I would like to convince my group to switch to 4E. I have already talked to our DM and he is okay with the idea I just need to sell my group on it. How would you argue in favor of 4E to convince a few people who have had a bad experience with it to give the game another try?
I think it might help if you gave us some more information. When you say that they had a bad experience with 4e, what do you mean? What is your group's main opposition to 4e?
From my experience, people who don't want to switch to 4e generally fall into two camps:
1. People who spent a lot of money on 3rd edition and therefore feel too invested in that edition.
2. People who don't like the style and feel of 4e (this is the "it's just like a video game" camp.)
The problem they have had is that combat is unwieldy for them with all the powers and such. I have tried to point out that there are still a lot less options then a 3.5 spellcaster, but they don't like having to turn to the book every round to look up what their power dies. None of them have anything invested in 3.5, they all mooch off our DM, and they all play video games like DotA and WoW when they are not playing D&D.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
If they've had a bad experience, you shouldn't try to sell them on it. Honestly, speaking as someone who had bad experiences with 4e, the only thing that is going to give them a different opinion is a GREAT experience.
You've got to run a game for them that is both awesome and highlights all the things they think they hate about it in a good light. Find out exactly what they hated and give them gold. Honestly, that's the only way you'll change their minds.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I have tried to point out that there are still a lot less options then a 3.5 spellcaster, but they don't like having to turn to the book every round to look up what their power dies.
Our group discovered that printing out "Power Sheets" for each character took a lot of the pain out of this process. Everyone had a cheat sheet that listed their character's powers and full descriptions along with their character sheet. I believe these are built-in to the WotC DDI character sheet generator program that they have on their website. Of course, you have to have a DDI subscription to use it. You could also just photocopy the relevant pages out of the book.
The problem they have had is that combat is unwieldy for them with all the powers and such. I have tried to point out that there are still a lot less options then a 3.5 spellcaster, but they don't like having to turn to the book every round to look up what their power dies. None of them have anything invested in 3.5, they all mooch off our DM, and they all play video games like DotA and WoW when they are not playing D&D.
Generate characters and create power cards for each character so that they dont have to look at the book and have the info easily to hand. Colour code each card for at wills/dailys etc so they see exactly what they can and when.
If they've had a bad experience, you shouldn't try to sell them on it.
James I understand your point, but it's not helpful. I asked for positive suggestions not negative ones.
I have tried to point out that there are still a lot less options then a 3.5 spellcaster, but they don't like having to turn to the book every round to look up what their power dies.Our group discovered that printing out "Power Sheets" for each character took a lot of the pain out of this process. Everyone had a cheat sheet that listed their character's powers and full descriptions along with their character sheet. I believe these are built-in to the WotC DDI character sheet generator program that they have on their website. Of course, you have to have a DDI subscription to use it. You could also just photocopy the relevant pages out of the book.
Our DM has offered to photocopy the pages. Doesn't the character generator have a level 1-3 free preview?
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Our DM has offered to photocopy the pages. Doesn't the character generator have a level 1-3 free preview?
Yes, I believe that is still available. I'm not certain if the preview version has ALL of the available powers and whatnot in it, but if you're not planning to use anything outside the PHB, it should be perfect. Of course, once you get past level 3, you're on your own again. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
James I understand your point, but it's not helpful. I asked for positive suggestions not negative ones.
I'm trying to offer the best advice I know of, which is once someone has had a bad experience, it's not likely that you'll be able to change their mind based only on arguments, no matter how good. You've got to be able to show them that it's fun. You need to get them to agree to allow you to run a game for them, one night, one time and run it well, so that they really enjoy it. At that point, once they've had fun, they'll be more likely to be open to doing it again.
|
|
As the DM in question, I am also eager to see what you guys comeup with, as I have invested a lot of money in 4E products. I have found ways to incorporate a lot of it into my PFRPG game, but the more I read over 4E the more I find myself likeing the system. I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.
