Greyhawk has Mordenkainen, Robilar, Bigby, etc. Forgotten Realms has Elminster, Khelben, Storm, Etc. Every campaign world worth its salt has 'em. The great characters that eventually become the household names of the world they "live" in.
So who will be the future giants of Varisia? Where will they come from? Will they be the new iconics? Will they be the favored characters or literary creations of the Pathfinder authors? Will they arise from the ranks of the first player characters to walk the world of Varisia?
This inquiring mind wonders at the possibilities..........
Wow . . . let them finish actually getting the first issue published. then they can worry about setting up a contest for that stuff.
These things have to grow organically to really work. They can set up figures with intent to be The Big Deal (e.g., The Runelords) -- but the ones that will really make a lasting impact will be the ones you don't foresee.
Think of it as the Snoopy Syndrome -- Charlie Brown's cute lil' dog was a very minor supporting character when "Peanuts" began, and by the end it was practically "The Snoopy Show (With Charlie Brown and Friends)".
The same thing will happen with Pathfinder, I expect. :)
-The Gneech
All the Greyhawk 'Titans' were game-developers characters. If I recall correctly Melf (of acid-arrow fame) was Skip Williams's son's elf mage/fighter or something like that.
I'd expect the Pathfinder 'Titans' to be similar: Around the 2nd or 3rd adventure paths, some important NPCs will be Paizo staff playtest characters. NOT the iconics. There is a difference.
All the Greyhawk 'Titans' were game-developers characters. If I recall correctly Melf (of acid-arrow fame) was Skip Williams's son's elf mage/fighter or something like that.
I'd expect the Pathfinder 'Titans' to be similar: Around the 2nd or 3rd adventure paths, some important NPCs will be Paizo staff playtest characters. NOT the iconics. There is a difference.
Well, it was Gary Gygax's son, but you were close. As a designer of my own homebrew campaign setting, a lot of my old characters and player's old characters have become our "titans", so I have to agree with the organic origins theory.
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All the Greyhawk 'Titans' were game-developers characters. If I recall correctly Melf (of acid-arrow fame) was Skip Williams's son's elf mage/fighter or something like that.
I'd expect the Pathfinder 'Titans' to be similar: Around the 2nd or 3rd adventure paths, some important NPCs will be Paizo staff playtest characters. NOT the iconics. There is a difference.
Hmmm... I like that idea.
That would mean the possibility for gnome "titans" if my characters are deemed worthy enough...
:D
Hmmm... I like that idea.
That would mean the possibility for gnome "titans" if my characters are deemed worthy enough...
:D
Gnomes? Why does it have to be Gnomes!
Seriously though, I'm not sure how or why it started, but in my gaming group there is a huge bias against gnomes. I kinda just picked it up from them. If there's ever an npc gnome that the party needs to deal with, the racial epithet's and slurs just come rolling out. This is across multiple games and settings.
It's gotten so bad that if there's a gnome npc in a published module I'm running, I change the race (if possible) just so the night doesn't de-rail into who can insult the gnome the most.
So, I guess I'll have to say that if there's any chance of a Gnome becoming a Pathfinder Titan, "Oh Gno!"
Just say "Gno"!
All the Greyhawk 'Titans' were game-developers characters. If I recall correctly Melf (of acid-arrow fame) was Skip Williams's son's elf mage/fighter or something like that.
I'd expect the Pathfinder 'Titans' to be similar: Around the 2nd or 3rd adventure paths, some important NPCs will be Paizo staff playtest characters. NOT the iconics. There is a difference.
Hmmm... I like that idea.
That would mean the possibility for gnome "titans" if my characters are deemed worthy enough...
:D
It's great that people are loving the gnomes. My homebrew campaign actually has a gnome "titan" in it. He's a fighter/rogue/duelist, with a flaming hook for a hand, a magical eyepatch, and a pegleg (which can be used to fire a handful of grapeshot). He's quite possibly one of the big favorites of my gaming group.
From some rumblings and hissing sibilant whispers I've been listening too (come to think of it, that may have just been Cthulhu)...these are already in the works...I'll say no more...NOTHING ELSE.
