Books Falling Apart?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Gui_Shih wrote:

Has anyone else experienced faulty bindings in their adventure path copies or any other book? Thus far, half of my Council of Thieves adventure path has started falling apart. Entire sections of the books have just come loose and started falling out. Customer service was generous enough to send me another copy of The Sixfold Trial when I brought it to their attention, but this seems to be a recurring problem. I saw mention of similar circumstances in the Council of Thieves forum and the Second Darkness forum.

I've noticed The Twice-Damned Prince seems to use a different glue to bind the pages. I am just wondering if this is a known issue that has already been addressed or if the new glue was just coincidence.

Not with the smaller books (Adventure Paths) but yes, my Core Rulebook bindings are starting to come apart. Book gets heavily used but not mistreated. I even cover them with book covers to preserve the book.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I have not had any problems with the Core rules or the Bestiary. I have two copies of the Bestiary and about three Core Rules books around and I travel once a month with the Core Rules. No problems and I try not to abuse them. I am happy with the hardcover books. I hope the new campaign guide doesn't warp. I think that campaign guides cover is not as sturdy as the two core books.


Zexsudel wrote:
Not sure if the glues was changed but I've noticed a big difference in durability over the years.

I think they have been, since the books smell completely different. All the newer books (I didn't get "Legacy of Fire," but anything from the Council of Thieves time onward) all smell different than "Rise of the Runelords" or "Curse of the Crimson Throne" and the other books from that time.

Liberty's Edge

Clearly someone with money needs to invest money in Paizo so they can become their own printer.

The powerball is over 130 million dollars.

Paizo Employee CEO

I just wanted to add some other things for people to chew on. Books respond differently in different parts of the world. When I first got started in this industry, we printed in MIchigan and used a UV coating on the covers to add protection and just look cool. Well, lo and behold, we started to get complaints from people that their covers were rolling up. I saw pictures of books where the cover rolled up so tight it looked like a rolled newspaper! And yet none of the books that the company had did the same thing. So we investigated and found that certain areas had weather patterns that caused the UV coating the contract and this caused the cover to roll up. Other places didn't have this issue.

So you can see that print products will behave differently depending on where you live. It isn't a flaw in the printing or anything, just the way that a UV coating, or the glue used for binding, or the chemicals used to whiten the paper, or the cardboard used in a hardcover book, or other aspect of printing responds to local weather conditions. Heat, cold, humidity, water, pollution, and other factors can all cause a book to fail in one area and not in another. Sure, sometimes it is just a crappy printing job, plain and simple. But those tend to be few and far between.

Anyways, thanks to everyone for chiming in. It helps us to look into problems and make sure they don't happen again the future.

-Lisa


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jess Door wrote:
It might be interesting to to track down where the books in question were sold - was there some humidity problem in transit, for example.

In response to Jess's comment and to Lisa's above, I live in Greater Boston, which can be humid during the summer (when the core book shipped). The books shipped direct from Paizo, by UPS if I remember correctly.

That said, it's worth reiterating that my bindings have not come apart yet, I've just been following the thread with interest because my bindings feel pretty weak already for books that are less than a year old. I doubt they will last as long as most of my RPG hardcovers, a lot of which are in fine shape even after as much as 25 years.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Xpltvdeleted wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Please consider that in the current climate, Americans are your biggest base, and we're all about buying American, even if it costs more.
I'm inclined to disagree with you on this...

Agreed. I would not pay $60/issue, even for the awesomeness that was Legacy of Fire.

Also, I haven't noticed any problems with any of the Paizo/Pathfinder books I own.

-Skeld

Dark Archive

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Anyways, thanks to everyone for chiming in. It helps us to look into problems and make sure they don't happen again the future.

-Lisa

No problem; I'm a librarian who has some knowledge about bookbinding and how to handle books properly, but I have yet to see this happen with hardcover books, including the RPG books I've ordered from the States. Neither has it happened with any fiction/non-fiction books we have in the library collection -- I honestly can't recall a single instance during these years, and we order a lot from aboard.

Anyway, it's not a big issue for me, and it does not prevent me from using the books! :)


Some pages in the back of my Gods and Magic have loosened, as well as some pages from Howl of the Carrion King.

