Prayers Answered—Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Deck 5

If you evade her, you basically fail the scenario. Apparently she really does expect an answer now.

By RAW, you are told the following when evading a card: "If you evade the card, do not activate any other powers on it. Shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over."

This tells us two things:
1) We don't activate the "After the encounter" power if we evade her.
2) She remains the top card of the blessings discard pile and is not shuffled back into the blessings deck. This is because the Location tells us to summon and encounter her, rather than simply encounter her. As a result, the summoned copy ceases to exist after the encounter is over and is not shuffled back into any decks per the evading a card rule.

This has the fun consequence of a non-blessing being the top card of the blessings discard pile, something that should pretty much never happen (Hey so if I play that loot amulet or Seoni's power that lets me copy the top card of the blessings discard, and it's Lady of Valor, what happens?).

As a result, I believe there is an issue here that needs to be resolved. If intent is that evading still activates After the encounter powers on the card, there needs to be some way of making that clear (I can see either a resolution moving that power to the Scenario card or a resolution stating that it applies if she is evaded as well).

This has the fun consequence of a non-blessing being the top card of the blessings discard pile, something that should pretty much never happen (Hey so if I play that loot amulet or Seoni's power that lets me copy the top card of the blessings discard, and it's Lady of Valor, what happens?).

Pocket Deity!

Now that we're on a new page, I can easily see that this is the blog post for the new adventure deck, and that the Lady of Valor is right up there for me to easily read. Whoops!

This tells us two things:

1) We don't activate the "After the encounter" power if we evade her.
2) She remains the top card of the blessings discard pile and is not shuffled back into the blessings deck.

Exactly: she's no longer in the blessings deck so you won't encounter her again, but you can't win the scenario without defeating her. Congratulations, heroes, you made your choice! Enjoy farming for boons until the deck runs out.

If I were attempting to reflect the RPG AP, I might say that if you evade her and thus fail the scenario, remove the Sword and Shield of Iomedae cards from the game and continue without trying this scenario again. She's perfectly happy to not help you if you don't want her help.

But the nominal solution is probably just "The Lady of Valor cannot be evaded." She is a goddess, after all.

But the nominal solution is probably just "The Lady of Valor cannot be evaded." She is a goddess, after all.

That still doesn't stop a mythic trickster though.

Just to be super nitpicky... By RAW I think the Lady of Valor always stays in the discard pile even if you do encounter her.

Since when she is discarded a character summons and encounters her the "shuffle Lady of Valor in the blessing deck" is ignored because of the general rule for summoned cards to "never put it anywhere other than back in the box unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise".

Obviously that is not what is actually supposed to happen but it should be brought up if we are getting into the evading summoned banes territory.

Huh, sure enough you're right. I think we all know that clearly isn't how it's supposed to work, and hopefully no one actually decides to play that way, but yes technically you either choose to win or you never put her back into the deck. Kinda funny.

Since when she is discarded a character summons and encounters her the "shuffle Lady of Valor in the blessing deck" is ignored because of the general rule for summoned cards to "never put it anywhere other than back in the box unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise".

I thought cards trump the Rulebook in case of contradiction? Wasn't it expressly stated in the very book that it's so?

Yes, unless the rulebook says "never" in which case the rulebook still wins.

RULES: THE GOLDEN RULE

If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. There is one exception to this: When the rulebook uses the word “never,” no card can overrule it.

After evading a summoned card or resolving the encounter with it, never put it anywhere other than back in the box unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise.

There are two Ladys of Valor involved, I think. Lady A is the one discarded from the blessings deck. She's on top of the blessings discard pile. Then the scenario instructs you to summon and encounther the Lady. That creates Lady B, the summoned one, which goes back to the box after the encounter, or rather ceases to exist, since there aren't enough copies of the card to actually perform the summons:

However, if you’re told to summon a card that’s already in play, just imagine you have another copy of that card for the new encounter; this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.

So, after the encounter the summoned Lady B is gone. Lady A still resides on the blessings discard pile and was not put into the box. Lady A then instucts you to shuffle her into the blessings deck.

So no problems there, the scenario works as designed.

