Advanced Class Guide Preview: Investigator

Tuesday, June 10, 2014

Funny story. While brainstorming the Advanced Class Guide, and determining which classes were to appear in it, the investigator almost didn't make the cut.


Illustration by Igor Grechanyi

The class was my favorite from the start. I love detective stories and have been a fan of Doyle's work since first reading The Hound of the Baskervilles all those years ago. I've also been delighted by the numerous reinterpretations of Sherlock Holmes popping up over the decades. For a long time now, I've wanted to cast the shadow of that brilliant investigator and chemist in the light of Pathfinder by fusing the rogue and the alchemist. I knew it wouldn't be easy, but there were fears that the task might be nearly impossible or the class would not find traction with the players.

To our relief, those fears were unjustified.

From the start, a sizable group of players grokked the class. Pathfinder is a combat game, to be sure, but it's also a game of exploration, where players uncover the secrets of their GM's campaign. While some classes are pretty good at exploring story and secrets, their true potential often doesn't ramp up until higher levels. The investigator, through the inspiration mechanic, gives players a leg up from the start.

While the concept of the investigator was well received, that didn't mean the playtest and further development were a walk in the park. The early iteration of the investigator relied on a later-level progression of the rogue's sneak attack to ramp up its combat effectiveness (he can't uncover secrets all the time). Playtests showed us that wasn't good enough. The investigator's ability to increase his combat potential needed something new to highlight his unique take on adventuring. We went back to the drawing board and created studied combat and studied strike. These new mechanics allows the investigator to study his opponent and gain bonuses in combat, until he has studied his foe enough to unleash a damaging, maybe even debilitating, strike. This mechanic kept the investigator true to his theme in and out of combat. The early versions of those abilities were unleashed during the second round of playtesting, and through the great feedback we were able to refine these mechanics into their final form.

Studied Combat (Ex): With a keen eye and calculating mind, an investigator can assess the mettle of his opponent to take advantage of gaps in talent and training. At 4th level, an investigator can use a move action to study a single enemy that he can see. Upon doing so, he adds 1/2 his investigator level as an insight bonus on melee attack rolls and as a bonus on damage rolls against the creature. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) or until he deals damage with a studied strike, whichever comes first. The bonus on damage rolls is precision damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an investigator's studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator's studied combat again for 24 hours unless the investigator expends one use of inspiration when taking the move action to use this ability.

Studied Strike (Ex): At 4th level, an investigator can choose to make a studied strike against the target of his studied combat as a free action, upon successfully hitting his studied target with a melee attack, to deal additional damage. The damage is 1d6 at 4th level, and increases by 1d6 for every 2 levels thereafter (to a maximum of 9d6 at 20th level). The damage of studied strike is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit; creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to studied strike. If the investigator's attack used a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), he may choose to have the additional damage from studied strike be nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. If the investigator chose to make an attack with a lethal weapon instead deal nonlethal damage (with the usual –4 penalty), the studied strike damage may also deal nonlethal damage.

The investigator must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. An investigator cannot use studied strike against a creature with concealment.

Furthermore, investigator talents allow this class to increase the effectiveness of these two abilities, some of which allow you add debilitating conditions to the studied strike.

Lastly, while the various incarnations of Sherlock Holmes were the inspiration for the investigator, there are many types of investigators floating around the creative consciousness. When designing archetypes, we wanted to cover as many of those bases as space allowed. In the book you'll find the mastermind (an investigator that manipulates via a group of minions), the sleuth (a gumshoe who uses luck instead of inspiration), the spiritualist (a detective who gains insight from the world beyond), and much, much more.

In short, if you have a hankering for playing the smartest guy in the group, we think you'll dig the investigator.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Igor Grechanyi Investigator Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Grand Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:

If it's as noir as I'm hoping, the Gumshoe Archetype seems like a good idea for Garret. And the Dead Man is clearly another PC...specifically, one who's player is often absent.

I'd go with a heavy mace (possibly masterwork) for the lead-lined club.

I think I know just the player. I wonder how weird of a custom race the Dead Man is? Now I kinda want to write him up.

Like the idea about the heavy mace.

Liberty's Edge

Sprain Ogre wrote:
I think I know just the player. I wonder how weird of a custom race the Dead Man is? Now I kinda want to write him up.

Lord, I'd need to re-read the Garret books before even trying that. Some sort of non-Evil undead, certainly. Some Neutral Alignment (CN wouldbe my preference) and a powerful spellcaster (or a race with several spell-like abilities...the latter likely more appropriate). Beyond that...no real idea.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Like the idea about the heavy mace.

Thanks. :)

It seems an appropriate way to go.

Grand Lodge

No movement speed. Undead (naturally). Telepathy as a form of communication. Big boosts to Int and some to Wis, but probably a Cha hit. Some spell like abilities to reflect his, basically, psychic powers. Some weird chance to just finally slip beyond the veil and be dead-dead at the start of each new adventure?

And Cook put out a new book (Wicked Bronze Ambition) as of last summer...