Shadow Lodge

I honestly haven't noticed any issues with any of my books, though now that I've said this they'll probably spontaneously combust or something, knowing my luck.


I haven't noticed any pages coming out of my Paizo books, but my Monster Manual 3.5e is basically held together by it's paper liners (I'm guessing bad glue) so I always try to be extra careful with with the handling of my hardback books, especially that monster that is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. I can just see the guts of it falling right out. (Again, nothing wrong with mine, I just worry.)

I keep most of my RPG books in a bookshelf in a walk-in closet but I'm worried because this closet is not climate-controlled and is the coldest place in the winter and warmest place in the summer. I've kept books there for years without a problem, but there's still concern. (The aforementioned Monster Manual is kept at my computer where I DM in Neverwinter Nights, and wasn't ever stored in the closet.)

So my question is, what is a good temperature at which to store books? I'm fairly certain my closet exceeds those ranges.

Dark Archive

Lisa Stevens wrote:
I just wanted to add some other things for people to chew on. Books respond differently in different parts of the world.

I had not considered this until now. I do not claim to be a shipping expert, however I have had friends that worked in large shipping facilities and, as I understand it, they are rarely climate-controlled. I wonder if the unusually cold winter, much of the country has had, may have compromised the bindings in some books.

I don't know if this would affect the hardcovers (mine are not falling apart--knock-on-wood), but surely the softcovers.

I'm half-tempted to try and microwave or steam some of my books to see if the bindings reset...

The Exchange

All I know is I'm sitting here looking at my 1E PHB, DMG, and MM, all with the 1st covers, not the later blue cover PHB etc, and they all look almost exactly as they did 25 years ago...

Pretty cool actually.

Liberty's Edge

I would like to add that I am pleased that the softcovers are remarkably soda-resistant considering they are softcover books.


Most of mine have been fine, but my Gods & Magic did fall apart with page chunks coming out.


My core rulebook has the same cover bowing and binding cracking as many have reported from other Paizo products. That said, all of the copies of both the core rulebook and the bestiary showed that to some degree at the local gaming store. What does that mean? Maybe something, maybe nothing... maybe something happened to that shipment, maybe this city ravages Paizo books...

I live in Calgary, which is the diametric opposite to the aformentioned "humid" conditions. Any less humid and you'd have a desert.


Asgetrion wrote:

However, my 'Bestiary' and 'Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook' are suffering from the covers starting to "bend" or "warp" out of shape;

Anyway, I just want to know if anyone else has had similar problems with his/her copy of 'Bestiary'?

I have noticed that tendency for covers of books in the past few years. My copy of the Campaign Setting is doing that cover-warp thing, and I've seen it happen to some 4E products my friend owns, as well as another friend's SR4 book.

Oddly enough the old 3.5 books are holding up fine, and they've seen.. well, use and abuse.


VoodooMike wrote:
I live in Calgary, which is the diametric opposite to the aformentioned "humid" conditions. Any less humid and you'd have a desert.

Oklahoma here, with frequently humid days and temperatures in the 100-110 Fahrenheit range in late summer to early autumn. My Paizo books are holding up much better than my 3.5 books did, contrary to others' experiences.


I have a stack of what's called chipboard, basically what hardcover stock is made from. I bought it several years ago in a frenzy of buying art supplies. (So...wonderful...!) This chipboard has gone from being evenly flat, to curved, to straight, to wrinkled (and all the way back again) over the span of the last nine years and multiple dry and wet seasons. Weather has a very very big effect on books (where do you think that wonderful musty old book smell comes from), and that does change depending on what part of the world you're from.

FWIW, I have two copies of the campaign setting. One was kept tightly packed, upright, in a bookshelf, while the other was kept laid out by my desk. The book left out (and by the window) has slightly warped.

Scarab Sages

I've had a chunk of pages fall out of two books - Gods and Magic, quite spontaneously something like the second time I opened it, and one volume of Second Darkness (the second one I think? Whichever has the god article on Cayden Cailean) which had been looking dubious for months and finally came out last week.

