Minority Representation in PFO?


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Goblin Squad Member

Long-time lurker, first time thread-starter, yadda yadda...

So I know Paizo is pretty good about this in their APs and modules, but after doing a few searches of this forum I hadn't seen anyone else request this: I really hope that PFO does a good job of representing minority groups in the game.

I for one get a little tired at seeing time and time again Straight White Men speaking to other Straight White Men about this and that... I beg you to please try to ensure within the framework of the stories you want to tell that there's a good mix of diversity to the game in terms of NPCs and story / quest lines. I certainly appreciate it when it does occur in video games. Of course, this being a fantasy setting, this also applies to other races as well.

Speaking of which, tokenism (not to be confused with Tolkienism...) is also something to be avoided. Is the only dwarf in town the blacksmith? Is the only elf in town the wizard? Are women consistently portrayed in domestic roles, or roles that rely largely on men? (See the Bechdel Test for movies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s) Are there people of color represented in a non-stereotypic way? (Ameiko is of course a pretty good example of this.) Are LGBT people visibly represented at all?

I'm not saying women can't be mothers, housewives, or vamps, and dwarves can't be or even typically are blacksmiths, but it goes a long way when games try to portray characters as real people and not just as sum of tropes. Though tropes can be great at times, they can also be a little tiresome and expected. I'm not looking for anything specific to come out of this post, other than I hope that the developers take things like this into consideration when building and designing the game. I'm looking hugely forward to the game, and would be disappointed if it were prone to the same types of things that make me roll my eyes at other games.

Goblin Squad Member

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The players tell the story here not GoblinWorks. If you want to see minorities represented then represent them.

I don't mean that harshly I'm just saying if a lesbian halfling is going to lead troops in battle she needs to gather troops or earn an officer position, because no NPC will likely be given that much authority. Within our organization I want people to play characters they enjoy playing, and it will not just be straight human males filling the important roles unless that is what every qualified player chooses to be.

Goblin Squad Member

Pathfinder does represent Humans from almost all backgrounds (white, black, yellow, green...), I guess the character generator in PFO will do so too.

That said +1 to Andius.

Goblin Squad Member

As Andius said, considering it sounds like the majority of positions will be done by players, I think it would be better to ask us as players. I do hope they have a variety of people for npcs.
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My guess as to why some other games do this is for simplicity. If the dwarf is always the blacksmith in town, then people aren't taking as long to find the blacksmith. Either that, or the general area they are in has scenery related to their position (IE smiths have forges and anvils, tailors have sewing, the general store... Has general stuff.)

Goblin Squad Member

I understand that, Andius. But there will also be a not-insignificant proportion of NPCs. There's no need to be dismissive.

As I said, Paizo and Pathfinder have a good history with this. I just want to ensure that GoblinWorks keeps up the good trend.

Goblin Squad Member

Camlo Alban wrote:

I understand that, Andius. But there will also be a not-insignificant proportion of NPCs. There's no need to be dismissive.

As I said, Paizo and Pathfinder have a good history with this. I just want to ensure that GoblinWorks keeps up the good trend.

Sorry that did come off a bit harsh before I edited in the bottom portion.

Goblin Squad Member

I would hope that GW would represent the Human races from pasty white to dark as night just as the PFRPG does. I think that is one of the great parts about PFRPG and at this day and age it isn't only white males rolling dice.

Indeed the RPG gaming scene is alot more colorful these days. While it is pretty much a given that people of European and Asian heritage play RPGs, believe it or not there are a large percentage of people of African heritage that play RPGs too.

So yes, please pass this on to the skin palette team and if racial bonuses or the like make it in that team as well. Please use the entire palette as represented in the actual Campaign books. If a race makes it into the game, then make sure all variations that are represented in PFRPG are in PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

Camlo Alban wrote:
But there will also be a not-insignificant proportion of NPCs.

First, Ryan has stated that there really won't be very many NPCs in the game. The vast majority of the workers in Settlements, Harvest Camps, etc. will be invisible.

That said, I agree with you and hope that the NPCs that are visible aren't all simplistic stereotypes.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Sorry that did come off a bit harsh before I edited in the bottom portion.

No worries. I'm just requesting it of the GW staff because NPCs are obviously something under their control, and often set the tone for the game as a whole. Posting something requesting players to "ensure minorities are represented" doesn't really make sense, nor would I want to do that.

