andreww |
and the wizard will be unable to act due to frostbite (fatigued, shaken, sickened, entangled, dazed, and flat footed). That's IF he lives past the first round of combat too. ~500 dmg :)
You are using a level 1 spell so, even assuming you can ever actually make the attack, your DC is around:
10base +13int +2spell focus +2doubled spell focus from spell perfection +1level for DC28
Spell Perfection will allow you to apply Dazing for free. You are adding Rime and Sickening Spell so you only have 2 levels spare for Persistent even assuming you can afford all of the feats. DC28 rolling twice is not hard for a high level caster to make, especially as it is a Will save. Cassandra only fails on a 1.
Fatigued and sickened don't actually do very much. Entangled is negated by freedom of movement so the Daze element is the only relevant bit. No idea how you are applying Shaken, I assume some sort of intimidate build which sucks up even more feats.
Brotato |
"Oncoming_Storm wrote:And Vacuum always goes first, the Magus doesn't really have much going on for him here.Why does vacuum always go first? Kensai, certain clerics, and so the I all have the same ability I thought.
He doesn't. My statement of "always goes first" was only in reference to the Beastmass and vs One. Note that Vacuum was created specifically to handle the Beastmass, hence Jehova's focus on Mass Suffocation, since everything in Beastmass has to breathe. Obviously he's much less adept at handling other Beastmass contestants, as he wasn't designed with that in mind. Something similar could have been done with Imprisonment and he could be tweaked obviously to get a higher Init (he'd only need to get Improved Init from somewhere to go before the Magus), but that's getting into semantics. My only point about Vacuum was that (without the ioun stone that I always forget about) he would always beat One and can defeat all of Beastmass in a single day.
andreww |
Andreww, frostbite doesn't require a save. Please at least read the spells you're referring to before trying to break someone's argument
When you apply dazing spell to a spell you get a will save against the daze if the spell does not ordinarily allow one. Please read the feats you are using.
andreww |
The "one" becomes a lot more badass with UMD and scrolls of AMF. Don't try to fight magic users without them.
If by really badass do you mean really sad that the caster is entirely immune to the effect due to Arodens Spellbane and they are still killing you with instant conjurations while flying entirely out of your reach as you can no longer fly and your stats are awful as you tuned off all of your magical effects.
If that is what you mean then I totally agree with you.
insaneogeddon |
Is there a druid that can compete with the top optimized like vacuum? Or a cleric?
A witch with the death patron and the witch knife feat gets an extra 2 DC out of that sort of build and also has finger of death.
Also hexes and if a grave walker a 20 HD undead companion and an army.Would have to roll for initiative though !!
Trainwreck |
Not to mention a 20th level Wizard is going to contingency/teleport away if he loses initiative. You literally can't beat someone with that contingencies initiative roll and still be able to attack them.
As I read the description of the contingency spell, you cannot make it trigger by losing initiative.
"You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency."
"Your person" and "you dictate"-- both of these reference your character, not you the player. Your character isn't going to cast a spell that goes off "if I lose initiative" because your character doesn't know about initiative rolls. He's never seen dice being rolled to determine if he gets the jump on someone.
Tels |
Gregory Connolly wrote:Not to mention a 20th level Wizard is going to contingency/teleport away if he loses initiative. You literally can't beat someone with that contingencies initiative roll and still be able to attack them.As I read the description of the contingency spell, you cannot make it trigger by losing initiative.
"You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency."
"Your person" and "you dictate"-- both of these reference your character, not you the player. Your character isn't going to cast a spell that goes off "if I lose initiative" because your character doesn't know about initiative rolls. He's never seen dice being rolled to determine if he gets the jump on someone.
"If I get attacked, Contingency teleports me to my Tower before the attack connects."
