Ah but see the plan is always deeper then ruined juice, you see the plan also involves lack of towels the clean up the juice you just spewed all over your floor. But then you got to ask yourself. Does the plan involve me going out to get something to clean this up? Or maybe using a shirt? Or wait what if the plan is to let it dry and attract ants?
You.
JUst.
Do.
Not.
Know!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ah but see the plan is always deeper then ruined juice, you see the plan also involves lack of towels the clean up the juice you just spewed all over your floor. But then you got to ask yourself. Does the plan involve me going out to get something to clean this up? Or maybe using a shirt? Or wait what if the plan is to let it dry and attract ants?
You.
JUst.
Do.
Not.
Know!MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
And before you know it the economy's gone to hell your girlfriend leaves you your mother is dating a guy younger than you and the change on your night stand goes missing. All. Part. Of the plan.
"Well, if it is just the one guy, Ol Asmmy needs to double check his planning"
Paladin of Asmodeus you say? (not my story)
We had a campaign in D&D where we assembled a steampunk-ish time machine. After many sessions travelling through time, uncovering mysteries and learning harsh lessons about changing history, we had to stop a time-travelling cult from destroying the gods, and therefore the world. We failed.
Our machine crashed, we were stranded earlier than we had ever been able to travel. We found the Gods, but only a few of them were present- it was as if some had never existed. Then we realised- we had to become those Gods. Our party was entirely divine (Cleric, Paladin, Avenger, Invoker), and each of us was a worshipper of a god who had been unmade- and we were only people in existance with enough knowledge of forgotten deities to assume their roles.
But two of the players were worshippers of Io (in his twin forms of Tiamat and Bahamut, who of course would form later after Io's 'death'), and only one could become Io. The other would have to be the un-created Asmodeus.
So the most just, honourable and dedicated Lawful Good Paladin I've ever seen roleplayed became the god of tyranny and evil. If he hadn't, the gods would never have defeated the primordials, and the world would never have been completed.
In our setting, Asmodeus is every bit the epitome of evil you would expect him to be. Nobody but the gods who abide his presence know him as otherwise. He adheres to his role because he knows he has to- and that in doing so, the world can exist. He can never tell anyone his duty, and noone who knows can ever discuss it.
In the farthest recesses of the Nine Hells, in a chamber sealed tighter than any other in existance is a pocketwatch of finest gnome craft with a photo of his family in it- his wife, son and little baby girl.
They were killed by an orc army marching under the orders and banner of Asmodeus. Their deaths are what drove him to become an adventurer.
This is not only Epic Fail for a paladin, it's Divine Epic Fail.
Instead of trying to create a reality where there is no Asmodeus, the paladin becomes the King of Hell?
This is about chucking 'good', thinking good can't do the job, and embracing evil just because 'you have to'.
If Asmodeus was meant to exist, he will exist without a Paladin having to become the King of Hell to do so.
A true Paladin would have celebrated his chance to change destiny and proceeded forwards from that rationale. He threw his code out the window when he made his choice. He didn't HAVE to become Asmodeus...he CHOSE to. That's Epic Fall all the way.
And he deserves nothing but derision for making that decision. He made Asmodeus EXIST, brought him into being. Ugh. Just, Ugh.
Which doesn't detract that it's an awesome tale, but it just reeks of DM railroading. "Somebody has to be Asmodeus." Riiiight.
===Aelryinth
I'm not sure I would go that far as calling it a failure. Certainly a tragedy. Time traveling shenanigans can be complicated. Perhaps the apladin felt that if someoen should be Asmodeus it may as well be himself and take the sacrifice.
In any event, he ceased to be a paladin the moment he took up the reigns of Hell. He is not LG acting LE, He is LE all the way and is a fallen creature.
In any event, he ceased to be a paladin the moment he took up the reigns of Hell. He is not LG acting LE, He is LE all the way and is a fallen creature.
Oh, no doubt. Road to hell good intentions and all that.
Oh, no doubt. Road to hell good intentions and all that.
I wouldn't be to sure, some in this thread would claim he is still a paladin and LG...just acting :)
While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Asmodeus is an evil character, and being a paladin of Asmodeus is certainly working with him. An LE rogue is also an evil character, and adventuring with him is certainly working with him.
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.
Asmodeus is hard to exceed as an evil, and "exceptional circumstances" means that you can't routinely ally with evil, as would be involved in serving him. An LE rogue is not particularly hard to exceed, but, again, you can't routinely ally with evil.
Now, somebody's going to scream RAW and try to rules-lawyer that the associates text is not explicitly part of the code, and therefore you don't fall for breaking this rule. Fine. You can do whatever you want in your campaigns, even let him eat barbecued infant dwarves for lunch. After all, it isn't explicitly banned by the code, and it's not like the paladin did the slaughtering and cooking . . .
This is not only Epic Fail for a paladin, it's Divine Epic Fail.