You know you want to.... ;)
You know you want to.... ;)
Oh, I definitely want to. But I can't. :-(
I don't even know MUCH yet, to be honest, so never fear, I'm not really holding out on ya. :-)
I hope they approach this issue VERY carefully. One of the things I like about Eberron, is that there aren't scores of high level NPCs running around who can save the world. That is left up to the PCs.
While a few well known and loved high level NPCs would be a great thing, i hope they don't overdo it, so it gets to the point were the PCs are wondering why all they are left to save the world, when the high level NPCs seem to be just sitting on the arse bludging.
And let's have these high level NPCs be races OTHER than human.
So yeah, Gnome Titans would be cool.
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Ug.
Please, please, please!
No uber-author NPCs that the PCs must always be compared to and forever left second rate to lest the players and DMs be accused of running a "munchkin" campaign for daring to want to have their PCs be more relevant than those of the authors.
If one thing has become an albatross around the neck of Greyhawk it is Mordenkainen and the rest. Don't make the same mistake with this new world.
Samuel makes a good point, so let me clairfy my above point:
Important NPCs need not alway be Epic previous worldshakers to be fixtures of the setting. For instand, Skye of the similarly named emporium in Cauldron was a fixure of the city, and a former adventurer to boot. But the PCs still needed to fix things. Likewise, if the playtest Cleric from the first path ends up as the high priest of his church in the third path, the authors still got to leave their mark without marginalizing the PCs the way Mordenkainen and Elminister did.
Samuel makes a good point, so let me clairfy my above point:
Important NPCs need not alway be Epic previous worldshakers to be fixtures of the setting. For instand, Skye of the similarly named emporium in Cauldron was a fixure of the city, and a former adventurer to boot. But the PCs still needed to fix things. Likewise, if the playtest Cleric from the first path ends up as the high priest of his church in the third path, the authors still got to leave their mark without marginalizing the PCs the way Mordenkainen and Elminister did.
I would love to see this. I don't want Important NPCs to be epic world shapers, but regular NPCs the PCs can meet and interact with, and DMs can swap stories about their PCs meeting are great additions.
So keep them low enough that the PCs are the Heroes of the setting, but high enough that they are still usefull allies.
It's great that people are loving the gnomes. My homebrew campaign actually has a gnome "titan" in it. He's a fighter/rogue/duelist, with a flaming hook for a hand, a magical eyepatch, and a pegleg (which can be used to fire a handful of grapeshot). He's quite possibly one of the big favorites of my gaming group.
I love gnomes! I think they could be redesigned a bit better, but they are my favorite canonical race. (Not the tinker variety.)
Now elves, on the other hand... I don't need to see more of anything elvish.
Samuel makes a good point, so let me clairfy my above point:
Important NPCs need not alway be Epic previous worldshakers to be fixtures of the setting. For instand, Skye of the similarly named emporium in Cauldron was a fixure of the city, and a former adventurer to boot. But the PCs still needed to fix things. Likewise, if the playtest Cleric from the first path ends up as the high priest of his church in the third path, the authors still got to leave their mark without marginalizing the PCs the way Mordenkainen and Elminister did.
Definitely not the plan in my mind at least. I plan on my "Mordenkainen" (if I get one) to be someone in DIRE need of the PCs help...and not at all in a "Hey f#@&o, I'm Elminster, I'm too busy chasing gods around to fight this lich, so you f**!ing do it douche bag...capesh!" ;-)
Well, there's certainly a Gandalf syndrome in FR, if not quite so much in Greyhawk. (Mordenkainen, after all, is a TN uber-wizard who intervenes subtly behind the scenes to keep the "balance." Tenser is more Gandalf-esque, but at odds with the Circle of Eight.) I think a world more like Jordan's Wheel of Time series, where you have these uber-powerful mages who think they're it but in reality aren't close to having a handle on things is a much more interesting model. A tenth-level character in a gritty, not-too-heroic world is gonna think he's really something, but won't measure up when the real bad guys come out of the woodwork--you need a true hero of peasant stock for that, not someone who just stuck around the mages' academy and explored a few dungeons and got all their XP from making diplomacy checks.