There are two Ladys of Valor involved, I think. Lady A is the one discarded from the blessings deck. She's on top of the blessings discard pile. Then the scenario instructs you to summon and encounther the Lady. That creates Lady B, the summoned one, which goes back to the box after the encounter, or rather ceases to exist, since there aren't enough copies of the card to actually perform the summons:

WotR rulebook, p14–15 wrote:

However, if you’re told to summon a card that’s already in play, just imagine you have another copy of that card for the new encounter; this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.

So, after the encounter the summoned Lady B is gone. Lady A still resides on the blessings discard pile and was not put into the box. Lady A then instucts you to shuffle her into the blessings deck.

So no problems there, the scenario works as designed.

Except you never encounter Lady A; the Scenario has you summon and encounter B when A is discarded. Since A is never encountered, her powers never go off.

Given this recent discovery, I'd say the only practical resolution is to move the shuffle power to the Scenario card and off of Lady of Valor herself.

Hm, you're right. Yes, that power should be moved to the scenario card.

Huh, sure enough you're right. I think we all know that clearly isn't how it's supposed to work, and hopefully no one actually decides to play that way, but yes technically you either choose to win or you never put her back into the deck. Kinda funny.

Would that constitute a win, though, if the villain were never defeated? I think by allowing her to remain discarded, you guaranteed yourself a loss as the win condition is gone. I suppose you could close all locations.

Andrew L Klein wrote:

Huh, sure enough you're right. I think we all know that clearly isn't how it's supposed to work, and hopefully no one actually decides to play that way, but yes technically you either choose to win or you never put her back into the deck. Kinda funny.

Would that constitute a win, though, if the villain were never defeated? I think by allowing her to remain discarded, you guaranteed yourself a loss as the win condition is gone. I suppose you could close all locations.

No, because the scenario tells you how you win, so closing the locations wouldn't do it.

w w 379 wrote:

Andrew L Klein wrote:

Huh, sure enough you're right. I think we all know that clearly isn't how it's supposed to work, and hopefully no one actually decides to play that way, but yes technically you either choose to win or you never put her back into the deck. Kinda funny.

Would that constitute a win, though, if the villain were never defeated? I think by allowing her to remain discarded, you guaranteed yourself a loss as the win condition is gone. I suppose you could close all locations.

No, because the scenario tells you how you win, so closing the locations wouldn't do it.

Ah right, so allowing the villain to be discarded is simply a guaranteed loss.

Did the Lady of Valor scenario last night - she was at the very bottom of the blessings deck. (Btw, you can't keep farming her indefinitely, you are instructed to advance the blessings deck before you shuffle her back in). Had 6 tokens on Heaven so my Seelah managed to roll 7d10+2d6(ally)+1d4(Arushelae's gift)+1d20(BoIomedae)+7 for Diplomacy and got a 73(target of 40 for 2 characters) - all without either mythic path helping Charisma. Probably should have gone Melee and rolled like 6d20 but didn't need to.

I'm a little concerned if she shows up in OP - not sure how my solo CD Merisiel will handle her with none of the skills listed. Gonna have to see if there are any Iomedae cards in the rogue CD. Right now I think I'm looking at 1d20+3d4 tops, which when fishing for a 30 is trouble.

Note the Rites don't allow closing of locations. Also all the rites and the Lady are barriers so Abadar helps a lot.

So the scenario card has you summon and encounter the Lady of Valor when the card is discarded. The encounter still happens although because in the steps in the rulebook, the Before the Encounter step triggers prior to being able to evade. Then you can evade (if able). So if you evade, the Before You Act does not trigger.

However, the last says After the Encounter not After You Act. Since the encounter does happen, I'd think that last line is still applicable!

Just because you evade doesn't mean you didn't encounter the summoned Lady of Valor.

That may be so, but the rulebook says (emphasis mine):

If you evade the card, do not activate any other powers on it. Shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.

Normally I'd agree but the After You Act step is evaded normally.

If you look at the rulebook on pg 10, there's the Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card step prior to the Apply Any Evasion Effects. step. That makes me think that there's an After the Encounter step that is not evaded. (And the card overrules the rulebook in this case.)

Question is whether an After the Encounter step exists.

So you apply effects that trigger when you encounter. After you encounter is separate from when you encounter. By evading, you stop any other powers from happening. Unless you say that After You Encounter comes before the evade step, it's ignored, and nothing on the card overruled that.

