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Howdy all,
I am trying to come up with a build idea for a level 6 campaign, any core race 25 point Epic Fantasy point buy. Any official Paizo published books are OK to use.
My problem is that it is a shop game with a group of very varied experience and skill at the game, and due to the size of the group 7-8 players, I am sort of in an assistant GM role to help keep things running smoothly. Now I am looking for a character that can be more of a party support role without being a dominant force in the group.
The group as it stands, if everyone shows up, will consist of a Samurai, Magus, Ranger(TWF), Rogue, Cleric, Alchemist and one undecided, plus whatever I make. I figured a Bard would fit that idea well, but alas I have little experience building one as I haven't played one beyond an NPC in a very long time.
I would be willing to consider another class so long as the concept was more support and not overshadowing/overpowering.
Thanks,
~Foms
i think bard is a great choice for what you're describing. personally, i'd go with a halfling (good racials, including +1 hit and AC), maybe something like this:
CG, Halfling, Bard 6
Str 12-2race (2); Dex 15+2race+1@4 (7); con 12 (2); int 14 (5); wis 12 (2); cha 15+2race (7); or, more simply-
Str 10; Dex 18; Con 12; Int 14; Wis 12; Cha 17
traits: helpful (+4 when using aid another); fate's favored (+1 to all luck bonuses)
feats: skill focus [UMD], weapon finesse, lingering performance
skills: perform dance, and oratory or singing (will cover anything you need for bardic performances, and have good Versatile Performance skills)
escape artist, stealth,
spellcraft, UMD,
linguistics, and 1 rank in 6 knowledges
this should let you pick up the slack for any role that is missing in a given session (except melee, but it looks like that's pretty covered). when things are going well- use bardic performance (every third round) to buff the party, use aid another to help the damage dealers hit better or take less damage, and cast spells/use items as necessary. try to keep a good stock of wands and scrolls and if the cleric is down or absent you can heal, if the alchemist is down/missing you can cast some utility spells or do some AoE damage, and so on. you'll also have the 'face' role covered (which should work well because social interactions are usually where the GM will need the least assistance).
I have an amazing Halfling Archeologist (with dips in a couple of things) that is absolutely ideal for your situation and would allow you to support and even enhance a party's experiences when desired and fade easily into the background when not. His abilities and skills tend to fit the 'niches' that other casual players often ignore or overlook.
Drop me a line and I'll shoot you out the build, or I'll post it here later when I get the chance.
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Thanks for the replies folks... sadly my "bardic knowledge" has been a bit lacking as I generally play either frontline melee, sorcerers or druids. Guess I need to broaden my studies here :P
@Crosswind: by Core I meant CRB, my bad. The DM is not currently allowing any advanced race choices (And while I could probably manage it as I am married to the DM :P, it wouldn't exactly be fair to the others at the table)
@Wiggs: I would be interested in checking it out as I wasn't sure how much support the Archaeologist would be with the loss of some of the core abilities. Especially since we have a rogue in the group.
@Nate: Great points on the UMD and the party face bit... the group really has neither, with the Cleric being the closest to a party Face. (The character I am "retiring" to slip into the support role is a completely tact free zone of a 7 charisma, Scarred, Mammoth Lord Barbarian who believes that head butts and intimidation are valid forms of diplomacy :P)
Oh, I forgot to add that the character will be taking the "Anti-hero" option from the Hero Point system, to get the bonus feat. In case that makes a difference in any feat trees.
You could always check out this guide to bards. It only has stuff for bards using the Core rule book, but should still be useful.
A careful reading of the Flagbearer feat shows that you cannot attach it to a longspear and get the bonus. You must carry the flag in a free hand.
Howdy all,
I am trying to come up with a build idea for a level 6 campaign, any core race 25 point Epic Fantasy point buy. Any official Paizo published books are OK to use.
My problem is that it is a shop game with a group of very varied experience and skill at the game, and due to the size of the group 7-8 players, I am sort of in an assistant GM role to help keep things running smoothly. Now I am looking for a character that can be more of a party support role without being a dominant force in the group.
The group as it stands, if everyone shows up, will consist of a Samurai, Magus, Ranger(TWF), Rogue, Cleric, Alchemist and one undecided, plus whatever I make. I figured a Bard would fit that idea well, but alas I have little experience building one as I haven't played one beyond an NPC in a very long time.
I would be willing to consider another class so long as the concept was more support and not overshadowing/overpowering.
Thanks,
~Foms
Hi Fomsie.
Bard is my favorite class and I have noticed you and I share a common trait, we don’t like builds that try to break the rules, so I hope I can help.
I think a bard in your group is perfect and you should pick a Bard that has “inspire courage” since so many in your group are characters that would benefit from a boost to attack and damage.