Kobold Catgirl |
David_Bross wrote:The "one" becomes a lot more badass with UMD and scrolls of AMF. Don't try to fight magic users without them.If by really badass do you mean really sad that the caster is entirely immune to the effect due to Arodens Spellbane and they are still killing you with instant conjurations while flying entirely out of your reach as you can no longer fly and your stats are awful as you tuned off all of your magical effects.
If that is what you mean then I totally agree with you.
psst, i don't think that's what he means
Claxon |
Can we get back to the One vs Am discussion here?
However, sadly I think it will boil down essentially to what has been talked about all through the thread with the diviner wizards. Initiative. Whomever gets the first full attack between One and Am will probably win. Depending on the exact scenario setup it could go either way.
Don't forget one of the more important parts of AM's build is a flying high perception mount.
And that a full attack by either is likely to kill the opposing party...
And this kids, is why high level isn't fun.
Carmeilliken |
Mystically Inclined wrote:Does One have any recourse against wind wall? Other than approaching for melee?Wind Wall and Fickle Winds are beaten by spending 3 ki points on Trick Shot. That lets One full attack through total cover as long as there is an opening an arrow can pass around/through.
Wind Wall and Fickle Winds just deflect arrows, they don't provide Concealment... or do they? If I'm mistaken pleeeeeaaase correct me and I will eternally indebted to you! Reason why is because I'm running a ZAM in a one-shot campaign in a month and would like to know if he can beat out Fickle Winds as you said Trick Shot would.
Kobold Catgirl |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Assuming roughly similar modifiers, and assuming winning initiative guarantees victory...
AM INITIATIVE: 1d20 ⇒ 8
One Initiative: 1d20 ⇒ 15
That Other Guy Someone Dragged Into The Discussion Initiative: 1d20 ⇒ 18
Okay, Diviner wins. As you can see, the barbarian is a vastly less powerful class, and the monk is roughly 16% weaker than the diviner.
Daenar |
David_Bross wrote:The "one" becomes a lot more badass with UMD and scrolls of AMF. Don't try to fight magic users without them.If by really badass do you mean really sad that the caster is entirely immune to the effect due to Arodens Spellbane and they are still killing you with instant conjurations while flying entirely out of your reach as you can no longer fly and your stats are awful as you tuned off all of your magical effects.
If that is what you mean then I totally agree with you.
Whoa. You sound like a serious contender at a magic the gathering tournament...or a high ranking pvp'er in WoW... is pathfinder either one of those? Where is the roleplay here? This is also supposed to be a friendly discussion, so maybe lighten up a little.
Grizzly the Archer |
Both take reactionary, so those cancel out.
Barbarian dex probably no higher than 16 (for CAGM)
One dex no higher than 16
Both get belt of dex +6
Both get the ioun stone for +1
------
Main difference is that One gets improved initiative whereas ambarbarian doesn't. Unless he somehow gets it from somewhere else.
Final: One beats ambarbarians initiative by +4 when they get down to it. Unless somehow this changes, one should win out for the initiative roll roughly 20% of the time. Or something to that effect.
Imbicatus |
Imbicatus wrote:Wind Wall and Fickle Winds just deflect arrows, they don't provide Concealment... or do they? If I'm mistaken pleeeeeaaase correct me and I will eternally indebted to you! Reason why is because I'm running a ZAM in a one-shot campaign in a month and would like to know if he can beat out Fickle Winds as you said Trick Shot would.Mystically Inclined wrote:Does One have any recourse against wind wall? Other than approaching for melee?Wind Wall and Fickle Winds are beaten by spending 3 ki points on Trick Shot. That lets One full attack through total cover as long as there is an opening an arrow can pass around/through.
Wind Wall creates a physical wall of wind that deflects arrows passing through it. It's not total cover, but it behaves as if it is. If there is a path over or around the barrier created by wind wall then you can use the 3 ki point trick shot to shoot around the barrier. Concealment has nothing to do with it.