Do we have other cards that say "After the Encounter"?

Or does everything say After You Act?

I'm wondering if After the Encounter comes after the encounter that the player evaded.

Normally I'd agree but the After You Act step is evaded normally.

If you look at the rulebook on pg 10, there's the Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card step prior to the Apply Any Evasion Effects. step. That makes me think that there's an After the Encounter step that is not evaded. (And the card overrules the rulebook in this case.)

Question is whether an After the Encounter step exists.

Even if the card did overrule the rulebook (which it doesn't because nothing on the card says the power takes effect even if evaded), the power would be activating on the summoned Lady of Valor, not the real one (because the real one was never encountered). So the power would say shuffle the summoned copy back into the blessings deck, except we don't because a) the summoned copy doesn't exist in a physical form, and b) the scenario card summoned it and the rulebook instructs us to "never put it anywhere other than back in the box unless the card that caused you to summon it instructs you otherwise."

Is there a mechanical reason that it is "After the Encounter" instead of "After you Act"?

Independently of this specific Villain/Scenario (not received my cards yet in France so I will certainly not comment on something I haven't really played), it seems to me that allowing a card to instruct you to do things even after you evade it is a great way to ensure potential new fun stuff in the future.

In other words, why restrict the possibilities if nothing is broken?

Thus IMHO I'm all in favor to allow both an "After you Act" (that wouldn't trigger in case of evasion) and a "After the Encounter" (that would).

Just food for thoughts for Mike...

It would allow for example a power like :
"After the Encounter do XXX"
or
"After the Encounter, if you evaded it, do XXX"

Is there a mechanical reason that it is "After the Encounter" instead of "After you Act"?

Yes. After you Act takes effect before you would be able to win the scenario (she isn't defeated until you get to the Resolve the Encounter step). This means you would burn a blessing off the blessings deck even if you defeat her and are going to choose to win, which matters if she is the last card in the blessings deck. If it was After you Act, you'd then automatically exit the encounter (with the Lady being neither defeated nor undefeated), end your turn, and then lose the scenario due to there being nothing left in the blessings deck to discard.

(p17) If at any point you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, immediately end the current turn; the scenario then ends and your party of adventurers loses.

...
(p11) If you are forced to end your turn during an encounter, shuffle the encountered card back into the deck, or if it was summoned, banish it; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.

By making it after the encounter, that situation is avoided and you can still win the game even with the Lady of Valor being the very last card in the blessings deck (instead of a 1/31 chance the scenario is entirely unwinnable from the get go but you don't get to find that out until you play out the entire thing).

Independently of this specific Villain/Scenario (not received my cards yet in France so I will certainly not comment on something I haven't really played), it seems to me that allowing a card to instruct you to do things even after you evade it is a great way to ensure potential new fun stuff in the future.

In other words, why restrict the possibilities if nothing is broken?

Thus IMHO I'm all in favor to allow both an "After you Act" (that wouldn't trigger in case of evasion) and a "After the Encounter" (that would).

Just food for thoughts for Mike...

It would allow for example a power like :
"After the Encounter do XXX"
or
"After the Encounter, if you evaded it, do XXX"

The latter ("After the Encounter, if you evaded it, do XXX") is already allowed by the rules. The rule for evading something says "If you evade the card, do not activate any other powers on it." It does not use the magic word "never" in that sentence, meaning that cards are allowed to override that rule should they conflict. That override can be achieved by explicitly stating that the power triggers even if the card is evaded.

nondeskript wrote:

Is there a mechanical reason that it is "After the Encounter" instead of "After you Act"?

Yes. After you Act takes effect before you would be able to win the scenario (she isn't defeated until you get to the Resolve the Encounter step). This means you would burn a blessing off the blessings deck even if you defeat her and are going to choose to win, which matters if she is the last card in the blessings deck. If it was After you Act, you'd then automatically exit the encounter (with the Lady being neither defeated nor undefeated), end your turn, and then lose the scenario due to there being nothing left in the blessings deck to discard.

Rulebook wrote:

(p17) If at any point you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, immediately end the current turn; the scenario then ends and your party of adventurers loses.

...
(p11) If you are forced to end your turn during an encounter, shuffle the encountered card back into the deck, or if it was summoned, banish it; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.

