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Hey guys. I've been GMing for a couple years now, and I'm finally getting good enough at it to break out of my comfort zone a bit. Now normally, I tend to run high fantasy adventures in magic heavy settings. Partially because that gives me the most wiggle room in world crafting, but mostly it's because it's become the only way I know how. After watching the first 3 seasons of Game of Thrones with my group, and delving into the book series shortly after, my group want to try a setting thats more gritty and realistic. I'm completely okay with this, but its not something I'm used to. So I was wondering if any fellow GMs have any suggestion or good home brew rules to implement. What classes and races should be allowed? What kind of monsters should they fight? What kind of special/magic arms and equipment should I give them, or should I give any out at all?
Step 1: E6, look up the E6 rules, use them for pathfinder. There are no 20th level characters in game of thrones. Capping things at 6th level will mean battles are always dangerous even with just normal folk.
Step 2: Here is where it gets messy. Magic. The game assumes quite a bit of magic. It is designed to work with it. But game of thrones doesnt really have it. There are some examples of it here and there, but its extermely rare, and a party loaded down with it would be problematic.
You really shouldnt have any classes in the game that start with spells at 1st level. That kind of becomes problematic as it cuts out alot of options.
I'd use the super genius games Archetype products.
They allow a suite of abilities from any class to be traded out for one of archetypes. The paladin, ranger, bard, and inquisitor can all trade out their spell casting for one of these options or you can use the spell less ranger and paladin archetypes.
I would then allow them or another class to trade back for one of the archane or divine archetypes. They give back some spell casting, but its not as dramatic and more limited then that of normal classes. Speciifcally the Divine archetype - Wise, would be extermely important, as the party still needs healing to be able to function as the game expects. This would at least give you some options (though the party will probably still need days to recover from battles instead of minutes).
I personally would also want to use the alchemist but its a little high magic for such a setting, though its certainly less overt then a wizard. Maybe require them to trade out both packages available in the archetype prducts (giving up mutegens and bombs), and requiring the infusion discovery to be taken at 2nd level.
In terms of equipment, I would leave it out entirely. Mundane gear only. They will be weaker then a normal party, but with 6 as the cap it wont be catestrophic, and its supposed to be dangerous and gritty anyway right?
Just do a search for E6 or E8 rules, although Pathfinder may not be the best system for dark and gritty, but it could work. I would look at Conan or Game of Thrones RPGs (d20 versions). Warhammer 2E is also really good, but different from d20 games.
You can change masterwork weapons and armor to include enhancement bonuses and other bonuses as you see fit, such as keen. Basically anything that is not overtly magical in nature (like a sword that flames upon command) could work as an exceptionally crafted weapon. Treat any and all magic items as if a its one of a kind and an artifact in its own right.
Stick to PF core if you wish to still use pathfinder
maybe half the number of spells PC's can use per day.
give every spelluser 2 more skull points
lots human opponents
I'm doing something similar called Lord of thrones....fantasy war of the roses
Good luck
They key to playing low magic in a d20 game like Pathfinder is to stay low level.
If the campaign is not going to be very long and you know the PCs won't make it to 8th level, just play the game as it is.
If you think the campaign would probably run for long enough so that characters will reach 7th level and higher and you will continue to play after that point, then the really best choice is E6.
E6 Pathfinder may not be the perfect system for a gritty campaign, but it is a very simple rule that allows you to play a pretty gritty campaign without having to get and learn a new rules system. That's the real selling point of E6: Playing a grittier game when you want to keep using all the material you already have and know.
In either case, the biggest difference isn't even in the abilities of the PCs, but in the items and spells they can get from NPCs for pay. A group of 5th level characters in a world with no 7th level spellcasters will have a very different experience than a group of 5th level characters in a world with plenty of 20th level spellcasters. (If you are quite sure the PCs won't surpass 7th level, you can simply make a world in which the highest level NPCs are 7th or 8th level and don't even have to bother with the special E6 rules.)
