to the utility of the ek builds.
Seriously though, play whatever you enjoy, but if you enjoy beating everyone on damage then go ranger.
Yes, if you're talking about the thread I read I think they didn't figure on the ranger having pearls of power level 3 or a 16 wisdom, I do. When you can turn any enemy you want into your +6 favored enemy, which also matches the creature type you put on your bow for Bane you can pretty much count on wrecking the damage races.
Improved precise shot and point blank master are still out of reach for the paladin, so he's shooting at a -4 more often than not due to cover as well as soaking AOOs for firing while threatened. Admittedly his lay on hands is probably more than enough to handle the incoming damage, but it's still happening.
I've just never seen another class perform as well at archery as the ranger. I love all the classes everyone is talking about, but I always see the performance gap when they try to be great archers.
You do realize the Zen Archer can use his bow in melee with no penalty right?
He gets Point Blank Master
Yes, of course, but there are likely times the bow isn't the thing to use, or he won't have it, or circumstances won't allow it, or he'll need to ki fist someone. Anyway, want to be able to switch hit some.
Paladins are supposed to make good archers? Have you considered one of those?
I guess it seems a little hard to believe, but a link to wherever this level 10 archer pally is would be interesting.
Regarding the ranger (quoting Treantmonk)"Why no precise shot? If you think about it, precise shot is worthless to the switch hitter, because when melee breaks out, he's in it, and you don't need it to qualify for Improved Precise Shot, because you are a Ranger...yay! Why no Point Blank Shot? Because he doesn't need it. Ranger's can avoid prerequisite feats for their combat style bonus feats. The only other archery feat you'll be taking is deadly aim, and Point Blank Shot isn't required for that either."
He also recommends Quick Draw to switch from bow to sword as a free action (drop the bow).
I'd give his guide a read makes some good points.
https://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddmg8sv6_5c4q9bhgp
I read Treantmonk's guide and my ranger is based on his switch hitter. I disagree with his assessment of precise shot - I plan to be shooting more than just "when there's melee" as there will be other more tanky meleers in the group and I expect action to be somewhat more spread out. Part of good arching, like good casting, is taking down that guy with only 10 hp left before he gets another attack. That's not always "the guy right in front of me" even if I AM in melee.
20 point buy, no crazy min/maxing like dumping stats or being an archer to the exclusion of being able to do anything else. Core and APG allowed only, our group has decided not to use the Ultimates.Well, that means no broken Sohei archer with seven attacks....which is a good thing.
If you really want to blow things away without UC, make a switch-hitter "bowbarian":
What is good about this guy arching though? You almost never get the full benefit of your damage unless you're carrying a whole sheaf of composite bows all with just the right Strength bonus on them. Seems like he's as good as any other level 12 class that bought a bow and just put a couple-three feats into it.
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If you really want to blow things away without UC, make a switch-hitter "bowbarian":What is good about this guy arching though? You almost never get the full benefit of your damage unless you're carrying a whole sheaf of composite bows all with just the right Strength bonus on them.
Well, you're gonna get your STR belt before buying more than a MW bow, so then your "main" bow is a STR+5 (because your raging STR is 20). You advance DEX, so it doesn't go up after that; and it's unlikely you'll exhaust your rounds of rage given a machine-gun role with a healthy dollop of switch-hitter on the side capable of motoring through combats.
So, really, you don't need any more bows than any other archer concept.
Damage break-down at, probably, 7th or so:
d8 ... arrow
d6 ... elemental +1 bonus
+1 ... enhancement bonus
+5 ... strength bonus (14+rage+belt)
+2 ... Weapon Specialization
+3 ... Weapon Training +1 plus Gloves of Dueling
= d8+d6+11
(Theoretically the bowbarian can lock that down by 5th, but scraping the cash for the Gloves will take longer unless gold rains out of the sky.)
19 dmg per arrow -- full-time versus all targets and before any other buffing or Deadly Aim -- is nothing to be sneering at at that level.
Attacks: Note that having four levels of barbarian with Reckless Abandon +2 is identical to straight-class ranger having Favored Enemy +2 versus everything (STR bonus from rage makes up the damage side). Add Weapon Training +2 plus Gloves, and it's equivalent to Favored Enemy +6 versus everything. No spellcasting required.
Got my GM's permission to go samurai. Comments on this samurai archer build? And question - challenge only works on melee damage not missile right? Hero Lab applies it to both, which would be great but unless I'm missing something that's a bug...
On the bow, with manyshot/rapid shot/deadly aim activated, he's +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2 for 1d8+14, and with power attack on is +12/+7/+2 for 1d10+17 with the glaive. Again, not bothering with magic item tricks here; items would add on top of course.
HIRO KAIJUTSU CR 10
Male Human (Tian) Samurai 11
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 76 (11d10)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Greater Resolve (6/day)
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 Glaive +12/+7/+2 (1d10+17/20/x3) and
. . +2 Katana +12/+7/+2 (1d8+12/18-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10/+5/+0 (1d3+10/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +12/+12/+7/+2 (1d8+14/20/x3)
Special Attacks Dragon's Challenge +11/+3 (4/day)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 28
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Traits Younger Sibling: Ameiko (Ex)
Skills Acrobatics -2, Bluff +5, Climb +3, Diplomacy +14, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +5, Perception +13, Ride +11, Sense Motive +13, Stealth -2, Survival +13, Swim +3 Modifiers +5 Ride while riding your bonded mount., Dragon's Skills
Languages Common, Tien
SQ Aid Allies +4 (Ex), Animal Companion Link (Ex), Banner +3/+2 (Ex), Honorable Stand (1/day) (Ex), Mounted Archer (Ex), Strategy (Ex), Weapon Expertise: Longbow (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Glaive, +2 Katana, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +4), +2 Tatami-do;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+5 Ride while riding your bonded mount. (Ex) Cancel your armor check penalty of -5 while riding your mount.
Aid Allies +4 (Ex) Aid Another grants +4
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Banner +3/+2 (Ex) Allies who can see your banner gain +3 save vs. fear & +2 to hit while charging.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Dragon's Challenge +11/+3 (4/day) (Ex) +11 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +3 to hit the target of your challenge.
Dragon's Skills +5 (Ex) +5 to Survival checks for allies.
Greater Resolve (6/day) (Ex) Starting at 1st level, the samurai gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and aff lictions. He can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every two samurai levels beyon
Honorable Stand (1/day) (Ex) At 11th level, a samurai can make an honorable stand, deciding to fight the target of his challenge to the bitter end, no matter the cost. He can make an honorable stand once per day at 11th level, plus one additional time per day at 16th level. Decl
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Mounted Archer (Ex) At 4th level, the samurai becomes skilled at firing ranged weapons while mounted. A samurai only takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls with ranged weapons while his mount takes a double move. This penalty increases to –4 while his mount is running.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Strategy (Ex) Grant varying bonuses to allies within 30'
Weapon Expertise: Longbow (Ex) You can quick draw the chosen weapon, and gain +2 to confirm critical hits.
Younger Sibling: Ameiko (Ex) +1 vs foes threatening sibling.
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Got my GM's permission to go samurai. Comments on this samurai archer build? And question - challenge only works on melee damage not missile right? Hero Lab applies it to both, which would be great but unless I'm missing something that's a bug...
On the bow, with manyshot/rapid shot/deadly aim activated, he's +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2 for 1d8+14, and with power attack on is +12/+7/+2 for 1d10+17 with the glaive. Again, not bothering with magic item tricks here; items would add on top of course.
** spoiler omitted **...
yeah no challenge on ranged attacks.