Inspire courage + haste + good hope is the best buff combination in the game.
The bard spell list is very nice so you want a race that can pick the human favored option of getting extra spells known, so Human, Half-elves or Half-Orc.
I would pick human since they get a bonus feat (and bonus skill each level) and Bards are feat starved.
If you want to be a support character and still be great at doing some melee damage from time to time Arcane Duelist is a very good class. If you want to focus more on support I would stick with the Core bard or any archetype that keeps inspire courage.
versatile performance is usually one of the weaker abilities, but when you start your character at level 6 (or later) it is actually a good ability, so you might want to keep it.
Bardic Knowledge is also very nice so is Soothing Performance. Soothing Performance is especially good if you have a barbarian in the group.
Inspire greatness is weak so stay away from it, but it can be put to good use if someone has to trigger a trap. A tactic I’ve used myself.
Songhealer is a good back up healer that still is a great buffer.
The Sound Striker is a nice archetype, depending on how your DM read the rules. There are many questions regarding Weird Words. Talk to your GM on how she rules it.
Thundercaller is another great archetype depending on how the GW read the rules. Talk to her.
I would probably just stick to the Core bard unless you want to be a melee bard and a buffer in that case Arcane Duelist is rock solid.
Keep away from extra performance. You won’t need that feet from level 7 o 8. Lingering Performance is a far better feat, but you probably won't need it when you hit level 1, 8 or possibly 9. Especially if your charisma is high.
If you play no use a bow, don’t waste a feat on longbow, use a composite short bow or a cross-bow.
Swift Aid and Discordant Voice are nice feast if all you want to do is buff. I suspect that Swift Aid should grant +2 and that +1 is an error. If your GM says it is +1 only, don’t take the feat.
Arcane strike is a great feat.
Now a question to your DM, is this OK?:
“When you get a Rod of Quicken Metamagic, Lesser, you can actually use your move action to perform the Dirge of Doom, then use your Swift for a quickened spell (like Slow) and cast regularly (perhaps Glitterdust?) - all with -2 to save DC's, all for one round of Bardic Perform. “
According to James Jacobs who designed the class, this is ok, but talk to your DM.
A common tactic from my bard would be Dirge of Doom cast save or suck spell and swap to inspire courage.
Some general stuff before I offer you a built.
Talk to your DM regarding how abilities work. What is OK what is not. Talk to you DM and post her reply so I know what goes.
Do you use traits? If yes, how many do you get.
Am I reading you right that you start at level 6?
What is your starting wealth?
How high up are you going to play?
Do you use/want dump-stats? Lot of players dump the Bards wisdom to 8 or even 7. Do you want that?
I’m going to offer a build using a Human, Half-elves or Half-Orc. Probably a human. Is that fine by you?
What do you want from your bard? Pure buff or someone that use melee or archery as well?
My advice is that you go for a buffer with a just a few archer feats. Players tend to forget to invest in archer feats, so it is good to have at least on in the group that can use a ranged weapon.
Edit:
Some more questions:
How detailed to your what the build to be?
Spells known?
Skill ranks?
Kind Regards :)
The group as it stands, if everyone shows up, will consist of a Samurai, Magus, Ranger(TWF), Rogue, Cleric, Alchemist and one undecided, plus whatever I make.
I can easily count 4 meleers in your group, potentially more, so I suggest playing an archer.
A human archer (vanilla) bard build is pretty straightforward and mechanically strong. Follow Treantmonk's guide (Azten's link) and add a few non-core feats: Clustered Shots and Discordant Voice come to my mind.
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Hello again folks,
Thanks for the replies... have had me reading more and more Bard stuff, sheesh! ;)
@Zark: I have come to the same conclusion that either the standard Bard or maybe the Arcane Duelist are the best ways to go, and I am really thinking the standard may be best because it will allow me to fill in all of the support/out of combat Face/Knowledge gaps the party may have... a couple of the players will be playing their first Pathfinder session (having a little previous D&D experience in the past)... and I want to be able to help the party along without becoming a dominant force in any given scene/encounter. In regards to your questions Tark;
Reasonable interpretations of the rules is OK... if it seems common sense/spirit of the game, it is allowed.
Two Traits at 1st level
6th Level character
Wealth by level per the CRB
We are playing assorted modules with the group so we will keep going for a while anyway (I am retiring my Barbarian to allow for other players to have a more dominant role in the combat)
I would prefer no dump stats if possible, I don't need to be super optimized, just efficient to help the group.
I get 1 bonus feat at 1st level for taking the Anti Hero option from the Hero Point system.