Oh, but it DOES. As long as ONE person has a DDI subscription, you can log into your account and sit down with each player, using the character generator to build the character they want and print out a totally comprehensive character sheet complete with power list, auto-calculated skill totals, etc. Honestly, I'm not much of a fan of 4E, but the DDI character generator alone made 90% of my concerns melt away.
Tell them when they reach 5th level they get cake.
You have to understand that even if there is a chance for them to convert to the new system, the point is not to spit on the older system.
If they played for years with that system, the last thing they want is to be laughed at and to be asked to burn their books.
No game, whatever how new, fresh or cool it may be could compete with fond memories of years of gaming.
So the idea is to avoid the competition between the two systems.
If the players are fond of another system (D&D or anything else), take them out of their comfort zone.
A good way to do that is to take the players in a trip for new horizons.
As they will discover new worlds, they will assimilate new rules along the way.
A good example is to switch from a heroic fantasy game to a sci-fi one.
Even while staying in D&D this is possible, by switching worlds. Eberron is very different from, say, Abeir-Toril.
Use the first adventure as a demo, a exploration trip in the new system.
Drop some "rules beacons" in the scenario, to illustrate how the new system will deal with a specific situation, like a combat on a special terrain, a magic duel or a skill challenge.
I have tried to point out that there are still a lot less options then a 3.5 spellcaster, but they don't like having to turn to the book every round to look up what their power dies.Our group discovered that printing out "Power Sheets" for each character took a lot of the pain out of this process. Everyone had a cheat sheet that listed their character's powers and full descriptions along with their character sheet. I believe these are built-in to the WotC DDI character sheet generator program that they have on their website. Of course, you have to have a DDI subscription to use it. You could also just photocopy the relevant pages out of the book.
Same here, Pre producing the powers sheets are the way that seemed to be the best for me and my group. The fact is the powers are either a group of specialist warrior techniques for martial characters( fighters\rogues\warlords etc), spells for wizards or godly blessings for clerics.
The Martial techniques can be seen\interpreted in hundreds of ways for each individual character( just use the descripter as a guidance to what WOTC view the technique to be like).The basic mechanic once fully understood makes anything possible but your players need to experience the game to at least 6th level to start seeing the potential with this system.
My mate was pretty much against 4th ed initially but now prefers 4th Edition to 3rd ed and Pathfinder(we both still enjoy pathfinder campaigns though, just prefer 4th ed now).
Overall get them to just try through at least 10 levels which'll give the DM time to get used to it and the players. If they still don't like it pick up the previous editions(whether 3.5 or PF) and happy gaming.
I was the first DM to run the first 3rd edition campaign which converted to 3.5 and I thoroughly loved it( epic was an bit of an issue but nevermind) so I would rather not see arguements over 'my systems better than yours' and another flame war. Better to enjoy both but at least to give new systems a thorough test with a short (10th level minimum)campaign then decide what system to run campaigns in depending on the flavour of the campaign.
Even in 3rd edition we were constantly finding different rules that applied to situations when the PC's were 10th level. It doesn't matter as long as the games fun.
It all boils down to giving the new system a fair shake. Regardless of the system, you will be flipping pages back and forth to rules, feats, powers, etc. as you learn the game. They had to do it for 3.5, so why is 4E different.
Even if you have a character generator, have the players write down all the powers and feats down on a character sheet. If they don't have the books, and if you rely on the DDI generator, there is less opportunity for the characters to bond with the new system.
I remember when I first played D&D the books were constantly read and it takes time to absorb everything.
In addition, they can not take all the comments about 4E on face value, as they have to be willing to learn the system from their viewpoint. 4E has more choices available now, versus when it was first released.
As a DM, anything you can do to make game play smooth is a plus, so try to break from the usual trends and try a new world, different setting, etc. Make sure everyone understands how to track conditions, and make sure players are in the habit of thinking how their powers apply to a certain situation and roleplay it. Players should also be aware of other characters powers, as this creates alot of dynamic situations.
As the DM in question, I am also eager to see what you guys comeup with, as I have invested a lot of money in 4E products. I have found ways to incorporate a lot of it into my PFRPG game, but the more I read over 4E the more I find myself likeing the system. I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.