Kobold Catgirl |
andreww wrote:Whoa. You sound like a serious contender at a magic the gathering tournament...or a high ranking pvp'er in WoW... is pathfinder either one of those? Where is the roleplay here? This is also supposed to be a friendly discussion, so maybe lighten up a little.David_Bross wrote:The "one" becomes a lot more badass with UMD and scrolls of AMF. Don't try to fight magic users without them.If by really badass do you mean really sad that the caster is entirely immune to the effect due to Arodens Spellbane and they are still killing you with instant conjurations while flying entirely out of your reach as you can no longer fly and your stats are awful as you tuned off all of your magical effects.
If that is what you mean then I totally agree with you.
...what?
I mean, I do think it never hurts to lighten up in these arguments, but...what? Just coming out of nowhere and accusing the guy of being a roleplay-hating WoW PKer? This is an optimization thread. If you're looking for a roleplaying thread, go argue about paladins. :P
Daenar |
No, its a theorycrafting mental gymnastics thread, and to infer that the title of this thread means more than it says is on you. To imply that "advice" means only optimization, is purely a product of where your thought process is centered, imo. Lets not be too hasty with assumptions, accusations and inevitable counter accusations. No one is right or wrong nor do they have to be. This is just a place to present opinions. Mine, is that some ppl are turning a humorous discussion into forum poster vs poster because that is the mindset of some posters. While I find powerful builds interesting, I see no need to be hostile about which one is superior.
Carmeilliken |
Carmeilliken wrote:Wind Wall creates a physical wall of wind that deflects arrows passing through it. It's not total cover, but it behaves as if it is. If there is a path over or around the barrier created by wind wall then you can use the 3 ki point trick shot to shoot around the barrier. Concealment has nothing to do with it.Imbicatus wrote:Wind Wall and Fickle Winds just deflect arrows, they don't provide Concealment... or do they? If I'm mistaken pleeeeeaaase correct me and I will eternally indebted to you! Reason why is because I'm running a ZAM in a one-shot campaign in a month and would like to know if he can beat out Fickle Winds as you said Trick Shot would.Mystically Inclined wrote:Does One have any recourse against wind wall? Other than approaching for melee?Wind Wall and Fickle Winds are beaten by spending 3 ki points on Trick Shot. That lets One full attack through total cover as long as there is an opening an arrow can pass around/through.
(V-8 slap) ... Bingo! Thank you, Imbicatus. Sometimes the simplest of solutions eludes me.
andreww |
(V-8 slap) ... Bingo! Thank you, Imbicatus. Sometimes the simplest of solutions eludes me.
This doesn't quite work. trick Shot specifies that it allows you to ignore total cover, it doesn't say that you can send the arrow in whatever direction you want. Neither Wind Wall nor Fickle Winds provide total cover, the simply automatically negate archery attacks. As such a strict reading means trick shot does nothing for you. You could take a more liberal reading of trick and fickle winds still stops you as there is no indication that the cylinder of air is open at the top or bottom.
Crosswind |
Jehova's Mass Suffocation Diviner, Vacuum, kills One without taking a point of damage unless One rolls a 20 on his Fort save. (DC 47 Mass Suffocation)
Vacuum was able to complete the first Beastmass in a single day, without re-memorizing spells or taking a single point of damage. No other Beastmass contestant really comes close.
Limburger, who only fails that save on a roll of 3 or less, and bludgeons all the Beastmass challenges to death with punchification (only being hit by any of them on a natural 20), feels sad about being dismissed.
-Cross
Deadmanwalking |
Here's One, though I must admit that finding AM Barbarian as a completed build (as opposed to the basic idea) is a bit tricky.
Tels |
It looks like that particular one build isn't legal though. Especially the vows. Has anyone made an more updated or corrected version of that build?
One is legal, as far as I'm aware. What about him is illegal? Some things may have been errated since then, but I don't think anything has been made illegal.
Smug Narcissist |
Jehova's Mass Suffocation Diviner, Vacuum, kills One without taking a point of damage unless One rolls a 20 on his Fort save. (DC 47 Mass Suffocation)
Vacuum was able to complete the first Beastmass in a single day, without re-memorizing spells or taking a single point of damage. No other Beastmass contestant really comes close.