By making it after the encounter, that situation is avoided and you can still win the game even with the Lady of Valor being the very last card in the blessings deck (instead of a 1/31 chance the scenario is entirely unwinnable from the get go but you don't get to find that out until you play out the entire thing).

Hrm.... That's confusing... So if it were "After you Act", you could end up in a situation where this sequence happens:

1. Encounter Lady as last card in Blessing Deck.
2. Succeed at Check to Defeat Lady.
2a. Win Scenario
3. Trigger After you Act power.
4. Go to advance Blessing Deck. No Blessings. Turn ends. Lady is now NOT defeated.
4a. Lose Scenario.

Effectively, even though you had already won, that is now reversed and your win state becomes a loss state.

Would that be the legitimate interpretation? I'm having a hard time with the idea that you can win and then have the win taken away.

If that could take your win away, why couldn't the After the Encounter power also take your win away?

Also, if there was a location that said "When Permanently Closed Discard the top card of the Blessing deck" and you defeated the villain there when the blessing deck is empty, would that be a loss as well? I think that is a much simpler "Yes" since you close the villain's location before you check to see if the villain escapes.

Hrm.... That's confusing... So if it were "After you Act", you could end up in a situation where this sequence happens:

1. Encounter Lady as last card in Blessing Deck.
2. Succeed at Check to Defeat Lady.
2a. Win Scenario
3. Trigger After you Act power.
4. Go to advance Blessing Deck. No Blessings. Turn ends. Lady is now NOT defeated.
4a. Lose Scenario.

Effectively, even though you had already won, that is now reversed and your win state becomes a loss state.

Would that be the legitimate interpretation? I'm having a hard time with the idea that you can win...

You don't win at step 2 though. You win when you defeat Lady of Valor. Lady of Valor is not defeated until the Resolve the Encounter step, which happens after After you Act. So, you lose before you get a chance to win -- nothing is being reversed.

If that could take your win away, why couldn't the After the Encounter power also take your win away?

You win before the encounter is over. "When you defeat Lady of Valor, you may either win the scenario or end the encounter." If you choose to win, the game is over before the encounter ends and you therefore never activate the "After the encounter" power.

Also, if there was a location that said "When Permanently Closed Discard the top card of the Blessing deck" and you defeated the villain there when the blessing deck is empty, would that be a loss as well? I think that is a much simpler "Yes" since you close the villain's location before you check to see if the villain escapes.

Yes, it would be. See also: Best Served Cold in Skull & Shackles with Barnabas Harrigan.

nondeskript wrote:

Hrm.... That's confusing... So if it were "After you Act", you could end up in a situation where this sequence happens:

1. Encounter Lady as last card in Blessing Deck.
2. Succeed at Check to Defeat Lady.
2a. Win Scenario
3. Trigger After you Act power.
4. Go to advance Blessing Deck. No Blessings. Turn ends. Lady is now NOT defeated.
4a. Lose Scenario.

Effectively, even though you had already won, that is now reversed and your win state becomes a loss state.

Would that be the legitimate interpretation? I'm having a hard time with the idea that you can win...

You don't win at step 2 though. You win when you defeat Lady of Valor. Lady of Valor is not defeated until the Resolve the Encounter step, which happens after After you Act. So, you lose before you get a chance to win -- nothing is being reversed.

I was looking through the rules to figure out when a bane is defeated and it doesn't actually tell you when that happens. It does tell you in "Resolve the Encounter" that if you failed the checks it is undefeated, but if you succeed it just says to banish the card, not that it is defeated. Logically, we know that it IS defeated, but whether it enters that state when you succeed the final check or when you reach the "Resolve the Encounter" step is left to the player to decide. Clearly, I support the "when you succeed, it is defeated" interpretation, though will happily change that when Vic or Mike inevitably tell me that I'm wrong :)

Your interpretation (that it happens in the Resolve step) does avoid that issue that I presented and explains why it is in the undefined "After the Encounter" instead. Of course, "After the Encounter" is also problematic as it is undefined and since the rules define a monster's powers as "These special rules apply when you encounter the bane" I'm not sure that a power that applied after the encounter even works with the RAW.

And before anyone points it out, yes, I know that common sense tells you how they intend to play it. I'm just trying to figure out how it works with the RAW.

It does tell you (kinda), just in a roundabout way.

