Unchained Skills and Feats

Thursday, April 9, 2015

If classes are the main chassis of a character, skills and feats are its nuts and bolts. When they let us designers loose in Pathfinder Unchained, it's only natural that we wanted to play around with how the nuts and bolts attach, and even try changing the shapes of those nuts and bolts entirely! In Chapters 2 and 3 of Pathfinder Unchained, there are not only several daring subsystems that play with feats, there so many different options for restructuring skills that it's easy to lose yourself in all the possibilities. I've gathered some of the coolest tidbits from all those options to share with you today!

Starting with skills, the three major skills options each serve a different goal.


Illustration by Géraud Soulié

I Need More Skills to Flesh Out My Character
The background skills variant separates out certain skills as background skills as opposed to adventuring skills. It also adds some new background skills to the game, such as Lore, a very specific version of the Knowledge skill. To round it out, everyone gains 2 extra skill points to spend on background skills, no matter your class!

There Are Too Many Skills
The consolidated skills variant serves a somewhat opposite goal, combining current skill functionality into only 12 skills.

Assigning Skill Points Can Be Tough
The grouped skills variant makes it easier to assign skills, speeding up the level-up process. It also gives characters a middle tier of skills that they are pretty good at, rather than most characters having mostly max ranks, 1 rank, or no ranks.

As cool as the skill sections are, the sections involving feats are the showstoppers of today's blog!

Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!

Stamina System
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line. Yes, you read that right: it specifically lists every combat feat in the whole line and then grants each feat new powers. Right from the start, the system offers options for you to just give the system to fighters or to give it to all martial characters, depending on your preference. Stamina is a new resource that allows martial characters to boost themselves and use their feats in new and exciting ways. It regenerates relatively quickly between battles, allowing you to enjoy an entirely new mindset to your daily exploration; a party of stamina-users benefits from hit and run guerilla tactics, emphasizing the value of mobility, stealth, and timing (as opposed to the mindset of "buff, buff, buff, speed through!"). Stamina lets you boost your effectiveness or change the rules of the feat in your favor. These special stamina powers are called combat tricks. While I'm sure that the ways to use stamina to boost your effectiveness will be quite popular (like Critical Focus, where under certain conditions, you can increase your critical multiplier, potentially multiple times if you roll high enough), I'm a fan of the combat tricks that let you retroactively apply an effect (like declare a Stunning Fist after you already know your attack connected), and my absolute favorites are the ones that let you trick your opponent through devious tactical play. For instance, the Combat Style Master combat trick allows you to spend stamina to switch your styles as an off-turn free action. So you can lure people into attacking you and then suddenly be in Snake Style before they can even call off the attack! In the same vein, I also really enjoy the combat tricks that let you use your powers when you normally couldn't, since that has two cool psychological effects: not only can it present great "gotcha" moments, but once your enemy knows you can, say, spend stamina to take a second attack of opportunity against them from the same opportunity, it changes the way they view your threat, and it might allow you to control their actions without even spending your stamina!

Tune in next time to learn more about magic—specifically, the new scaling magic items in Pathfinder Unchained that grow with your character!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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How do you qualify for that tho? Shift qualifies for it?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!

Ick, that's right. And since Dimensional Ability requires the ability to cast dimension door, techically people won't be able to qualify for it anyway....

Noooooo, my dreams of teleporting ninjas have been squashed! D:

Then again this may explain why they only ever seem to do a good job of using their quick movement to run away, and never to attack, lol.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+&~$@!+%&#%.

Fairly certain that, depending on how variant multiclassing works, this just became the standard for how all martial NPCs function in my games :P


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Clearly Mark's post is a re-reversal of the abilities-count-as-spells-FAQ. Everybody back on the Theurge train!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!

Ick, that's right. And since Dimensional Ability requires the ability to cast dimension door, techically people won't be able to qualify for it anyway....

Noooooo, my dreams of teleporting ninjas have been squashed! D:

Then again this may explain why they only ever seem to do a good job of using their quick movement to run away, and never to attack, lol.

Since the feat requires Abundant step class feature OR ability to cast dimension door, it is only logical to allow it with Shift.