If looking for inspiration , AD&D(2ed) had a setting that had some interesting rules for casters.
Nehwon - was a world scavenger hunt campaign that was sort of fun. you would needs tons of updating, and translation to pathfinder. but it was a fun place to play( if you can track down the 2edition module) and the entire thing was about the scarcity of magic.
The casting times were for all spells increased in the campaign, and magic was super rare and hard to use. I think 1 standard action, or 1 round (2nd ed) would have its casting time increased to 1 minute. full round would have been 1 hour or 10 minutes etc..
It had some other rule about being either a black or white wizard, which i dont recall of the top of my head.( not sure if that would work in pathfinder though)
With these things there were also spells that simply did not work.
Anyway when ever i think of low magic adventures i think of that module/ world....
Oh this E6 rule set looks very promising! They'll probably get there asses handed to em, but its what they asked for! haha
If you want to do Game of Thrones, I mean really do Game of Thrones, then Pathfinder isn't the game system for you.
If you want to do Pathfinder inspired by Game of Thrones, that's different and workable. The first part is to make sure your player's expectations that it will be like every other Pathfinder are wiped away, only then would succeed at an inspired by game. I'd make casting classes require 2 levels of non-casting classes be required prior to taking a casting class. The ability of players to create magic items would be gone. And magic items would simply be rare (maybe 1 per player in the campaign). And just because an item is magical doesn't mean you have to call it that. Give magic items meaning like a novel series does. Then you adjust CR of encounters based on what is going on. This will be the most difficult part because CRs are pretty much expecting you to have 4 Pathfinder core race/class combos and that's just not what you are playing. So you really have to consider the abilities of the creature if it is supernatural and not just an NPC Class/race combo to determine the CR of the encounter. As for the grit, that's mostly what the flavor and way you play the NPCs is from, not so much the game system or rules system.
That's the short to the point answer regarding how do you do a low-magic Pathfinder game INSPIRED by Game of Thrones. You want to mimic Game of Thrones, then Pathfinder isn't the system to do it in.
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I am also doing a Campaign in Westeros using the flavor of the game world in a background sense. It is pretty much straight Pathfinder with a few changes.
- First since I as the DM control the game and the players understand that this is a low magic world and have accepted that I really need change very little.
Magic weapons and armor do exist but the plus bonus refers to "Craftsman Bonus" not "magic" i.e. a Valryian Steel blade might have a craftsman bonus of +2 or more whereas a Dragon glass weapon might have a special property as well as craftsman bonus such as fire.
In order to account for the armored warrior flavor of Westeros I allow armor not to slow speed however encumbrance still does. Its a simple change and with the absence of much protection magic PCs gravitate to armor as the flavor of the world dictates. There are no restrictions to armor for class and this is vetted out by a PC's strength score as classes with lower strength in armor are pretty slow. Magical protection, if found, is considered Armor and does not "stack". Rules for Partial Armor apply and those with out means typically cannot simply afford protection.
- Second No PC classes for Arcane Spell Casters, this leaves me options to introduce the Magosi later on ( I intend to morph the Githyanki into this race. Also Bloodmages, Stormsingers, Shadowbinders, warlocks, maegi, etc… can be introduced as "monsters / npc's".
- Third With regard to Divine classes. Clerics are of any new faith but Druids may only follow the old gods of the Drowned one.
- Healing kits can be employed by anyone with heal ranks and heal 4hp/lvl per 8hr rest and full days rest is times two. This was done to make non healers capable of surviving. Also I hate it when the PC's stop to rest in the middle of a game just to boost HP's.
In addition to these rules I have tailored Westeros with the following racial changes;
- Aerendal - Westerlanders such as the Lannisters - Pathfinder Elves.
- Durvoki - The Vale of Arryn - Pathfinder Dwarves but slightly taller favoring bald heads and facial hair, Tattoos mark a Durvokians status the more tattooed the older or favored the Durvokian is.