MY wavelength is set to 1974 Hz. Apparently, so is yours.;)
Foil hat's getting surprisingly good reception today. XD
"Think of it as the Snoopy Syndrome -- Charlie Brown's cute lil' dog was a very minor supporting character when "Peanuts" began, and by the end it was practically "The Snoopy Show (With Charlie Brown and Friends)".
The same thing will happen with Pathfinder, I expect. :)"
Heh. Snoopy the Gnome!!
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I don't know if the biggest of wizards could have gnomes or not, but one thing is definite: They should be complete and utter bastards. Anything else is just unacceptable :D
Seriously, if the most powerful wizard in the world is any type of good, I'm going to give up on the pathfinder or kill myself, whichever comes first
~wicked laughter~ Oh, goodie!!!!!
Definitely not the plan in my mind at least. I plan on my "Mordenkainen" (if I get one) to be someone in DIRE need of the PCs help...and not at all in a "Hey f!&!o, I'm Elminster, I'm too busy chasing gods around to fight this lich, so you f!&!ing do it douche bag...capesh!" ;-)
LOL!
Back to the subject at hand, I agree with some of the posters that it would be bad if "iconic" characters overshadowed the PCs, but I do like the idea of powerful characters, such as a Mordenkainen type, growing organically into the setting. Personally, I feel a good way to do this is to introduce the characters used by the authors/Paizo publishers during their playtests. Demon Boy, Chuko, et. al. were quite the celebrities on the Paizo forums, and it seems somehow fitting that the "shared world" characters should come from the escapades of the people who actually created Varisia. After all, Robilar and Bigby weren't just invented to fill space in a stat block, they were characters used by the creators of the game!
Of course, this all assumes that the fine folks at Paizo will relate their gaming stories in Varisia on the forums...
I hope they approach this issue VERY carefully. One of the things I like about Eberron, is that there aren't scores of high level NPCs running around who can save the world. That is left up to the PCs.
Yes, though even in Eberron there were bunch of characters which started to rise to status of "titans"...but sensibly enough, they were mostly political movers and shakers. Kings and queens, heads of houses, Vol...
Oh, and for non-human titans, gnomes are nothing...we had leprechaun titans :)
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Would be nice if there weren't any so it got to be the PCs for once. I think they get tired of playing second fiddle, 2nd edition FR was a sure way to engender ennui in players. Elminster essentially didn't exist in mine (he did but I would never inflict the old goat on my PCs as tehy are my freinds), and I played Khelbun as a total git who just used adventurers for his plans as he saw fit, so long as Waterdeep was safe he didn't care too much what they thought of him. They oddly respected him for this as the understood the position he was in.
Alternatively all the titans are evil, in this case the Runelords. In a sense players could be almost parasitic, particulalry wizards, desperately having to loot spells and gear from their fallen enemies as there is no other way to get them. In a sense taking the power back.
That is why my group love SC AP so much. Sure, I run it in GH but they are the titans in the region. If they fail the city falls, everything revolves and pivots around them. They really know they are making the difference. The Circle of Eight are so far removed for what is going on, and the lands to the north are so far away, they might as well not exist. In other words, no cavalry to come riding in to save the day :) In fact if "cavalry" did show up they'd most likely go "Who they hell do you think you are telling us how to save our city? Where where you when all this started? And no, late is not better than never, now bugger off, you have no legal authroity here".
Not sure if Pathfinder will have much downtime for crafting but in campaigns that don't PCs usually have to live off their enemies anyway, at least until high level when the can transport to a metropolis to go shopping, and even then they usually want something that is way too expensive or bespoke (and would take a bloody age to craft).
From what I can see ST is similar to SC in this regards, however AoW was not. One of the main reasons I ended up deciding to skip it, with the PCs becoming prominent religious and political figures in SC, as well as the only ones powerful enough to challenge the Cagewrights, there is no way we will go back :)
PS This doesn't mean I'll spit my dummy out if there are some, I'll just given them the El treatment, by making them as mute, irrelevant, and invisible as possible :)
Should we bring out the giraffe-torsoed beetle yet, Erik?If you guys liked what we did with goblins, you are going to _adore_ our plans for gnomes.
--Erik
All right, I just gotta ask: WTF?!