One thing that has been caused divided opinion is the HP's of the creatures being too high. Personally I vary the HP's depending on how long the encounter should be but up the opponents damage dealing a bit( as advised by other DM's).
Some people have found the HP's not to be an issue, other have. Just a heads up to make you aware.
I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.Oh, but it DOES.
Also, each DDi subscription gets you 5 downloads of the software per month. My group shares 2 subscriptions and we all download the updates every month. Heck, your group could share a one-month subscription and download the character builder onto 5 people's PCs.
And everyone else has said it, but I will too. The character builder software is awesome. It makes the game complete, and should address perfectly the problem that your group seems to have. The character sheets it prints out are so complete, that I don't even bring my PHB to game sessions every more.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I would consider looking into some type of markers for your miniatures to track things like save ends status effects, bloodied, etc. My group has a bunch of the alea tools disks, each of which are labeled for a different condition (dazed, stunned, ongoing damage, etc). That said, you can probably get away with 3-5 different markers: bloodied, bad effect (save ends), bad effect (temporary), good effect (long term), good effect (temporary). Having those disks greatly simplifies combat for us.
The other thing you might do is to have the DM sit down prior to the game and carefully read the character powers, focusing on the flavor. One problem I find with 4e is that there is an imperfect match of flavor to mechanics. Having the DM think in advance about the abilities the characters will use and how to best describe those abilities might help in conveying the feeling of the battle.
The power cards are also invaluable. I'd definitely use those if you aren't already. That should help speed up play a great deal.
One thing that has been caused divided opinion is the HP's of the creatures being too high.
I can agree with this. The DM needs to be very careful about how they use certain monsters - especially Brutes and Soldiers.
Brutes have high HP, low AC, low attack bonus, high damage output. In play, they often turn into whiff-machines that the players need to spend a lot of time smacking to take down. A fight against a group of brutes often turns into a very boring grind.
Tip: Pair a Brute with a Lurker or Skirmisher. The supporting guy can try to get around to the flank of the Brute's target. This will give the brute an improved chance to hit due to combat advantage. Plus, many Skirmishers and Lurkers have special abilities that trigger when they have combat advantage!
Soldiers have mid HP, high AC, high attack bonus, low damage output. Many soldiers have additional abilities that trigger when they hit an enemy, such as a mark or immobilize effect. Fights against soldiers can get grindy, because the party will need to spend a lot of attacks to bring down the soldiers, and the soldiers effects will limit the party's options, while not doing much damage.
Tip: Pair Soldiers with Artillery. I like to think of this as the "Quarterback and Lineman" approach. The Soldier is the blocking Lineman up front, the Artillery is a glass cannon Quarterback. As long as the soldier can protect the artillery, the pair can pump out good damage, but if the party can overwhelm the soldier with a quick rush, someone should be able to get past him and take down the artillery.
|
I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.Oh, but it DOES. As long as ONE person has a DDI subscription, you can log into your account and sit down with each player, using the character generator to build the character they want and print out a totally comprehensive character sheet complete with power list, auto-calculated skill totals, etc. Honestly, I'm not much of a fan of 4E, but the DDI character generator alone made 90% of my concerns melt away.
I second this (hey, Fatey, didn't know you played 4e). DDI is a godsend. If you give them a character it pretty much has everything they need. All the powers are there. I have a player who does not own any books. I created his character in DDI, gave it to him and he plays along very happily and with no problem with comprehension at all. All the powers can be daunting without a proper character sheet with all the bells and whistles, but DDI is a godsend for this.
Also, each DDi subscription gets you 5 downloads of the software per month. My group shares 2 subscriptions and we all download the updates every month. Heck, your group could share a one-month subscription and download the character builder onto 5 people's PCs.
However, I suspect that this is something prohibited by the agreement when you sign up for D&D Insider. I would suggest that one check the agreement, if they have not already, to determine if this is a right given or blocked by the terms. If it is not something allowed by the agreement, then I would say that one should not do it, no matter how one feels it should work.
