Red Dragon

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Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 33 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 Organized Play characters.




Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm hoping this will be a short thread, but I noticed something on HeroLab and I'm trying to figure out if it's something dumb that HeroLab is doing, or if it's a rule that I missed. I think either are equally likely.

On Herolab, under each of my 10th lvl Rogue's individual weapon entries, there is a note:

"Situational bonuses and penalties:
Opportune Backstab:
-2 penalty on triggered attack when using Opportune Backstab"

What is this about? Reading Opportune Backstab is reads:

"Trigger: A creature within your melee reach is hit by a melee attack from one of your allies.
When your enemy is hit by your ally, you capitalize upon the distraction. Make a Strike against the triggering creature."

That's it. So, I'm wondering where HeroLab is getting that note about the -2 to hit with Opportune Backstab. P2E is very good about making a rule in one place and then never referencing it again, like we're all going to remember every situational rule every time, so that seems equally likely as HeroLab just having a weird bug, but I'd appreciate if anybody knows if there's something I'm missing.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have a character that I am playing and I'm debating what to take at 8th level for his Class Feat. He is a Human Rogue (Thief) with a Beastmaster dedication

At this point he has:

1 - Twin-Feint
1 - You're Next (from Natural Ambition)
2 - Beastmaster Dedication
4 - Mature Beastmaster Companion
6 - Gang Up

For his 8th level feat, should I take Opportune Backstab -OR- Incredible Beastmaster Companion?

The animal companion is a wolf, so I would go with Nimble advancement, if I go that way.

At 10th level I can't not take Precise Debilitation, so whichever I don't take now, I'll likely take at 12th, but that's 4 levels of adventuring we have to survive.

Any constructive advice is appreciated!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was looking at making a fighter who punches, grapples, etc. Why would someone take the Monk dedication over the Martial Artist Dedication and vice versa. They look pretty similar. So similar that I wonder why they wasted the space making the Martial Artist at all.

Does anybody have any thoughts as to why you would take one over the other?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, I apologize if I've missed it, but I don't see anything that would give rules for jumping off of something and being caught. For example:

During Encounter mode, Character A climbs down a 60 foot rope to the bottom of a dry well. Character B cannot climb a rope, not being trained in Athletics. If Character B simply jumped into the well, they would take 30 damage (distance fallen/2) and land prone at the bottom of the well.

Are there rules for Character B jumping down and Character A catching them? Since it would be on Character B's turn, would that be Character A's reaction for the round? Would either character take damage? If so, who and how much?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As the Playtest gets closer, and I am setting up my Playtest games, I realize that I don't think I've seen anywhere that it has been explicitly stated how many players the PF2 Playtest is supposed to be for. I would assume that it is for four PCs and a DM, but is that correct? Will playing with three or five PCs make a huge difference?

I can only imagine that a group's perception of the challenge level of the adventure or power level of a character is going to be skewed by adding in 25% more or working with 33% less PC power than intended. It's hard to gauge the validity of feedback when everybody is playing in a different way while, at the same time, it could be hard to see certain glaring weaknesses that might only be exposed when you add or subtract a player, like so many of us do in our regular games.

I guess it will all come down to the feedback form. If a DM runs a group of six halfling barbarians, that seems like something Paizo should consider when evaluating their feedback.

Paizo staff: How structured are you making the playtest and feedback?

Other players: How many people are going to be in the group you are going to playtest with? Do you already know that your group is going to be weird in some way? Does your group have (as mine did in college) that player that is going to take one level of every class? Are you going to have nobody playing a rogue?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a disclaimer, the following post is about the Mass Combat Rules as presented in the Kingmaker Adventure Path as well as the revised Mass Combat rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG compatible Book of the River Nations. As someone who has both played with the Mass Combat rules as well as is a DM in the process of running the Kingmaker AP, I have some issues with the system, many of which I'm sure you out there have had as well. I also know that there are similar posts out there, but this is my take on the system. For the purposes of my post, I have made the following assumptions:

Assumption 1: The most effective way to increase the stats of a unit for the least amount of cost/consumption is to either add more soldiers to the unit, or make the unit up out of higher level soldiers

Assumption 2: Your DM is using the size of your nation to limit the number of soldiers you can raise. Common sense would dictate that a nation of 100,000 people which can conscript its inhabitants probably has, at best, a standing military of 10,000 soldiers. For comparison, the US has about 1% of its citizens in the armed forces.

