Player Core 2 Preview: The Alchemist, Remastered

Eoni wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the Alchemist would've benefited more from their Advanced Alchemy resources following the Witch's Cauldron progression, letting them brew 2 and then 3 of their field's item type at proficiency level increases. The current feats to add to your Advanced Alchemy pool just doesn't do enough to enable you to do your schtick without buying more items.

They've changed their schtick away from being a vending machine. As such, they can't fulfill that old role anymore. Now it's a smaller amount of all day items and a pool of short-lived items. With this design direction, I don't think it'd benefit from your suggestion.

I wasn't thinking of them being a vending machine, rather more selfishly. Letting them do their personal think more as they increase in level. The toxicologist should be able to poison most of their weapons and the Chirurgeon could do with more elixirs to even come close to competing to a healer with a staff.

Also I don't think they've even really moved away from the item vendor concept. There's nothing to stop that from happening with the current build other than the reduction in reagents.

I wasn't thinking of them being a vending machine, rather more selfishly. Letting them do their personal think more as they increase in level. The toxicologist should be able to poison most of their weapons and the Chirurgeon could do with more elixirs to even come close to competing to a healer with a staff.

Then I don't understand you: Toxicologists and Chirurgeons get a recharging pool of items just like every Alchemist to do this. With the 1 action toxicologist field benefit, it's clearly intended for poisons to be used in combat vs pre-loaded. of course, they could pre-load a few on weapons from Advanced Alchemy but that's not meant to be used for every round of combat like multiplying Advanced Alchemy 2-3 times would do.

For Chirurgeons, they can toss healing bombs or vials and can fall back on daily elixirs as needed and have a good base to use Battle Medicine too.

Now they work sort of like a healer with a staff: they have their encounter resource and they can tap into a limited daily resource when needed. Multiplying Advanced Alchemy is like taking a healers spellslots and multiplying them by 2-3 and not giving them a staff.

Also I don't think they've even really moved away from the item vendor concept. There's nothing to stop that from happening with the current build other than the reduction in reagents.

yeah, it's the limited number of daily resources you have for that. You aren't poisoning 20 throwing knives in someone's Thrower's Bandolier or passing out 1/2 a dozen elixirs to everyone at the start of the day: [here, everyone take your Antidote, Antiplague, some Elixirs of Life, Darkvision Elixir, and maybe a mutagen/poison, ect... With the HUGE amount of items you could make pre-remaster and the increasing duration [to 24hrs] on a lot of elixirs, it'd be rare to NOT see every morning of an alchemists adventure to not be vending machine time. So multiplying what they can make by 2-3 brings this back.

In addition, the alchemist now has a recharging ability to make vials on the go, making them less vending machine like and more dynamic.

Also I'll parrot it again and say I hope someone realizes the necessity of a quick draw feat for each of the fields because action economy is and has always been the Alchemist's greatest enemy.

This would be nice. Right now, a Toxicologist needs to multiclass rogue and take Poison Weapon and Quick Draw [for pre-poisoned weapons]. Chirurgeons are in less need of this as they got a huge action compression in the ability to yeet healing vials at people instead of having to move to them or force them to draw and drink them themselves. For daily healing stuff use Healing Bomb "you can throw the elixir as though it were an alchemical bomb" with Quick Bomber and now you get 2 action economy reducers in one [make and use at range for 1 action].

You can still be a vending machine, but it's not quite the same. Before, you could make a lot of items that could be used whenever, and hand them out. Now, you have a few of those still. But the items you make with versatile vials have to be used within one round.

I think the devs were never really thrilled with the idea of a class becoming too much of a vending machine. A bit of it, yeah, just like a caster can cast buffs on someone else. But they didn't like the idea that you could donate most of what your class does, to someone else, and then just be a hanger-on.

The other thing they probably wanted to fix was a choice paralysis problem, where you have to choose between making decisions upfront in the morning at a favorable rate, or keeping stuff for more flexibility later at a worse rate. They put a wall in between those two resource pools so you (1) don't have to make difficult decisions about it (2) can't make decisions to go all in one direction, which they don't think is ultimately good.