However, I suspect that this is something prohibited by the agreement when you sign up for D&D Insider. I would suggest that one check the agreement, if they have not already, to determine if this is a right given or blocked by the terms.
Caveat: I glanced over the agreement briefly, and I'm not a lawyer. However, it says that memberships belong to the person who purchased the membership, and that you can't use someone else's membership. So, if I purchase the membership, that gives me 5 downloads a month. It looks like it's up to me to choose how I want to spend those 5 downloads. You don't need to log in or use a membership in order to use the software, either. Only to download it.
However, I suspect that this is something prohibited by the agreement when you sign up for D&D Insider. I would suggest that one check the agreement, if they have not already, to determine if this is a right given or blocked by the terms.Caveat: I glanced over the agreement briefly, and I'm not a lawyer. However, it says that memberships belong to the person who purchased the membership, and that you can't use someone else's membership. So, if I purchase the membership, that gives me 5 downloads a month. It looks like it's up to me to choose how I want to spend those 5 downloads. You don't need to log in or use a membership in order to use the software, either. Only to download it.
I agree that might be possible under my reading of the license.
However, it seems that "sharing" a subscription among a group may be barred due to the restriction.
Either way, I just wanted to note that one should check with the agreements one is making before (and hopefully when one purchases/installs it as well) following up on suggestions to share a membership or a computer program.
--
As for the actual topic, I do agree with James Martin. I think the best thing to do would be to run a short game rather than moving straight to convincing them to convert to 4e. Ask everyone about it, and make some sample characters [including pages describing their powers] that people can use if they don't want to spend the time making characters themselves.
I would suggest looking around for the next D&D Game Day or other event, and asking the group join that event for the day as they already have an adventure and ready characters with the powers listed out.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
Here are a couple of things I implemented in my 4e game that really helped:
1. DDI/Character Builder. I use DDI compendium to print out monster sheets for all my monsters so I can have them in front of me when I play -- no flipping through books. My players use Character Builder to build their characters and print out/cut out the power cards so they have the most important numbers in front of them. Being able to glance at your encounter power card and see, ok it's +8 attack, 1d8 +4 damage, and I can shift two squares is nice. And then being able to flip it over after you use it is very useful.
2. Read Mike Mearls's series of articles on skill challenges before you run them. I found the rules for skill challenges in the DMG to be rather clunky, but the articles really helped immensely. Also do a search for Keith Baker's comments on skill challenges he posted on his blog. I found that to be greatly useful as well.
3. Physically track conditions. You could use counters or markers you place on the minis or some other method. I use a white board for initiative and write the conditions on that. Well, actually, I made magnet icons for each condition (blinded/dazed/bloodied/marked/etc), but that's a bit OCD. Writing bloodied or marked on the board should also do the same thing.
4. Emphasize that 4e is still D&D. Everything should still be framed as fiction. What I mean by this is that just because some of the mechanics are more modular and more spelled out, the PCs should still be able to try many different options, and still be able to look at the game from a role-playing perspective. I've noticed that the DM has to pay attention to new 4e players to make sure the game mechanics don't take center stage. It's easy for players to think the only thing they can do is what is on their power cards, but the game is still the same, and you'll still need to try to allow cool stunts using skills, powers, and whatever other tools are at your disposal. Sometimes all the conditions, the grid, and the powers seem to restrict the number of choices, but it's important to make sure the fiction of the game is as vivid and compelling as it ever was.
Slight threadjack, but why did the Copper Dragon get such love in MM2? It seems like it got as many pictures as all the other metallic dragons combined. [/threadjack]
All secrets are revealed on the credits page!
Art Director: Copper Dragon
Astonishment!
If they've had a bad experience, you shouldn't try to sell them on it.James I understand your point, but it's not helpful. I asked for positive suggestions not negative ones.