For those of you not familiar with the AP or the Mass Combat rules, here is a short list of terms that you should know. Everybody else can skip down to the meat:

CR - Challenge Rating
BP - Build Points. 1 BP is roughly equal to 2-4 thousand gp
OM - Offensive Modifier. Works very much like a character's BAB
DV - Defensive Value. Works like a character's AC
Consumption - Amount of money, in BP, that it costs to keep an army in the field. This is paid weekly when the army is active and monthly when the army is in reserve

The Meat

Okay, so, I've thinking about Mass Combat as written and I thought that the following made no sense:

100 lvl 3 fighters - CR 2 / 11 HP / OM +2 / DV 12 / Cost to Raise 1 BP / Consumption 1 BP
200 lvl 3 fighters - CR 4 / 22 HP / OM +4 / DV 14 / Cost to Raise 2 BP / Consumption 2 BP

100 lvl 3 fighters w/ magic weapons & armor - CR 2 / 11 HP / OM +4 / DV 14 / Cost to Raise 66 BP / Consumption 66 BP
200 lvl 3 fighters w/ magic weapons & armor - CR 4 / 22 HP / OM +6 / DV 16 / Cost to Raise 67 BP / Consumption 67 BP

100 lvl 3 fighters w/ heavy horse mounts - CR 3 / 16 HP / OM +5 / DV 15 / Cost to Raise 1.5 BP / Consumption 1.5 BP
200 lvl 3 fighters w/ heavy horse mounts - CR 5 / 27 HP / OM +7 / DV 17 / Cost to Raise 2.5 BP / Consumption 2.5 BP

I think I've finally figured out both a.) why this is so out of whack and b.) what you can do to fix it

a.) Why This is Out of Whack

All standard armies without resources (as well as mounted armies) derive HP, Attack, Defense, and Cost/Consumption from the CR of the unit
HP = average HP x CR
OM = CR
DV = 10 + CR
Cost/Consumption = CR/2

in this way, a +2 bonus to OM AND DV AND 7-13 HP = 1 BP to raise and maintain

Magic Weapons (and all other Resources besides mounts) have absolutely no basis for any cost increase.
Is +2 to OM and DV really worth 65 BP? By the above, you should be able to get 130 OM, DV, and 455-845 HP for 65 BP.
In a role-playing sense, does it make any sense that it costs the same to maintain a magic sword as it does to enchant a magic sword? Are they re-enchanting them every week or month?
Does it make any sense that equipping 1 soldier with a magic sword costs the same as equipping 2000 soldiers with magic swords?

b.) What You Can Do to Fix It

I think the disconnect comes in two places: same cost for different army sizes and Consumption

b-1.) Same Cost for Different Army Sizes

For this, I would recommend saying that the listed cost to give the resource to the army as well as maintain that resource is for a Medium Army (100 soldiers).
In this way, equipping 100 soldiers with magic swords would cost 50 BP, equipping 50 would cost 25 BP, equipping 1000 would cost 500 BP, etc. I would also not let this cause any resource's cost to fall below 1 BP.

b-2) Consumption

To me, it never made any sense for it to have the same cost to enchant a magic sword as it does to maintain a magic sword. How many of you have played games with characters with magic weapons? I'm guessing plenty. In how many of those games did your characters have to pay 2000gp a week to keep your +1 sword working like a +1 sword? I'm guessing nobody.

That being said, I accept the fact that equipping 100 soldiers with +1 swords and +1 armor is expensive. In gp, that's around 3k gp a soldier. If we say that a BP is worth somewhere between 2k-4k gp, then 65 BP is about the right amount to equip 100 men with magic weapons and armor.

Now, how do we balance the Consumption to satisfy the game balance of having magic equipment without breaking the suspension of disbelief? in the above model, +2 OM and DV should cost about 1 BP in upkeep. However, the only time a player is really going to use Resources that give them a direct bonus to OM or DV is when they can't just get it by adding more soldiers to a unit. With that in mind, I'm comfortable for Masterwork or Magic Weapons to cost a bit more than that, since you can use them to beef up your army past what the population limits of your nation would allow. After thinking about it, I believe that upkeep should be the bonus to your DV or OM that the resource provides divided by 2, but modified by how useful the resource is.

In the following, I've gone over every resource and given what I think the Cost/Consumption should be and why (Consumptions with an * are explained in the text):

Fortification Builders - Cost 2 BP/Consumption 0 BP - These are guys who get to the battle early and use axes and shovels to dig in and fortify a defensive position. While it does provide a +2 bonus to DV, it does so only if the unit doesn't use all of its movement (situational). Also, you're already spending about 6k on shovels, axes, and training. Situational bonus plus expensive axes equals no Consumption.

