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Hell yes it is! You are going to be lagging badly behind in terms of spell levels available as it is, this leaves you just one level behind in terms of caster level. I'd recommend taking the magical knack trait as well, that will allow you to et one of your casting classes up to your character level. TBH the Mystic Theurge route is sadly a weak sauce one. What it could do with is a feat or feat chain that can boost not just the casting levels but the level dependent other features of the two originating classes - I've played with one that boosts the non-spell-casting abilities of the base classes by one level for every two levels of spellcasting you gain from them, and it worked OK - it meant your channelling and free spells added to spell-book didn't stall out completely.
Interesting debate. What a lot of people like (currently) about Pathfinder that I talk to is the amount of flexibility in the system. That they can build what they want, not what the system cares to offer them. They don;t get this from 5e or 4e. Also, there is a huge, huge restricting factor that I haven't seen mentioned (yet) in the comments here (mind you I only skim read the first and last pages): Backward compatibility. Remember that Paizo's bread and butter is NOT selling rules, it's selling adventures. They need a rule set with which those adventures are compatible, so you won't see a new version of Pathfinder that isn't roughly compatible with the current version any less than Pathfinder is compatible with 3.5. End of. Yes, rules bloat is a thing. But re-consolidating and re-indexing the existing rules is a more likely prospect than an entire new edition.
Nutter sends his appologies, he has been having a rough time of late, but will stick with the game.
My question is: Do you have experience with characters who (quite literally) needed to be dragged into adventuring? I'm not mad or anything like that, I'm just confused and I don't want more occasions where my character has to crowbar his into participating. Then don't. If the player has created a character with no motivation to adventure with the party, then you have a player problem. Sometimes it's deliberate, a way for the player to passive-aggressively get attention or to hijack the adventure and make it all about their character, and sometimes the player just didn't think when they created the character, or sometimes they get so into their "realistic" character they can't find a way out again. That's why campaign traits are so useful, because they generate a reason for the PCs to be together and adventure, and help set the scene. When I run homebrew, I always task the players with finding a reason for their PCs to adventure together, either by selecting a background trait or incorporating into their backstory just who and what they are, and any important events in their pasts that have bearing. However, one thing it isn't is your problem. Unless you enjoy putting lots of extra work into getting his PC to tag along and risk his life "Think of the stories you could tell, and the songs you could sing!" then don't compromise your own enjoyment of the game. Ultimately it is his character and he has to bear responsibility for creating it; not everyone wants to play Harvests & Haywains living ordinary lives in a fantasy world.
For me, the psionics system from Dreamscarred Press is a must-have in my games. I also incorporate my own fixes for the Monk class, but that's a whole other story.
I for one haven't given up on the fighter, Shaman! Seriously, the fighter can do his job, although he takes more skill to build than it first appears. His damage output can equal the barbarian's and he gets other advantages too. Is he a weak class? Yes, insofar as he has more weaknesses, or weaknesses that take more care to cover, than other classes. But the fighter has only ever done one thing in the game, and that's fight. Unchained did the fighter some favours with the stamina feats, which were cool, but really the whole Unchained project lost out from a failure to actually address what class problems actually were before trying to fix them. The fighter's problems are his weaknesses: poor saves, poor skills. Everything else works just fine. You can kind of get around these in the game, but it would be nice for the fighter to have good Will saves (all that training takes self-discipline!) and 4+Int skill ranks per level. The sorcerer's issues are similar, although Paizo fixed a fair few of them from 3e. 4+Int skill ranks would be good, along with a few more class skills. The bloodlines could be improved with a few save bonuses as well.
I have another potential player, if at is acceptable Thom?
Question, Thom: Do you want me to stat out Amanda?
'Tis looking good!