James has actually made a good point. There are steps you can take that will help improve the experience but fundamentally your going to have to sell them on the game by providing a fun experience during play.
|
What we found with 4e as compared to 3.xe was that the people who spend days optimising characters in 4e end up being not too much more powerful than those who spends those days writing an entire life story of "Sir Roger the Slightly Annoyed" and choose feats/powers by reading tea leaves.
Most important thing about 4e (at the moment) I believe - character balance (not perfect but much better than 3.5e). My last group that lasted 2e --> 3.5e blew apart due to the "mechanist's" totally stealing the show from the "players".
After the messy group break up we either tried again with 2e (excellent campaign was had with this system) or 4e. Due to many of us having spent money on 4e (then initially declared it the Pariah of RPG's and banishing it to the cupboard) we gave 4e a good go. Honestly, 4e has got most of us back together and everyone is able to contribute. Meaning from a weekly 6 hour b&&#*ing-fest about where that "extra" +1 came from we are actually playing D&D and having fun.
S.
PS: 2e had it right...
Our DM has offered to photocopy the pages. Doesn't the character generator have a level 1-3 free preview?
It does - I suggest you find someone with a colour printer and print their characters in colour if that is at all possible. Good ascetics makes the game more appealing, just ask the Paizo staff. In fact I'd go the extra mile and create power cards. If anyne in the group plays Magic then using some throw away commons as backing as well as getting sleeves is a good plan.
As the DM in question, I am also eager to see what you guys comeup with, as I have invested a lot of money in 4E products. I have found ways to incorporate a lot of it into my PFRPG game, but the more I read over 4E the more I find myself likeing the system. I do hve a DDI subscription, but that doesn't help the players.
Well I'm gratified to find that Tiny Tina's DM is on board. I was concerned for a second there that she wanted to play but the DM was lacklustre as there is no chance of providing a good experience if the DM is not really trying to show off the game in the best light.
Another expirement you can attempt is to have everyone DM once you agree upon a world and 4E as the system, even if all they do is a mini-scenario. This allows everyone to contribute beyond the player experience, and learn the rules in a different light. It saved me from having to DM full time.
But I think we can offer more advice, if all you do is get the group together and run a couple sessions, then come back with questions.
That's when you offer to take over the DM chair for yourself! Give the poor guy a break - he could probably use it after DMing 3rd edition for so long!
As for the actual topic, I do agree with James Martin. I think the best thing to do would be to run a short game rather than moving straight to convincing them to convert to 4e. Ask everyone about it, and make some sample characters [including pages describing their powers] that people can use if they don't want to spend the time making characters themselves.I would suggest looking around for the next D&D Game Day or other event, and asking the group join that event for the day as they already have an adventure and ready characters with the powers listed out.
My problem with something like a game day or a two session one off is that its not really ideal in terms of getting players into the game. The first few sessions are almost surely going to be clunky, nature of learning a new system. They need a chance to learn to love their characters and get used to the mechanics.
I'd think it'd be best to get the players to agree to something resembling a short campaign. Get them to play to 3rd level or some such and then reconsider the issue once everyone has had a chance to play enough to grasp the system.
Tell them when they reach 5th level they get cake.
THE CAKE IS A LIE!
I don't like 4e, I wouldn't play it for the world. You don't know me, so you don't have much of an idea why that is (you might have if you have read enough of my posts).
But I'll give it a shot, one player to another:
The best way to get it to play once again is to tell them that you'd really like them to try again because you like it. Tell them they'd do you a big favour if they tried it just once, for a one-shot. Try to entice them by saying you'll do something for them you're really good at and they really like you to do. I don't know you, but it could be cookies. Or lasagne. I'm trying to avoid cake, because, as everyone knows, it's a lie. ;-) You'll know what you do best.
If they refuse then, you won't get them to play the game, anyway.
And if you get them to play it just once more, present them with the best you can do, game-wise.
Try to emphasize the things you think are best about the game.