- Mountain Tribes are Bugbear, Goblin, Ettin, Hill Giant, etc. pushed to the mountains by the Durvokian conquest. (not necessarily evil and Durvoki are not necessarily good)
- Andal - Pathfinder human.
- Dothraki - Pathfinder Orcs - horsemen plains riders - think Mongol Orc.
- Dornish - Pathfinder Halfling, Gnomes - with darker skin and desert flavor. These will be some of the most notable Cavaliers as north of Dorne Knights and Paladins are more common.
Other things of note;
Ghoul is a template and can be transmitted similarly to Pathfinder Lycanthropy. The Starks and some of their bannermen are werewolves but this is hereditary not Lycanthropy.
Barbarians are found north of the wall.
Knightnood, Cavalier, Paladin, are all prestige classes. Rules are the same for Cavalier and Paladin but they are simply not called such until knighted or similarly ordained.
There are three moons - Anake the white moon, Ceres the red moon, and Belior the dark moon. each moon orbits on different cycles with two concordances per year. This keeps time moving for the commoner and allows the seasonal swings to follow the long cycle. In addition each moon hold sway over different magics.
Months are 30 days and the moon cycles are 30, 20, and 45 days. Month names are; Maiden, Secundis, Trine, Quaterna, Quint, Hexad, Septenarius, Octanid, Enead, Decadus, Ellefne, and Terminus. probably lame but keeps player from asking "what month is it like in real world time".
Days of the week are: Smith's day, Warrior's day, Old Crone's Day, Day of the Mother, Day of the Father, Maiden's day, and All Saints Day. The Stranger has no day named.
Other monsters - well since your in Westeros Andals are the most significant "monster" but in addition to what I listed above there are;
- fey (children of the forest) extremely rare.
- Goblinkind and Barghest
- Dire wolves, lycanthropes
- Vampire (the Brotherhood) Think good aligned vampire. very different indeed.
- Valaryians might come back as vampire bad aligned I haven't decided yet.
- Ghoul-touched, undead (white walkers)
- dragons come back
- githyanki (magosi)
- pretty much any other race of creature that you can fit in logically.
The best way is to not use Pathfinder at all (though E6 is a nice back up).
Go get a game that is actually designed to be played in a low-magic environment. Personally, my favorite RPG is Savage Worlds, and I've played in a Savage Worlds game set in Westeros.
There's also a Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying Game made by Green Ronin, and it's pretty decent. I wouldn't consider it one of the top 5 best RPGs or anything, but I'd rank it as better than Pathfinder.
I'd agree with mplindustries...
grab the green ronin game and spend a day learning it.
If you want to play a "game of thrones" game, the intrigue needs to be every bit as important to the story as some guy swinging a sword. SIFRP incorporates rules for a character that is based around intrigue, and incompetent in combat, and still allows that character to be fun, and mechanically shine in encounters.
The 'intrigue combat' mechanic is far superior to Pathfinder's handful of social skills for resolving social engagements.
I ran one game of this, and it was amusing to watch the look on a player's face when he came to a realization. He built his soldier in SIFRP just like he'd build a pathfinder character, (dump int/wis/chr), when he tried to ignore his stats and roll-play his way through an 'information gathering' scene he was dumbfounded to find that the character he has build couldn't talk a commoner out of a piece of useful information and that crippling your character socially... was actually crippling.
If you have players that really like Game of Thrones, run the actual game, it will be more fun for everyone.
If you have players that don't... don't try to force it into Pathfinder, you will be dissatisfied with the outcome, and they will likely resent you and game of thrones a bit for intruding on their D&D.