Quite aware - Lydia's not particularly picky on such matters. A little more background:
Lydia's grandfather was something of a local hero (as much as a shifter could be) following his own service in the long war. Her parents also did their stint of military service, her mother mustering out when she opted to bear children, her father retiring only when invalided out. A few years ago, while Lydia was away fighting near the Cyre border, Thrane launched a deep raid into Brelish territory around the Blackcaps, seeking to draw off that nations forces from their usual confrontation around the Brey River. The largely cavalry force made for Halfwhistle, destroying and pillaging surrounding villages and hamlets on the way. Lydia's home village, Whistleroot (which had a relatively large shifter population), was in the path of the raiders just a few miles shy of the town, and her father organised a defence to ambush the invaders and keep them occupied while the village's young, old, and infirm fled to safety in Halfwhistle. Her grandfather and sister were among those forced to flee, her father and mother led the ambush. The action was more successful than they dared hope; fighting for their homes and led by veterans the villagers un-horsed many of the Thranish knights and pinned them down in savage hand-to-hand fighting. But although they badly mauled the raiders, they were quickly surrounded and massacred and Whistleroot was burned - the knights neither demanded nor gave any quarter, and those that attempted to surrender were killed on the spot. It probably didn't help that most of the villagers fighting were shifters. After the slaughter the Thranish leader realised he had too few men to attack Halfwhistle, a well-defended town, and that he had just handed any further defenders a powerful incentive to fight. However with many of their horses slain by the traps laid by the defenders their retreat would be a slow one. They opted to retreat, only to be hunted down by local militia forces. Thrane later declared the raid to be a "bandit" event and alternately blamed the leader for the massacre to Brelish envoys, while at home claiming him a martyr killed by lycanthropes. Lydia's grandsire, Illthorn, has blamed himself for the loss of his daughter and her husband despite the fact that he was too infirm to fight himself. He raised Lydia's sister in Halfwhistle until she returned from the war, then handed the responsibility to her and took himself off into the wilds alone. Further relationships: Culpepper - was a friend of her grandfather Illthorn, who features in some of his stories. Lydia likes him but doesn't get too close as she doesn't want to be reminded of her family's tragedy. Amanda is always spending time with the old man, however, learning about family and events that she never knew. Sally Turner - Lydia has relied on Sally to help raise Amanda, as she often has to go hunting and foraging for game or materials for her bow-making and fletching. In return she has helped Sally with tasks around the farm. Jerrik Butterfield - Lydia sells her wares through Jerrik; hides to local tanners, arrows and bows to hunters or the militia, etc. She gets on well with him, but doesn't stay long.
I was thinking more very big, barbed, pointy hook.... Edit: Actually, having a sister would give Lydia a very solid reason to stay near Halfwhistle. This could work.
The version of kalashtar on HeroLab is as follows: Type: Humanoid; Subtype: Kalashtar
No ability score bonus.
Dabbler, what do you think about the unchained monk? It's a Brawler with some fancy tricks. As a playable class it's more playable than the core monk, but I have to confess that I was very disappointed that it didn't really address the monk's major problems and it added to some of them (the ki costs for some of the abilities is staggering, and ki was a sparse resource to begin with). It's better in combat than a core monk with the new style tricks, but at the expense of the good will save which makes no sense at all. It's not really as good as a full martial class, IMHO, but it's closer than the core monk. In a low-magic gear setting it could work OK compared to the rest of the party. I'd say my monk was better balanced and strong enough to stand up in a party, but then I am biased :p
OK, so re-rolling for 2nd level: LOL, so typical, that means 2 thanks to Thoms minimums.
Good point, Treppa. Can you clarify Thom?
Rolling HP for Lydia:
OK, this is a bit of a problem, less HP than HeroLab lets you start with...
No, and I will definitely be playing Lydia!
I like the "concept twist", and the idea of all characters being veterans and survivors of some action is very beguiling. We'll have to see, though - not everyone may want to play a veteran...but it is definitely worth bearing in mind.
Treppa, I was thinking that whichever character option you choose as all our characters are veterans we can be known to one another, either distantly or closely as you prefer. Noting that we have no arcane caster I have a back-up prepared... Artak Melantine ir'Tharashk: ...a dragonmarked scion of House Tharashk he is as unlike the typical bearer of the Mark of Finding as it is possible to get. Artak is a human wizard, a born academic who is far more comfortable using his Mark of Finding to locate a lost book in the library than actually going out into the world and prospecting. Sadly, he is not to get his way, as his house - though despairing of him becoming a true Finder - have relegated him to Xanderar's hinterlands to at least achieve something "useful" from their point of view.
Lydia's my preferred character, I think, so I'll stat her out.
Good idea! I think there is a great device in the Last War to create background material - everyone would be effected in some way or another, after all. Some characters would be veterans, others may have lost loved ones, or been effected in other ways. Members of the Dragonmarked Houses may have feuded or profited from the war, guild members could have lost everything or gained much. Both of the current ideas I have started fleshing out were veterans of the war. First, a shifter who began by serving as a scout in Breland's armies (possibly under Lord Winehorn?). During the war her druidic calling was triggered and she's become a fusion of that conflict between the militant and spiritual callings of her nature. Lydia's a restless soul, always wanting to see the other side of the next hill, beyond the next mountain.
Second, a commander who had seen (and done) too much to forget, but was so talented that the Elan took notice. The prospect of starting over with fresh memories was an offer she could not refuse, and she has re-dedicated herself to martial perfection. Taramantha is a purist, wishing to hone her martial skill and maintain her honour beyond all else.
That's pretty much the Hunter, yes - a sort of druid-lite with a bit of ranger thrown in. Casts druid/ranger spells like a bard. It's a nice "all rounder" class that works well in a wilderness setting. I'm working on an archer build that will act as a hand back-up divine caster and support fighter.