And like V'rel Vusoryn said, I do hope the GW staff makes a conscious effort to make skin palettes and things available to players so that we can play the character we'd like to make (within the parameters of the game, of course.)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm of mixed feelings; on the one hand, it's something which a socially conscious designer would do to maximize appeal; on the other hand, it is probably alien to most of the development team (based on industry demographics and the rough correspondence of the apparent demographics of the announced team, I don't believe that diversity was a factor on the same order as experience when selecting the developers, so I think that the developers are roughly representative of the industry- lots of speculation there), so there is reason to believe that it will be implemented poorly. On the gripping hand, making an active effort to make, allow, or encourage minority and/or non-normative characters is a tool that will allow positive publicity and notice in channels outside the mainstream gaming circles, and will attract interest from the non-normative markets of gamers (which combine to make up something like 53% of all computer gamers).

It's socially conscious and good for business, but requires a skillset not always part of the game development pipeline. Find a sociology or anthropology major who is also a computer and tabletop gamer, preferably someone who 'has proven experience and understanding of as many minority subcultures as possible' (since it is illegal (with good reason) to discriminate on the 'relevant' personal characteristics like gender, orientation, religious beliefs, etc.) and have that person create the subtle subcultures (assuming that there is enough theme park content and NPCs for there to be dwarves and elves who aren't requisite mechanical vendor machines).

(apologizes for all the parentheticals (and nested ones).)


Yeah, it would be great if I could say my character is Tian, Mwangi, Keleshite, Garundi, etc. as well as Chelaxian or Varisian.

Goblin Squad Member

I can see the political stakes for representations that map over to reality, but not so much for fantastic representations.

If the designers made PFO completely heteronormative, I can see how that has some impact on real people. Dwarves being smiths, dragons being greedy, etc., sort of hard to see how that is a politically meaningful representational choice.

Because those things are made up and not real.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The socially conscious aspect of making the Fantasy Races non-normative is that it negatively reinforces the meta-notion that people should be defined by factors of their birth, and not by their choices in life.

It won't have a huge effect on the world either way in this one instance, but having something that gets discussed positively in the academic circles will open up new lines of exposure and a new audience.

Goblin Squad Member

Mbando wrote:

I can see the political stakes for representations that map over to reality, but not so much for fantastic representations.

If the designers made PFO completely heteronormative, I can see how that has some impact on real people. Dwarves being smiths, dragons being greedy, etc., sort of hard to see how that is a politically meaningful representational choice.

Because those things are made up and not real.

Agreed. But it does increase the verisimilitude of the setting if not all of the NPCs are caricatures of fantasy tropes. That sentiment is borne more out of a desire for non-lazy character development than any sense of social justice.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
It's socially conscious and good for business, but requires a skillset not always part of the game development pipeline.

Very true, which is really all I'm trying to get across here is "please, keep this in mind". Just being aware of these issues can do a world of good.

It's also important to note that I'm not saying all of these minorities have to get along or always be examples of good people - just they they be represented as real characters, not two-dimensional cutouts.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
The socially conscious aspect of making the Fantasy Races non-normative is that it negatively reinforces the meta-notion that people should be defined by factors of their birth, and not by their choices in life.

Great point, Decius.

Grand Lodge Goblinworks Founder

Camlo Alban, I appreciate and agree with your original post. I'm curious if you have examples to recommend where this has been handled well in other games? For reference, what are your thoughts on how these issues where handled in Dragonage Origins? Cheers

Goblinworks Executive Founder

DA:O walked a fine line; they almost hung a lampshade on the fact that every NPC was true to stereotype, but the stereotypes were clearly held by the world and appeared to be intended to evoke some degree of cognitive dissonance in the player. I did like that there was no attempt to tell the player that they made a 'good' or 'bad' decision, only to tell them what their current party thought of it and what the practical effect was.

If there are a lot of racially-themed organizations in PFO, I'd like to see the players agree on what the racial stereotypes are and agree to play them straight 60%-80% of the time and subvert them the rest of the time. I don't think that would be fun for enough players to make it happen though.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, all halflings should have Puerto Rican accents.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
If there are a lot of racially-themed organizations in PFO, I'd like to see the players agree on what the racial stereotypes are and agree to play them straight 60%-80% of the time and subvert them the rest of the time. I don't think that would be fun for enough players to make it happen though.

While people can base their characters on whatever they want, I know I would be very offended if people told me to change it based on meeting or avoiding stereotypes. I will be playing a straight white male in a position of authority. This is because I am a straight white male in real life, and I like to base my characters loosely off myself. I generally make them tall bearded characters with blue eyes as well. And I am an experienced leader who enjoys being one, so that is why I am in a position of authority. That and the work I have put in to creating and promoting the idea of GL.