Resolve the Encounter says "If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don't succeed, it is undefeated--shuffle the card back into its location deck."

Our first clue is in that sentence where we are told explicitly that undefeated happens during Resolve the Encounter. Common sense dictates that defeated would as well, however we don't need to rely solely on common sense, as there is another clue elsewhere:

Attemping A Check says "If you succeed in defeating the bane, it is usually banished. If you fail to defeat a bane, it is usually considered undefeated, and it is shuffled back into the location deck."

This sentence is heavily correlated to the Resolve the Encounter step. Using the power of English grammar, we know that succeeding in defeating something is synonymous with that thing being defeated. That doesn't need to be explicitly called out in the rulebook to be true. By transitivity, that sentence can therefore also read "If a bane is defeated, it is usually banished" and retain the exact same meaning.

By associating context, we can therefore also equate "succeeding at all of the checks required to defeat a bane" as synonymous with "succeed in defeating the bane", which therefore means it is also considered defeated. So the sentence in Resolve the Encounter can also be worded as "If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane then it is defeated, banish it."

This establishes that a bane is considered defeated no later than the Resolve the Encounter step, but does not yet establish a lower bound on when it may first be considered as such.

To do that, let's consider the following rule in Encountering A Card: "Players may not play any cards or activate any powers between those steps." If a bane is first considered defeated in between encounter steps, that means the first time a "When defeated" power can be allowed to activate is after the encounter is over (if it happens in between steps, it doesn't relate to any particular step so any such powers cannot be used during encounter steps, and since no powers can be activated in between encounter steps, that leaves the earliest opportunity for such a power to activate being after the encounter is over).

If that was the case, that means "When defeated" powers happen after the encounter is over, but "When undefeated" powers happen during Resolve the Encounter (due to the explicit mention of treating it as undefeated during that step, so such powers relate to the step). However, the power in the scenario is "When you defeat Lady of Valor, you may either win the scenario or end the encounter." If When Defeated powers happen after the encounter, the encounter is already ended by that point. This sentence tells us quite clearly that the power is activated during the encounter. This is a contradiction (in the "proof by contradiction" sense), meaning that a bane first being defeated in between steps is a false assumption. So, rule that option out.

If not between steps, it has to happen during a step, so let's take a look at those. It can't be considered defeated before you Attempt the Check due to knowing defeated = succeed at all the checks required to defeat a bane. By definition, this requires checks to be attempted first, so cross all of those steps off the list. Now, Attempt the Check and Attempt the Next Check, If Needed look to be promising candidates, except for the fact that they do not talk about defeated or undefeated at all, neither in their own paragraphs nor in the Attemping A Check section. The only place left is Apply Any Effects That Happen After you Act, which only mentions succeeding at your checks and again has no mention that a card is officially considered defeated then. That leaves Resolve the Encounter as the earliest a bane is considered defeated. With Resolve the Encounter as both the earliest and latest bound, that leaves exactly one option for when such effects are applied. ∎

I agree that After the Encounter is poorly defined, especially for a power on a bane as opposed to a story card (location, scenario, etc. where after the encounter powers make perfect sense since those powers don't exit the scope of the game once the encounter is over).

This is some real dedication from fans. We all know how it works, but because of one single word (summon), we are determined to prove it really doesn't (even though we know it does), and we are succeeding lol.

I agree that there is circumstantial evidence to say that you can decide if a bane is defeated in the Resolve the Encounter step, though I will also point out this under Attempting a Check:

If you fail to defeat a monster, you are dealt damage (see Take Damage, If Necessary on page 13).

That strongly implies that you defeat the monster before you take damage, which is during the Attempt the Check step. Of course that becomes troublesome when dealing with multiple checks. It should probably say "If you fail a check to defeat...".

I realize I missed one point in my above post, which is that the monster could be officially defeated (or undefeated) in the "Attempt the Check" or "Attempt the Next Check, If Needed" step after you rolled the last check to defeat (and therefore know whether or not they all succeeded). This allows it to be during a step as opposed to in between, and yet still be before After you Act powers.

This provides for some interesting nesting and possibly unintended consequences (although I would need to go digging for them), which is why I still believe the Resolve the Encounter step is a better spot for it.

