The Start of Something Good: Announcing Errata Cycles

Squiggit wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Was this an intended nerf to the long air repeater? Weapons with air cartridge firing systems get all of the drawbacks but none of the perks of the kickback trait

I feel like the solution there is to not buy an air cartridge firing system for your long air repeater then.

I think the issue is that the air firing system is described as default on air repeaters so it's weird to have kickback on one

But the kickback penalty is part of a specific item, not the long air repeater itself. The text of the item says that air repeaters use air cartridge, not that you should treat them as having the modification themselves, and the text that describes the penalties is within the section describing modifying a black powder weapon.

Would you also run the air repeaters as having a range increment of 20/50, since reducing range increments is also part of that description?

Bullet dancer looks pretty attractive now with a d8 stock and kickback repeater along with the other fixes. I'd go so far as to say it's good now.

The brawling focus change is weird though. What does "Replace with Qi spells" mean?

Guessing it's the remastered level 1 monk spells feat like how ranger spells were put together with warden initiate

The brawling focus change is weird though. What does "Replace with Qi spells" mean?

Guessing it's the remastered level 1 monk spells feat like how ranger spells were put together with warden initiate

It is apparently a Monk Feat that is in Player Core 2, so we don't know the exact details yet. Presumably it lets you pick from a list of Focus Spells.

Powers128 wrote:

The brawling focus change is weird though. What does "Replace with Qi spells" mean?

Guessing it's the remastered level 1 monk spells feat like how ranger spells were put together with warden initiate

It is apparently a Monk Feat that is in Player Core 2, so we don't know the exact details yet. Presumably it lets you pick from a list of Focus Spells.

Yeah, I figured

Unicore wrote:

barely be paying attention to rarity at all

Ignoring rarity is the best approach for GMs that are experienced enough to handle it. Maybe it has a place for new tables.

Yeah, no. True names? I don't want to deal with it at all. And there are several things like that.

I think the issue is that the air firing system is described as default on air repeaters so it's weird to have kickback on one

I for one don't understand what are you talking about. There're air repeaters, non-black powder weapons with magazines and some traits and characteristics. Now Long air repeater got some changes and a new trait with the text: "A kickback weapon is extra powerful and difficult to use due to its high recoil. A kickback weapon deals 1 additional damage with all attacks. Firing a kickback weapon gives a –2 circumstance penalty to the attack roll, but characters with 14 or more Strength ignore the penalty. Attaching a kickback weapon to a deployed bipod, tripod, or other stabilizer can lower or negate this penalty."

Gortle wrote:

Unicore wrote:

barely be paying attention to rarity at all

Ignoring rarity is the best approach for GMs that are experienced enough to handle it. Maybe it has a place for new tables.

Yeah, no. True names? I don't want to deal with it at all. And there are several things like that.

Powers128 wrote:

I think the issue is that the air firing system is described as default on air repeaters so it's weird to have kickback on one

I for one don't understand what are you talking about. There're air repeaters, non-black powder weapons with magazines and some traits and characteristics. Now Long air repeater got some changes and a new trait with the text: "A kickback weapon is extra powerful and difficult to use due to its high recoil. A kickback weapon deals 1 additional damage with all attacks. Firing a kickback weapon gives a –2 circumstance penalty to the attack roll, but characters with 14 or more Strength ignore the penalty. Attaching a kickback weapon to a deployed bipod, tripod, or other stabilizer can lower or negate this penalty."

It's all seems rather straightforward. (Even if new balance is maybe questionable). There aren't any modifications here.

Check the description of the air firing system, not kickback

Check the description of the air firing system, not kickback

Why?

Powers128 wrote:

Check the description of the air firing system, not kickback

Why?

I can also give you Air repeater text, just for reference:
"A thin-barreled firearm that uses a container of pressurized air instead of black powder to propel small metal bullets from an attached cartridge, the air repeater has fallen out of common use in Arcadia due to its poor stopping power, though it's still used occasionally for casual hunting and sport shooting. The air repeater and its longer-ranged, two-handed variant are still valued by some for their ability to allow a shooter to fire multiple rounds without needing to stop to reload or crank to a new chamber. A typical air repeater magazine holds 6 pellets."

Because that's the actually relevant piece of text that the original poster was confused about

Errenor wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

Check the description of the air firing system, not kickback

Why?

I can also give you Air repeater text, just for reference:
"A thin-barreled firearm that uses a container of pressurized air instead of black powder to propel small metal bullets from an attached cartridge, the air repeater has fallen out of common use in Arcadia due to its poor stopping power, though it's still used occasionally for casual hunting and sport shooting. The air repeater and its longer-ranged, two-handed variant are still valued by some for their ability to allow a shooter to fire multiple rounds without needing to stop to reload or crank to a new chamber. A typical air repeater magazine holds 6 pellets."