I'm not going to avoid who I am or what I want to play as in PFO just to send a social message. I hope many minorities rise to authority inside and outside my organization but I will not do anything to actively promote this any more than I would try to discourage it. That would be unfair to other straight white males.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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@ Jim Rudnick: Mass Effect dealt with this. The character Kaiden Alenko is a human being taught by a member of a species called turians. Humanity had recently been at war with the turians and relationships were cold. He highlights that one day, the terrible behavior on the part of his teacher taught him the aliens were simply people, for all their differences from humanity. Quite a few characters discuss how their species is stereotyped and how it affects them, and no small amount of choices on the part of the player have to deal with those relationships. Over the course of the last two "main" games, a racist human organization was portrayed as anti-heroic, only to later reveal their complete bastard nature. I'm fairly sure this was done intentionally, to draw in a Misaimed Fandom and then pull the rug out from under them. So in the ME 'verse, most members of a species at least share traits with their species, but they are individuals first. Anyone who'd say Aria T'Loak (a murderous, haughty crime lord) and Samara (an emotionally distant quasi-paladin) are similar characters because they're both Asari (all-female Space Elves) is missing a lot.

LA Noire uses our emotional reaction to a lot of racially charged situations. In one case, the murderer is Jewish, the victim is an anti-Semite, and it's just a few years past WWII. In other scenes, violence against women is used. One case features a 15 year old runaway who wants to be a star being given drugs and the casting couch (no further details needed). 1940's culture is portrayed with all its inequalities. The game uses all those period-appropriate prejudices to carefully emotionally engage the player as well as establish the protagonist's character. It colors the world around him to make it much more believable. In other words, LA Noire uses race and gender issues to help drive its narrative, characterize the NPCs, and make the player invest in the story. Bravo - and gutsy, though they did blow it with a few characters. The chief in particular is way over the top with his Irish Catholic cop routine.

Dragon Age used race something like LA Noire did. When we see the elves treated as a minority and oppressed, it's -supposed- to remind us of the ghettoization of minorities early in the 20th century and it's supposed to disturb us. If one plays as a non-human race, many of the comments the Grey Warden can make refer to this situation in game -and- capture some of what we might understand as the feelings of those peoples. For example, a City Elf protagonist can often be snide or abrupt to humans, presumably because they chafe at the treatment they have received before. The mage situation has some aspects of similar oppression, but it's not quite analogous. There are real reasons to fear the mages.

I'm not sure how much this really works in Golarion. Paizo has intentionally tried to make a world which is much more egalitarian in how it treats race, sexual orientation, and gender. It occasionally slips in some unintentional unfortunate implications, but I believe these are entirely accidental and incidental. Even the art shows far more representations of non-white characters than most RPGs.

Decius and Camlo have already said most of what I'd want, so I'll just add this. Whatever NPCs I run into, I should not be able to guess anything about them just by being told their race, sexual orientation, and gender. Those things should be independent of their identity as a figure in the River Kingdoms. That doesn't mean that a minority is always portrayed positively, only that they are made -people- first, members of a minority second. Again, think back to LA Noire's Jewish murderer. He's a minority character and a criminal, but a far cry from an offensive stereotype.

@ Avari: Pfft. Halflings aren't good enough for our accents.


Since players are going to use whatever color they want for their characters, the question for NPC's becomes this: What is the ethnic composition of the River Kingdoms (that still is the setting for PFO, right?)?

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
If there are a lot of racially-themed organizations in PFO, I'd like to see the players agree on what the racial stereotypes are and agree to play them straight 60%-80% of the time and subvert them the rest of the time. I don't think that would be fun for enough players to make it happen though.

While people can base their characters on whatever they want, I know I would be very offended if people told me to change it based on meeting or avoiding stereotypes. I will be playing a straight white male in a position of authority. This is because I am a straight white male in real life, and I like to base my characters loosely off myself. I generally make them tall bearded characters with blue eyes as well. And I am an experienced leader who enjoys being one, so that is why I am in a position of authority. That and the work I have put in to creating and promoting the idea of GL.

I'm not going to avoid who I am or what I want to play as in PFO just to send a social message. I hope many minorities rise to authority inside and outside my organization but I will not do anything to actively promote this any more than I would try to discourage it. That would be unfair to other straight white males.