You can still be a vending machine, but it's not quite the same. Before, you could make a lot of items that could be used whenever, and hand them out. Now, you have a few of those still. But the items you make with versatile vials have to be used within one round.

I think the devs were never really thrilled with the idea of a class becoming too much of a vending machine. A bit of it, yeah, just like a caster can cast buffs on someone else. But they didn't like the idea that you could donate most of what your class does, to someone else, and then just be a hanger-on.

The other thing they probably wanted to fix was a choice paralysis problem, where you have to choose between making decisions upfront in the morning at a favorable rate, or keeping stuff for more flexibility later at a worse rate. They put a wall in between those two resource pools so you (1) don't have to make difficult decisions about it (2) can't make decisions to go all in one direction, which they don't think is ultimately good.

You can still prebuff but it is not prebuff during preparation it is before you expect a fight to break out. A tox can use quick alchemy to turn their replenishing versatile vials into a poison you have in your book that lasts for 10 minutes. So say you are coming up on a door you hear monster noises on the other side you could whip up some elixirs/poisons to dispense before kicking things off. You now have 10 minutes before they wear off. If no fight happens you are auto getting back a couple vv every 10 minutes. You can also make some extras to reapply in combat for one action.

The issue is the unlimited quick versatile vials that are problematic action wise for some jobs.

I havn't had a chance to try them in play but the remastered alchemist seems stronger but it is going to play different enough some people who liked it before may not care for the new playstyle but also at the same time is way more accessible to a lot of other people who bounced off the vending machine build before.

Then I don't understand you: Toxicologists and Chirurgeons get a recharging pool of items just like every Alchemist to do this. ...

The disconnect is that other people see those options as insanely bad from a numbers PoV, largely due to the 2A cost. They really, genuinely might be "non-viable" options in combat (as much as such a determination as can be made).

There's no way I'm going to spend 2A to make and feed a single elixir, it does not matter if it recharges.

and the 2A Field use of Q-Vials are an entire tier of worse than Q-Alching your best item. Chi healing is stuck at 2d6 + 0 until L12, it's a bad joke that no Chi will use in combat.

Before the remaster, we could choose to prep every reagent if we wished. VVials cannot be prepped into items.

The core issue here is that bombs are allowed to be made and used for 1A, while all other items, most of which are touch range btw, require twice the action cost due to the VV-forced Quick Alchemy.

That's crippling.

Try to compare the Alchemist "Free stuff" with the 2A baseline of Electric Arc or other cantrips. If I'm going to contribute more to combat by throwing a cantrip over feeding a Q-Vial for 2d6 HP, that's a problem. Don't forget Rousing Splash is a 2A cantrip that scales at +1d4 per R.
As modest as the cantrip is, a L9 Alch can toss out 5d4 tHP while the FV is still healing 2d6.

It's a tragic joke that a cantrip so blatantly outclasses Chiurgeon's new substitute for the old Perpetuals.

The disconnect is that other people see those options as insanely bad from a numbers PoV, largely due to the 2A cost. They really, genuinely might be "non-viable" options in combat (as much as such a determination as can be made).

Number of actions has 0% to do with playing like a vending machine: all that means is that you can deliver items slower which is a different issue to talk about. That and the person was talking about number of items usable [poisoning every weapon and using MORE elixirs]. Again, it was about volume of available items at one time and not the speed of use. So, I think the disconnect is on your side on this point.

There's no way I'm going to spend 2A to make and feed a single elixir, it does not matter if it recharges.

I mean, no one is forcing you to. You could always take Quick Bomber and Healing Bomb for 1 action use but you'll have to deal with AC then.

and the 2A Field use of Q-Vials are an entire tier of worse than Q-Alching your best item. Chi healing is stuck at 2d6 + 0 until L12, it's a bad joke that no Chi will use in combat.