Having some sort of official ruling would be nice, since I think at this point neither of us can really convince the other. Also, an official ruling for the actual scenario instead of our hypothetical "what's the difference between after you act and after the encounter" since that is factually broken as written. We all know how it's supposed to be played, and I think all of us are going to play it that way, but having the actual rules match the intent would be nice.

This is some real dedication from fans. We all know how it works, but because of one single word (summon), we are determined to prove it really doesn't (even though we know it does), and we are succeeding lol.

This is us, too late to change us...

Now if I can find two weeks vacations to write my own adventure path...

We all know how it works, but because of one single word (summon), we are determined to prove it really doesn't (even though we know it does), and we are succeeding lol.

Well, I for one am not sure how it's 'supposed' to work.

I don't believe evading the Lady is supposed to fail the scenario, but then an Adowyin in any party trivializes the scenario. The irony of me saying so, given all the fuss I made about people wanting Alain nerfed does not escape me; however, Adowyin is a single WotR character out of a dozen, so maybe there's no design problem there after all...

EDIT: Arguably, a Champion which spends 1 token to reduce 60 dificulty in a 6-char group may also be unintended, so a statement on this matter will also be good.

Keith already confirmed evading fails. As for the Champion thing, there's no reason not to allow it. It's one instance where one character can bring a huge benefit to the party, and it's probably never going to be that powerful otherwise.

Keith already confirmed evading fails.

Huh. It would seem the fact that it was him who said that evaded me :)

To be fair, I'm _not_ Vic; I'm not a definitive rules source.

How it is supposed to work, from my understanding (and how I'll play it if I get to that point before any sort of officialish clarification comes in):

1. If you defeat her, you choose to either win or shuffle her back into the blessings deck and keep playing.
2. If undefeated, take a bunch of irreducible damage, then shuffle her back into the blessings deck and keep playing.
3. If neither defeated nor undefeated (such as when she's evaded), shuffle her back into the blessings deck and keep playing. I personally view evading her as saying something to the effect of "That's a really good question, and will take me some time to think about it thoroughly. Do you mind giving me a while to contemplate it before returning with my answer?"

Keith, the "After the Encounter" step that is stated on the Lady, when does that happen in the sequence of steps? It obviously isn't the same as "After You Act".

And does it occur even if the card is evaded? (The encounter does occur since "When You Encounter" effects happen prior to evasion.)

Keith, the "After the Encounter" step that is stated on the Lady, when does that happen in the sequence of steps? It obviously isn't the same as "After You Act".

And does it occur even if the card is evaded? (The encounter does occur since "When You Encounter" effects happen prior to evasion.)

I suspect that "after the encounter" was specifically chosen to make it work in this special circumstance, but I'm going to have to defer to those who wield the bigger Rules-Fu than I to give a definitive answer.

In hindsight, I still think it's an awesome scenario, but I wish we'd put the shuffle mechanic on the scenario instead and that there'd been some way to ensure that she would show up the first time much sooner than, for example, the very last card of the blessings deck that someone posted about.

Also, related tangent, I really love how much extra room for scenario rules and flavor text we have in Organized Play :)

Also, related tangent, I really love how much extra room for scenario rules and flavor text we have in Organized Play :)

Never thought of having an "adventure book" added to the base set that could both add flavor background stories AND precisions on how to deal with specific scenarios?

For example, in specific scenarii where the winning/failing conditions are not obvious, it would be very valuable.

Keith, the "After the Encounter" step that is stated on the Lady, when does that happen in the sequence of steps? It obviously isn't the same as "After You Act".

And does it occur even if the card is evaded? (The encounter does occur since "When You Encounter" effects happen prior to evasion.)

Just keep in mind that even if it triggers on evasions, it's still the summoned card that you encountered, and the card that summoned it (the scenario) never says to not put it in the box so it still breaks.

For example, in specific scenarii where the winning/failing conditions are not obvious, it would be very valuable.

Any such scenario should ideally be fixed prior to publication. The game needs to be fully playable in the format it's published, not with an optional product or download.

While I love our ability to leverage Organized Play to stretch the design space, I'm not saying we can do the same thing with the standard product. For instance, in OP we can have scenario text that is several paragraphs long. That's so hard to do on a card.

