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You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.
Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
Scenario: I have two (unarmed) attacks, in one round.
First attack: I make an Unarmed attack, and hit while Power Attacking, I get a free action to Intimidate(Demoralize). If I beat the DC by 10+ (1 for beating it, 1 for Frightening, and 2+ additional rounds for beating the DC by 10 or more), the target becomes shaken for 4+ rounds. Instead of "shaken", I choose to make the creature frightened for 1 round.
Second attack: Also an Unarmed attack, which hits while Power Attacking. I take the free Intimidate(Demoralize) check. Now, I must beat the DC by 15+, (Try again of Intimidate increases the DC by 5).
If I beat the second Intimidate(Demoralize) check by 15+ what happens?
According to Intimidate: Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
However, the Thug Frightening (Ex) ability is what applied the fear condition, not Intimidate. Intimidate alone, the creature would only be shaken for 4+ rounds.
Would the creature be:
- Panicked for 1 round (Frighten a Frightened creature becomes Panicked) or
- Frightened for 5 rounds (1 from the initial Frightening, and extended from the second Intimidate) or
- Frightened for 2 rounds (1 from the first, 1 from the second) or
- Frightened for 1 round, and Shaken for 4+ rounds.
I would rule that the target was Frightened for one round. Nothing about the Thug ability says it stacks duration or causes even greater fear effects, and as it's still a demoralize attempt from Intimidate the riders (no greater fear conditions and durations don't stack) still apply.
You could choose to keep the shaken rounds for the second attack instead, resulting in your last suggested result. (I don't know why you wouldn't, actually, but you'd have the choice. :-)
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I would rule that the target was Frightened for one round. Nothing about the Thug ability says it stacks duration or causes even greater fear effects, and as it's still a demoralize attempt from Intimidate the riders (no greater fear conditions and durations don't stack) still apply.
Becoming Even More Fearful says if you fear a creature again, it gets a more feared condition. Frightening (Ex) doesn't need to specifically call that out, as it's already the defined outcome. Frightening (Ex) would need to specifically say it doesn't do that, if the result was to intended to be something else.
You could choose to keep the shaken rounds for the second attack instead, resulting in your last suggested result. (I don't know why you wouldn't, actually, but you'd have the choice. :-)
Becoming Even More Fearful also says if you Shaken a Frightened creature, it becomes Panicked.
However, Intimidate specifically says a second Intimidate(Demoralize) attempt extends the fear, not increases it. The current fear condition is Frightened.
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My thought is that you would be Frightened for 2 rounds.
My reasoning is that even though Frightening (Ex) doesn't spell out (nor need to) fear conditions, it is still a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize), which means that the second Frighten doesn't increase to Panicked. It just extends the duration.
The question is if that is a correct assumption. (That being is Frightening (Ex) a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize)?)
My thought is that you would be Frightened for 2 rounds.
My reasoning is that even though Frightening (Ex) doesn't spell out (nor need to) fear conditions, it is still a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize), which means that the second Frighten doesn't increase to Panicked. It just extends the duration.
The question is if that is a correct assumption. (That being is Frightening (Ex) a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize)?)
I agree.
Frightening (Ex) doesn't do anything in itself. It affects what happens when you use intimidate to demoralize.
So the condition, whether shaken for several rounds, or frightened, still comes from you demoralizing the enemy.
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My thought is that you would be Frightened for 2 rounds.
My reasoning is that even though Frightening (Ex) doesn't spell out (nor need to) fear conditions, it is still a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize), which means that the second Frighten doesn't increase to Panicked. It just extends the duration.
The question is if that is a correct assumption. (That being is Frightening (Ex) a subset of Intimidate(Demoralize)?)
I agree.
Frightening (Ex) doesn't do anything in itself. It affects what happens when you use intimidate to demoralize.
So the condition, whether shaken for several rounds, or frightened, still comes from you demoralizing the enemy.
I agree on the interpretation too.
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I would like additional opinions on this, if anyone has time.
You hit them, and satisfy the condition to choose make them frightened for one round. You choose to make them frightened for one round. End result, they are frightened for one round.
You hit them again, and again satisfy the condition to choose to make them frightened for one round. You may choose to do so, but the duration wouldn't stack. You would be overlapping a 1 round frighten on top of another 1 round frighten. The best thing to do, would be to add the 5+ rounds of shaken. End result, they are frightened for 1 round, and then shaken for the next 4. You would not make them panicked, because Demoralize doesn't stack severity with itself. You would not increase the duration of the frightened effect, because there is no language in the ability to allow for that. It is set at a flat 1 round.
I would argue that the frighten duration stacks. So the second intimidate you can bump the duration up.
although demoralize directly states the fear effects do not stack from other demolarize.
Now if you had someone do a dirty trick to cause the shaken conditioned those would panic someone.
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Demoralize doesn't stack severity with itself. You would not increase the duration of the frightened effect, because there is no language in the ability to allow for that. It is set at a flat 1 round.
It appears that you are attempting to use the "Intimidate (Demoralize)" skill as the basis for your opinion that the fear effects do not create a stronger fear condition. Then you switch back to the Frighten (Ex) ability and say that does not contain rules for increasing the duration, therefore it does not.
Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
The sentence addressing the non-stronger fear condition, specifically says it extends the duration.
I agree the Frightening ability still follow the general rules for Demoralize, except you can convert shaken to frightened.
So you end up with two rounds of frightened, it would not become panicked.
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What would happen if instead of the first Unarmed Strike, you did a dirty trick to apply the shaken condition (through Quick Dirty Trick feat), and then followed that with a Power Attack, Unarmed Strike, opting to use the free Intimidate(Demoralize) from Cornugon Smash?
If you beat the DC by 10, you should be able to frighten the target with the Frightening (Ex) ability.
The target should now become Panicked, according to the Becoming More Fearful rules. (and because you didn't Intimidate (Demoralize) the creature twice)
Right?
What would happen if instead of the first Unarmed Strike, you did a dirty trick to apply the shaken condition (through Quick Dirty Trick feat), and then followed that with a Power Attack, Unarmed Strike, opting to use the free Intimidate(Demoralize) from Cornugon Smash?
If you beat the DC by 10, you should be able to frighten the target with the Frightening (Ex) ability.
The target should now become Panicked, according to the Becoming More Fearful rules. (and because you didn't Intimidate (Demoralize) the creature twice)
Right?
Well, it's an interesting point you have. However, as a GM I'm also aware that the rule that you can't increase the level of fear was written before Dirty Tricks existed within the game. I think RAI it doesn't work but thats just my opinion.
So if I understand this correctly, you're asking if two separate applications of the frightened condition via the frightening ability stack the duration?
Although I would ask for an official ruling, I think stacking the duration is a fair one. It follows the intent of the standard demoralized condition without being ridiculously strong.
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So if I understand this correctly, you're asking if two separate applications of the frightened condition via the frightening ability stack the duration?
Although I would ask for an official ruling, I think stacking the duration is a fair one. It follows the intent of the standard demoralized condition without being ridiculously strong.
My original question was that, yes. It seems like several people seem to agree with that.
The second question is slightly different. Instead of stacking two Intimidate (Demoralize), I was doing a Dirty Trick (Shaken), and an one Intimidate (Demoralize).