Gods and Magic Paizo kindly replaced for me, the other one I guess I'll just have to live with, I'm not intending to run SD again in the near future anyway :). Since we own hard copies of every Pathfinder book released except for Hollow's Last Hope (and two copies of the core rulebook, bestiary and campaign setting), it's not that bad odds really. I'm not precious with the books either, I don't throw them around or anything, but I carry them to work in an unpadded bag to read on the bus, every AP has been used in play except for CoT (a friend caught the superscriber bug and she's running it instead) and I run a weekly game away from home so my core rulebook and bestiary get transported, used, and generally battered about a lot and are showing no signs of falling apart yet!

Dark Archive

Me'mori wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

However, my 'Bestiary' and 'Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook' are suffering from the covers starting to "bend" or "warp" out of shape;

Anyway, I just want to know if anyone else has had similar problems with his/her copy of 'Bestiary'?

I have noticed that tendency for covers of books in the past few years. My copy of the Campaign Setting is doing that cover-warp thing, and I've seen it happen to some 4E products my friend owns, as well as another friend's SR4 book.

Oddly enough the old 3.5 books are holding up fine, and they've seen.. well, use and abuse.

That *is* a bit odd, isn't it? Because my 3E hardcover books are perfectly fine, too, and most of them *have* seen pretty heavy use down the years. I would hazard a guess that this problem relates to RPG printers (in general) starting to use cheaper/inferior materials in recent years.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just to add, out of my many Paizo books I've only ever had problems with Children of the Void and Gods and Magic. While there are a few pages that look more separated from each other that other pages, I believe that's the actual binding, not any problem with the books so far.


The only problem I've had is several pages of Howl of the Carrion King have come loose. However, I suspect that's from me holding it open a little to far during gaming sessions. My Campaign Setting's cover is a little warped, but I've seen lots of hardcovers warp and unwarp over the years with the changing seasons, so it's something I would normally never pay attention to. I've bought a lot of books from Paizo now, so I'd say that's a pretty good record overall!

As for books from earlier editions, I've had mixed experiences. Some have held together perfectly well and look like new after all these years, but some have completely fallen apart. I seem to recall my first edition Unearthed Arcana fell apart very quickly. My second edition books fell apart quickly, too, especially Tome of Magic. My 3.0 Player's Handbook was quite beat up by the time 3.5 came out, although it had seen a lot of use. The 3.5 book held together better though. My 3.5 Monster Manual is about to lose its spine, but otherwise, my third edition books are in good shape.

Liberty's Edge

I have recently made the switch to nearly paperless gaming. My netbook has a PDF reader and internet access, so I can download any Pathfinder publications from "My Dowloads" and use them on the go without any danger of exposing my precious hardcopies to oxygen/light/heat/cold/swarms of monkeys. It weighs less than the Core rule book too, so I can carry a full library with the option of accessing other material with a click.

The netbook was suprisingly affordable too. Bestbuy gave me $200 off the purchase price ($368 originally) for buying the internet package I needed anyways ($35/month). That'll tide me over until they work out all of the kinks with the iPad.

Liberty's Edge

Wow, clearly there was something wrong with the Gods and Magic print run.

Sovereign Court

My Gods and Magic is just fine and has been referenced more than any other of my Chronicles books(except Guide to Darkmoon Vale). I've already posted about the condition of my Core Rulebook elsewhere(it is still in a holding pattern, as in the front cover is just holding on;) ).


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Believe me, we've tried. But at the BEST prices I can get in the US of A, I would have to charge THREE TIMES the price to get the same profit margin as I can get in China. As someone who has been in this business since 1987 and has printed over 100 books in the US over the years, it pains me to say that. But it is a fact. And the quality of the books made in China is equal to the book quality made in the US, so that isn't even a factor. If you were paying more for a much higher quality book, then that would be one thing, but really, the quality is similar. But the price isn't. We'll keep looking. We are actually printing Planet Stories and the upcoming Pathfinder fiction in the US because the US printer actually creamed the prices from China. Maybe somebody will do the same for full-color books someday.

First, I'll say that I would (and have) done the exact same thing. Chinese manufacturing is *ridiculously* cheap compared to western manufacturing, and they have talented people who can move mountains for pennies. That said, quality can be inconsistent as many companies in china will cut corners without warning in order to increase their own profit margins as the only form of "quality control" in china at the moment is rote capitalism.

I'm now totally unsurprised about there being batches of varying manufacturing quality now.


