Try this:
The Marilith knows she is being watched and sends (non-evil) henchmen to intercept the holy men looking for the paladin. They kill the holy men and use magic to take their place, giving the paladin a different set of information that paladin does not know will further the goals of a dark god (that the Marilith made a deal with).
This information includes that the druid is actually of a NG alignment and is under magical compulsion, thus the paladin must protect him from the dwarf and help him get a break enchantment and atonement to return to the ways of good.
Should the paladin succeed to help the evil druid kill the dwarf and obtain the sword, he will lose his paladinhood and be unworthy to wield the good sword.
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Best (constructive) answer : depends on your players.
From what I understand, you had 6 players, and the paladin plus two other players left on their own side to not be with the psychopathic jerks.
If mindless-evil-murder-rape-torture-designer is their thing and it doesn't upsets you, well, go for it.
Best thing to do : reward the Good characters' players more than the evil ones, or TPK. Good is an harder, but ultimately more rewarding path to follow.
It sounds to me like the noobs are pretty much doomed if they go into the dwarven hold.
If everybody is having fun, I commend you. Pitting players against each other is usually disastrous. Eventually, when somebody dies, there's a possibility they may claim the GM is favoring the victor. But if everybody in your group is a good sport, then I don't doubt you're having fun with it.
Personally, I hope the dwarf wipes the floor with them, as their obvious and cliched noob behavior is like a noisy fly to me, ripe for swatting. But that's just me.
I like the flame thrower part. That was unexpected and has great potential for chaos. The first suggestion that comes to mind that might contribute even more would be to have the dwarves possessed of some furious, subterranean monster - preferably a highly destructive one - which they use to sniff out intruders.
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Try this: The Marilith knows she is being watched and sends (non-evil) henchmen to intercept the holy men looking for the paladin. They kill the holy men and use magic to take their place, giving the paladin a different set of information that paladin does not know will further the goals of a dark god (that the Marilith made a deal with).
This information includes that the druid is actually of a NG alignment and is under magical compulsion, thus the paladin must protect him from the dwarf and help him get a break enchantment and atonement to return to the ways of good.
Should the paladin succeed to help the evil druid kill the dwarf and obtain the sword, he will lose his paladinhood and be unworthy to wield the good sword.
Wait, are you suggesting to someone DMing total newbies to simply f$$& with the paladin, and try to make him fall right from the beginning, when the other players looked like they were being Chaotic Evil childish jerks ?
I'll not be able to emphasize it more :
Especially to make the paladin fall, without him having any knowledge of what he is truely doing.
If your party is currently the kind to play Evil characters the cruel, childish way, well, I'm not judging, we had a campaign like that when we were newbies and 14 and it was fun... for some weeks. But then, any paladin should be their worst nightmare, someone taking the spotlight, the love of the common people and the loot, not a walking joke.
Try this: The Marilith knows she is being watched and sends (non-evil) henchmen to intercept the holy men looking for the paladin. They kill the holy men and use magic to take their place, giving the paladin a different set of information that paladin does not know will further the goals of a dark god (that the Marilith made a deal with).
This information includes that the druid is actually of a NG alignment and is under magical compulsion, thus the paladin must protect him from the dwarf and help him get a break enchantment and atonement to return to the ways of good.
Should the paladin succeed to help the evil druid kill the dwarf and obtain the sword, he will lose his paladinhood and be unworthy to wield the good sword.
Wait, are you suggesting to someone DMing total newbies to simply f$~# with the paladin, and try to make him fall right from the beginning, when the other players looked like they were being Chaotic Evil childish jerks ?
This is a f@$*ing stupid idea. Especially to make the paladin fall, without him having any knowledge of what he is truely doing.
It's worse than that. This scenario would mean the GM nerfs and kills two PCs intentionally, then forces their players to play their replacements, then also forces another player to play his character with a different alignment.
All of this would be great, if this was not a GM, but an author we were helping. I think maybe this poster misunderstood the situation or maybe didn't read it all.
All the OP is looking for, are ideas to generate a little more spectacle and maybe a bit more chaos. I can understand that. He's having fun, and this campaign has a lot of dark humor.
Paladins are black and white in a grey world. I'm saying to give him roleplay opportunities with the henchmen that replaced the wise men. And then if he believes them, it will cause him to explore more of the character of the druid through RP (which may cause the druid's player to think more about what he is doing). In the end, it blur's the lines that say the dwarf is good and the druid's party is evil and makes everyone take a second look at the motivations behind their actions.
Doing this to an experienced paladin has the chance to fix everything. And if the paladin is not experienced, it offers a string of Wisdom checks for the GM to feed this information to get him thinking about the grey.
It's worse than that. This scenario would mean the GM nerfs and kills two PCs intentionally, then forces their players to play their replacements, then also forces another player to play his character with a different alignment.
All of this would be great, if this was not a GM, but an author we were helping. I think maybe this poster misunderstood the situation or maybe didn't read it all.
All the OP is looking for, are ideas to generate a little more spectacle and maybe a bit more chaos. I can understand that. He's having fun, and this campaign has a lot of dark humor.