No one's telling you to do otherwise, Andius - you don't need to defend your choice to play a straight white male character. That's not the issue at hand here. Decius was just speculating that it would be nice if not all PCs played elves, dwarves, or half-orcs stereotypically, as far as I can tell. And yes, I think it would be nice to see some subverted tropes in PCs' roleplay, but this is obviously not something we can control, or would want to. Back on topic:

Jim Rudnick wrote:
Camlo Alban, I appreciate and agree with your original post. I'm curious if you have examples to recommend where this has been handled well in other games? For reference, what are your thoughts on how these issues where handled in Dragonage Origins? Cheers

Hi Jim, I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Really, Decius and The Doc CC have said mostly everything I would want to. Mass Effect 3 is a good recent example of things done fairly well in a video game, like Doc says.

It's honestly so much easier to think of bad examples than good ones, particularly when it comes to portrayals of women. I'd recommend watching some of "feministfrequency"'s videos on YouTube for examples of tropes many video games fall prey to.

Golarion in many ways is already fairly egalitarian, at least from what I've read of the setting (which though not complete, is quite a bit). And Doc is right, the art for the game is substantially better in terms of representing a diverse group of people than many games to begin with. Seelah is one of my favorite iconics for this very reason; a black female paladin is something that's unheard of in many games. But in Golarion, it's a possibility. Not leaving out representations of people of color, LGBT individuals, and accurately portraying women goes a long way toward making a game come to life, and does a lot toward drawing in a broader audience of gamers.

Really, I'm just asking that you keep up the good work that Paizo has begun with its Pathfinder setting and characters.

ArgentumLupus wrote:
Since players are going to use whatever color they want for their characters, the question for NPC's becomes this: What is the ethnic composition of the River Kingdoms (that still is the setting for PFO, right?)?

True. The thing to think about is: Which ethnic groups are common in the region? What ethnic groups are likely to immigrate to the region? Why? For example, I'd imagine there are a number of escaped halfling slaves (and slaves in general) in the region due to the Six Freedoms that prohibit slavery. I'm less sure about why some of the human ethnic groups might be in the region, however. The RKs are rather Slavic in nature from what I've gathered, although Casamaron is quite nearby...

Goblin Squad Member

Camlo Alban wrote:


But it does increase the verisimilitude of the setting if not all of the NPCs are caricatures of fantasy tropes. That sentiment is borne more out of a desire for non-lazy character development than any sense of social justice.

My first thought in response to this was Tolkien's dwarves--what a pity it would have been to do artistic and aesthetic violence to work like that out of ideological commitments.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't know much about the setting, but would prefer if the NPC population actually mirrored that of the region in which it is set. Fortunately, both the major good and evil factions seem to be major international military organizations. This would allow great diversity in their ranks.

Adding diversity for no reason other than to have diversity really detracts from a setting. People need a believable reason to be where they are and doing what they are going.

But if it fits the region in the setting, go crazy.


it also kind of raises the question of the current rp npc cities and organazitions will they be represented. sorry to get off topic so let me add this. me and my wife both support the LGBT community and have always said everyone has equal rights to be miserable. lols, as for racial steriotypes whether real or fantasy I have a good amount of faith for Ryan to do what is right.

Goblin Squad Member

Hark wrote:
But if it fits the region in the setting, go crazy.

We're in luck then, as the River Kingdoms are so decentralized and open that the phrase, "Anyone, anywhere, at any time" points to the truth. Sure there will be a notable majority, but encountering a traveler/resident of a minority group shouldn't be unexpected, even if it may also be mildly surprising.

I think the appropriate action/attitude is a policy of mindfulness rather than deliberateness. Be mindful about how you are choosing to structure the content of the game, but any deliberate inclusion or exclusion risks cheapening the experience for all parties involved.

Goblin Squad Member

The Doc CC wrote:
@ Avari: Pfft. Halflings aren't good enough for our accents.

As much as i hate to admit it, Leguizamo would make a great Tasslehoff.

Goblin Squad Member

I certainly do not intend to be a domestic worker. You can get that thought out of your head!

-- Alantia Nightfall, Bard

The Exchange

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I think another important (although slightly unrelated) issue as far as portrayal and representation goes is just how closely will Goblinworks want to adhere to the almost standard appearance of female armor in MMORPGs.

I'm talking about stuff like how in many MMORPGs, the same suit of armor will look dramatically different on a male avatar and a female avatar. I'm not even talking boob-plate (which is it's own can of unrealistic and verisimillitude-destroying worms), but of the fact that a perfectly ordinary suit of chainmail suddenly turns into a two-piece bathing suit when worn by a female avatar.