Asgetrion wrote:
Me'mori wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

However, my 'Bestiary' and 'Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook' are suffering from the covers starting to "bend" or "warp" out of shape;

Anyway, I just want to know if anyone else has had similar problems with his/her copy of 'Bestiary'?

I have noticed that tendency for covers of books in the past few years. My copy of the Campaign Setting is doing that cover-warp thing, and I've seen it happen to some 4E products my friend owns, as well as another friend's SR4 book.

Oddly enough the old 3.5 books are holding up fine, and they've seen.. well, use and abuse.

That *is* a bit odd, isn't it? Because my 3E hardcover books are perfectly fine, too, and most of them *have* seen pretty heavy use down the years. I would hazard a guess that this problem relates to RPG printers (in general) starting to use cheaper/inferior materials in recent years.

Agree with all of the above. All my 3.5 hardcovers are perfect despite heavy use.

The cover "warping" started for me with Lost City of Barakus (Necromancer Games) and now again with the Pathfinder Campaign setting which Ill replace when the new one comes out. The PF setting book binding also sits about 1/4 inch away from the spine of the book unless I push it back into place. Im praying my Corebook and Bestiary dont do this.

Burnt Offerings binding is getting loose (like the book was opened too far) on the lower half on page 16-17. I dont open my books that far to protect the bindings, even on paperback novels (im a collector by nature) so I dont know how that happened. I think I even skipped the goblin in the closet encounter (put in an extended Shayliss captured by cemetary leftover goblins encounter instead), so I wouldnt even have need to have it opened to those pages.

I just bought the PDF of Burnt Offerings last friday right before my game so I dont have to open the book too much and I now leave my PC on when we play in case I need to refer to the pdf. Ill likely keep buying the pdfs as we progress through the AP.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Coridan wrote:
Wow, clearly there was something wrong with the Gods and Magic print run.

Gods and Magic does seem to have a slightly higher incidence of reported failure than most products, though there was no change in spec there compared to any of the similar products before or after. Still, we're talking about fractions of a percent of the print run.

Liberty's Edge

Just thought I would chime in here to say that while my Gods and Magic also fell apart, all of the other Paizo books in my collection are fine, so far.

Also as location has been mentioned as a possible variable, I live in the upper Midwest region of the US.


Asgetrion wrote:

Hmmm... weird, my copy of 'Gods & Magic' is just fine, and it was a used copy I ordered from Amazon.

However, my 'Bestiary' and 'Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook' are suffering from the covers starting to "bend" or "warp" out of shape; I've tried stacking books on top of them to get them back into shape, but it helps only temporarily (the covers start doing it again). Now, to me it tells that the covers are made of cardboard that is too thin for the contents (this is one of the reasons why thick older books had metal clasps and ties, in addition to cornerpieces and centerpieces). It doesn't surprise me that the 'Core Rulebook' would suffer from this (it *is* that thick), but I'm amazed that it has happened with 'Bestiary' as well. I can eliminate humidity as a potential cause, as the autumn and the winter have been extremely dry and cold around here. It may also be that the glue or the carboard is inferior in quality (I've some experience in bookbinding, but I'm by no means an expert in it).

Anyway, I just want to know if anyone else has had similar problems with his/her copy of 'Bestiary'?

I get the same thing with the Campaign Setting and the Bestiary. (And amen to the dry and cold winter - the football season here kicks off on Sunday, and last night the temperature dropped to -22 C.)


So far I haven't had any issues with books falling apart, but I'm pretty careful with them. The only problem I've ever seen since starting my subscription (at the start of Second Darkness) is AP #29 CoT "Mother of Flies" where the ink was a little too dark and made the page corners stick together. I thought it might be a fluke and didn't say anything until I saw this thread.

My Campaign Setting, Core Rulebook, and Bestiary are still fine. I don't have Gods and Magic so I can't comment on that.