DC 47? With a Wizard? I'm afraid thats not possible. Best legit Wizard DC with necromancy would be 39 for a venerable Wizard with 20 starting Int.If you allow Spell Perfection to double the DC bonus from Greater Arcane Eldritch Heritage a 41 would be possible but I wouldn't allow that.
Maybe you can find a +1 racial bonus somewhere that I don't know about and maybe there's a trait somewhere that adds another +1 but 47 is most definetely wrong.
Also none of the builds presented here are anywhere near unbeatable. Not nagging but that Zen Archer isnt even that good haven't checked te full build but below +40 to-hit will need natural 20's to hit some 20thlevel charcters.
Deadmanwalking |
DC 47? With a Wizard? I'm afraid thats not possible. Best legit Wizard DC with necromancy would be 39 for a venerable Wizard with 20 starting Int.If you allow Spell Perfection to double the DC bonus from Greater Arcane Eldritch Heritage a 41 would be possible but I wouldn't allow that.
Here is the build. Seems legal, he just found a couple of Feats and an item that add more.
yumad |
Smug Narcissist wrote:DC 47? With a Wizard? I'm afraid thats not possible. Best legit Wizard DC with necromancy would be 39 for a venerable Wizard with 20 starting Int.If you allow Spell Perfection to double the DC bonus from Greater Arcane Eldritch Heritage a 41 would be possible but I wouldn't allow that.Here is the build. Seems legal, he just found a couple of Feats and an item that add more.
I believe one of the feat choices or the order of them are illegal and he loses a little bit to the DC there, plus some of the items are extremely specific like requiring a full moon or whatever.
Still not as cheesy as using an eidolon as a mount though, X vs AM BARBARIAN is actually a 1v2, not a 1v1.
andreww |
Smug Narcissist wrote:DC 47? With a Wizard? I'm afraid thats not possible. Best legit Wizard DC with necromancy would be 39 for a venerable Wizard with 20 starting Int.If you allow Spell Perfection to double the DC bonus from Greater Arcane Eldritch Heritage a 41 would be possible but I wouldn't allow that.Here is the build. Seems legal, he just found a couple of Feats and an item that add more.
The build is legal but the final DC is wrong. Spell perfection only doubles feat bonuses, nothing else. He ends up at DC:
10 base +15 int +4doubles spell focuses +2school power +9spell level for DC40.
Smug has missed the +2 profane stat bonus from planar binding a succubus. There is also an outsider now which provides +4 so you could push to DC41. Adding a Staff of the Master to be able to add Persistent for free will also let you force two saves although Vacuum would need to use a Rod as he doesn't have the feat.
andreww |
Limburger, who only fails that save on a roll of 3 or less, and bludgeons all the Beastmass challenges to death with punchification (only being hit by any of them on a natural 20), feels sad about being dismissed.
-Cross
The caster entrants mock Limburgers inability to locate them while invisible and mind blanked and then kill him with no save spells.
andreww |
I believe one of the feat choices or the order of them are illegal and he loses a little bit to the DC there, plus some of the items are extremely specific like requiring a full moon or whatever.
Still not as cheesy as using an eidolon as a mount though, X vs AM BARBARIAN is actually a 1v2, not a 1v1.
His feat order is entirely legal. The only situational thing is the quite irrelevant Moon Circlet which is adding to caster level. Given he is auto beating SR without it he really doesn't need it.
yumad |
yumad wrote:His feat order is entirely legal. The only situational thing is the quite irrelevant Moon Circlet which is adding to caster level. Given he is auto beating SR without it he really doesn't need it.I believe one of the feat choices or the order of them are illegal and he loses a little bit to the DC there, plus some of the items are extremely specific like requiring a full moon or whatever.
Still not as cheesy as using an eidolon as a mount though, X vs AM BARBARIAN is actually a 1v2, not a 1v1.