And seriously? In the year of our lord 2012, that sort of pandering to the male audience shouldn't take precedence over parity and fairness in representation.

Goblin Squad Member

Ratpick wrote:

I think another important (although slightly unrelated) issue as far as portrayal and representation goes is just how closely will Goblinworks want to adhere to the almost standard appearance of female armor in MMORPGs.

I'm talking about stuff like how in many MMORPGs, the same suit of armor will look dramatically different on a male avatar and a female avatar. I'm not even talking boob-plate (which is it's own can of unrealistic and verisimillitude-destroying worms), but of the fact that a perfectly ordinary suit of chainmail suddenly turns into a two-piece bathing suit when worn by a female avatar.

And seriously? In the year of our lord 2012, that sort of pandering to the male audience shouldn't take precedence over parity and fairness in representation.

I will say I think that's one of the things TERA got right... the male's outfits were just as skimpy as the females xD

I'm all for skimpy outfits, but they should be OPTIONS, not "that's just how plate looks on a woman" no it isn't, it should look the same way it looks on a man. Like that person is a tank (as in a large blocky thing with a high metal content)

Goblin Squad Member

Ratpick wrote:
And seriously? In the year of our lord 2012, that sort of pandering to the male audience shouldn't take precedence over parity and fairness in representation.

While I could not in honesty say that the look of a chainmail bikini does not appeal under the right circumstances, full plate is far cooler, and generally much more appropriate.

I had to stop playing TERA a few hours into the game, because of how ridiculously stupid the "heavy" armour was on my female warrior. Thank gods for trials. :p

Goblin Squad Member

Slaunyeh wrote:
Ratpick wrote:
And seriously? In the year of our lord 2012, that sort of pandering to the male audience shouldn't take precedence over parity and fairness in representation.

While I could not in honesty say that the look of a chainmail bikini does not appeal under the right circumstances, full plate is far cooler, and generally much more appropriate.

I had to stop playing TERA a few hours into the game, because of how ridiculously stupid the "heavy" armour was on my female warrior. Thank gods for trials. :p

I decided that the armor was magical, and the less physical material there was, the more magical material in it xD

The less it covered, the more protection it provided xD

I quite enjoy the game, but... there isn't enough content, it's WAY too static and linear. But... there was good eye candy xD

Goblin Squad Member

I plan to have a gay main character in PFO, maybe a little bit of a stereotype to him, but really the character feels like he's playing it up himself, on purpose, I'm not quite sure what his motivation for doing that is yet, but it feels right for his personality. (I'm already FEELING the character... I just have to...well.. have the game to make him in xD)

Goblin Squad Member

Jameow wrote:
I decided that the armor was magical, and the less physical material there was, the more magical material in it xD

I couldn't imagine any of my characters wanting to let her ass hang out of her suit of full plate like that, no matter how magical it might be. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Slaunyeh wrote:
Jameow wrote:
I decided that the armor was magical, and the less physical material there was, the more magical material in it xD
I couldn't imagine any of my characters wanting to let her ass hang out of her suit of full plate like that, no matter how magical it might be. :)

I'll just call it a "moon shield" xD

Goblin Squad Member

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Let's step back for a quick second...

We're gamers...mostly pen and paper gamers...

Trust me, we're repping minorities solid.

LOL

Goblin Squad Member

I would like armour to look different on females and fit their curves appropriately. I do NOT want bikini-plate/chain/leather. Huge turn-off.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
I would like armour to look different on females and fit their curves appropriately. I do NOT want bikini-plate/chain/leather. Huge turn-off.

Drakhan...Gygax just rolled over in his grave. You take that back immediately! haha

Goblin Squad Member

As for boob plate, my wife actually enjoys that aspect of fantasy MMO's. Just saying. And it is really too hard to make it optional, so the dev's are going to simply decide on what portion of their market either type appeals to, and go with the larger market appeal.

Goblin Squad Member

ScoutmasterChip wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
I would like armour to look different on females and fit their curves appropriately. I do NOT want bikini-plate/chain/leather. Huge turn-off.
Drakhan...Gygax just rolled over in his grave. You take that back immediately! haha

And he can keep rolling!

Goblin Squad Member

My wife definitely likes playing a character that looks sexy, too... the same way I like playing beautiful characters.

What I'd really like to see is enough variety in clothing options that players have a pretty good chance of putting together the look they want.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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I'd be happy if I could actually have a character who fights with his left hand primary.