Looks interesting. I've played Eberron a few times, it's a VERY fun setting, one of my favourites. I've also a few different character concepts...not sure which I would like to try yet, suffice to say any could fill a role in a party, I'll see what everyone else comes up with. Some (well all right, all) of my ideas involve some non-core classes:
Well, the campaign has paused after the final confrontation with the BBEG... Kingmaker Spoilers: The party pressed ahead to the third floor, and encountered the variant medusa there. She proved troublesome for the party, and they retreated to return after the rogue got stoned. When they did, they found she had also prepared and was accompanied by two more de-faced nymphs. While their abilities were troublesome, the party stomped them all fairly conclusively, and discovered the garden and the library. The magus' research in the library revealed the fable and the routes into it, and the party went for it big time. They found a prepared and buffed Nyrissa, along with the last pair of de-faced nymphs and Nyrissa's current lover, a khellid bloodrager. I added the latter to counter the party's larger numbers and greater action economy. Nyrissa was able to deflect and defray a lot of attacks at first until the bard and cleric started spamming Greater Dispel Magic at her. She neutralized the magus (and later the cleric) with a maze spell, and the ranger was blinded (unfortunately with a great Perception and a Seeking bow this didn't make a lot of difference). The monk countered the bloodrager very effectively, although the latter did get some hits on the party. When the magus popped back into the room she was distracted enough for the monk to close and get some hits, but her nemesis was the ranger who used instant enemy to deliver at least 2/3 of the damage. For all her buffs and spells she just couldn't keep up with the damage output. She died of multiple arrows before the luckless magus could get in more than a few attacks.
Re-written yesterday's lost entry! ”Kingmaker Spoilers”: The adventure continued with three more encounters. The party, having explored most of the ground floor, forayed up the grand staircase from the Throne Room to the great dining room. Because there were six PCs I gave them three barb-tongued wyverns to fight rather than two. The monk did some awesome acrobatics to flank the wyverns, but the lion’s share of the killing came down to the ranger and the cleric who was buffed to heaven and back. The halfling did a record 200+ non-lethal damage to one wyvern to finish the battle. The party moved on from them, exploring the North wing of the upstairs and finding the Attic, where the devourers got the drop on them by pretending to be corpses. Well almost – the cleric channeled as a matter of course when he saw bones, and the devourers managed a round or two of attacks with their slay living attacks (the only attacks that had a chance of hitting most of the party); the halfling took some serious damage, most of the party managed their saves if they were hit. The bard used her mass cure spells, and the ranger did what she did best. The magus, left out of the previous fight, got in some good attacks with Briar before the monk finished his enemy (the last standing) with a single blow, the monk’s only contribution. Last encounter was with the de-faced nymphs. I had the party encounter four in the private ballroom with more filtering in each round. The magus was able to deal some area effect damage to them despite being blinded thanks to Briar guiding his aim, but the ranger was rather hampered. The monk also failed a save and was blinded, and several party members suffered ability score drain. Unfortunately for the nymphs in the ballroom, the monk was very hampered thanks to her Blind Fight feat, and she went through the nymphs like a hot knife through butter.
I hate connection resets.
Yesterday's session: Kingmaker Spoilers: Last night's session was an epic clash of foes, that ran in an...interesting way. The party were on the verge of the Throne Room, and I prepared the encounter accordingly. Because they would have overwhelmed the Wriggling Man, I added the Knurley Witch who had survived the earlier encounter. Both of them were buffed and had summons in place. The party had used divination to prepare and went in fully buffed, and the cleric summoned a pair of bone devils to lead the way. This proved amusing, given the use of an Astral Deva by the Wriggling Man. The Knurley Witch started out on the Bridge in the Throne Room, and summoned a pair of Vrocks and an ankylosaurus (the latter appeared on the ground as the cleric entered). The bone devils ran into the astral deva, who dispelled one with his first strike while warning off the party. The cleric hit the room with invisibility purge then killed the anylosaur with a cold ice strike. The Knurley Witch then put a wall of stone across the doorway behind the cleric, hoping to slow the rest of the party and deal with them piecemeal. This fell afoul of the Magus and his disintegrate spell, he just made another doorway. The ranger went through on her wolf, and shot the Wriggling Man full of arrows (I hate Clustered Shots). The monk followed, using Spider Climb to shoot up a wall and attack the Knurley Witch with Quivering Palm...and she failed her save, the monk's single punch bursting her heart. The Bard followed through and hit the Wriggling Man with a sonic attack that failed against his energy protection. With the witch down, the Wriggling Man used a reverse gravity to shake the party up and knock most of them prone, followed by a quickened fireball to soften them up. The Ranger managed a single shot, the magus cut loose with several attacks the Wriggling Man's defences foiled, while the Astral Deva beat down the last bone devil. The monk - with his Spider Climb he wasn't phased by the gravity changes - made a great leap to the flying Wriggling Man, and grappled him. Not the smartest of ideas, but the Bard then added silence on the monk to cripple the Wriggling Man's spell-casting ability. The Wriggling Man then simply engulfed the monk, inflicting damage, and tossed a disintegrate from his staff at the ranger (and missed). The fight ended as the monk literally punched his way out of the Wriggling Man, shredding him. Analysis: the ranger inflicted the lion's share of the damage on the Wriggling Man, the monk's DR-bypass helped when he started hitting but wasn't pivotal. Of more importance was his accuracy in striking the Knurly Witch, and a healthy dose of luck.