I do note that the Shift ability existed when the Dimensional Agility feat was written, but I am inclined to see it's exclusion as an oversight, rather than a considered choice.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!

Ick, that's right. And since Dimensional Ability requires the ability to cast dimension door, techically people won't be able to qualify for it anyway....

Noooooo, my dreams of teleporting ninjas have been squashed! D:

Then again this may explain why they only ever seem to do a good job of using their quick movement to run away, and never to attack, lol.

Since the feat requires Abundant step class feature OR ability to cast dimension door, it is only logical to allow it with Shift.

I do note that the Shift ability existed when the Dimensional Agility feat was written, but I am inclined to see it's exclusion as an oversight, rather than a considered choice.

He's trying to invoke logic - on the forums! Destroy him. :P


Rynjin wrote:

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

Why... Not all of us can be the awe-inspiring men and women who have the amazing power of... choosing to use pen and paper instead of a PC?

Truly, I bow before your might...


5 people marked this as a favorite.

If my character doesn't make hero lab twinge and cry in a corner I'm doing something wrong...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

Why... Not all of us can be the awe-inspiring men and women who have the amazing power of... choosing to use pen and paper instead of a PC?

Truly, I bow before your might...

I use a PC for my sheets.

I don't have to pay to use my sheet though, and shell out double the price for each book (basically).

HeroLab is a pretty good racket.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:

I use a PC for my sheets.

I don't have to pay to use my sheet though, and shell out double the price for each book (basically).

HeroLab is a pretty good racket.

As good a racket as a calculator...

HL is seriously better and faster than any free character sheet I've ever seen. And I saw lots of them.

Silver Crusade Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

Why... Not all of us can be the awe-inspiring men and women who have the amazing power of... choosing to use pen and paper instead of a PC?

Truly, I bow before your might...

I use a PC for my sheets.

I don't have to pay to use my sheet though, and shell out double the price for each book (basically).

HeroLab is a pretty good racket.

I'm woman enough to recognize and accept a sunk cost. If I didn't think it was worth my money... I'd stop buying material for it. :)


I can't see what its doing. Its equip, get gold, and buy functions are clunky , and it seemed to have a hard time with situational modifiers.


The calculator analogy has well and truly fallen apart at this point. Unless you find yourself downloading "advanced math packs" every time a new equation is published or something. =)

Obviously you guys find it worth the cost. I don't, in the least. Let's leave it at that.

Silver Crusade Contributor

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I can't see what its doing. Its equip, get gold, and buy functions are clunky , and it seemed to have a hard time with situational modifiers.

(I assume you're talking about HeroLab.)

I agree on being unable to see some of the math and such. Saving throws in particular really need this functionality.

The buy function is greatly improved in one of the most recent updates. Equip doesn't seem too bad, nor does adding gold. Could you be more specific, please?

Situational modifiers are really touch-and-go. A lot don't asterisk properly, or omit important information (such as bonus type).


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
The calculator analogy has well and truly fallen apart at this point. Unless you find yourself downloading "advanced math packs" every time a new equation is published or something. =)

I do buy a better calculator instead of just a basic one. I'll also buy a new device if the one I currently own is incapable (or considerably worse) at performing certain functions that I want/need to perform on a regular basis... Luckily, we don't find a bunch of new math equations every year in engineering.

It's more akin to buying expansions for a game. Or add-ons to a program. Or upgrading your computer so that it's capable of running a new game it couldn't run before.

You may not find the product worth your money, that's okay... But calling a "crutch for the weak" or a "racket" is not only hyperbole, but insulting as well, both for the developers and the customers. It's no more of a crutch than any other piece of technology, its users are no weaker than you and it's not a racket because it delivers exactly what is promised, doesn't trick you int buying it and performs considerably better than other similar products.


Rynjin wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

Why... Not all of us can be the awe-inspiring men and women who have the amazing power of... choosing to use pen and paper instead of a PC?

Truly, I bow before your might...

I use a PC for my sheets.

I don't have to pay to use my sheet though, and shell out double the price for each book (basically).

HeroLab is a pretty good racket.

Personally, I prefer using using NPCs for my sheets.

*ba dum tss*


I'm curious, will the Variant-Multiclassing feature copy over onto additional multi-classing?

