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I’ve been GMing a game of 2e recently, and the one thing I’ve found consistently is that my character who is playing a wizard seems to have less fun on his turns in regard to being creative and strategic with the three-action system. This is primarily due to the fact that virtually all spells are at least two actions, leaving the third action a little in the dust. Please note this is not another “casters are weak” thread; nor is it necessarily just about optimization (although certainly some options are bound to be better). I just wanted to see how folks playing casters tend to use their actions in ways that are fun for the player and/or mechanically interesting. Right now I’m seeing a few options: Basic:
Skill Actions:
Others?
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I'd imagine Alter Self would just really buff your disguise skill in PFO (perhaps with a visual rendering of your choosing to go along with it). So it sounds totally feasible! I think the only issue is your "alter ego" would have a procedurally generated name every time you stepped into him/her. ![]()
Jolt wrote:
This makes much more sense, sorry! I mis-parsed and was thinking you were worried about getting killed WHILE marrying people. But yes, I think Blaeringr has it on the nose. Be a farmer/cleric, or an aristocrat/cleric, or a crafter/cleric, or just a cleric who specializes in doing things that are more settlement-focused than exploratory. Sticking around a high-security settlement will let you play the game as you wish while ensuring safety as well. Eventually, you'll probably be able to move to a player-run settlement that is "as secure" (note the quotes) as an NPC settlement as well. Slightly higher risk/reward than just sticking around the NPC settlement though. ![]()
Name: Zi Mishkal
The Gory Details: The party was working its way through Hargulka's fort following their militia's battle with the trolls outside, and were nearing the big bad's chamber itself - they were mid-battle with the rock troll when they see a little bead come flying out from behind a curtain of animal furs. Hargulka had been watching, and looking for an opportune moment to join the fight! This 8d6 fireball dropped the party cleric and the wizard to either negatives or very close; the rest of the party rushed up to Hargulka after killing the rock troll. Hargulka seized the opportunity to throw in one more bead and the wizard was down. Fortunately he had two hero points, so was able to be "stable and -11" rather than dead. The party barbarian then proceeded to crit on both of his next attacks, slicing off Hargulka's head before he could drop another fireball on the party, which would have likely killed the cleric too. ![]()
Stephen Cheney wrote: We're hoping that training becomes one of our incentives for established groups being inviting to newbies. At some point, a powerful settlement starts to notice that it has low-level training "rotting on the vine" and starts marking it down and setting up touts in starter areas to try to convince lower level players to come buy it to avoid it just going to waste. Ideally there are several settlements all fighting to get new players to come visit in this way. This sounds great! Also, clynx, you raise some good points. I'm still a little skeptical until I see it in action I think, but hopefully it'll work out. I just want training to be a viable economy in and of itself as well, and upkeep costs were the very first thing I thought of that made it different from crafting. ![]()
Nihimon wrote:
This was exactly my point, Nihimon. ![]()
I also like the skill decay concept, at least for newly-acquired or top-of-the-pyramid skills. Once you have a skill that has it as a prerequisite, perhaps you are assumed to have mastered that skill, and it no longer decays (at least not until the skills above it decay, but that's a whole separate can of worms). This would also disincentivize people to play characters that are TOO varied. Having one level in every role might be interesting, but unless there are synergies between skills you're going to have a hard time keeping them all useful. Another point that could be a whole other discussion topic, lol. Personally, I like Nihimon's option 2... the more complex the better :) It would also differentiate settlements. Perhaps one settlement is really good at training blacksmiths at making plate armor, but another is very good at training blacksmiths who make axes. Or magic academies that are specialized in certain schools. Super cool to think about. I also hope that settlements aren't restricted too much in terms of numbers of Training Halls... but I think we're in the same boat in this one, Nihimon. ![]()
I understand that players already set the cost and can adjust it as they see fit. The difference between training and anything else though, is that it is a one-time fee as far as I can tell, and this might present a problem economically for training centers. Unlike items that require upkeep to remain viable, skills just "are", and once you have them, you have them. Basically, you are much less likely to have repeat customers as a training center than as a merchant or crafter, unless a character wants a new skill, in which case you better have it ready. Crafters on the other hand can simply repair broken items. It will make the training economy fundamentally different from the crafting economy, which I think might be a bad thing, like I addressed above. ![]()