That was the whole point of coming out with Pathfinder UnChained!, so that players and DMs now have an alternate set of the characters that needed either the most help, or a massive swing with the nerfbat, a.k.a. the Summoner. IMO they failed with the monk then. The core monk suffered from a set of problems: MAD - it is easily the MADest class in the game. Unchained did not address this.
This had the effect of making a class that could be good defensively moderately awful at offence. All of Paizo's fixes - like the Qingong and the Unchained monk - have focussed on fixing the last item. At no point have they seriously addressed the first two. The Unchained Monk had an improved flurry (which wasn't, actually, a problem) and the style strikes helped, but the ki powers were largely a hit with a nerf-bat as the majority cost way too much ki, and all the "always active" powers had gone. Then they nerfed Will saves as well, which just does not sit for a supposed disciplined, spiritually strong warrior. So the monk was a little stronger offensively, and weaker defensively, so it remained a weak class overall.
Monday's session: Kingmaker Spoilers: The party took a rest before pressing on, exploring the north-east wing of the House at the edge of Time, encountering the weeping demons, the salon of sighs and the dancing bear. They decided to keep the latter and display it in their capital. They then moved to the south-east wing, the servant's wing, and encountered the ghosts there. This became a much more problematic encounter for them as the party were split between four rooms as the ghosts moved to attack as if they had a clear field, while the party was obstructed by walls and doors. The magus found a simple solution: disintegrate the wall, and it's not a problem. Whereas before the monk had ruled the ghosts, this time they spread out and attacked the entire party. Quite a few were effected by their corrupting touch attack and many were flanked. The surprise hero of the session was the bard who cut loose with some mass cure spells that were able to target everyone, friend and foe alike. The monk, magus, and ranger dished out some very respectable damage, and the ghosts were laid to rest without too much ado. Observations: the monk was more effective against these enemies thanks to their low AC and her stellar touch AC. She took down approximately one a turn and took not hits - they were an ideal foe for her to fight. That said she still didn't churn through them as fast as the ranger for whom they were a favoured enemy.
It has been since 3.X, anyway. The original monk from AD&D was very much what it wanted to be, and very good at it. The 3.X monk...wasn't. It was, in retrospect, designed to suck. WotC used the trading card concept of making some options deliberately worse or better than others, and the monk was designed to look good and be awful. The Pathfinder monk was a slight improvement, but still sucked. There has been a chorus of "Fix the Monk!" from players ever since, with Paizo...not fixing the monk. Then they released Unchained...which certainly unchained the monk, but sadly from it's original concepts of a spiritual warrior (Why nerf the Will save? Why????) rather from the constraints of sucking. Yes, they made it more powerful in one respect, but less in another, and they made the ki-powers demand WAY too much ki from a class that didn't have enough to start with. In short, take something weak: make it stronger one way, make it weaker another, and what do you have? Something that still sucks, but in a different way. I've tried working with the original monk, on the basis that if you use the Qingong archetype it's not too bad and is fixable, and my results and play-tests are here if anyone is interested. The salient points are: Use Wisdom for attack rolls with monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
I've tested up to 16th level in an ongoing game, and it works really well. Not too powerful, but just enough to make the monk effective, accurate, and give him a place in the party.
Another session done...interesting results this time! Kingmaker Spoilers: The game continued... Descending from the gate-house, the party were confronted with the zomock in the inner courtyard, causing them some consternation. The zomock turned the courtyard into difficult terrain with plant growth and entangle, and has already got one of the trees in the courtyard animated and ready to move. The ranger cast gravity bow while her wolf was entangled, and the monk used her Dimensional Agility to avoid the treacherous courtyard and attack the zomock from behind, trying to stagger it (it saved). The magus swooped on it, casting dimensional blade he took a swipe at it with Briar, which obligingly cast blight on the plant. This made the zomock angry, and it breathed on the party (except for the monk), which took the magus down to 2hp. It's tree attacked the monk but she tripped it as it advanced. Then the ranger started shooting....182 damage in one attack. The monk and magus finished off the zomock and treant, and the party pressed on. They investigated the stable, and then approached the main entrance and carefully entered. The suspicious cleric cast true seeing just as the ankous in the first room attacked - first thing they did was plunge the party into deeper darkness, then attacked. The darkness didn't help them that much - the magus had problems, but the monk had Blind Fight and the ranger a Seeking bow, and the cleric had just cast true seeing. That said, the ankous (given the party strength I used 6 rather than 4) were much tougher than the zomock. After the bard dispelled their darkness they started hitting the party with circle of death every round and one risked a prismatic spray. I operate a house-rule that "death" effects reduce you to -{spell level} hp and dying rather than instant kill, so in spite of the magus, monk, and ranger (twice) failing their saves, (and the ranger's wolf to a poison ray), the cleric was able to keep the party fighting with repeated channels. The monk, ranger, and magus worked through the ankous, steadily cutting them down while the monk, cleric, and magus had AC that the fey had problems touching. A long, tough fight that proved the monk is NOT invulnerable...