You're saving an action most times by being able to use it at range instead of having to make it, move to the person and then then having either you or them spend an action to drink it. The appeal is the ranged option when you otherwise wouldn't be able to that you don't have to roll to hit. That and riders from soothing vials [rerolling will saves]. Is the healing amount ideal? Not really but it's much improved from before when you had to force feed people by hand or make them use actions to heal.

Before the remaster, we could choose to prep every reagent if we wished. VVials cannot be prepped into items.

The core issue here is that bombs are allowed to be made and used for 1A, while all other items, most of which are touch range btw, require twice the action cost due to Quick Alchemy.

But you most times had to deal with 2 actions there too: drawing items required actions, gloves of storing/Retrieval Belts are 7th level or you had a familiar doing backflips trying to pass out items but that requires an action to command. So, no remaster really didn't have 1 action use of items unless you #1 had the item in hand [or are 7+ and have a magic item you can use once] and #2 the character you wanted to use it on was right next to you.

Don't forget Rousing Splash is a 2A cantrip that scales at +1d4 per R.

As modest as the cantrip is, a L9 Alch can toss out 5d4 tHP while the FV is still healing 2d6.

Average 12.5 temp hp [plus flat check to remove persistent acid/fire damage] vs 7 real hp [plus most likely a Will reroll +1 if needed]. Yeah, seems about cantrip level. People were asking for cantrip-like abilities for alchemists and this seems like it fits IMO. Remember, healing spells are only slotted ones, so you'd expect a cantrip version to do LESS than one that gives temp hp. Say we make it just slightly less than the 1d4/level with a 1d3/level: that's 8.75 vs the Versatile Vials 7... See how it's not far off? Again, I'd have LOVED that the numbers were higher [like the kineticist] but I can understand why they made the numbers that did.

But you most times had to deal with 2 actions there too: drawing items required actions, gloves of storing/Retrieval Belts are 7th level or you had a familiar doing backflips trying to pass out items but that requires an action to command. So, no remaster really didn't have 1 action use of items unless you #1 had the item in hand [or are 7+ and have a magic item you can use once] and #2 the character you wanted to use it on was right next to you.

The familiar would hand you your stuff for free starting at level 1 with manual dex + independent (on rounds 1, 2, and every second round thereafter).

The familiar would hand you your stuff for free starting at level 1 with manual dex + independent (on rounds 1, 2, and every second round thereafter).

How does the familiar get it in hand to start with? If it's riding you, it loses an action and you lose an action, meaning it has 0 to pass things out and you are down to 2 actions. Even if you ignore that, it can only have one specific item at hand, meaning you can save one single item, unless you are trying to get your familiar to balance on your shoulder while holding 2 items in hand?... Seems mighty sus.

And if it's just wandering around on its own, well... That's mighty dangerous for a familiar.

Gamemastery Guide pg. 14
"It’s recommended you disallow humanoid creatures and most other bipeds as mounts, especially if they are PCs. If you choose to allow this anyway, either the rider or mount should use at least one hand to hold onto the other, and both should spend an action on each of their turns to remain mounted."

So the rider or familiar get a hand taken up AND both spend an action. So, yeah... It really wasn't allowed in pre-remaster... Unless your familiar is running around like bait...

They... pick it up? Not sure I understand the question. As for riding, sure there could be some table variance. I take that GMG recommendation to mostly be talking about PCs riding other PCs, as have all my GMs that this has come up with. Valet would be a bit weird otherwise. Though even if you rule it in the strictest way possible, it's still a bunch of free draws as long as you don't move, mostly very helpful to get more short-term buffs out in round 1/2.

I personally don't think it's gonna be a huge deal after 6, as Combine Elixirs feels alright in terms of action value (and its opportunity cost has gone down from pre-remaster). Before that, yeah you're a bit hobbled, but you can still supplement your action efficiency with your prepped dailies when needed and also the old alchemist didn't use to have a ton of resources there either so... combined with the 2 constant buffs/poisons you get now, it's probably a wash.