1st Eldritch Heritage
3rd Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)5th Spell Penetration
7th Greater Spell Penetration
9th Varisian tattoo
11th Eldritch Heritage
13th Quicken Spell
15th Improved Eldritch Heritage
17th Greater Eldritch Heritage
19th Reach Spell
There are only two metamagic feats here yet he has spell perfection, the build is not legal. I thought there was some loss of DC, but I forget why.
Edit: You outlined it already, spell perfection on non-feat bonuses.
Double Edit: I don't actually see how he got to 47 anyway, caster level increases don't add to DC.
yumad |
Yep, so he does. He has also taken spell perfection as a class bonus feat which you cannot do as it is not a metamagic feat.
I think the 47 initially involved some sort of illegal Heighten Spell hijinks. The DC should be 40.
Hah, I didn't even catch that, for some reason I assumed spell perfection was a metamagic feat because it had metamagic prereqs. Derp.
Deadmanwalking |
There are only two metamagic feats here yet he has spell perfection, the build is not legal. I thought there was some loss of DC, but I forget why.
You are correct. Still, ditching Bloatmage Initiate for any one other one fixes that,and Bloatmage Initiate is his worst Feat by far.
Edit: You outlined it already, spell perfection on non-feat bonuses.
Uh...where? Everything I see it used on is a Feat.
Double Edit: I don't actually see how he got to 47 anyway, caster level increases don't add to DC.
Looking at it, you're right here. There was a definite screwup. DC should be 40, though he could make a Lilitu his b*&%% for a +4 Profane bonus to Int and make it 42. I think that's as high as it gets barring Mythic.
andreww |
Looking at it, you're right here. There was a definite screwup. DC should be 40, though he could make a Lilitu his b!**& for a +4 Profane bonus to Int and make it 42. I think that's as high as it gets barring Mythic.
I think he was doubling the school power benefit which he accesses from greater eldritch heritage. That isn't a bonus from the feat but from the bloodline.
Dc should be: 10base +16int +4 doubled focus +2 school power +9 level for 41
An arcane sorcerer gets 1 better from the bloodline arcana but can't guarantee going first or acting in the surprise round. An arcanist gets 3 better due to potent spells and bloodline affinity and can grab the diviner power to act in the surprise round. All of them should pick up Persistent Spell to apply it with a Staff of the Master Necromancer.
yumad |
yumad wrote:There are only two metamagic feats here yet he has spell perfection, the build is not legal. I thought there was some loss of DC, but I forget why.You are correct. Still, ditching Bloatmage Initiate for any one other one fixes that,and Bloatmage Initiate is his worst Feat by far.
yumad wrote:Edit: You outlined it already, spell perfection on non-feat bonuses.Uh...where? Everything I see it used on is a Feat.
yumad wrote:Double Edit: I don't actually see how he got to 47 anyway, caster level increases don't add to DC.Looking at it, you're right here. There was a definite screwup. DC should be 40, though he could make a Lilitu his b!~~@ for a +4 Profane bonus to Int and make it 42. I think that's as high as it gets barring Mythic.
I was premature in my assessment, the person I replied to (andreww) stated that it was due to using spell perfection on non-feats and I took that at face value instead of looking at it myself which I did for the second edit realizing that it was either an adding error or something else.
Crosswind |
Crosswind wrote:The caster entrants mock Limburgers inability to locate them while invisible and mind blanked and then kill him with no save spells.Limburger, who only fails that save on a roll of 3 or less, and bludgeons all the Beastmass challenges to death with punchification (only being hit by any of them on a natural 20), feels sad about being dismissed.
-Cross
...Limburger happens to be a full caster too. He has access to many, many castings of true seeing. It should be mentioned that he ain't going to fail a save, and without a quickened true strike, people aren't really going to hit him with touch attacks. =)
The lesson, of course, is that no conversation about silly broken characters is complete without the synthesist summoner.
-Cross