I will when I get a chance, 0puk0. Just completed another session... Kingmaker Spoilers: Last session, the party ran into the Knurly Witch. This was a lot more talking rather then fighting, and when the fighting did break out the witch very quickly did a vanishing act. This session, with all the Glades completed, the party pressed on to the House at the End of Time. They approached the lake and started across the bridge when Tarlaxian attacked them. The Linnorm leapt onto the bridge as the rogue and ranger were checking for traps, and challenged the party. The rogue tried to bluff, but the linnorm was basically too dumb to fool, and didn't fall for the Yolonia Bridge Health & Safety Inspection routine. Instead, he breathed on the party with one head and bit the ranger with the other. The rogue flunked his reflex save and took a lot of damage, mainly in shame. The magus was also badly burned by the acid, as was the bard. Tarlaxian also bit the ranger, who fluffed his Fort save and started taking serious damage from the poison. The linnorm then flew up to ensure the party couldn't reach him easily. The monk decided to fix this by using the castle gatehouse as a vault platform - he raced up to it, and used his spider climb ability to get onto the top floor where he discovered the ghostly guards who naturally attacked him. Tarlaxian took some damage off the ranger's arrows, but the cleric's cold ice strike failed against his SR and the magus was more interested in retreating. The cleric's heal on the bard worked fine, and the bard started spamming some mass cure light wounds and bardic performance. On round two Tarlaxian swooped back in to attack the bard and the ranger's wolf, biting both. The ranger got a clear shot and drilled arrows into the linnorm. The cleric had to hit him with restoration to stop the poison damage killing him, while the monk was joined by the halfling. The ghostly guards had great problems hitting the two, and they had a merry old time hitting back. The magus got back into the action by hammering home a pair of lightning bolts and the linnorm now looked very unwell. Turning on the ranger and cleric, the linnorm hit them both acid breath again from one head, following it up with a flurry of attacks on the ranger. The cleric went down to breath damage, and the ranger was bloodied but finished the linnorm off while the bard healed up the cleric. The magus went after the gatehouse and as more ghostly guards entered the fray against the monk as he fireballed the ghosts. The rogue exited the fight as his HP were looking very shaky, and he regrouped with the rest of the party. The cleric made it in to finish the fight against the ghosts, but the ranger and monk did the lion's share of the heavy lifting.
Yes, I was referring to PbP, but I have used Fantasy Grounds before with another group. My current issue is time - I am GMing two groups already, I just do not have the time to run a third game.
Another session done on Monday night! Kingmaker spoilers: The current set of encounters were in effect hit-point piñatas for the party. Because I had six players present I increased the numbers somewhat, but even so the monsters in question weren't seriously challenging. First stop was the Shunned Falls, and I gave them three winged owlbears rather than two. The party took some hits, but the party had them all down within three rounds, with the alchemist and ranger inclicting the lion's share of the damage. Second stop was the mandragora village, and I gave them a pair of giant mandragora to fight. However the low AC meant the monk's flurry of blows was absolutely devastating. I think this is the first time his damage output has peaked consistently over the ranger's. However these were enemies designed to be easy to hit but able to take a lot of hits....and between them both, the ranger and the monk get a LOT of hits! My prior experience of monks is that they are not good at this "grinding" part of the game, but in this case the problem seemed nicely avoided.
Sadly I find on-line games take too long for play-tests.
It's worth mentioning that most of the ways that they upgraded Rogues did it in such a way as to discourage multi-classing -- or at least to make it no more attractive than it started. When I rebuilt my PFS Rogue -- who had been created with the intention of being a Rogue/Witch/Arcane Trickster -- I found that following my original plan would cause me to miss out on most of the new toys. *And* that I could now do most of the things I wanted within a single-class build. (Thank you, upgraded Minor & Major Magic.) On the flip side, Weapon Finesse as a free feat at 1st level is worth a dip for some - not even the Swashbuckler got that. So while you cannot dip the unchained rogue the same way you can still dip it. I bring this up because it is clear from the way that they designed the Unchained Monk that a lot of what they were looking at was changing the way it interacted with multi-classing synergies. If the Unchained Monk is a straight side-grade in results, but done in such away that it requires/encourages less dipping in other classes, I think the Design Team would consider that to be an upgrade. It's as much about simplification as power level. (As also evidenced by the Unchained Barbarian, which was never advertised as anything other than a sidegrade for simplification's sake.) Yes, but they didn't make the monk a class you wouldn't dip out of any the less (in fact that weak Will save makes a cleric dip more attractive than before), just one slightly less likely to be dipped into. Unless you want that extra attack, as a militant cleric might using Crusader's Flurry... So I don't think that they really avoided the dipping "problem" and certainly while the unchained monk is an improvement on the core monk offensively, it still hangs on to the core monk's original combat problems of MAD and lack of enhancement on the unarmed strike, and it nerfs one of their best features (all good saves). I never saw the monk's flurry-of-blows as being anything other than an issue with the iterative attack system, not as an issue in and of itself. I just can't play this monk, because he's not a monk - he's a Brawler with ki.