Plus, you know your friends best. What do they want in a roleplaying game? What do they hate? Try to show them that 4e can have all the good stuff they like, and doesn't need the bad stuff (assuming 4e can do it - again, you know your friends best, and you probably know the game better than me)
I know many like the game to Diablo and World of Warcraft and state their dislike because of that. You also say that they do play WoW. That could be the reason they don't want to play 4e: Maybe they think that this game is too much like the computer game they are playing all the time, anyway.
So don't try to show them that 4e can do the nice stuff WoW can do, because no P&P game can win against a computer game when it competes against the computer game's strengths.
I know people that play WoW - quite a lot - and they don't like 4e because they think it's just like WoW - there's some stuff in there that's rules for rules sake, and the races/classes are kinda limited and streamlined to make them faster to play. WoW has the same issues, but at least, it has a computer that will automatically and continuously do all the calculations for you, so they can focus on the action, and there's also nice graphics and sound.
If your friends are the same, you need to show them that 4e can be different.
Good luck.
|
|
Actually KaeYoss reminded me of one more thing. Play 4e as you would any other RPG. Mechanics at the end of the day make very little difference to a role-playing session. You can tell the same great stories by flipping a coin and abstracting more if you like. The rules are there to "decide things" not do the role-playing for you. 4e is EXACTLY like 3e - stupid amounts of hp's making it a "Hollywood heroes" game. So DM 4e as you would 3e and you're doing fine. Then again as KaeYoss said you know your friends best. If they are interested in being part of an interactive story then 4e will serve you as well as 3e (or any other RPG game for that matter), however, if they are interested in "building optimised characters to defeat the DM" then 4e will not hold their interest.
If you have DDI then print out everyone's characters with power/item cards and the books become something to stop the table wobbling during play.
S.
PS: Most fantasy games play like WOW, mainly due to WOW being based on fantasy games. For me 4e plays like 3e/2e/1e/OD&D - well at least the adventures I have been part of. Different mechanics of course, but same basic premise.
My problem with something like a game day or a two session one off is that its not really ideal in terms of getting players into the game. The first few sessions are almost surely going to be clunky, nature of learning a new system. They need a chance to learn to love their characters and get used to the mechanics.
I'd think it'd be best to get the players to agree to something resembling a short campaign. Get them to play to 3rd level or some such and then reconsider the issue once everyone has had a chance to play enough to grasp the system.
I agree. I think that a short campaign would be the best option.
Although, I still so love the current character sheets at the Game Day.
So pretty.
And I imagine it would be easier for the event to occur if they all get miniatures for going.
I agree. I think that a short campaign would be the best option.
Longer I reckon, up to 5th level at least but i'd speed up 1st and 2nd level advancement.
I agree. I think that a short campaign would be the best option.Longer I reckon, up to 5th level at least but i'd speed up 1st and 2nd level advancement.
I doubt that if a group doesn't want to continue with a system after a month of playing and that the two or three months that I think would be necessary to get to 5th level would no produce any different results.
I believe it would just make it harder for the game to get started because of the amount of time it would require.
I agree. I think that a short campaign would be the best option.Longer I reckon, up to 5th level at least but i'd speed up 1st and 2nd level advancement.
I understand why you want to take them to 5th (really a whole campaign is ideal). Certianly some of the strengths of 4E don't even kick in until higher levels where there is a real contrast to what late era 3.5 high level battles looked like. Still I think Blazej is right - you have until maybe 3rd to win them over. After that chances are your just out of luck.
Now if they are on the fence by all means try and convince them to continue as I sincerely believe that 4Es strengths tend to come out more as time goes on and its weak points are often fairly easily corrected by a DM once he recognizes the problem. By which I mean the weak points usually don't 'bleed' over into other parts of the game and can be handled in a modular fashion. Put another way the experience tends to improve with mastery by the players and the DM, obviously this is true to some extent with any game system but its particularly true with 4E as there was clearly a great deal of thought put into making the game function over a large range of play.
