Warren Chief

Dash Lestowe's page

125 posts. Organized Play character for Jeremy McNitt.

The Exchange

I'm trying to figure out how I can get a specific wayfinder, but the rules and the way everything is written is not making any sense.

I would like a wayfinder that casts detect magic, and read magic. (nothing else).

As I read it, in what makes sense to me:

I must first buy a standard wayfinder (500g).

Then, I can use prestige, and "inherit" it. An inherited wayfinder can cast light and another ability of my choosing.
- This allows me to use read magic, in addition to light.

Then, I use prestige, and add discerning.
- This allows me to use detect magic, instead of light.

As I believe it should work; 500gp, and prestige. The way each section of each book reads, this isn't how it reads that it should work.

Each wayfinder upgrade section says you must first purchase a wayfinder, then upgrade it as follows...

Discerning says can be added to any existing wayfinder, but the description says this wayfinder can cast detect magic instead of light. Seems to imply that when you buy discerning, it is a wayfinder all of it's own.

Same deal with inherited. The wording makes it seem like you buy that upgrade, and you are given a wayfinder that can do these two things.

The rules seem to imply that when you buy a wayfinder upgrade, you do not get that ability added to your existing wayfinder, thereby not allowing multiple enhancements.

Am I reading this right?

The Exchange

In the Pathfinder Society Primer, it says that Ioun Stones resonate as per the Seeker of Secrets.

Which book(s) do you need to have to be able to use ioun stones Resonate Powers in PFS play?

Is just the primer enough?

The resources page says that the Seeker of Secrets and Primer both allow resonate powers per the...

But only the Seeker of Secrets lists them.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Intimidate (Cha) wrote:

You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.

Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.

Frightening (Ex) wrote:
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Cornugon Smash (Combat) wrote:

Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.

Becoming Even More Fearful wrote:
Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

All the relevant abilities are in the spoiler, and the bold sections I'm drawing your attention to.

Scenario: I have two (unarmed) attacks, in one round.

First attack: I make an Unarmed attack, and hit while Power Attacking, I get a free action to Intimidate(Demoralize). If I beat the DC by 10+ (1 for beating it, 1 for Frightening, and 2+ additional rounds for beating the DC by 10 or more), the target becomes shaken for 4+ rounds. Instead of "shaken", I choose to make the creature frightened for 1 round.

Second attack: Also an Unarmed attack, which hits while Power Attacking. I take the free Intimidate(Demoralize) check. Now, I must beat the DC by 15+, (Try again of Intimidate increases the DC by 5).

If I beat the second Intimidate(Demoralize) check by 15+ what happens?

According to Intimidate: Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

However, the Thug Frightening (Ex) ability is what applied the fear condition, not Intimidate. Intimidate alone, the creature would only be shaken for 4+ rounds.

Would the creature be:
- Panicked for 1 round (Frighten a Frightened creature becomes Panicked) or
- Frightened for 5 rounds (1 from the initial Frightening, and extended from the second Intimidate) or
- Frightened for 2 rounds (1 from the first, 1 from the second) or
- Frightened for 1 round, and Shaken for 4+ rounds.


I have dragon style. I get that when charging, running, and withdrawing you can ignore difficult terrain.

Why can't I ignore it if I take a double move action?

Seems to me there isn't much difference between withdrawing from where ever I am to the place I want to be, and just taking a double move to get there.

Is there a mechanical difference between the two?

The Exchange

4 Monk / 4 Ninja

A monk Ki Pool is based on Wisdom.
A ninja Ki Pool is based on Charisma.

Assuming 18 for each, would said character have a 12 point Ki Pool, that it could use for either class?

(4/2 +4) + (4/2 +4) = 12


If I am wearing armor with the Brawling Armor Property, and have an Amulet of Mighty fists with the Furious Weapon Property, when I rage and make an unarmed attack, will I have a +4 bonus on the weapon, allowing me to overcome damage reduction like adamantine?

If I add +1 to it, does it overcome alignment based DR?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Overcoming-DR wrote:

DR Type - Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent

Magic - +1
Cold iron / silver - +3
Adamantine* - +4
Alignment-based - +5

The Exchange

Not wanting to start up that whole other thread, please, lets not.