Precisely. It would seem that in spite of hundreds of threads pointing that the monk was a weak class, and why, Paizo completely missed it and keep missing it. It's like the monk is their blind-spot. Thankfully it's the only major blind-spot, but it does beggar belief that after all these years they STILL can't wrap their heads around the concept or the mechanics to produce a monk that is both viable and thematic.
I'd need players willing to play those characters - people play best what they want to play, after all.
Another session down! Kingmaker Spoilers: Present for this session were the monk, ranger, cleric, rogue, magus, and bard. Encounter #1: The party retraced their steps, deciding (based on the map in Zuddigar's Picnic) to go to the swamp next, as they felt they knew what to expect. Because of the party size I had them encounter four rather than three mire-worms, and they spotted their wakes approaching as they water-walked across the swamp. They had no time to summon giant blackbirds to eat the worms before they were on them... The worms attacked from beneath the water, going for bite-and-swallow attacks on the party. The attacks on the monk and the magus were failures, but on the mounted cleric and ranger it was a different story: both were hit and engulfed! The monk used his kusarigama to make a strip attempt on the cleric (who voluntarily failed his save) and used Ki-Throw to deposit him next to the monk, along with the halfling rogue (invisible) hanging onto him. It was a very cool move. The ranger's large wolf was bitten and only a grease spell from the bard enabled him to avoid being swallowed while the ranger sprang free. The wolf was OK, but the cleric's clockwork charger was basically reduced to cogs and springs. In subsequent rounds the magus scored a 20 with briar and decapitated a worm, while the monk beat his half to death and stunned it, letting the cleric kill-steal. The halfling also pulled a kill-steal on the ranger's target that he'd filled with arrows. The last worm was facing everyone and didn't last long. The party took some damage, but were essentially not too troubled. Then I rolled for the stability of the realm, and Thousandbreaths collapsed into Thousand Voices! Encounter #2: With the realm now returned to the prime material plane, travel became much faster and the party air walked to the Tower. Ilthuliak saw them coming and wisely started preparing. The party used the gaseous form aspect of air-walk to infiltrate the tower, and as they did the dragon cast acid fog to hamper them. The halfling rogue slipped through it to see the dragon's hoard...and got bitten by an invisible dragon for nearly 60 damage. At this point the party realised it was crunch time. They slipped in and the cleric annulled the air walk spell and cast invisibility purge while the halfling use his helm of teleportation to get out of the immediate danger area. The dragon attacked the cleric and took him to serious negatives. As the ranger's arrows bounced off the dragon's defences, they realised that this fight would not be easy. Thankfully the magus realised on a Spellcraft check that the dragon had buffs, and unleashed a brace of dispel magics (one with a Quicken rod) to remove eight points of dragon AC. The monk rushed in but still couldn't connect with the AC40, while it fell to the bard to rush over to the cleric and start healing him back up. The dragon was caught between the ranger's wolf and the monk, but wasn't unduly worried even when the halfling raced back into the fray with a critical hit with vampiric touch and managed to restore most of his missing hit points. With bardic performance active the party started to get hits, but not enough to really worry the dragon that was lashing back and giving as good as it got. Even the magus joining the fray with a dimensional blade spell cast on Briar didn't phase her much. Right up until the rogue took a step back and pulled his bludgeoning trick, and dealt 92 temporary damage in one hit. When the cleric got up and unleashed a cold ice strike Ilthuliak was reduced to 50 hit points and decided now was a good time to retreat and re-think her strategy. Unfortunately when she tried to leave, magus and monk got AoO's and their luck abruptly changed: with two hits, including a failed save to a stunning fist, Ilthuliak was dropped and quickly received a coup-de-grace. This dragon made the party sweat for the first time in a while, and they at one point were seriously discussing retreat until they realised they could de-buff the dragon. While the monk and ranger are usually the damage-dealers, it was the rogue and magus that carried this fight...
To be honest I'm stunned that it's 2015 and Pathfinder people [be they Paizo staff or forumposters] are still concerned about the dippability of a class. I agree, after some of the archetypes made for dipping, it is as I described above, shutting the monastery door after the MoMS has done a runner.