Goblin Squad Member

They could do it uo style, there was plate and there was "female plate". A woman could wear either, one was your big hunk of metal, the other was a low cut, fitted version. Same defence (at least in later updates) so it was cosmetic only.
If they're all player crafted anyway, there's no reason why they couldn't do it. Or something similar that is gender inclusive xD

Goblin Squad Member

Jameow wrote:

They could do it uo style, there was plate and there was "female plate". A woman could wear either, one was your big hunk of metal, the other was a low cut, fitted version. Same defence (at least in later updates) so it was cosmetic only.

If they're all player crafted anyway, there's no reason why they couldn't do it. Or something similar that is gender inclusive xD

Hey, as long as a man can wear either, too. Also, +1 on having a handedness option.

Goblin Squad Member

I hope they add a selection for ethnicity along with race, which changes the range and averages for physical features. Ulfen tend to look Norse, people from Vudra on Golarion tend to look like people from India on Earth, Keleshites are roughly Persian/Arabic, Garundi and Mwangi are dark and darker, and Tian Xia is basically east Asian.

How the sexes, gender roles/identities, and orientations are played is up to roleplaying, but I think GW folks are socially aware enough to make their NPC's fairly distributed and represented (though I think they'll leave romantic notions entirely up to players).

Handedness might make things look more interesting... I suppose that's a type privilege of perspective few even think about. How would that affect art resources? Could they simply mirror-image meshes and animations, as long as any text on a skin is not also reversed?

I'm an atheist/humanist and I hope I'm not forced to pick a patron deity for all my characters. I'm not saying my characters would all be like me, but my wizard's perspective is much like that of the Athar from Planescape or Sanya from 'The Dresden Files'. The existence of powerful beings doesn't necessarily mean they should be worshipped, and people can be and do good on their own, with no need of divine edicts or guidance. To be truly moral, one must be truly mortal. ;)

I'm also disabled, but apart from hoping GW provides good options for UI and control customization that I can use to work around my vision issues, I wouldn't expect them to have a lot of disability represented. I don't imagine I'll want to play a character with poor vision, or who that needs a cane to walk for any extended distance... Golarion is a much harsher place than Earth, and not being able to see danger or get away from it quickly would likely just get me killed a lot.

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:


I'm also disabled, but apart from hoping GW provides good options for UI and control customization that I can use to work around my vision issues, I wouldn't expect them to have a lot of disability represented. I don't imagine I'll want to play a character with poor vision, or who that needs a cane to walk for any extended distance... Golarion is a much harsher place than Earth, and not being able to see danger or get away from it quickly would likely just get me killed a lot.

I think for the most part that sort of thing doesnt require mechanics anyway, it's all role play, so there's nothing stopping you playing a squinty eyed, half deaf character who walks with a staff and has coughing fits, as long as they have an emote system that allows for custom emotes.

Granted, there won't be a limp animation or a hunchback model, but I think once you get beyond physical cosmetic options that aren't animations, you don't want to be adding new models for a drastically different shape anyway, i think it's one of the few times I would actually say it's not worth the resources, unless the art team literally has nothing to do!

I'm considering a kindly old man wizard/scholar/sage type who's actually an evil sadistic necromancer, so if I could go for the appearance of a slightly stopped old man I would, but I still think creating it is more effort than it's worth, given how little it adds to the game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

@ Jameow: If they went with the UO option, how would you want GW to handle the following situations?

Alice has Boob Plate. Barbara defeats her and can loot her armor. Barbara does not want Boob Plate.

Alice has Boob Plate. Barbara wants to buy it, and Alice is willing to sell it, but Barbara does not want Boob Plate.

Alice has Boob Plate, but now Bob loots/buys from her. Does he have to take a Magical Mankini? In other words, if there is a sexualized version and a realistic version of the armor, does it transfer when given back and forth between characters of differing sex? Or is the sexualized armor specific to the gender that wears it?

Cliff crafts plate. Does he have to declare he is crafting Boob Plate/Magical Mankini before her starts? Can the customer decide whether to change the appearance of the good at the time of purchase? Is the sexualized gear easier or harder to create?

Goblin Squad Member

You can't loot armour, but the purchasing situations stand.

Goblin Squad Member

Alteration by blacksmith between designs?

Apart from that, isnt it the same as if it were leather or ring mail or black or pink? If thru don't want it they won't take it or buy it.

Dark Archive

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Anyone female changing in boob plate for non boob plate should get suspended and possibly banned. That's griefing in my eyes

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