By this I mean could I, as a Cavalier:
Grab the Channel Energy ability from a Cleric from levels 1-4 and give up JUST my 3rd level feat if I was to then actually multi-class into a different class? Or would I have to give up every second feat from 3-19?

To that end would it also mean I continue to gain the Channel Energy ability across every level even if they weren't Cavalier?

Feature sounds fun and I can't wait to see the crunch behind it, however it may end up.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mark's already suggested that it's an all or nothing deal, so if you VMC™, you are going to lose every other feat, but I can't see a compelling reason to not be able to multiclass your main class, so you could go Cavalier 10/Hunter 10/VMC Cleric.

Of course, wait for the real rules to be sure.

[Edit for amendment from absolute statement to option statement about ability to multiclass]


Corbynsonn wrote:

I'm curious, will the Variant-Multiclassing feature copy over onto additional multi-classing?

By this I mean could I, as a Cavalier:
Grab the Channel Energy ability from a Cleric from levels 1-4 and give up JUST my 3rd level feat if I was to then actually multi-class into a different class? Or would I have to give up every second feat from 3-19?

To that end would it also mean I continue to gain the Channel Energy ability across every level even if they weren't Cavalier?

Feature sounds fun and I can't wait to see the crunch behind it, however it may end up.

IIRC one of the big names (probably Mark, but if not my apologies) has already stated that soft gestalt (someone else used that phrase upthread and I like that better than Variant Multiclassing) is all or nothing... no dipping here.

So, yep every second feat from 3 to 19.

About continuing to gain Channel Energy across every level even if you switch class, it makes sense that since it's all or nothing it sticks with you (that is assuming channel energy is one of the things we can get with soft gestalt...) This last part is assumption on my part since I don't yet have a book : )

I like the sound of the feature too. It could make for interesting builds : )

Edit: Darn, I got beat to the microphone by Chemlak : )


Yrtalien wrote:

IIRC one of the big names (probably Mark, but if not my apologies) has already stated that soft gestalt (someone else used that phrase upthread and I like that better than Variant Multiclassing) is all or nothing... no dipping here.

So, yep every second feat from 3 to 19.

About continuing to gain Channel Energy across every level even if you switch class, it makes sense that since it's all or nothing it sticks with you (that is assuming channel energy is one of the things we can get with soft gestalt...) This last part is assumption on my part since I don't yet have a book : )

I like the sound of the feature too. It could make for interesting builds : )

Edit: Darn, I got beat to the microphone by Chemlak : )

That sounds about what I figured :), I'd be interested to see what would happen if you multi-class back onto the original class which gave out the ability. It'd be nice to have full-progression for that specific ability in that manner though it would mean giving up half your later-level feats for a limited boon.

Oh as an addition to that I wonder at what point you need to take the soft gestalt, does it have to be a level one choice or can you wait till you take a certain class?

So many questions so much theory to craft.

Dark Archive

Corbynsonn wrote:
That sounds about what I figured :), I'd be interested to see what would happen if you multi-class back onto the original class which gave out the ability.

Ooh, that would be a brain-melter. Take 10 levels of cleric with some fighter substitutions and then then 10 levels of fighter with some cleric substitutions... (Unless the exact same features are swapped over and replaced, in which case there'd be no net difference at all from a standard 10 cleric / 10 fighter!)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect there's a rule saying "if you VMC into a class, you may not select that class as part of the levelling process"

Ooh, how about this: Cleric VMC Cleric. Or, the insane monster Fighter VMC Fighter (but only if you gain the bonus feats). Of course, I expect that to be illegal.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I can't see what its doing. Its equip, get gold, and buy functions are clunky , and it seemed to have a hard time with situational modifiers.

When did you last look at it?

It´s easy to navigate and makes situational modifiers a lot easier to use, especially for new players, "weak" players and GM´s.
Also it´s far away from double the cost of the books/pdf´s.
Herolab offers a lot of package deals for Pathfinder, which aren´t really that expensive.
Similar products are more expensive and i´m pretty sure if you go to the cinema or stadion to watch a game, you spend more money on drinks and fast food, which is unhealthy for you and compared to this not reusable.