Eoni wrote:

I wasn't thinking of them being a vending machine, rather more selfishly. Letting them do their personal think more as they increase in level. The toxicologist should be able to poison most of their weapons and the Chirurgeon could do with more elixirs to even come close to competing to a healer with a staff.

Then I don't understand you: Toxicologists and Chirurgeons get a recharging pool of items just like every Alchemist to do this. With the 1 action toxicologist field benefit, it's clearly intended for poisons to be used in combat vs pre-loaded. of course, they could pre-load a few on weapons from Advanced Alchemy but that's not meant to be used for every round of combat like multiplying Advanced Alchemy 2-3 times would do.

For Chirurgeons, they can toss healing bombs or vials and can fall back on daily elixirs as needed and have a good base to use Battle Medicine too.

Now they work sort of like a healer with a staff: they have their encounter resource and they can tap into a limited daily resource when needed. Multiplying Advanced Alchemy is like taking a healers spellslots and multiplying them by 2-3 and not giving them a staff.

Eoni wrote:

Also I don't think they've even really moved away from the item vendor concept. There's nothing to stop that from happening with the current build other than the reduction in reagents.

yeah, it's the limited number of daily resources you have for that. You aren't poisoning 20 throwing knives in someone's Thrower's Bandolier or passing out 1/2 a dozen elixirs to everyone at the start of the day: [here, everyone take your Antidote, Antiplague, some Elixirs of Life, Darkvision Elixir, and maybe a mutagen/poison, ect... With the HUGE amount of items you could make pre-remaster and the increasing duration [to 24hrs] on a lot of elixirs, it'd be rare to NOT see every morning of an alchemists adventure to not be vending machine time. So multiplying what they can make by 2-3 brings this back.

In addition, the alchemist now has a...

At the end of the day all I'm trying to say is the action cost of drawing and using items in combat hampers the efficiency of the Alchemist. I'm fine with reduced resources if it's easier to use the ones we have. Pre-remaster you were at least able to spread out the action cost of using your non-bomb items but now it's a 3-action activity if you're not using it on yourself and your target is out of your reach.

yellowpete wrote:

The familiar would hand you your stuff for free starting at level 1 with manual dex + independent (on rounds 1, 2, and every second round thereafter).

How does the familiar get it in hand to start with? If it's riding you, it loses an action and you lose an action, meaning it has 0 to pass things out and you are down to 2 actions. Even if you ignore that, it can only have one specific item at hand, meaning you can save one single item, unless you are trying to get your familiar to balance on your shoulder while holding 2 items in hand?... Seems mighty sus.

And if it's just wandering around on its own, well... That's mighty dangerous for a familiar.

Gamemastery Guide pg. 14
"It’s recommended you disallow humanoid creatures and most other bipeds as mounts, especially if they are PCs. If you choose to allow this anyway, either the rider or mount should use at least one hand to hold onto the other, and both should spend an action on each of their turns to remain mounted."

So the rider or familiar get a hand taken up AND both spend an action. So, yeah... It really wasn't allowed in pre-remaster... Unless your familiar is running around like bait...

With Manual Dexterity -> Item Delivery, they get 3 actions to "take item from you, move toward ally, give an item to ally (or administer it if it's activated with only 1 action)" when you command them.

With Manual Dexterity -> Item Delivery, they get 3 actions to "take item from you, move toward ally, give an item to ally (or administer it if it's activated with only 1 action)" when you command them.

They were arguing what pre-Remaster familiars could do. That is a Post-Remaster ability.

They... pick it up?

And that's an action. The argument is that the familiar is an action saver.

I take that GMG recommendation to mostly be talking about PCs riding other PCs, as have all my GMs that this has come up with.

You notice that the wording is different from GMG's general rule to more specific rules when focused on PC's: as such, it seems solidly a general rule.

Valet would be a bit weird otherwise.

Many familiars abilities fall apart when you examine them strictly. Valet DOESN'T require Manual Dexterity, meaning it's weird on its face before we get into riding.