I read all of the post. I saw a GM that is promoting PC attacking one another and working against each other. I saw a request for ideas to make things funnier or better. If the GM is purposely trying to mess up the party, then I consider my idea funny (since the GM probably won't help the paladin see the light). If the GM is trying to fix the problem of player's not taking their actions seriously, then I consider my idea a way to help.
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Paladins are black and white in a grey world. I'm saying to give him roleplay opportunities with the henchmen that replaced the wise men. And then if he believes them, it will cause him to explore more of the character of the druid through RP (which may cause the druid's player to think more about what he is doing). In the end, it blur's the lines that say the dwarf is good and the druid's party is evil and makes everyone take a second look at the motivations behind their actions.
Doing this to an experienced paladin has the chance to fix everything. And if the paladin is not experienced, it offers a string of Wisdom checks for the GM to feed this information to get him thinking about the grey.
I'm all for grey worlds and morality, especially when it comes to paladins. Using a trick to push a paladin doing something they would never, ever have done if they were conscious of their deeds is indeed a really good idea... with experienced, and mature players.
And even then, the paladin falling from his status is just needless overkill just for the pleasure of trolling the paladin. A real paladin player tricked this way would spend all his ressources to repair what he did as a part of his roleplay and growth, no need to in addition make him half-worthless, especially if he plays with the kind of players whose comportment in the game is childish at best, and revolting at worst.
I'm all for grey worlds and morality, especially when it comes to paladins. Using a trick to push a paladin doing something they would never, ever have done if they were conscious of their deeds is indeed a really good idea... with experienced, and mature players.
And even then, the paladin falling from his status is just needless overkill just for the pleasure of trolling the paladin. A real paladin player tricked this way would spend all his ressources to repair what he did as a part of his roleplay and growth, no need to in addition make him half-worthless, especially if he plays with the kind of players whose comportment in the game is childish at best, and revolting at worst.
You're forgetting the situation. Should he not uncover the plot that he is being used in, he will wind up with a party of evil characters that may very well being seeing why not to trust demons, with a holy sword that he may not be able to use now but is definitely a physical representation of what he is aspiring to regain, and a dead dwarf that requires his immediate atonement (aka. role play goals). Also, may be in the possession of the sword instead of the evils if they believe he is trying to help them defeat the dwarf, which could save him the trouble of having to kill more PCs to get it away from the party.
One thing you may wish to point out is that druids are guardians and stewards of nature, and demons are decidedly unnatural.
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I just wanted to clear up the surprising way this all came up. They have been playing for about 2 months. Three weeks ago, the Paladin player didn't show up. The other players had been trying to get rich or die trying, but they would go along with what the paladin wanted to do to a certain extent.
In this case, I want to express a warning about the paladin as well : playing a paladin isn't a free card for telling the party how they have to act. There is "guiding", and there is ordering. A paladin player must understand that sometimes, his code or too firm attitude hinders the pleasure of the other players. This is the grey morality border.
The seed had been planted though, and a bunch of the players decided it was more fun to be off the Paladin chain and do what they want.
Do the majority of players find it more pleasurable when the paladin isn't here ? Are they a vocal minority using any occasion to compensate their paladin-like attitude with some more tasty chaos ? Do other players ressent this ? It seems at least the paladin's and two other players do to me.
Character, in-group conflict is something that should be done with the players's knowledge that everyone must have fun. My LG fighter/paladin has always been in conflict with our group's CN barbarian, and with the group's LE alchemist - but we keep the conflict within each player's pleasure. When the game comes to the point everyone wants to split because the others are literally breaking their fun, it is conflict between players. You don't want that and them neither, or else some would probably not even want to play again RPGs after this kind of experience.The question you have to ask yourself is "which players will make the game fun for me and for everyone" ? Right now you want to make them fight, but the problem is that this doesn't seem to me that it is only a purely roleplay conflict. Whatever the ending, someone will be deeply frustrated, it may as well be the childish-evil players.
As a matter of taste, I'd wish the evil guys to be rolled over by the good group, and use this opportunity to attempt another character whose personality and roleplay would better fit the party. This is a teamwork game, not one where players want to fracturate their skulls (but when characters want it, this is funnier, if kept under control by conscious players).
On the other hand, the paladin player must know about sometimes being more lenient, and a bit less dirigiste on his group's approach when faced with a moral conflict.
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You're forgetting the situation. Should he not uncover the plot that he is being used in, he will wind up with a party of evil characters that may very well being seeing why not to trust demons, with a holy sword that he may not be able to use now but is definitely a physical representation of what he is aspiring to regain, and a dead dwarf that requires his immediate atonement (aka. role play goals). Also, may be in the possession of the sword instead of the evils if they believe he is trying to help them defeat the dwarf, which could save him the trouble of having to kill more PCs to get it away from the party.
The important part about this is "a player who is deeply becoming frustrated by his fellow players acting stupidly AND against the fun he could himself have from playing, ends up depowered and forced to stick with them during agonizing sessions of stupid behavior where his current situation will probably be made fun of constantly".