Hate it when people badmouth something without taking a proper look at it or just because they think for themselves it´s not necessary.
Do you know how many people talk like this about Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society, some of them especially after coming to this forum and reading some of the stuff written here?


Chemlak wrote:

I suspect there's a rule saying "if you VMC into a class, you may not select that class as part of the levelling process"

Ooh, how about this: Cleric VMC Cleric. Or, the insane monster Fighter VMC Fighter (but only if you gain the bonus feats). Of course, I expect that to be illegal.

That's kinda silly because archetypes can already give you class features from other classes (not to mention hybrids just sharing a bunch of stuff with their parent classes to begin with).


Chemlak wrote:

I suspect there's a rule saying "if you VMC into a class, you may not select that class as part of the levelling process"

Ooh, how about this: Cleric VMC Cleric. Or, the insane monster Fighter VMC Fighter (but only if you gain the bonus feats). Of course, I expect that to be illegal.

Fighter VMC Fighter?

"Hah! Now time to trade out some of my feats for class features! Like...completely redundant armor training! Or getting bonus feats that have more restrictions on them than if I'd just kept my normal ones!"

That sounds pretty dumb to me, actually. You're likely to just end up with a lot of redundant crap if you try that.


Chemlak wrote:

I suspect there's a rule saying "if you VMC into a class, you may not select that class as part of the levelling process"

Ooh, how about this: Cleric VMC Cleric. Or, the insane monster Fighter VMC Fighter (but only if you gain the bonus feats). Of course, I expect that to be illegal.

My argument was something based around prestige classes.

For example a decent move into Holy Vindicator is 2/4 Cav/Cleric.

Now if I wanted to go ahead and grab full Channeling, for whatever reason, on my Cavalier from a Cleric would that then mean I cannot ever grab a level of Cleric?

I'm just really curious how they'll take and what options it'll open up. For example you can finally build something approaching a martial fighter who uses his brain with a Lore Warden who grabs the Studied Combat feature from an Investigator. Oh, or something that grabs the Bloodline abilities from a Sorcerer. Or anything else really.

It's going to be fun.


It was already confirmed that there won't be any hybrid class class features I think.

For what it's worth, I expect them to not do the straight combat boost class features (such as sneak attack, Weapon Training, rage, etc).


LoneKnave wrote:

It was already confirmed that there won't be any hybrid class class features I think.

For what it's worth, I expect them to not do the straight combat boost class features (such as sneak attack, Weapon Training, rage, etc).

See I don't know, I think it'd be interesting if we had access to those features, not just for Fighters and the like but also for Classes that may want to try a more Martial way of play but lack the action economy/BaB to fulfill it properly. Something like Weapon Training is a good step in helping that out.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!

Actually using the retaining rules could allow a rogue to pick up the dimensional savant feat chain, and consistently apply sneak attack to all their damage without needing to multiclass.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!
Actually using the retaining rules could allow a rogue to pick up the dimensional savant feat chain, and consistently apply sneak attack to all their damage without needing to multiclass.

"Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" is a pre-req for Dimensional Agility. As far as I know, using a wand or an item doesn't count when it comes to the pre-req for this feat. You have to have it as spells known, or in your spell book, or an SLA that specifically references dimension door or the abundant step class feature. Without one of the above, you don't qualify.


Tels wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

That being said, using Shift to swift action teleport is pretty damn sweet on its own. You're getting 25 feet of movement as a swift action at tenth level, which in many cases is going to be as good as pounce.

Also worth mentioning that DDoor has no restrictions on having to teleport to a safe location. There's no reason why you can't Shift into the air, grab that flying wizard and seismic toss a m+$!%!@$+#!~.

That's true, if shift is a swift action then you don't really even need dimensional dervish.

...I think I need to make a teleporting ninja/unchained rogue now.

Yup, save yourself a feat and just grab Dimensional Agility to allow actions after using shift, and you should be set!
Actually using the retaining rules could allow a rogue to pick up the dimensional savant feat chain, and consistently apply sneak attack to all their damage without needing to multiclass.
"Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" is a pre-req for Dimensional Agility. As far as I know, using a wand or an item doesn't count when it comes to the pre-req for this feat. You have to have it as spells known, or in your spell book, or an SLA that specifically references dimension door or the abundant step class feature. Without one of the above, you don't qualify.