However, I suspect that this is something prohibited by the agreement when you sign up for D&D Insider. I would suggest that one check the agreement, if they have not already, to determine if this is a right given or blocked by the terms.Caveat: I glanced over the agreement briefly, and I'm not a lawyer. However, it says that memberships belong to the person who purchased the membership, and that you can't use someone else's membership. So, if I purchase the membership, that gives me 5 downloads a month. It looks like it's up to me to choose how I want to spend those 5 downloads. You don't need to log in or use a membership in order to use the software, either. Only to download it.I agree that might be possible under my reading of the license.
However, it seems that "sharing" a subscription among a group may be barred due to the restriction.
Either way, I just wanted to note that one should check with the agreements one is making before (and hopefully when one purchases/installs it as well) following up on suggestions to share a membership or a computer program.
Although it allows five downloads per month, part of the terms of the contract are that you only have it installed on one machine at a time. In other words - sharing an account is not allowed.
----------------------------
With regard to the original topic:
If they have had "bad 4th edition experiences" I suspect they tried to play it like 3.5. It took us quite some time to get out of the mindset of "We've simulated a whole world and the PCs are part of that simulation" and into "We're telling a story". A surprising number of the things we didnt like about 4th edition turned out to be mental disonance at the whole "things are different for PCs/Monsters" - once we embraced that and stopped trying to think about the monsters as like us but different, it made much more sense.
I think it also takes a narrative DM to bring out the best in 4th edition combats. Lots of "you're hit for 14 damage and you're slid one square" make it feel like a boardgame - unfortunately, that's what it sounded like when we were learning the rules and trying not to forget anything. Now we translate combat results into descriptive language rather than focussing on the mechanics and the effects dont seem so jarring and silly. (Although powers like Come and Get It are still very hard to justify in my mind).
Unfortunately, they're not going to see what is (imo) the best thing about 4th edition - how much easier it is to DM. The reduced time prep and ease of running encounters mean that, once the mechanics begin to come without having to look them up, you can spend more time on making battles exciting and keeping the story rolling along. If they're not really into it, I doubt that's really going to motivate them much - nonetheless it might be worth pointing out to them this as a longterm benefit once everyone has mastered the new rules.
I agree. I think that a short campaign would be the best option.Longer I reckon, up to 5th level at least but i'd speed up 1st and 2nd level advancement.I doubt that if a group doesn't want to continue with a system after a month of playing and that the two or three months that I think would be necessary to get to 5th level would no produce any different results.
I believe it would just make it harder for the game to get started because of the amount of time it would require.
One of my mates, who initially was pretty dubious about 4th ed told me as follows:-
"When the campaign first started, the limited AT-WILLs, Encounter and Daily options plus he was finding the class too limited( believe me I was hearing these statements). By 3rd level he was seeing the changes and by play experience seeing the plus's of 4th ed.
He said by 5th level, he was so happy with it he prefered 4th edition to it's predecessor."
Id take the players quickly up through 1st, 2nd levels( a level per game) then slow down at 3rd, 4th and onto 5th. It'll give the DM a chance to get to grips with the system as well as give the players a good play test.
Although it allows five downloads per month, part of the terms of the contract are that you only have it installed on one machine at a time. In other words - sharing an account is not allowed.
Hm, I didn't see that. I'll have to double-check. If that's the case, I guess we'll be getting separate accounts... or just install it on one person's laptop and keep all our characters on that one laptop. I was thinking about getting my own account anyway to get access to some of the online tools.
Unfortunately, they're not going to see what is (imo) the best thing about 4th edition - how much easier it is to DM.
So true. I can't imagine ever DMing a 3rd edition game again.
|
I'm actually planning to start them at third. That is where all of our campigns with this group have started.
I think that may actually help. Only having one encounter power at 1st and 2nd levels makes those some of the toughest levels for getting into the game, in my opinion. Having 2 encounter powers might make them feel less straightjacketed.
I'm actually planning to start them at third. That is where all of our campigns with this group have started.I think that may actually help. Only having one encounter power at 1st and 2nd levels makes those some of the toughest levels for getting into the game, in my opinion. Having 2 encounter powers might make them feel less straightjacketed.
+1
1st and 2nd levels are like training wheels for 4e.