Because that's the actually relevant piece of text that the original poster was confused about

As Squiggit already said it has absolutely no real connection to the air repeaters, old or new. That repeaters have this system is pure flavour and nothing else at all. Irrelevant to the mechanics of the game.

Powers128 wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

Check the description of the air firing system, not kickback

Why?

I can also give you Air repeater text, just for reference:
"A thin-barreled firearm that uses a container of pressurized air instead of black powder to propel small metal bullets from an attached cartridge, the air repeater has fallen out of common use in Arcadia due to its poor stopping power, though it's still used occasionally for casual hunting and sport shooting. The air repeater and its longer-ranged, two-handed variant are still valued by some for their ability to allow a shooter to fire multiple rounds without needing to stop to reload or crank to a new chamber. A typical air repeater magazine holds 6 pellets."

Because that's the actually relevant piece of text that the original poster was confused about

As Squiggit already said it has absolutely no real connection to the air repeaters, old or new. That repeaters have this system is pure flavour and nothing else at all. Irrelevant to the mechanics of the game.

Both you and squiggit didn't seem to understand the comment originally. This conversation didn't need to continue the argument on op's part. I don't actually agree it's an issue. I was pointing out the intention.

Cyrad wrote:

Was this an intended nerf to the long air repeater? Weapons with air cartridge firing systems get all of the drawbacks but none of the perks of the kickback trait

I feel like the solution there is to not buy an air cartridge firing system for your long air repeater then.

Long air repeaters have an air cartridge firing system by default, as per the firing system's description. The text makes it clear that any weapon with the system doesn't benefit from the kickback trait. I also can't find any option in Guns and Gears that lets you replace it with a gunpowder system.

Air cartridge firing mechanisms use a container of

compressed air affixed to a sealed
system that releases the air
in a small burst to propel
ammunition, and they’re the
default used in Arcadian air
repeaters. Any firearm can
be modified to replace its
normal firing mechanism
with an air cartridge firing
system, allowing the weapon
to be fired underwater or in
other conditions that would normally
prevent the ignition of black powder. The air cartridges lack
much of the propulsive power of black powder, however,
imposing a –10-foot penalty to the attached firearm’s range
increment. Weapons with the kickback trait don’t gain that
trait’s benefits when using an air cartridge firing system.
Attaching an air cartridge firing system takes one hour,
though this time can overlap with the standard time required
to maintain and clean your firearm to prevent misfires.

Specific overrides general. The weapon benefits from kickback because it says it has kickback.

firing system's description.

doesn't matter at all. Read the weapons' descriptions. It there the text which says something like that? No, there's not. The case is closed.

It does look like whatever experiment might have been happening with the daze spell has been thoroughly revoked by this Errata.

Okay, to people that thing the long air repeater doesn't benefit from [Kickback] because it uses compressed air... long story short, there's a critical detail you're missing: The long air repeater defaults to using an air cartridge mechanism. Its statblock accounts for this, and has the air cartridge's adjustments built into it. If you believe that the [Kickback] trait doesn't benefit the air repeater because it uses an air cartridge system, then do you also believe that the long air repeater actually has 50-foot range instead of the stated 60 feet, because of the air cartridge's range penalty? Probably not, because that would be pretty silly. ;P

But yeah, there's an extremely important detail that's kinda getting glossed over here: The air cartridge mechanism is a weapon mod. It's a DIY replacement firing mechanism for guns that normally use a different mechanism, and thus has to be designed to mate with rifling and projectiles that aren't actually designed to use compressed air. And being something that just anyone can install means it can't be expected to be installed professionally, either; it's entirely possible that a given PC can do a perfect install job, but they also might not have the tools necessary to create a perfectly airtight connection. And it also has to be removable, which means it has to be entirely self-contained and can't make permanent modifications to the base gun to better accomodate it. All things together, this means that using an air cartridge firing mechanism in a powder gun is less efficient than having a gun that's designed by the finest craftsdwarves to use compressed air from the ground up, that can be properly machined for its air cartridge system and has an air cartridge system that's properly machined for it, and assembled with high-precision factory tools operated by highly trained golems

What it boils down to is this:
• The air cartridge mechanism is less powerful than a black powder mechanism, when used in a black powder gun; it's an off-the-shelf aftermarket rig customisation marketed to firearm enthusiasts, installed without factory tools by someone who may or may not be trained in the manufacture of firearms. Weapons that normally use black powder have a range penalty and don't benefit from [Kickback] when using an air cartridge mechanism instead.
• The long air repeater is actually designed to use an air cartridge mechanism, from the ground up. This means it's actually designed around its firing mechanism, and can accomodate a larger, more powerful system with a better compressor as a result. (Or, conversely, may have a smaller mechanism with a tighter chamber and better rifling, to force the air into a smaller space and let less air escape around the projectile.) Either way, it isn't trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and its stats account for its built-in firing mechanism.