Variant Multiclassing allows you to pick up Abundant Step if Shift doesn't qualify (which it should). In any case, as soon as you get it, you are eligible to retrain your old feats into ones that you now qualify for, but otherwise wouldn't have when you got the original feat. This is explained in the FAQ.


Hmm, the Channel Energy example upthread gave me an idea. Hangover builds would be much easier to manage if you could just slap it onto a class that already relies on charisma (such as, say, the Oracle).


Monks can get abundant step at level 8 now, so that maybe helps.


I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hayato Ken wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I can't see what its doing. Its equip, get gold, and buy functions are clunky , and it seemed to have a hard time with situational modifiers.
When did you last look at it?

About six months.

Quote:
It´s easy to navigate

Oh hell no. Way, way too many tabs and red print going up with no way to track it down.

Quote:
and makes situational modifiers a lot easier to use, especially for new players, "weak" players and GM´s.

I tried to plug my velociraptor into it, got the +24 acrobatics check to jump because of the speed added to everything. Took a while to figure out what it was doing.

Quote:

Also it´s far away from double the cost of the books/pdf´s.

Herolab offers a lot of package deals for Pathfinder, which aren´t really that expensive.

For me it adds up rather quickly, probably to the bus ticket or a night at the hotel at a con I could be doing instead. I like bouncing weird abilities from all over the place against each other.

Quote:
Hate it when people badmouth something without taking a proper look at it or just because they think for themselves it´s not necessary.

I hate it when people assume that because someone badmouths something they're not doing so from an informed position.

It took up nearly half the table time for an adventure path we were running trying to get it working.

Took half an hour to update pretty much any time you wanted to use it with no apparent "In a game now, update later..." option.

The character page it prints out has horrible priorities for what goes on the page. I really don't need my druid weapon proficiencies listed on the front page(since those mods anyway) but somewhere with my feats would be great.

Every. Single. person I've seen using this has had some pretty glaring errors on their character. I don't mean missing a modifier, i mean things like not taking 5 off of iterative attacks. I can't blame the program entirely for that, but it does make it hard to track down and you can't just erase the number its telling you and put the right one there in the meantime.

Quote:
Do you know how many people talk like this about Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society, some of them especially after coming to this forum and reading some of the stuff written here?

The internet does not reflect reality. You have to meet people (preferably in meatspace) to see pfs. You can download and try hero labs.

Pathinder society, despite a goal of a uniform experience, varies greatly from place to place and DM to DM. Hero lab is one program. Everyone gets the same one.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hmm, the Channel Energy example upthread gave me an idea. Hangover builds would be much easier to manage if you could just slap it onto a class that already relies on charisma (such as, say, the Oracle).

Ooh. I'd actually be much more worried about Life/Hangover Oracle builds if that was the case, but a pretty interesting idea.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Variant Multiclassing allows you to pick up Abundant Step if Shift doesn't qualify (which it should). In any case, as soon as you get it, you are eligible to retrain your old feats into ones that you now qualify for, but otherwise wouldn't have when you got the original feat. This is explained in the FAQ.

Shift is a supernatural ability that mentions teleport. It is not, specifically, dimension door and wouldn't qualify even if it was because you are not casting dimension door. If you can't cast dimension door or use Abundant Step, then you don't qualify. How you go about acquiring the ability to cast dimension door or Abundant Step doesn't really matter as long as it's legal.

[Edit] Oops, I was misremembering Shift for the Travel Domain power Dimensional Steps. But, Shift is still a Supernatural, not Spell-like, Ability, and is not 'casting' so it doesn't qualify (though I agree, it should qualify).


Tels wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Variant Multiclassing allows you to pick up Abundant Step if Shift doesn't qualify (which it should). In any case, as soon as you get it, you are eligible to retrain your old feats into ones that you now qualify for, but otherwise wouldn't have when you got the original feat. This is explained in the FAQ.