I don't really want to hate on the class, because its obvious that a ton of effort was put into it, at least trying to deal with some of the problems the old class had. On the other hand though, it really feels like the Unchained Monk took a step forward, and then took a step back again, the class hasn't really "improved" from where it was, and it still lacks its identity as a class. If you stick to paizo's ideal as to what a monk should be, then it comes up short, and if you go with an identity that various films give you, then well, you still come up short. Some of the changes were/are great, and I guess its still pretty mobile as a character, so its still got that cool niche, its just a little disappointing that the class itself didn't really improve very much from what it originally was. This....just this. Given Mark's earlier comments on this thread about how Jason's first crack at the Unchained Monk was substantially weaker and he had to be argued into upgrading it into the final version, I think the problem isn't so much that Paizo has no idea how to improve the monk as it is that what they have in mind for an improved monk is far different from what the players wanted. I would say that they didn't really have a clear concept of a monk - or if they did, they divorced it completely from the mechanics they were designing.
Tels, I'm blushing...but thank you. For those interested I have posted up the complete play-test I have been running here. To be (slightly) fair to the devs, there might be rules about them not checking out people's homebrew similar to how lots of show writers aren't allowed to read fanfiction. The last thing they need is any "Paizo stole my homebrew!" drama. Even when just about all of us put in "Paizo are free to use this" in our text? Also, I took part in some Dreamscarred Press development, and they used some of my ideas, and I consider that a compliment. That aside, I do suspect that part of why Paizo was so hush-hush about the content of Unchained and didn't do any public playtesting for it was that they knew there would be at least some backlash from people who wanted bigger changes. Honestly, I think the thing that bugs me most about the variant classes in Unchained is that they just show how much Paizo is chained to their own rigid paradigms when it comes to class design. Actually, I think that's WHY they should have done a public play-test. That way they could have at least looked at the criticisms before they put anything in stone.
They don't - yet! But as I said, we agreed that as a standard action would be a single attack in future we'd only apply the sneak attack bonus once in future. Edit: yes, 48d6, you are right!
He has sniper goggles. Each shuriken would be 1d8 fire damage, +6d6+12 sneak attack, and he had eight shuriken. My bad, that should be 8d8+42d6+96 After discussion, we agreed from now on it will be 8d8+6d6+12 which is still perfectly respectable for 15th level on a single action.
So the unchained rogue has dex to hit and damage essentially built into the class. The swashbuckler can pull off the same thing very easily. If I'm not mistaken bards can as well. What would be so game breaking to allow monks access to some monk only feats or abilities that allowed the same with dex or even wisdom? Maybe not built in, but options in the class for monk weapons and unarmed strikes. Yep, archers are a beast in Pathfinder. The monk isn't, so archers get wisdom to hit and damage....huh? In my monk changes I am play-testing I gave the monk wisdom-to-hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. That makes dipping monk for a cleric a poor option as few clerics are going to be specialising in a monk weapon (unless it's a cleric of Irori, in which case it's perfectly thematic). Works just fine. I am less worried about wisdom-to-damage. Wisdom-to-hit really reduced MAD for the monk. It didn't make things like Strength dump-stats, but it left the monk with only one attribute score they had to really max out on, while others they wanted to keep middling-to-good, which is the level most other mildly MAD classes are at.
The rogue had concealment (he was hiding behind a gravestone) and acted in the surprise round. As an arcane trickster he can cast greater invisibility, but he wasn't using it this time. Even the rogue player agreed that throwing eight fiery shuriken as a single standard action really should count as a single attack and not eight attacks. If he threw a single shuriken (fiery or otherwise) per attack as a full round attack, I would gladly allow sneak attack on each separate attack. However as he has buffs to his sneak attack to the tune of +2 damage per die, it meant he inflicted 8d8+42d6+84 damage as a standard action... I let him get it this time around, but we all agreed that if you are throwing all eight projectiles as a standard action you can't aim all eight individually but instead throw them as a single attack, so you only get one application of sneak attack. Will I let the Unchained rogue in? Gladly. I do not have a problem with the unchained rogue or with skill unlocks.
Out of curiosity, how often do you expect to need to move to your next opponent using flying kick? Because that's how often Furious Focus is just wasted space on the character sheet, even beyond how switching to an unarmed strike will impact on DPR. Situational, really, you can't factor for it easily. Odds are on a weapon-using monk may not go for flying kick for just this reason. However, attacking without a -3 penalty makes up in part for the loss of those extra attacks, and you can take FF much earlier than you can gain flying kick. And as for the damage comparison, you left out that the first Dragon Style attack actually clocks in at 25 x 1.1 = 27.5 (vs the armed monk's 28.2) and the first attack can carry a +3d6 energy damage rider. Actually I DID run for Dragon Style and those are not the numbers I got, maybe I miscalculated...regardless, that again locks the monk into a style chain. The monks that do not follow that style chain are still left in the dust, as are those that try to minimise MAD by going for dex-builds. Assuming Pummeling Style and a Monk's Robe this becomes much closer, due to the vastly higher crit chances. The math on crit chances for pummeling style is a bit complicated for me, but it gets better the higher a level you achieve, and is pretty definitionally better than a 17-20 generally speaking (and I think goes above a 40% chance as early as 11th level). I suspect that will make up for a lot, and while not a necessary part of all builds, is perhaps a better comparison. I factored in the monk's robe but I deliberately left out Styles as it's hard to factor them in - which style works depends on circumstances. I did include numbers for Dragon Style in a later post, but it was still behind the armed monk. I agree, Pummelling Style changed a lot for the monk, but it was a single style that precluded other thematic styles. Maybe they should have phrased flying kick to be a little more like it...