Instead of trying to create a reality where there is no Asmodeus, the paladin becomes the King of Hell?This is about chucking 'good', thinking good can't do the job, and embracing evil just because 'you have to'.
If Asmodeus was meant to exist, he will exist without a Paladin having to become the King of Hell to do so.
A true Paladin would have celebrated his chance to change destiny and proceeded forwards from that rationale. He threw his code out the window when he made his choice. He didn't HAVE to become Asmodeus...he CHOSE to. That's Epic Fall all the way.
And he deserves nothing but derision for making that decision. He made Asmodeus EXIST, brought him into being. Ugh. Just, Ugh.
Which doesn't detract that it's an awesome tale, but it just reeks of DM railroading. "Somebody has to be Asmodeus." Riiiight.
There's nothing wrong with a little bit of railroading as long as everyone is having fun. And, what's worse, the paladin becoming Asmodeus, or the paladin (potentially) unmaking reality by creating a time paradox?
He wouldn't be unmaking reality, he'd be making a new reality where Hell might not actually exist. Beginning of time and all, natch.
==Aelryinth
Depends on what theory of time travel the GM subscribes to. That's why I put that (potentially) in there.
He wouldn't be unmaking reality, he'd be making a new reality where Hell might not actually exist. Beginning of time and all, natch.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, I'm just the sort of bastard GM who'd put soemthign worse in his place. Evil exists with or without hell. The nice thing about evil however is that it hates itself equally as it does good so it can often keep greater evils down.
So you stop hell but now the Abyss is at your doorstep because the blood war is not happening. Good job.
Evil will be, No matter what evil would have happened. All the so called paladin did was make himself evil in place of making himself into something that can combat and keep that evil in check.
I am fully with Aelryinth here.
All the so called paladin did was make himself evil in place of making himself into something that can combat and keep that evil in check.
An elegant solution but with its own host of problems. Time dickery is funny that way.
Yes it is. However as a paladin it was his duty to combat evil, not spread that evil. He shoudl have opposed it in all forms. It really is that simple.
I actually like this story. Obviously a bit of GM fiat but the choice facing the paladin is to either hold to his beliefs and doom reality, as was stated without Asmodeus creation couldn't be completed, or sacrifice himself and his soul to save the world. Just picturing someone play out that awful choice sounds like all kinds of awesome RP story fun.
As to the original discussion, I think it all comes down to "working with" is not the same as "serving". A paladin would work with Asmodeus' servants towards a common goal, ie Worldwound, but would never be one of those servants himself.
He wouldn't be unmaking reality, he'd be making a new reality where Hell might not actually exist. Beginning of time and all, natch.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, I'm just the sort of bastard GM who'd put soemthign worse in his place. Evil exists with or without hell. The nice thing about evil however is that it hates itself equally as it does good so it can often keep greater evils down.
So you stop hell but now the Abyss is at your doorstep because the blood war is not happening. Good job.
which is...Dm railroading. La. And if Evil exists, I assume LAWFUL evil exists, and thus devils would exist if demons exist, and they'd still be fighting one another, and something would rise to command the Lawful devils.
And maybe it'd end up calling itself Asmodeus. But it wouldn't be the idiot paladin.
==Aelryinth
which is...Dm railroading. La. And if Evil exists, I assume LAWFUL evil exists, and thus devils would exist if demons exist, and they'd still be fighting one another, and something would rise to command the Lawful devils.And maybe it'd end up calling itself Asmodeus. But it wouldn't be the idiot paladin.
==Aelryinth
It's not railroading for a GM to lay out consequences for ones actions. If he chooses to not become that evil he is obligated to halt any evil that may rise in its place. If he is unwilling to do the obvious and no doubt evil solution before him he must take on the burden of finding an alternate path. There are other forces at work besides good and evil as well. Forces of balance might come baying for the paladins blood for tipping that balance too far in goods favor. Creatures from outside the cosmos might rip through the schism left by the time dickery. This isn't DM railroading this is plot development. A paladin unwilling to compromise has to be capable of dealing with the consequences.
Sometimes I present such situations to PC's and it always irks me that they take the obvious solutions I tell them at face value rather than seek a third solution out. I think the one presented by seeker interests me most because it's a non compromise that actually presents itself as a solution. Seeker's paladin won't put himself in the shoes of an evil deity, he'll become a completely new one, one that stands before this maw of darkness for all time ready to strike down any evil that dares rise within his sight. It'll have consequences, some good, some bad, but it works as good storytelling. Even in the previous arrangement it's still a good story and the players move on to new characters, this isn't a bad thing it sounds like endgame crap anyhow, the point where dice don't matter and can be handled mostly through narration. So what's the point of getting angry?
Here's a tip to anyone who would be a player, never take the solutions presented to you at face value or as the only options available to you. A good GM rewards players who think creatively and are willing to try risky avenues in crazy situations.
Let me present a real example in spoiler tags so as to not atake up so much space.