I suspect we'd also find that forced brevity is sometimes a good incentive to design better if we did have all the space all the time, but that's a different quandary ;)

Keith Richmond wrote:

Also, related tangent, I really love how much extra room for scenario rules and flavor text we have in Organized Play :)

Never thought of having an "adventure book" added to the base set that could both add flavor background stories AND precisions on how to deal with specific scenarios?

Or a downloadable one?

For example, in specific scenarii where the winning/failing conditions are not obvious, it would be very valuable.

I know it doesn't fit their current design, but I would LOVE switching from scenario/adventure/path cards to an adventure path book. I suspect it would adversely affect the cost, though, since it would need to be 43+ pages (one page per scenario, adventure, path). Their Player Companion line is 32 pages and sells for $15/book. Their Campaign Setting books are 64 pages (I believe) and go for $23/book. So I'd expect it to add another 15-20 dollars per base set.

I would happily pay for that, but I suspect I'm not the majority.

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

Keith, the "After the Encounter" step that is stated on the Lady, when does that happen in the sequence of steps? It obviously isn't the same as "After You Act".

And does it occur even if the card is evaded? (The encounter does occur since "When You Encounter" effects happen prior to evasion.)

Just keep in mind that even if it triggers on evasions, it's still the summoned card that you encountered, and the card that summoned it (the scenario) never says to not put it in the box so it still breaks.

Which is why I think clarification on the "After the Encounter" step needs to happen. What I'm reading vs how the game steps are played are two different things … meaning that it seems like evasion shouldn't not trigger that After the Encounter effect. And like Keith mentioned, it probably needs to be added to the scenario.

Frencois wrote:

Keith Richmond wrote:

Also, related tangent, I really love how much extra room for scenario rules and flavor text we have in Organized Play :)

Never thought of having an "adventure book" added to the base set that could both add flavor background stories AND precisions on how to deal with specific scenarios?

Or a downloadable one?

For example, in specific scenarii where the winning/failing conditions are not obvious, it would be very valuable.

I know it doesn't fit their current design, but I would LOVE switching from scenario/adventure/path cards to an adventure path book. I suspect it would adversely affect the cost, though, since it would need to be 43+ pages (one page per scenario, adventure, path). Their Player Companion line is 32 pages and sells for $15/book. Their Campaign Setting books are 64 pages (I believe) and go for $23/book. So I'd expect it to add another 15-20 dollars per base set.

I would happily pay for that, but I suspect I'm not the majority.

I'd go for a 64 page book containing nothing but fluff (and maybe a promo card and some bonus scenarios for each adventure that don't give out rewards but explore other parts of the storyline that were cut due to the 5-scenarios-per-adventure constraint to increase the value and make the product more marketable). Keep the cards as-is to make the book an entirely optional supplement, but devote a page or two to each scenario to really explain what's going on in an engaging narrative. Basically recount the actual storyline from the RPG AP but without any crunchy parts. This would breathe a lot more life into the cards in my opinion for someone unfamiliar with the source material. As an example, instead of just seeing an ally named Sandra Quinn, you could know from the book that she's super awesome and helped you survive and find your way around when you were first pressed into service aboard Harrigan's ship.

The main issue with such a book is the resources that would need to go into producing and editing it. Even if you don't add bonus scenarios (and adding in the playtesting and design team costs associated with that), someone's gotta write the story text, lay out the art assets, etc. Another issue is how well it'll sell if it's purely an optional supplement. Adding in promo cards or bonus scenarios can help with that (although expect grumbles that they aren't really "bonus" and that the "optional" supplement is required to enjoy the full game), as will adding it into the subscription (expect more grumbles about that too unless you offer a sub option that doesn't include it).

So I played through this with my solo Zarlova tonight. Things got a little crazy. This was my deck at the end of the scenario. (link should take you to a public facebook post)

Kudos on the weird but awesome scenario. It's been a lot of fun both times I've played it.

So I played through this with my solo Zarlova tonight. Things got a little crazy. This was my deck at the end of the scenario. (link should take you to a public facebook post)

Kudos on the weird but awesome scenario. It's been a lot of fun both times I've played it.

Wow! I have never seen a deck that large :-)

I love your new avatar, Iammars.

I love your new avatar, Iammars.

Thanks. Gom-Gom the stuffed owlbear is one of the best things I've seen come out of Paizo in a while. It's so cute!