My plan is to probably be a Cha/Dex based approach and use ranged attacks to fill in gaps during combat. While I don't want a lack luster character, I really am aiming for one that will seem to be doing very little directly, but will be enhancing the party and their chances of success... basically trying to help facilitate the enjoyment of the rest of the group, being able to be a benefit to them without taking the spotlight. If that makes any sense. Sort of an Elan from OotS... only not quite so dense :P
@Djelai: Yeah, there will be at least 3-4 melee (the Magus kind of forgets they are not just a wizard with poor spell selection sometimes :P)), so I don't really plan to be mixing it up much and will most likely go the ranged route.
Most likely a human bard though I am not married to the idea.
Thanks,
~Foms
Hello again folks,
Thanks for the replies... have had me reading more and more Bard stuff, sheesh! ;)
@Zark: I have come to the same conclusion that either the standard Bard or maybe the Arcane Duelist are the best ways to go, and I am really thinking the standard may be best because it will allow me to fill in all of the support/out of combat Face/Knowledge gaps the party may have... a couple of the players will be playing their first Pathfinder session (having a little previous D&D experience in the past)... and I want to be able to help the party along without becoming a dominant force in any given scene/encounter. In regards to your questions Tark;
Reasonable interpretations of the rules is OK... if it seems common sense/spirit of the game, it is allowed.
Two Traits at 1st level
6th Level character
Wealth by level per the CRB
We are playing assorted modules with the group so we will keep going for a while anyway (I am retiring my Barbarian to allow for other players to have a more dominant role in the combat)
I would prefer no dump stats if possible, I don't need to be super optimized, just efficient to help the group.
I get 1 bonus feat at 1st level for taking the Anti Hero option from the Hero Point system.My plan is to probably be a Cha/Dex based approach and use ranged attacks to fill in gaps during combat. While I don't want a lack luster character, I really am aiming for one that will seem to be doing very little directly, but will be enhancing the party and their chances of success... basically trying to help facilitate the enjoyment of the rest of the group, being able to be a benefit to them without taking the spotlight. If that makes any sense. Sort of an Elan from OotS... only not quite so dense :P
@Djelai: Yeah, there will be at least 3-4 melee (the Magus kind of forgets they are not just a wizard with poor spell selection sometimes :P)), so I don't really plan to be mixing it up much and will most likely go the ranged route.
Most likely a human bard though I am not married to the idea
OK. So an Archer. Good choice.
Want it to focus on dex or charisma or both?
Want bow or crossbow?
The crossbow is highly underrated. True you don’t get many shout but with Bracers of Falcon's Aim + improved crit you get a 17-20/x3. That is awesome with all the buffs a bard get (IC, Good Hope, Arcane strike, etc).
I have your bard/bards up within 10 hours :)
Stats:
Crossbow:
Str: 10
Dex: 19 (16+2+1)
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 12
Char: 16
Short bow:
Str: 13
Dex: 18 (15+2+1)
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 13
Char: 16
Or
Short bow:
Str: 12
Dex: 18 (15+2+1)
Con: 12
Wis: 12
Int: 12
Char: 16
Traits:
Reactionary - must have
Magical Knack - must have if you plan to multi-class.
Must have feats:
Precise Shot
Point-Blank Shot
Improved Initiative
Arcane Strike
Feat level 5:
Discordant Voice or rapid shot (or Rapid Reload if you use a crossbow).
At level 7 you really need Rapid Reload if you use a crossbow
Other Nice feats:
Harmonic Sage (depending on the campaign).
Deadly Aim
Many Shot
Cluster Shots
Improved Crit
Craft Wand or Craft Wondrous items.
Great Fortitude.
Skills:
Max out UMD, Perception and Perform - Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive)
Add some ranks in Perform - Act (Bluff, Disguise)
3 ranks in Acrobatics.
At level 10 you want to have maxed out Perform - Dance (Acrobatics, Fly). So start building the skill. 1 skill is enough at level 6 but start adding more skills into it during level 7-9.
At least 1 rank in Appraise, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, climb, Spellcraft and in all knowledge skill.
Add some ranks to stealh and pick two or three knowledge skills that you add more ranks to.
Spells: Treantmonk is OK, but you should get both heroism and Good hope. There are also a lot of really good new bard spells:
• Lot of nice spells in the APG, some of them:
• Feather Step: (1st level, immediate action) ignores effects of difficult terrain.
• Saving Finale: (1st level, immediate action) Subject rerolls failed saving throw.
• Gallant Inspiration: (2nd level, immediate action) +2d4 competence bonus to the attack roll or skill check retroactively
• Versatile Weapon: (2nd level) Weapon bypasses some DR.
• Purging Finale: (3rd level) remove cowering, dazzled, exhausted, paralyzed, shaken, or stunned condition.
• Feather Step, (3rd level) Mass: As feather step, but multiple creatures.