Example build:

Tiefling, Claws ability
1 - Alchemist - Arch type - Ragechemist
- Feat: Weapon Focus (Claw)
2 Barbarian - Arch type - Invulnerable Rager
3 - Alchemist
- Discovery: Feral Mutagen
- Feat Extra Discovery: (Vestigial Arm)
4 Barbarian -
- Rage Power: Fiend Totem (Lesser)
5 - Alchemist
- Feat: Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)

Without VA, I should have claw/claw/bite/gore right? claws from race, bite from mutagen, gore from totem - (all primary natural attacks)

4 valid legit, not ua/ua/c/c stuff, normal natural attacks.

After I should be able to claw/claw/claw/claw. Second set of claws from mutagen, replace bite attack with claw attack, replace gore attack with claw attack.

Does anyone disagree? Just for arguments, sake, lets jest keep it to yes or no - like a poll, instead of a discussion.

The Exchange

Where do you read about the ones that cannot be taken together?

Like I've read you can't take lesser this one, and lesser that one at the same time.

The Exchange

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

The original post doesn't actually contain a question.

Try again by posting a clear question.
Be civil.
Thread closed.

Reposting as requested.

I am a tiefling alchemist, with the tiefling trait Claws. As I understand it, a full-round attack sequence would look like this:
Claw/Claw. or
Unarmed (x1) or
Weapon (x1)

A few levels later, I take two Vestigial Arms.

Before I took either Vestigial Arm, I had two claw natural weapons. The discovery specifically states, you gain no additional attacks.

A full-round attack sequence would remain the same as before the Vestigial Arm, and that would be still:
Claw/Claw. or
Unarmed (x1) or
Weapon (x1)

I understand that it would not be:
Claw/Claw/Unarmed/Unarmed nor
Claw/Claw/Weapon/Weapon nor
Claw/Claw/Unarmed/Weapon nor
Unarmed/Claw/Claw nor

A few levels later I take the discovery Feral mutagen, craft one, then drink it.

What would an all natural weapon full-round attack sequence consist of?

The Exchange

20 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Question unclear. 1 person marked this as a favorite.


I've searched the forums on this topic, and I see there are many, many posts. I don't see a definitive agreement, nor a paizo developer addresing specifically if vestigial arms and multiple sources for claw attacks work together or not. (There are several threads where developers have addresssed specific points on either side, but nothing about that)

Quick recap:
There are several abilities (using the developer FAQ lingo) that grant you access to a "2 claw attack" (Tengu, Tiefling, Ranger, Barbarian, Alchemist, etc...). The alchemist discovery Vestigial Arm grants you additional arms. If you take two different "2 claw attack" abilities and two vestigial arms, do they equal 4 claw natural attacks.


FAQ - Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Half-Orc--Toothy: Does this alternate racial trait stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?

This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

Unless you get a second mouth, the access to the ability does not stack. Inferring that if you do have a second mouth, they would stack.

Furthermore, there is a current in-game, president of this mechanic working that is not subject to debate. A summoner can take an Eidelon and give it 4 arms with 4 claw attacks (2x1-point Claw evolutions and a 2-point Limbs evolution). (4 total evolutions)

Limbs Evolution wrote:
Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.

There several posts where the developers have said, that if an ability grants you the same ability, but called something else, it's still the same. (Positive Energy Channel, Bonuses from Dex - Fury's Fall, etc...) In this case, Vestigial Arm, and Limbs grant you extra arms. To borrow John's lingo, they are the same idea, in multiple ways. They both say that the "wearer" gains additional limbs, that grant no additional attacks. They should be treated the same.

Where Limbs deviates, is that it goes on to state that they can have attacks if the other evolutions are taken.

One side of the debate says that this lack of additional wordage in the Vestigial Arms discovery is why it doesn't add up to 4 (effects must say they grant X for X to be legal). Others say that it's not needed to specifically state that as, paraphrasing John, unless you have access to a second set of arms, they do not stack. Many feel the RAW supports both sides of the debate.

However, without that specific text in the discovery, it remains the subject for great debate. Can we avoid letting this thread devolve into a re-hash of all the other threads questioning the same thing. Simply, please FAQ request this. If a table could have a ruling go either way depending on how the GM interprets RAW, I believe a FAQ would be required to allow uniform play.

It clearly has been asked many, many times, with valid points on either side. I think I've fairly represented both sides.

The Exchange

If you had a pair of vestigial arms, could you wear an additional set of magical bracers, pair of rings and gloves?