Improved Weapons - Cost 5 BP/Consumption 1 BP* - Masterwork weapons grant a +1 to OM. This is good all of the time. I would say this has an Consumption cost of 1 BP for every 200 men equipped in this way, but no less than 1 BP. Alternatively, if a unit had both Improved Weapons AND Improved Armor, the the combined Consumption cost is 1 BP per 100 soldiers.

Improved Armor - Cost 3 BP/Consumption 1 BP* - Masterwork armor grants a +1 to DV. This is also good all of the time. As above, I would say this has an Consumption cost of 1 BP for every 200 men equipped in this way, but no less than 1 BP. Alternatively, if a unit had both Improved Weapons AND Improved Armor, the the combined Consumption cost is 1 BP per 100 soldiers.

Magic Weapons - Cost 50 BP/Consumption 1 BP - Magic weapons grant a +2 bonus to OM. Again, this is always good. Since it gives +2 to OM, I'm comfortable with it costing half of that in Consumption.

Magic Armor - Cost 15 BP/Consumption 1 BP - Again, magic armor grants a constant +2 DV. +2 DV = 1 BP.

Healing Potions - Cost 10 BP/Consumption 0 or 5 or 10 BP* - In the text it states that soldiers equipped with healing potions can forego an attack turn to heal themselves, up to twice a battle. Since it's not like healing potions go bad, I would say that a unit with this ability retains it with no Consumption cost until it uses the ability in battle. Once it uses the ability in battle, the until can return to a city with the requisite buildings to restore either one (5 BP) or two (10 BP) uses of this ability, up to a maximum of two uses. This also means that, if a unit uses this ability once in a battle, it can only use it once more in subsequent battles until it replenishes its stock of potions.

Mounts - Cost CR/2 BP/Consumption CR/2 BP + 2 - Of all of the resources, I believe this to be the most vaguely written AND the text as written doesn't match the sample armies in the stat blocks. I would make it read thusly: Add the CR of the riders to the CR of the mounts to get the mounted unit's CR. All values derived from CR use this combined CR. Mounted units gain an additional +2 to OM and DV. They also cost an additional 2 Consumption. Ex. 100 Lvl 4 Fighters (CR 3) mounted on Heavy Warhorses (CR 1) would have a CR of 4 (CR 3 + CR 1), 22 HP (5.5 HP for d10s x CR 4), OM +6 (CR 4 + 2 for being mounted), DV 16 (10 + CR 4 + 2 for being mounted), and a Consumption of 4 BP (CR 4 / 2 + 2 for being mounted).

Poison - Cost 6 BP/Consumption 0 or 3 or 6 BP* - Just like healing potions, poison doesn't need to be replaced just because it's Monday. I would limit poison to 2 uses per battle and structure replacement just like healing.

Ranged Weapons - Cost 2 BP/Consumption 1 BP - While ranged weapons don't add any specific increase to OM or DV, they do allow a unit to participate in an entire round of combat that it couldn't have otherwise. That makes it worth an additional 1 Consumption in my book. Chalk it up to arrows replaced after target practice.

Shields - Cost 1 BP/Consumption 0 or 1 BP* - Shields give a +2 DV against ranged combat. While it is a +2, it's only for one round of combat. If the opposing army doesn't have range, it never even comes into effect. Because it is so limited in when it provides a bonus, if ever, I wouldn't make this resource cost any Consumption. That being said, if you REALLY want to make shields cost Consumption, I would say that the shields provide the +2 DV, but are rendered useless after providing the bonus and must be re-bought, like potions and poisons.

Ships - Cost 10 BP/Consumption 1 BP - Like ranged weapons, this resource can give access to a type of combat that would otherwise be impossible, or even be used to bypass a city's walls (since you can't build city walls on the water border of a district). The +4 DV is tempered by the fact that these are useless in hexes with no water access. I'd divide the usual DV bonus/2 in half again, getting 1 BP Consumption, considering the situational usefulness of ships.

Siege Engines - Cost 15 BP/Consumption 2 BP - Siege engines not only give a +2 OM bonus, they also destroy the fortification bonus that city walls and castles provide! I'd give it 1 Consumption for the flat +2 OM bonus and another 1 Consumption for the ability to go full defense and whittle away an entrenched army's fortification, whether you actually do damage to them or not.

I hope this was helpful to those of you who are struggling with what to do with Mass Combat in your game. There are other issues that I have with the Mass Combat system as written, but, if response to this is favorable, I will address them in a future post.

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