For the past year or so I've been running a pathfinder game set in a homebrew world where the players are viking warriors risen from Valhalla to take part in Ragnarok. One of the palyers made an Oracle of Bones ith a vast backhistory detailing how he was feared for his dark power and eternal hunger for the life force of his enemies. He had come from a cannibalistic and primitive tribe that was conquered adn enslaved by norseman. He backhandedly mentioned a daughter whom he loved but accidentally scarred with his power before going to raid that year. He was betrayed and killed by his fellow clan members out of sheer terror. That's when he died.
Now fast forward 500 years later to his ressurrection on midgard. After several game sessions where the palyers got used to a vastly changed world of christianity stand in religions, magical firearms, and a world that's essentially forgotten their gods exist they came across what was thought to be a mythical svartgald city where they were searching for a pair of wolves they believed would devour the sun and moon if unleashed. Well it turns out the Svartgald had been conquered by a lich queen dedicated to Hel. Well they decide that Hel certainly has no vested interest in being destroyed in Ragnarok so they decide to come visit the lich queen and present themselves.
As soon as they enter the oracle player knows he's made a msitake. All around him are images of an all too familiar woman with a hand shaped scar on her cheek.
And so they were presented to the lich queen a 15th level cleric of Hel who also happened to be the Oracles daughter. She met them and was none too happy to see her father. She described that after the men came back they claimed that he had betrayed them and they killed him out of self defense and no longer fearing his wrath had had their way with her. I'll leave out the details but it was pretty horrible. So she turned first to the gods for aid, and when they would not listen to her she turned to the dark forces trying to find her father in helheim (he was in valhalla turns out). Hel answered. She became a priestess adn thena lich tied to the goddesses power and returned to the pc's village to burn it to the ground and kill everyone as a sacrifice in hel's name. Unlike her father she continued to grow in pwoer and might while he was boozing in valhalla. Eventually she conquered and subjugated the dark elves and put in place a theocracy of hel with her on top.
In short she was none too pleased about her father simply showing up after five hundred years of torment and only to oppose her. But at this point he was so beneath her notice that she was willin to let him go and let him watch as she opened the gates to end the world.
So the palyer's are basically left facing down an encounter so far beyond their level they'll straight up die if they mess with her. However if they walk away they'll likely have to deal with her army of fanatics, not an easy solution.
So, what happens?
The Oracle palyer does the unexpected. From hsi characters perspective that's his daughter there. He hugs her. Surprised she feebly fights but ultimately gives in. She's hugged. By her father. So she cries. She cries out five centuries of frustration and sadness over losing her father.
It could have been harder, it could have been a TPK. Instead they took a completley unexpected route and ended up better off then they otherwise would have been.
Moral of the story: sometimes the best solution is the one that takes the GM completely off guard but makes absolute sense in hindsight. Hug the lich.
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Liches, which are undead by sheer force of personality and desire for power, cry?
Well, whatever works.
And OF COURSE the Paladin would oppose whatever Evil arose to take Asmodeus' place. And if Balance came for him, he'd challenge one of THEM to take the place of Evil, if they must INSIST on Evil having to exist. It's not his responsibility to right the Balance, it's his to fight Evil, all the time, everywhere. If they want Evil, suck it and do their job. If they want to do Evil's job and fight him, he's more then willing to comply if they're doing Evil's work.
Just because they already know what Asmodeus is going to do in the future does not make him the best option. Having one more force for good in the past could change a LOT of things.
And it's funny how ages fallen to Evil exist all the time, but when an Age falls to Good, Neutrality must rise to oppose it. Classic.
==Aelryinth
It's not railroading for a GM to lay out consequences for ones actions.
which is...Dm railroading. La. And if Evil exists, I assume LAWFUL evil exists, and thus devils would exist if demons exist, and they'd still be fighting one another, and something would rise to command the Lawful devils.And maybe it'd end up calling itself Asmodeus. But it wouldn't be the idiot paladin.
==Aelryinth
That is not universally true. It really depends on the specific situation.
If someone does the evil things needed to be a lich they are far beyond a hug IMHO. If I am willing to have the players in a no win situation they aren't walking away with a hug. People that were forced to be vampires dont even repent that easily, and to be a lich is an actual quest that might take years or decades to accomplish.
If someone does the evil things needed to be a lich they are far beyond a hug IMHO. If I am willing to have the players in a no win situation they aren't walking away with a hug. People that were forced to be vampires dont even repent that easily, and to be a lich is an actual quest that might take years or decades to accomplish.
Who said anything about repenting? He was just as much an evil bastard as she was. And this was his daughter regardless of however much evil she had committed. She was out to destroy the world, he was out to conquer it, later he'd get an artifact containing the souls of a thousand dead warriors he planned on using as a phylactery.
@Aelryinth: We're not talking about the rule of a temporal empire here. We're talking about the genesis of the universe itself. Big diff.