• Jester's Jaunt: (3rd level) Teleport target within 30 ft. of itself.
• Virtuoso Performance (4th level): Start a second bardic performance while maintaining the first.
Meta magic rods is a must. So is some scrolls and wands.
OK. So an Archer. Good choice.
Want it to focus on dex or charisma or both?
Want bow or crossbow?The crossbow is highly underrated. True you don’t get many shout but with Bracers of Falcon's Aim + improved crit you get a 17-20/x3. That is awesome with all the buffs a bard get (IC, Good Hope, Arcane strike, etc).
I have your bard/bards up within 10 hours :)
You're burning 2 feats on this.
A crossbowman that has point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim, arcane strike, rapid reload, and improved critical should be compared to a composite shortbowman with point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim, arcane strike, rapid shot, and manyshot. Two more top BAB arrows, even if one can't crit and must be fired at the same target as another arrow, are better than doubling your threat range compared to what a bowman gets from the same magic item.
And from levels 1 to 10 you either didn't have improved critical or were otherwise behind on archery feats.
The ones highly underrating crossbows are the ones who wrote the rules. There's no salvaging them RAW or RAI.
Crossbow does have its pros when you play a character with low Str and lots of buffs. That said, I never claimed the crossbow is better than the bow. Nor did I offer the Fomsie an archer.
Fomsie wanted a bard, not an über archer killing machine.
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Thanks Zark... the archer is sort of what I ended up with as is, with a few minor alterations!
As for the discussion/debate about what is or is not optimal or viable, or especially what I may or may not want beyond specifically what I asked for, can be discussed elsewhere, thanks. I asked for a specific concept build and specifically wanted to avoid a super optimized build. I just wanted a utility player to help support a group, and the bow build fits the bill pretty well.
Thanks Zark... the archer is sort of what I ended up with as is, with a few minor alterations!
As for the discussion/debate about what is or is not optimal or viable, or especially what I may or may not want beyond specifically what I asked for, can be discussed elsewhere, thanks. I asked for a specific concept build and specifically wanted to avoid a super optimized build. I just wanted a utility player to help support a group, and the bow build fits the bill pretty well.
Sorry about the thread jack.
I think your choice is a good one. Bow is easier to use, more powerful and usually more fun.
Would you mind sharing your build and sharing your experience playing a Bard?
Did you enjoy it? What was the most fun part and what was the most challenging part.
Did the rest of the gaming group enjoy your support?
BTW; Notice that even though your dex is higher than your charisma, perform - Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) lets you put ranks to fly even though you normally can’t.
Kind regards Zark.
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Heya Zark,
This is what I went with:
S 12
D 20 (15 +2 Racial +1 Level +2 Belt)
C 12
I 12
W 12
Ch 16
Traits:
Reactionary: +2 Init.
Military Veteran: +2 Survival, Survival becomes a class skill(this was for RP background)
Feats:
Pointblank Shot
Precise Shot
Arcane Strike
Lingering Performance
Rapid Shot
Skills:(I put all of my favored class options into skills for simplicity) Total Skill Points 36 +6 int +6 human +6 favored class
UMD 6
Perform: Comedy 6
Perform: Oratory 6
Perception 6
Stealth 6
Linguistics 6
Perform Dance 5
Kn: Arcana 1
Kn: Nature 1
Kn: Religion 1
Kn: Local 1
Kn: Dungeon 1
Kn: Planes 1
Kn: Geo 1
Acrobatics 1
Appraise 1
Climb 1
Escape 1
Spellcraft 1
Survival 1
At this point I did a lot of cover all bases skills, and use Comedy and Oratory as my Versatile Performance skills.
Spells:
Level 0
Detect magic
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Dancing Lights
Spark
Level 1
Charm Person
Grease
Saving Finale
Abundant Ammunition
Level 2
Allegro
Versatile Weapon
Glitterdust
Heroism
Gear: (I just went very basic to save time)
+2 Mithral Chain SHirt
+1 Composite Short Bow, Str 12
Ring of Protection +1
+2 Belt of Dexterity
Ioun Torch
+1 Cloak of resistance
Wand of Cure Light
Wand of Shield
Wand of Gravity Bow
and some potions and basic gear I think (doing most of this from memory and some scratch paper as I am not sure where the character sheet ended up :P)
The basic concept was a former soldier turned woodland bandit (sort of a Robin Hood idea) who uses a litany of deeds and epic poems to inspire allies and cutting remarks and slanderous humor to demoralize or enrage foes.
It went pretty well and ended up serving the role I wanted nicely. The host of skills allowed for filling almost every hole in the group, and the buffing helped make everyone else shine, while the little bits of utility and damage here and there helped as well, without taking too much of the spotlight.