We've been having more problems with the books coming to us misprinted than anything, to be perfectly honest (extra sets of certain pages, and missing others). But the Core book, DMG, and the Bestiary are starting to "crack" in the glue and the covers are starting to wrap. The most frustrating thing is that we treat these books like hallowed relics of a bygone age. Slight exaggeration, but my point, I believe, is made. Perhaps in the future PAIZO could print the books on stainless steel, or perhaps adamantine. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Ai N. Stein wrote:
We've been having more problems with the books coming to us misprinted than anything, to be perfectly honest (extra sets of certain pages, and missing others). But the Core book, DMG, and the Bestiary are starting to "crack" in the glue and the covers are starting to wrap. The most frustrating thing is that we treat these books like hallowed relics of a bygone age. Slight exaggeration, but my point, I believe, is made. Perhaps in the future PAIZO could print the books on stainless steel, or perhaps adamantine. ;)

I think it was Life After People that said stone was our best writing implement for long term recordings that we ever developed.

I can't imagine the shipping costs of even a character sheet chiseled in stone.

Scarab Sages

Well, I had pages of, then the whole chapter, come out of Six Fold Trials. BEFORE we had even done the trials. I'm a little hard on the books, but not terribly.

Not long into What Lies in Dust did I have pages start to partially come out. I'm now much more careful with them.

Gods & magic also had a section fall out, but NONE of the hardcovers have had problems. We use the rulebooks a whole lot.

I didn't have any problems with the Crown of the Kobold King modules, or Bastards of Erebus.

I live in Texas - so it is humid - and I've read them while in the tub. - so I don't think that humidifing them will "reset" them.

Scarab Sages

Snakey wrote:


My 3.5 monster manual looks awful, it has scratch marks, bite marks, dents, but the inside is pristine along with the binding.

The monsters are supposed to be *inside* the book, not chewing on it! :)


If my Core Rules or my bestiary start fall apart I'm going to get them rebound in leather form book binder I know.


JTStorm wrote:
The Pathfinder Campaign book I have has covers that are bowing outward. I keep the books kept vertical almost all of the time, and do not leave them out open.

This is the only problem I've had so far (bulging covers on the campaign book).

Certainly I haven't seen anything as bad as my AD&D Unearthed Arcana!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is the only problem I've had so far (bulging covers on the campaign book).

Certainly I haven't seen anything as bad as my AD&D Unearthed Arcana!

I have a star wars saga book that is doing the same. I bought it, cracked the cover a few times, shelved it, and never read it. Hopefully the stack of books I placed on top of it will retard the process some.

Grand Lodge

My copy of Gods & Magic is just fine. In fact I haven't had any problem with any of the paperback books at all. My PFRPG cover started curling very soon after I received it but it doesn't bother me any. No problem with any other hardcover books other than that.

So, something I'm just curious about is WHY is it cheaper to print in China than the US. I would have thought shipping costs and import taxes etc would have made China too expensive. My only experience with ordering overseas was with a adding SLBM company in Australia. Great quality but shipping costs were prohibitive and the shipping time was unbearable.

Dark Archive

Kajehase wrote:
I get the same thing with the Campaign Setting and the Bestiary. (And amen to the dry and cold winter - the football season here kicks off on Sunday, and last night the temperature dropped to -22 C.)

Hah! Looks you have it warm over there... this winter we've constantly had temperatures between -20 and -25 during the day -- plus the absolutely freezing wind, to boot. All in all it's been the coldest winter I can recall.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Krome wrote:
So, something I'm just curious about is WHY is it cheaper to print in China than the US. I would have thought shipping costs and import taxes etc would have made China too expensive.

I suspect that doctoral theses have been written on that topic.

Liberty's Edge

Xuttah wrote:

I have recently made the switch to nearly paperless gaming.

<snip>

That'll tide me over until they work out all of the kinks with the iPad.

I think I would be farther down the line toward paperless gaming if more companies published their PDF's like Super Genius Games -- landscape instead of portrait. That makes a HUGE difference to me.

Bestiary and Core Rulebook are holding up fine so far. I have mostly used the PDFs for Gods and Magic and Campaign Setting -- so they haven't been off my shelf much.

The gaming books I've had the most trouble with as far as binding goes have been the Arcanis books from Paradigm. It was almost embarrassing to sit around a Living Arcanis table back when that campaign was going strong -- pages flying everywhere. I haven't used my Witchhunter book enough to know how well it's going to hold up.

Oh, my Shadowrun 20th Anniversary book is holding up great, but it's upside down. When you open the front cover, you see the back page upside down. I am keeping it, because I will never get it mixed up with anyone else's! I think it's cool!

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