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Would be nice if there weren't any so it got to be the PCs for once.
I think we're all dedicated to making the PCs the main protagonists in any stories (i.e., adventures or campaigns) in which they appear. We'd like to think we can strike the delicate balance between FR's excess of powerhouse NPCs and Eberron's utter lack of powerhouse NPCs, but I guess time will tell. :)
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I personally like having a few heavy hitters in a campaign setting. Worlds don't just spring up unless you're designing one set in an early age of development, which Pathfinder isn't.
It doesn't seem logical that the last generation (or the one before that, or whatever) didn't have any heroes that lived. If they had all died, then the bad guys would be in power everywhere (another type of campaign setting altogether) and the heroes' road would be considerably harder.
Do the high-powered heroes have to get involved in the players' business? Nope.
The answer to "Why not?" can go a number of ways
1- The big boys have their own agendas. Business to attend to, alternate realities to study, whatever. In any good mythic campaign setting, there should be plenty of 'heroing' to go around.
2- The big boys realize that if they take care of every threat, then no one will rise to the challenge, and when they die (and everyone dies, sooner or later) there will be no-one to take up the torch.
3- As a variation of 2 above, maybe the big boys keep track of up and comers and actually create these threats as a sort of "hazing" so the new guys can get into the "Justice League of Greyhawk." Sort of "Man, Mordenkainen, don't you ever get tired of that 'The Return of Kyuss' gag? You only used it on me fifty years ago. We really need to write some new material."
4- Perhaps, once you get to a certain power level, the Gods themselves function as a sort of pressure valve. If you start making too many big, noticeable waves, they call you up to the major leagues. Myrlynd, Kelanen... these guys couldn't keep from making their presences known, and thus were "ascended" to keep them from mucking up the whole Prime Material Plane. Thus, Mordenkainen and Elminster are forced to use catspaws to get things done in the world. If they personally make a big change like whacking Kyuss, the Gods will notice and "call them home" effectively removing them from a game they both love all too much.
In the end, they can have as much or as little impact in your campaign as you desire. They're tools... like magic items with an agenda, or some country in your campaign world that the party never actually goes to, but still has some imapct on the game.
I've used both Elminster and Mordenkainen as shadowy patrons who come up with "little jobs" for the party... sort of hero mentors. I've used them as living libraries. And once, I used Elminster as a "Deus Ex Machina" to keep a stupid mistake made by a single party member from wrecking the campaign. It was good that he happened to be in the neighborhood, and even after he "fixed" things, the party still had a lot of work to do.
If you guys liked what we did with goblins, you are going to _adore_ our plans for gnomes.
Oh?! Um... like what? Damn it, now all I can think about is what you could possibly be doing with gnomes. Thanks a lot. ;)
Do they subsist on elf flesh? >:)
If you guys liked what we did with goblins, you are going to _adore_ our plans for gnomes.
Oh?! Um... like what? Damn it, now all I can think about is what you could possibly be doing with gnomes. Thanks a lot. ;)
Do they subsist on elf flesh? >:)
Gnome Gninjas. Yes baby! YES!
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To clarify a bit:
It isn't a question of whether the high powered NPCs exist. Them being around is fine.
It is a question of whether they are given, by the authors or overexuberant fans, a transcendant status that PCs are never allowed to challenge.
Perhaps that means there must be a constant rotation of such NPCs.
Perhaps it means PCs must be shown surpassing them within the course of an adventure path.
However it happens, the key is that the NPCs never become a burden on players, DMs, or writers. Iconic is nice, but past a certain point it becomes a drag rather than a boost.
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Ug.
Please, please, please!
No uber-author NPCs that the PCs must always be compared to and forever left second rate to lest the players and DMs be accused of running a "munchkin" campaign for daring to want to have their PCs be more relevant than those of the authors.
If one thing has become an albatross around the neck of Greyhawk it is Mordenkainen and the rest. Don't make the same mistake with this new world.
I gotta agree, here. If there's one thing I really loathe about most of the extant settings is all the "ego NPCs." A setting's major NPCs shouldn't be anything above 10th-level, and should usually have NPC classes except in fairly rare cases. Put the emphasis where it should be--on the PCs. If there's all the high-level NPCs mucking about, there's really no need for the PCs to even exist.