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tl;dr: The thing to remember is that the air cartridge firing system is a replacement firing mechanism. Its stats only apply to weapons where it replaces the default firing mechanism. If you want to apply the air cartridge system's stat adjustments to a long air repeater, then you have to rip out its built-in air cartridge system and replace it with the customisation version.

It does look like whatever experiment might have been happening with the daze spell has been thoroughly revoked by this Errata.

What happened with daze?

The text says "Weapons with the kickback trait don’t gain that
trait’s benefits when using an air cartridge firing system" and "they’re the default used in Arcadian air repeaters."

Full stop.

I agree this change was probably meant to be a buff to long air repeaters, but that's not what the text says.

At the very least, I think it should be clarified in PFS sanctioning. There will be GMs who will interpret this in the worst way.

Unicore wrote:

It does look like whatever experiment might have been happening with the daze spell has been thoroughly revoked by this Errata.

What happened with daze?

The short description of daze in the 3spell lists it is on had text that made it sound like it did something different than the spell actually did, and was a change from the pre-remastered players rulebook. Now it all matches how it used to be.

The text says "Weapons with the kickback trait don’t gain that

trait’s benefits when using an air cartridge firing system" and "they’re the default used in Arcadian air repeaters."

Full stop.

I agree this change was probably meant to be a buff to long air repeaters, but that's not what the text says.

At the very least, I think it should be clarified in PFS sanctioning. There will be GMs who will interpret this in the worst way.

The text does say that, but it also says they "[impose] a –10-foot penalty to the attached firearm’s range increment" (which everyone is ignoring) and that the firearm must "be modified to replace its normal firing mechanism with an air cartridge firing system" before the air cartridge firing system's stats are applied. It also lists the firing system's cost as 75 gp, which is significantly higher than the long air repeater's 9 gp price tag.

Full stop.

The air cartridge firing system also has a Usage requirement, specifically "Usage attached to firearm (firing mechanism)". And the rules for firearm customizations, the category which includes the system, states that they must be attached to a firearm before you can use them.

Fuller stop.

The text is actually extremely explicit that the description of the firearm customization air cartridge firing system ONLY applies to firearms which explicitly have the player-purchaseable air cartridge firing system attached to the firearm. That's what the usage requirement means: That it has to be used in the specific manner to provide its mechanical functionality, both benefits and drawbacks. The long air repeater may have an internal air cartridge system, but it does not come standard with the Air Cartridge Firing System item, and thus does not apply the rules text of the Air Cartridge Firing System item... and even if it did, it would have to apply the entire rules text for the air cartridge firing system, instead of picking & choosing which parts to apply and which to ignore.

Any GM who interprets the long air repeater as having the penalties of [Kickback] but not the benefits is kinda going against the game's rules, since "the long air repeater secretly has the effect of the air cartridge firing system customization even though the weapon's statblock doesn't say it's customized" is a pretty hard argument to make for a game that doesn't have hidden rules like this. ;P This is doubly true if they don't also say that it has a 50-foot range instead of the official 60 feet, that it costs 84 gp instead of the official 9 gp, and that no firing mechanism customizations can be addeded to it because it already has an attached firing mechanism, since you aren't actually allowed to selectively mandate part of an item's mechanics but ignore the rest.

(It may also be relevant to note that the ACFS actually does have a PFS note, that states that "Weapons that install an air cartridge firing system and that have the kickback trait retain the trait and the associated drawbacks." Going strictly by that text, weapons that have an air cartridge firing system by default would have to both have [Kickback] and install a different air cartridge firing system to gain [Kickback]'s drawbacks but not its benefits, would they not?)

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Going strictly by the text, if you want to apply the ACFS' stats to a long air repeater, then you have to remove the repeater's default system and replace it with a different ACFS. Which does sound kinda silly, but...

Really, the air cartridge firing system says that it's the default used in air repeaters, not the default used in long air repeaters. They're different items. ;3

This is doubly true if they don't also say that it has a 50-foot range instead of the official 60 feet, that it costs 84 gp instead of the official 9 gp, and that no firing mechanism customizations can be addeded to it because it already has an attached firing mechanism, since you aren't actually allowed to selectively mandate part of an item's mechanics but ignore the rest.

Moreover it would also be 4th level from the start as all customizations do to the items and unavailable in PFS from the 1st level, lol.

Powers128 wrote:

Unicore wrote:

It does look like whatever experiment might have been happening with the daze spell has been thoroughly revoked by this Errata.

What happened with daze?

The short description of daze in the 3spell lists it is on had text that made it sound like it did something different than the spell actually did, and was a change from the pre-remastered players rulebook. Now it all matches how it used to be.

As I remember it's not new and was written in the first, post-release errata.