Yes, yes, yes, I think it will still be Pathfinder. Personally, I could care less about the system as long as I can roleplay the types of characters available to me in Pathfinder. Who cares if it's implemented differently, as long as it's true to spirit of the source material (which I believe it will be). Training costs just make sense. And the way I think it's going to be implemented, I think it'll feel much more like you achieved a new rank, rather than it just happened while you were playing. It also gracefully solves a lot of the problems inherent in characters that are logged off for two months, and can come back as super beefed up characters. They need to get some gold before they can spend those XP's. In PnP, it's often assumed you went to a library or had a tutor for that rank in linguistics, so I don't think it's unreasonable for that to be the case in PFO. Plus, monetizing training increases player interaction, which is always good imo. ![]()
With the newest GW Blog post, I'm really excited to see that training is becoming a finite resource that can be bartered and sold. I do have a concern though, namely that it will not be on par with trading physical goods. This is for one reason: Upkeep. Upkeep is what drives any economic system. As items leave the market after being used to the point of no longer being usable, crafters are there and ready to supply a brand new - and possibly improved - version. Or alternatively, are there to "reforge" the sword or "patch holes" in the wizard's robe. Either way, you're paying upkeep on the gear you own, and this upkeep continually keeps money flowing through the economy. Yet with training, I'm worried that it will be a system where, once you've purchased the training, you do not need anything else. Sure, you'll need to return to train better skills/abilities/feats (I'm just going to say skill from now on for simplicity), but once you have a skill, it's yours forever. You theoretically never need to return to that place of skill training. There are upsides and downsides to this. The upsides are for the consumer, the downsides for the training establishment. So what will keep the training establishment in business? Is it new customers, purchasing skills as they gain XP? Or is it old customers returning as they continue to advance (assuming the training facility keeps pace their advancement)? While I'm not sure what the best way is to resolve what I see as a problem, I can offer a few opinions. Solution 1:
Solution 2:
Any thoughts on this? I love the idea of monetizing skill training, but I think it does need to be more than a one-time purchase to keep the training economy afloat (thus I like option 2 better). What do others think? Do you think this is even a problem? ![]()
I plan on playing a TN druid/aristocrat as my Destiny's Twin. The concept is sort of "nature's architect", ensuring sustainable development of my chosen settlement, or perhaps the development of a nature-oriented settlement. So, I will be involved in settlement management / upkeep of some kind. I'm really liking the idea of a druidic pact though. Us nature-types need to stick together! ![]()
Jameow wrote: But training takes a LONG time. So if you want to get healing abilities, and be good at it... you'll be spending a lot of time working your healing up. And then there's whatever alignment restrictions etc are in play. Sorry, this was what I was trying to say in my post, but you've said it better. Anyone CAN get healing spells, but you'll have to devote serious time getting access to spells in the first place. Basically, unless you plan on following a skill tree that emulates a class with healing spells, you're effectively multiclassing to get these healing spells, making you less likely to be as good at your primary profession as the person who doesn't have these spells. Is that a good trade off? Up to you. ![]()
Carbon D Metric wrote:
Not even that as I understand it. You will train X skill for Y amount of real time and it will go up. Playing the game will unlock other things, and grant certain rewards, but skills do not go up "with use", they go up with real time training. That aside, I think I agree with the original intent of this post if not all the particulars. Each "class path" should get a few interesting things along the way to capstone, not just the capstone. Of course, anyone can get these with enough training, but then you're a multiclassed character. The capstones however are reserved for characters with training nigh-exclusively in one class. Personally I sort of envision each class path as an amalgam of different ability tracks, with some overlap between classes. Like both the sorcerer and wizard paths go down the "arcane magic" tree, but sorcerers pursue the "spontaneity tree" while the wizards pursue the "hermetic magic" tree. Same kinds of magic, different skill trees taken to implement it. ![]()
Seems like a good implementation, if the races themselves aren't too code intensive. I'm guessing NPCs will react differently to different races, so this may be one aspect of not putting them all in initially. Perhaps the "Halfling" flag would read as gnome in all respects until release if that is less code-intensive? That might work. ![]()
Joanna Swiftblade wrote: How did you meet the pre-req for Arcane Archer with only one level of bard? Don't they require at least level 2 arcane spells? Nope, it only requires level one spells. Fromper wrote:
Yeah, I saw that thread, and I agree. I think DH is only worth it in the second case where some of the later abilities like Aura of Justice aren't replaced because I'm taking Arcane Archer with that build. With the straight paladin though, I like where your head is at with Greater / Ultimate Mercy. They are certainly feats I'd like to take. Possibly in place of Deadly Aim (pushing it back to 9th?) and then Ultimate Mercy later on. The rest of the party is a sword-and-board paladin with the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype, a melee archivist bard, a dwarven fighter specializing with a longhammer, and an oracle planning on going mystic theurge. It'd probably be the fighter and I doing most of the damage, I'd imagine, but I certainly don't need to be completely optimized for damage for the character to work. ![]()