To clarify a bit:
It isn't a question of whether the high powered NPCs exist. Them being around is fine.
It is a question of whether they are given, by the authors or overexuberant fans, a transcendant status that PCs are never allowed to challenge.Perhaps that means there must be a constant rotation of such NPCs.
Perhaps it means PCs must be shown surpassing them within the course of an adventure path.
However it happens, the key is that the NPCs never become a burden on players, DMs, or writers. Iconic is nice, but past a certain point it becomes a drag rather than a boost.
It would be nice to see some of them die.... And stay dead. Picking up the pieces where a revered hero left off (due to an unexpected turn of death) is a great plot hook to get PCs into the thick of things, after all. ;)
I keep seeing this doppelanger everywhere...a daemon from Carcosa?
Funny... I was thinking the same thing.
I think a staring contest would probably be a draw...Maybe a scowling contest?...no...that won't work, either...I keep seeing this doppelanger everywhere...a daemon from Carcosa?Funny... I was thinking the same thing.
I know, a BEAUTY contest!! Nah, would take to long to decide a winner.
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It doesn't seem logical that the last generation...didn't have any heroes that lived. If they had all died, then the bad guys would be in power everywhere
Maybe the last few generations had heroes, they just didn't reach level 21. :)
What if the pinnacle of achievement for NPC's was merely "competent adventurer?"
Low-level encounters like goblins and kobolds could be your 'standard' threat to civilization. You know, something a community armed with pitchforks could occasionally handle. This provides adventures for groups to cut their teeth on, creates some low-level npcs with combat classes, and explains why humanity and the other classic races haven't been exterminated.
Mid-level threats happen of course, and notable, but farily uncommon NPC's exist who can also handle these types of things. These are the events which become bard's tales, local/regional folklore, whatever. Powerful enough NPC's to provide PC trainers, leaders, and adequate enforcement of "No lightning or fireballs in the bazaar or other common areas" laws. You've also got a source of spells/items/knowledge for all but the most powerful/obscure bits.
The monumental (high-level) events could be handled by a very rare and special group which only comes along once in a campaign: the player characters. This is the stuff of legend, the kind of story which may even become a part of the mythology. No high level NPC's can really show them more than they already know, or provide them with better equipment or skills. This is the kind of stuff lost in dungeons or obtained through other forms of "self-directed learning." :)
There's no need for a "Sphere of Twelve Gandminsters" managing the world's affairs if the truly epic threats are consistently handled by PC's in adventure paths/campaigns. Why interact with the super-elite when you can BE them?
For instance, I wouldn't want to complete the Savage Tide AP only to have some high-level NPC show up in a puff of smoke, throwing out a comment like, "Sorry I'm late, I had a thing on another plane...Oh you got Demogorgon? Cool. I *HATE* destroying that guy...er...guys, whatever. Anyway, if you want good xp's and loot, do Orcus."
Dead uber NPC's are the greatest. They can still influence the game world with their named spells and named items and fabulously rich stories or published fiction. It's just that dead people don't happen to be able to get in the way of current events, or the PC's ascension to superduperness.
There is no persistent threat which requires high-level NPC's to battle if your gaming group can't get together over the summer.
The world doesn't need to be beset on all sides by nearly insurmountable evil. It needs to be beset on just one side by nearly insurmountable evil. As luck would have it, there is always a group of 4-6 players of level xx-xx to handle this.
I think it'd be pretty cool to have the legends of your campaign world be populated pretty much exclusively by previous PC groups from earlier campaigns in the setting. In this way, the resolutions you present (I like #4, myself!) become GM fiat instead of codified contrivance.
4- Perhaps, once you get to a certain power level, the Gods themselves function as a sort of pressure valve. If you start making too many big, noticeable waves, they call you up to the major leagues.
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Um... I would be willing so settle for cool reconceptualisation of gnomes, I guess. But no gnomes whatsoever would be, as the saying goes, da bomb.
I never liked gnomes either until Cladio Pozas' take on a gnome urban druid. Now I can at least accept gnomes, but they're going to need to be presented well (in both art and fluff).