No, actually they're the ones who asked ME to do this grittier, darker, "game of thrones" like campaign. And its not in the game of thrones/song of ice and fire universe, just in one thats similar. World creating is a big part of why i like to dm, so I figured to make the whole experience enjoyable for me, I'm making my own world, just with the GoT flavor. (in the sense that there's low magic, darker themes, and and an environment/setting that's more like our world in the dark ages plus elves, dwarves, orcs, and such). They also say they want a Firefly feel to it, with a crew (obviously on a regular sea ship, not a space ship) and episodic adventures based on criminal activities. (smuggleing and what not. the "CG" side of crime if you will) I'm thinking E6, with slow progression leveling, and with restrictions on classes. PCs can only play Fighters, Rogues, Monks, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers. That way no one can cast spells before 4th level. (I might also allow them to multi class into an alchemist or bard at 4th level as well although i'm not sure yet)
No, actually they're the ones who asked ME to do this grittier, darker, "game of thrones" like campaign. And its not in the game of thrones/song of ice and fire universe, just in one thats similar. World creating is a big part of why i like to dm, so I figured to make the whole experience enjoyable for me, I'm making my own world, just with the GoT flavor. (in the sense that there's low magic, darker themes, and and an environment/setting that's more like our world in the dark ages plus elves, dwarves, orcs, and such). They also say they want a Firefly feel to it, with a crew (obviously on a regular sea ship, not a space ship) and episodic adventures based on criminal activities. (smuggleing and what not. the "CG" side of crime if you will) I'm thinking E6, with slow progression leveling, and with restrictions on classes. PCs can only play Fighters, Rogues, Monks, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers. That way no one can cast spells before 4th level. (I might also allow them to multi class into an alchemist or bard at 4th level as well although i'm not sure yet)
With those kind of class restrictions you will have trouble having the party function normally at low levels. Specifically around healing magic. You could simply not have encounters as often (having one or two, and then having days between the next dangerous situation so they can heal naturally) or you could make some kind of other healing available (4E healing surges might help). I say this because I assume in a GoT setting you dont want cure wands and potions lying all over hte place.
That said, you might want to consider allowing the alchemist as one of initial classes. Maybe requiring them to take the Chirurgeon archetype or infusion at 1st level. That would at least provide some assistance, as well as the all important lesser restoration. There is plenty of precedent in GoT for such a character (dragons fire, the potions and draughts the maesters make etc). So it could work, and allow the party just enough magic to function in pathfinder without being really overt. Paladin might work also, but thats a tough sell for a firefly style game.
I would not worry about healing magic too much. It gets a lot less dark and gritty when everyone can just heal up between encounters. Healing should take longer and the healing skill becomes more useful. You'll need to allow for natural healing of ability drain, energy drain, etc. I think the Conan RPG covered natural healing very well. I really can't recommend it enough if you want to run a dark and gritty type of campaign. There's a lot of rules and ideas you can borrow and use without too much difficulty, since its also based on 3.5 rules like Pathfinder.
Yeah I agree. I want them to feel a realistic fear of fights, and a realistic need for strategy. Wounds will last a long time. And good point, I'll take a look into the conan RPG then
Yeah I agree. I want them to feel a realistic fear of fights, and a realistic need for strategy. Wounds will last a long time. And good point, I'll take a look into the conan RPG then
Thats fine, but it messes with certain base assumptions of the game. Like 3-4 encounters per day. That isnt possible without healing magic. This means that your party will have to actively avoid most encounters. Which is fine. BUT it means that per day abilities (like spells, ki, smites) dont have to be stretched as far, allowing for more 'novaing' or using lots of powerful abilities to blow through encounters. Almost every class except for the straight fighter and rogue have per day abilities that will go up in value if you can recover hit points to extend the adventuring day.
Well i'm planning on a lot of role playing/skill encounters. Some of the missions may require a lot of fighting, but then they may not have to fight for a days after. It's episodic and they travel on a boat, so there'll be a good amount of downtime between missions, some of which are more based off of stealth, political maneuvering, and investigations.
Have there be a constant disjoining effect in the world. As a result, no magical item less powerful than major items can exist for longer than a day. Remove the 9-level casters, replacing Wizard with Alchemist and Magus and Cleric with Inquisitor. Look through the class archetypes, I believe there is a spell-less ranger and paladin, there may be others.
Use Evil Lincoln's Strain/Injury rules, except when an Injury is dealt, have the character also take a point of physical Ability drain (their choice).