If you ignore the bonus to hit, yes. But +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage in the DPR stakes, and the Furious Focus makes a difference too. Elemental damage is again situational (that's why it got excluded from the DPR Olympics), it's easy to find enemies that either are immune or that buff up. The difference in cost between the AoMF and the weapon are small - 16K for the amulet, 18K for the weapon. I do take your point that it's possible to build a monk that minimizes the difference between armed and unarmed to being very small with the right feat combo - but I hope you take mines that the armed monk is less feat intensive and inherently easier to build. That alone makes the monk 'favour' armed builds.
Another session completed! Kingmaker Spoilers: Sometimes my players take the "rule of cool" and hijack it, taking it to Cuba and beyond. Tonight was a case in point... As the party explored Thousandbreaths, they discovered some details of how the glades worked. They reached the Frozen Graveyard, and cautiously explored: the monk, ranger (and her wolf), and rogue moved ahead of the party. When the four-armed frost giant burst out of the mausoleum he leapt upon them. First off the ranger got a critical hit with her attack of opportunity with her bow, and inflicted 60 damage. The monk attempted a trip, and failed. The rogue/arcane trickster, who had been hiding behind a gravestone, attacked from cover, and unleashed eight fiery shuriken, complete with sneak attack... Now I have researched and found that with scorching ray you don't get a sneak attack on every ray. After the attack was complete and the frost giant was a pair of smoking boots, I told the rogue player that in all seriousness I would have to apply that rule to fiery shuriken as well. I let him get away with it for this one time...but the rest of the players, and he, agreed that 418 damage was a bit much for one standard action. The party tried to settle down for a rest in the mausoleum, but the catfolk bard was visited by the nightmare rook, which put paid to that idea. Irritated the party decided to deal with the rook and set off to it's glade. This encounter was a little more fun for all the party. As they entered it's glade and approached, the ranger and his wolf hung back. This wasn't a smart idea as the rook targeted these two before the ranger could start shooting, and swept them up in it's claws. The rogue transported himself and the monk onto the rook, but they failed to gain purchase - the rogue did grab the ranger so that if dropped his ring of feather falling could save them both. The cleric summoned a celestial roc and an air-to-air skirmish began. Meanshile the alchemist supplied what can only be described as anti-air fire by transferring his bomb effects to arrow and crossbow bolt heads. The clerics continued summonings soon brought down the rook along with the flak. At last the party could get a night of sleep...
Although true it's not like the unarmed version is extremely far behind the weapon version, and all the style strikes require unarmed attacks - so that would mess with the weapon users karma a bit. Roughly 40% behind, +1 worse to hit, and the weapon gets an attack without the penalty. That's pretty significant in my book. Also, the style strikes require flurry of blows - but, for example, flying kick might require one unarmed attack, but the rest could be made armed. I agree it's an issue but not a huge one. Remember the basis of combat is hit and do damage to the other guy, the more you hit, the more damage you do, the better the result for you. Instead of Dragon Style I think that Tiger Style might be better by negating the need to take an attack penalty to Power Attack. Yes, but that gives you a penalty to AC instead, and on a strength-focussed monk that's going to hurt. Great if you can be sure of finishing the other guy so he can't hit you back, but otherwise...ouch!
Why repeat numbers we've crunched a hundred times before if nothing has changed? For example, the idea that "armed monks rather than unarmed monks [are] mechanically superior." I'm the only one who has posted anything even close to an actual side-by-side comparison, and the back-of-the-envelope calculations didn't really seem to support the "armed is better" hypothesis. Certainly, here’s the back of my envelope: Let’s assume a 10th level monk with 20 Strength (16 +2 levels +2 Belt) and Power Attacking. Assume 1/3 WBL for weapon, which is 20,000gp.Unarmed monk is attacking for 1d10 base damage, and can afford a +2 AoMF. That gives him +7 static bonus, then Power Attack for +6, and assuming Improved Critical a 10% threat chance. That gives us 18.5 x 1.1 = 20.35 before we factor odds to hit.
So quite a difference. Even if the unarmed monk uses a monk’s robe (damage to 2d6), and a feat chain like Dragon Style to add 1.5x strength bonus damage, he caps at 22 x 1.1 = 24.2. The armed monk is both more accurate and does more damage.
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