So I'm building an archer paladin of Shelyn for a Carrion Crown campaign, and I'm looking for some advice on which build to pursue. Both are using a human paladin as a base for roleplay reasons. I've poked around the boards a bit, but still having trouble settling on an option. The first is straightforward - either straight paladin or divine hunter. Likely vanilla paladin, possibly with Oath of Vengeance. Feats: H): Point-Blank Shot
With divine hunter, I'd probably just put Weapon Focus in at level 3 or so. The second option is a paladin/bard/arcane archer build that I like because it seems a little more versatile and fits with the flavor of the character. It sacrifices LoH progression and Smite damage/use per day progression but gains lots of skills, some spells, and the Archaeologist's Luck ability (which makes up for some of the loss in BAB and Smite). Paladin (Divine Archer) 6 / Bard (Archaeologist) 1 / Arcane Archer 10 H): Point-Blank Shot
etc Thoughts? ![]()
I used Carnival of Tears also to great effect after the kingdom started to get on its feet. Cold Rider = Stag Lord reanimated by the big bad. Rigg from RRR = Prig as written in module
I also had Tyg be enchanted and playing the fiddle during the "grand finale" so the PC's knew many of the fey had been enchanted into doing these bad things. A couple of other touches really personalized it, I think. ![]()
Andius wrote:
No one's telling you to do otherwise, Andius - you don't need to defend your choice to play a straight white male character. That's not the issue at hand here. Decius was just speculating that it would be nice if not all PCs played elves, dwarves, or half-orcs stereotypically, as far as I can tell. And yes, I think it would be nice to see some subverted tropes in PCs' roleplay, but this is obviously not something we can control, or would want to. Back on topic: Jim Rudnick wrote: Camlo Alban, I appreciate and agree with your original post. I'm curious if you have examples to recommend where this has been handled well in other games? For reference, what are your thoughts on how these issues where handled in Dragonage Origins? Cheers Hi Jim, I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Really, Decius and The Doc CC have said mostly everything I would want to. Mass Effect 3 is a good recent example of things done fairly well in a video game, like Doc says. It's honestly so much easier to think of bad examples than good ones, particularly when it comes to portrayals of women. I'd recommend watching some of "feministfrequency"'s videos on YouTube for examples of tropes many video games fall prey to. Golarion in many ways is already fairly egalitarian, at least from what I've read of the setting (which though not complete, is quite a bit). And Doc is right, the art for the game is substantially better in terms of representing a diverse group of people than many games to begin with. Seelah is one of my favorite iconics for this very reason; a black female paladin is something that's unheard of in many games. But in Golarion, it's a possibility. Not leaving out representations of people of color, LGBT individuals, and accurately portraying women goes a long way toward making a game come to life, and does a lot toward drawing in a broader audience of gamers. Really, I'm just asking that you keep up the good work that Paizo has begun with its Pathfinder setting and characters. ArgentumLupus wrote: Since players are going to use whatever color they want for their characters, the question for NPC's becomes this: What is the ethnic composition of the River Kingdoms (that still is the setting for PFO, right?)? True. The thing to think about is: Which ethnic groups are common in the region? What ethnic groups are likely to immigrate to the region? Why? For example, I'd imagine there are a number of escaped halfling slaves (and slaves in general) in the region due to the Six Freedoms that prohibit slavery. I'm less sure about why some of the human ethnic groups might be in the region, however. The RKs are rather Slavic in nature from what I've gathered, although Casamaron is quite nearby... ![]()
Mbando wrote:
Agreed. But it does increase the verisimilitude of the setting if not all of the NPCs are caricatures of fantasy tropes. That sentiment is borne more out of a desire for non-lazy character development than any sense of social justice. DeciusBrutus wrote: It's socially conscious and good for business, but requires a skillset not always part of the game development pipeline. Very true, which is really all I'm trying to get across here is "please, keep this in mind". Just being aware of these issues can do a world of good. It's also important to note that I'm not saying all of these minorities have to get along or always be examples of good people - just they they be represented as real characters, not two-dimensional cutouts. ![]()
Andius wrote: Sorry that did come off a bit harsh before I edited in the bottom portion. No worries. I'm just requesting it of the GW staff because NPCs are obviously something under their control, and often set the tone for the game as a whole. Posting something requesting players to "ensure minorities are represented" doesn't really make sense, nor would I want to do that. And like V'rel Vusoryn said, I do hope the GW staff makes a conscious effort to make skin palettes and things available to players so that we can play the character we'd like to make (within the parameters of the game, of course.) ![]()