This isn't fun.The party doesn't currently looks mature enough to allow the paladin to take pleasure in this roleplay hook. Don't misunderstand me, I respect you, and I even find your idea to be a really good incursion on the whole "atonishment quest" trope. But right now, the paladin looks like a player frustrated enough for not additionally make life harder for him without asking him (yes, I believe a player should be asked beforehand privately by the DM if he wishes to suffer this kind of nerf someday for the roleplay opportunity, at least on a situation that the Paladin has NO way to avoid), in a group which doesn't look like they will take it seriously at all.
I would have given them a knowledge planes to let htem know demons are not to be trusted.
edit:Of course they may have tried it anyway.
The fact that they reached its lair by using a fairy gate in the floor of the kitchen in an opium den probably could have tipped them off.
Maybe the potential "angel" was keeping it there so drug addicts can't get high, and just had not gotten around to getting rid of it. :)
In all seriousness though I wish I could sit there and watch. I would probably be struggling to keep a straight face. Keep us updated.
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I still like my dwarf TPKs 'em idea as more than tongue-in-cheek humor.
After all, they did trade off up to 30 years of their lives, right?
Cut-scene: after TPK, the dead PCs return to consciousness in Limbo, where they are greeted by the astral-projecting shade of the merelith who will be personally ferrying their souls to the Abyss in exchange for favors from higher ups (she's a "Harvester", she reveals). She goes on to explain how each PC had originally been fated to die at such 'n such a date in the future (all violent ends, given their CE natures), but that their trades with her had resulted in a drastic curtailing of lifespan.
Should the PCs protest they'd been tricked, she'll merely laugh and remind them that she is, after all, a demon. If some of the PCs are elves or other races with long lifespans, she'll laugh again and ask if they got the deal in writing, and were those thirty Abyss years or thirty Limbo years or thirty material plane years, and, well, "I also did say I was a demon, right? If you wanted to bargain with someone who'd keep his word, you should have traded with a devil -- because they're lawful. Ahahhahhaa!"
+1 Mike Schneider's idea.
As a GM I am more inclined to be relentless with players that turn a darker path, making deals with demons should be dangerous though and they are unlikely to keep their word though they might if it infact serves their own purpose and/or promotes chaos and evil.
I'd not get into twisting of the agreement really, that is something that devils like to do while keeping to the letter of the agreement.
Let them get the sword if they can take it, but do not play nice with them. When they get the sword the demon can convert it to chaos and use it to slay the party or have the blade be possessed by an evil spirit that enslaves the wielder, an incubus/succubus with a few class levels maybe.
They will find that their evil ways only served to enslave them to chaos and evil and will cry to turn back to the old ways of goodiness.
So generally evil people do well for themselves. I would not add any supernatural karma. I find it unrealistic for the DM to artificially punish evil conduct. Plenty of evil people operate successful teams and enrich themselves.
That said, these players have not really thought through their plan. They are like wannabe mafiasos who decide they are going to make it big by taking out a capo.
A level 6 Dwarf with 100 underlings should be the end of them... NOT because they were evil... but because they are stupid.
Heck, with some truly creative evil behavior, they might have even been able to coopt the Paladin into the adventure.
There is alot of things in the game that are unrealistic, as I usually create an adventure it will be a level appropriate challenge for the players to handle. I do not cater specifically to players that stray from their characters, so they might have an easy time with some things and the next they may be butchered by a foe 6 or 7 CR over their level.
I don't see anything wrong with a bit of karma either, I usually go with big reward big risk formula and evil characters usually get greedy.
This is a fustercluck.
+1 - I couldn't have put it more politely myself.
I suppose if everyone is having fun, you're doing it right, though.
I suppose the only things I can think of that are missing would be:
1. A Chaotic Evil Gnome Rogue PC that steals everyone else's gear.
2. A half-Vampire, half-Drow, half-tiefling, half-were-dragon, half-warforged necromancer/ninja/samurai
3. A Fantasy RPG / Superheroes / Star-Wars cross-over scene.
4. Two or three Decks of Many Things.
5. A sudden shift into a Low Magic Campaign, and randomly-added House Rules.
6. The Brazilian Death Squad joining the game.
Two things.
First: Bravo. Any character stupid enough to fight something they knew they couldn't win should be buried along with the rest of them. Can you imagine a world full of idiot heros? EEeeeegh. Edit: [/horrible humorous joke] (I am NOT being serious people, before anyone jumps my ass due to translation lost in interwebz)
Second: I'm quite interested to hear the players reactions. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.... Though I do know I'd find this hilarious myself if I were that old dwarf player.
These players are pretty good natured. One was a little irritable but the other two wanted new characters anyway. They took it well and were not too surprised.
Sounds like a crazy game to me. If in general terms, everyone got a bit of fun, more power to you and your players. I'm rather curious as to the actual alignment of the wayward characters, so far I have only read guesses of other posters, to which I adhere thinking they were CE. Were they like that from the start or did they pay not attention at all at alignment?