Shift is a supernatural ability that mentions teleport. It is not, specifically, dimension door and wouldn't qualify even if it was because you are not casting dimension door. If you can't cast dimension door or use Abundant Step, then you don't qualify. How you go about acquiring the ability to cast dimension door or Abundant Step doesn't really matter as long as it's legal.

[Edit] Oops, I was misremembering Shift for the Travel Domain power Dimensional Steps. But, Shift is still a Supernatural, not Spell-like, Ability, and is not 'casting' so it doesn't qualify (though I agree, it should qualify).

Abundant Step is also Supernatural...


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.

I would also urge readers of this thread to dial back your expectations for Variant Multiclassing Ultimate Domination combos...

About a third of the progressions are spot on and very attractive, the rest are either confused and spread too thin, or the real stuff comes far too late.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.

I would also urge readers of this thread to dial back your expectations for Variant Multiclassing Ultimate Domination combos...

About a third of the progressions are spot on and very attractive, the rest are either confused and spread too thin, or the real stuff comes far too late.

Yea, I have been kind of worried about how many important abilities aren't going to kick in until level 19. At that point they may as well not exist in 95% or more of all campaigns.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Tels wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Variant Multiclassing allows you to pick up Abundant Step if Shift doesn't qualify (which it should). In any case, as soon as you get it, you are eligible to retrain your old feats into ones that you now qualify for, but otherwise wouldn't have when you got the original feat. This is explained in the FAQ.

Shift is a supernatural ability that mentions teleport. It is not, specifically, dimension door and wouldn't qualify even if it was because you are not casting dimension door. If you can't cast dimension door or use Abundant Step, then you don't qualify. How you go about acquiring the ability to cast dimension door or Abundant Step doesn't really matter as long as it's legal.

[Edit] Oops, I was misremembering Shift for the Travel Domain power Dimensional Steps. But, Shift is still a Supernatural, not Spell-like, Ability, and is not 'casting' so it doesn't qualify (though I agree, it should qualify).

Abundant Step is also Supernatural...

But is specifically detailed as legal. If it wasn't for that, Abundant Step wouldn't qualify for the Dimensional line either.


kestral287 wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Tels wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Variant Multiclassing allows you to pick up Abundant Step if Shift doesn't qualify (which it should). In any case, as soon as you get it, you are eligible to retrain your old feats into ones that you now qualify for, but otherwise wouldn't have when you got the original feat. This is explained in the FAQ.

Shift is a supernatural ability that mentions teleport. It is not, specifically, dimension door and wouldn't qualify even if it was because you are not casting dimension door. If you can't cast dimension door or use Abundant Step, then you don't qualify. How you go about acquiring the ability to cast dimension door or Abundant Step doesn't really matter as long as it's legal.

[Edit] Oops, I was misremembering Shift for the Travel Domain power Dimensional Steps. But, Shift is still a Supernatural, not Spell-like, Ability, and is not 'casting' so it doesn't qualify (though I agree, it should qualify).

Abundant Step is also Supernatural...
But is specifically detailed as legal. If it wasn't for that, Abundant Step wouldn't qualify for the Dimensional line either.

That is right, it is not technically legal. My apologies, I had commented earlier that I thought it reasonable to allow Shift to qualify. I was never suggesting that it was like casting the spell.

Different discussion, same subject.


Matrix Dragon wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.

I would also urge readers of this thread to dial back your expectations for Variant Multiclassing Ultimate Domination combos...

About a third of the progressions are spot on and very attractive, the rest are either confused and spread too thin, or the real stuff comes far too late.

Yea, I have been kind of worried about how many important abilities aren't going to kick in until level 19. At that point they may as well not exist in 95% or more of all campaigns.

The "secondary class features" are gained at the levels of the feat slots given up, so 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th.

It's mostly things that come online in the straight class by 3rd to 5th level being delayed until around 15th. So, the ability is worthless (or at least an afterthought to the style of your character), and building on that ability is futile.

It's a great idea, but I'll be reworking the levels at which the abilities are gained; and sometimes, what abilities are gained.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
I have my PDF. I suggest all subscribers check their email.

I'm still in pending... :-(

Grand Lodge

Lemmy wrote:
Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/

You'll be happy to know that all Ponyfinder books get HeroLab support!

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