Long-time lurker, first time thread-starter, yadda yadda... So I know Paizo is pretty good about this in their APs and modules, but after doing a few searches of this forum I hadn't seen anyone else request this: I really hope that PFO does a good job of representing minority groups in the game. I for one get a little tired at seeing time and time again Straight White Men speaking to other Straight White Men about this and that... I beg you to please try to ensure within the framework of the stories you want to tell that there's a good mix of diversity to the game in terms of NPCs and story / quest lines. I certainly appreciate it when it does occur in video games. Of course, this being a fantasy setting, this also applies to other races as well. Speaking of which, tokenism (not to be confused with Tolkienism...) is also something to be avoided. Is the only dwarf in town the blacksmith? Is the only elf in town the wizard? Are women consistently portrayed in domestic roles, or roles that rely largely on men? (See the Bechdel Test for movies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s) Are there people of color represented in a non-stereotypic way? (Ameiko is of course a pretty good example of this.) Are LGBT people visibly represented at all? I'm not saying women can't be mothers, housewives, or vamps, and dwarves can't be or even typically are blacksmiths, but it goes a long way when games try to portray characters as real people and not just as sum of tropes. Though tropes can be great at times, they can also be a little tiresome and expected. I'm not looking for anything specific to come out of this post, other than I hope that the developers take things like this into consideration when building and designing the game. I'm looking hugely forward to the game, and would be disappointed if it were prone to the same types of things that make me roll my eyes at other games. ![]()
I have the Childhood Crush trait from the campaign, and Extremely Fashionable (currently selected Intimidate because I was working with Dazzling Display). I was planning on going as primarly a supporter with passable melee abilities. Rapier isn't the best melee weapon, but it's flavorful. It could probably be beefed up with some of the Critical-related feats, but those would be rather late-game. ![]()
Hey guys! I'm hoping some of you might be able to help me optimize this build I've been working on of a cleric of Cayden Cailean for the Jade Regent AP. The flavor I'm going for is charismatic and a bit rascally; for his background I'd imagine he's a brewer or perhaps a liquor merchant. Here's a link to the character sheet at first level:
And here are my feat plans for the subsequent levels:
Spoiler:
1st: Weapon Focus (Rapier) Human: Dazzling Display 3rd: Improved Initiative 5th: Scribe Scroll 7th: Combat Casting 9th: Heighten Spell 11th: Preferred Spell (Blessing of Fervor probably; maybe Fly) 13th: ? 15th: ? 17th: Probably won't get this high Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! ![]()
I for one am in love with Forencith's idea of having all player names be initially blank to you, and to make you the player fill in names as you meet people. For me, this would increase immersion by a *lot*, and would solve pretty much the entire problem. How this would be implemented might be a little difficult, but I could see a system where the true "ID" is hidden from the player, and the player only sees a person's name only as the player has identified them. This would make it so you actually have to *meet* a person to find out their name! I love the concept. ![]()
Back to the original topic of the post, I think that one of the better solutions to the problem of "diverse humans" is to allow for presets that define the character visually, and as long as a character falls within certain ranges of values for the visual aspects, the character is stamped by the game as "Varisian" or "Chelaxian" - or if you fall between these two, perhaps the game stamps you as both. This would accurately model how NPCs could then perceive your character based on his/her visual properties, and perhaps the old Varisian Harrower reacts better to Varisian PCs than non-Varisians. All of this would be on an RP-and-immersion-promoting level. It also makes sense, because NPCs will have generally only appearance as a first measure of a person. A PC may be an Ulfen born and raised in Absalom, but how is the NPC to know that without interaction? As for statistical differences between human ethnicities, I think that's not necessary. I think that could be handled beautifully with a trait or "background wizard" system like the one that's already been suggested. You want your half-orc to be erudite and aloof? No problem. Pick out a couple of characteristics in the background wizard and NPCs will react accordingly. What's great is that some of these things might change over time through interaction with NPCs - maybe this half-Orc becomes a bit more personable, and the "aloofness" value lowers over time. Other traits may be less malleable, like country of birth or parentage. Some of the traits may be mutually exclusive, to prevent nonsensical characters (my half Orc is erudite, aloof, illiterate, and very personable... Not all those things go together.) There would also be perhaps a cap of five traits that define the character (just to make it easier for NPCs.) They could be... Country of Origin, Demeanor, Self-Esteem, Religiosity, and Inquisitiveness, for example (just making things up.) Anyway... Rant over. I think if they separate the visual look of a character from his or her background, it would lead to a greater variety of characters and make for a very interesting game. No one would be cookie-cutter, and it would provide a greater deal of richness. Other accommodations could be made for other races: Elves come in regular and forlorn perhaps, half Orcs and half elves would break down along the type of society that raised them, the ethnicity of their human side, Gnomes might vary by stage of bleaching, halflings by whether they come from slave populations, etc. There's tons of lore to work with here. |