In 3.5, unless you had a feat letting you (which I don't see pathfinder having), I understand they wouldn't all work at the same time. (one set of bracers, gloves, and 2 rings)

Could you wear, for example, two sets of bracers of armor, each with a different property. Use a standard action to turn off the first set, standard action to enable the second set? (instead of a move action to get one, X-round(s) action to take the first set off, and the same to put the second set on, move action to put the first set away)

Or wear a ring of sustenance, and regeneration (on your off hands), while actively wearing a ring of jump/climbing.

When needed disable jumping, enact regeneration. etc...

The Exchange


I posted a thread requesting some ruling questions in the general section. It was moved to advice, and relabeled. (I see there's also a ruling forum, but not sure why it wasn't moved there)

I posted a different thread in the advice forum, without having to be moved, nor relabeled. I'm wondering if the higher up PFS organizers read the advice forum as much as they read this one?

If not, how would one go about requesting input specifically from some of the PFS organizers?


The Exchange

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hello again,

I have another question in the lines of my feral Tiefling idea.

As a monk fighter, this is my build:

Tiefling Race - Maw or Claws (Claw)

1 Fighter (Unarmed)
- Lev 1 Feat: Weapon Focus (Claw)
- Bonus Feat: - Boar Style
- Bonus Feat: - Improved Unarmed Strike

2 Monk - Master of Styles
- Bonus Feat: - Boar Ferocity

3 Fighter
- Lev 3 Feat: Feral Combat Training (Claw)
- Bonus Feat: - Belier's Bite


Could someone confirm that I am reading the rules correctly -


Feral Combat Training wrote:

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Belier's Bite wrote:

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: When you damage an opponent with an unarmed strike, you deal an extra 1d4 bleed damage.

Special: This ability does not stack with other special abilities, attacks, or items that allow you to deal bleed damage

Unamed Strike wrote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.

The way I see this is:

With the claw or maw trait, I gain a pair of D4 claw attacks.
As a monk, I have a D6 Unarmed Strike.
With Belier's Bite, My Unarmed Strike becomes a D6, with a D4 bleed.

With FCT, both claw attacks now also has this ability. Meaning they are a D4 dmg, with a D4 bleed. (Though, bleeds do not stack). My reasoning is that first part of FTC says "While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite,".

This is my first question I don't think there's much grey in this, but I'm getting push-back from some saying this isn't true. Am I correct in that interpretation?

The second question, and cause for quite a bit more push-back is this: The second part about the FTC feat says ", as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."

As I interpret this, the normal unarmed strike that non-monks have is a D3. When you take a monk, per the class feature, your unarmed strike is modified per the table. It now becomes a D6, then increases in die category as you level.

I believe, that this should also apply to the claw, since it's an effect that augments an unarmed strike.

That said, I believe that the above Monk/Fighter should have:

A pair of claw attacks that do D6dmg + D4 bleed.
And a single unarmed strike, that does a D6dmg + D4 bleed.

When you post, could you please address each question differently? (like 1 true - 2 true, or 1 true - 2 false because...)

Thanks again.

The Exchange

I have made some posts as Dash, and I would like to combine them.

It seems that the message board has a board only account, and when I created a character, they are two different accounts.

I've gone into the character, and said set as default, but when I go into my account, it says the message board account is the active one.

When I posted this message, it used the character one. What's up?

Hey all,

I've been playing a Tiefling, and really like it. I was trying out some different ideas for how to make a feral one, with feats and things supporting claw based attacks.

There's a lot of posts here, but I still have one question that doesn't really seem like it gets answered.

One build idea I have is an alch/barbarian. Beast totem, Feral mutagen, and the Claw or Maws (Claw) trait.

As I add either of the first two, the build seems to make sense, the tiefling becomes more feral, and what I believe happens is that it's hind legs (or feet) become clawed weapons, and allow you to do attacks with them.

When I add the third option, it doesn't make sense anymore. Does it become a 6 fingered man? (a 6 armed tiefling)

Any help would be appreciated (please note, I said I've read many posts here, and while many talk about the legality of it, - as in can you do it legitimately, none really make sense of the the logistics of it)

Also, how does one do a pounce type attack, does the tiefling literally have to jump on the character, in some sort of improvised grapple?

Thanks for your time