Sprain Ogre wrote:
Wait, it just occurred to me that the sleuth might let me roll up something close to Garret (at long last! squee!), mama Garret's favorite blue eyed ex-marine problem solver. Even with a wonky sneak attack, this is my next character! What would the rules for a lead-filled club be I wonder? Just masterwork? Not to figure out what the Dead Man is (totally a cohort, or maybe Garret is his cohort... huh....)

And the alchemist spell list kind of syncs up with Garrett's habit of carrying all manner of interesting one-shot items...


Garrett, Morley, and Saucerhead are the usual PCs; The Dead Man is the GM's NPC mouthpiece used to keep investigations on track. :)


I do k8nda wish infusion lists had some offensive ones, id have loved to throw an extract and cause a debuff haha


Too late to edit my last post, but: add Winger and lately Singe to the PC list; Morley has leadership with Puddles as his cohort.


It isn't mentioned here, but maybe elsewhere, but I see the investigator more as the noir/detective side of Batman. He studies his foes for more lethal strikes and uses his batgear/alchemical stuff to boost himself or disable foes. Granted Batman doesn't have spells but they could fill in for his tech.


True - Batman has too many things he's good at to be effectively modeled in Pathfinder, but I think investigator would be a good one.

I'm thinking about playing a character based on Rudolph Van Richten from the old Ravenloft setting; the investigator fits him very well. I'm hoping for some monster-lore related exploits.


macabre dragon wrote:
It isn't mentioned here, but maybe elsewhere, but I see the investigator more as the noir/detective side of Batman. He studies his foes for more lethal strikes and uses his batgear/alchemical stuff to boost himself or disable foes. Granted Batman doesn't have spells but they could fill in for his tech.

If Batman existed in a world where magic was commonplace, he would probably be an expert at alchemy ;)


The description of two of those three archetypes, the Sleuth and Spiritualist, just gave me mental images of two people.

Spiritualist
Sleuth

Alternate Spiritualist.

...Damnit - now I want to make a Numerian Sleuth for Iron Gods.


Love the info, thanks for these blogs!

I would have hoped to see some crunch like that in the Swashbuckler preview as well (especially that DEX to damage - feat/talent/class feature/... whatever it ends up to be), and I hope for it in the warpriest preview as well (even if it's 'just' an updated version of one class feature).

Really looking forward to getting my hands on that book!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No John Constantine for a spiritualist? Or would he be more of an urbane shaman?

Scarab Sages

I'm curious to see if the bonus from Studied Combat includes Combat Maneuvers that utilize your weapon (specifically Trip). That being the case, it opens up some interesting lock-down possibilities with Greater Trip and Combat Reflexes.

I could be completely wrong, but at Level 11, after downing a Haste extract, one could conceivably Full Attack, using the first strike to Trip the opponent, AoO at Full Bonus against a prone creature, attack again at -5 (net -1 since the enemy is now prone), and attack one more time at Full Bonus. All this with +5 to hit and damage from Studied Combat.

Enemy tries to get up? Trip it again! Another AoO? Don't mind if I do! Does it try to get up again? Well Mr. 18 Dex, Now's the time for the finisher!

With an Elven Curved Blade, a +4 Dex Bonus, and a +1 Str bonus, a studied opponent at level 11 would take 5d10+30 damage a round, with an initial +17 to hit (Weapon Finesse). (assuming all attacks and maneuvers land properly, not factoring in crits (or a keen/agile blade))

--

Leaving the realm of theory-craft-fantasy-land: Combat Expertise actually becomes a fantastic feat with this class. The bonuses one accrues from Studied Combat outpace the detriment to one's attack modifier, and a dodge bonus to AC is a very nice thing to have, considering that one can't wear medium armor. Couple that with Inspired Alertness, and you become able to stay in the front line should the going get a bit rougher than anticipated. Very cool indeed.

I'm actually playing an Elf Investigator in the Mummy's Mask AP right now; high Dex, very high Int, but I'm 90% sure that I have the lowest Con in the party (at 10). We're at Level 2 now, and I'm the guy that the party turns to when there's a trap or a lock that needs disabling, I can ID and neutralize any poison we may be afflicted with, and I always come through on knowledge checks. Combat... not so much at the moment. Level 4 can't come soon enough...


Forty2 wrote:
Enemy tries to get up? Trip it again!

I love the imagery you're giving here. A very fun way to play a character, no doubt.

I just wanted to point out that you can't trip a creature when he provokes an AoO from standing up because the AoO occurs before he actually stands up. (You can't trip a creature that's already prone.) On the bright side, since he's still prone, you get to make that AoO with the +4 attack bonus from him being prone, so more attack bonuses - yay!


If you trip an opponent, one should use the AoO from standing up to disarm them!


Please make it unarmed haha.
trip, then disarm, whilen ever having their other hand leave their pocket or holding their smokes. Seems awesome.

Silver Crusade

Got to say, I like the studied combat/studied strike fix. Being able to use an inspiration to allow the investigator to study the same foe again is an awesome way to go. And the possibility of performing debilitating conditions opens up some great options for a crafty player.

The sleuth has me really curious, especially since it uses luck instead of inspiration. Looking forward to seeing how that shakes out. And based on the blurb, the spiritualist does seem to have a John Constantine vibe to it, which is good considering the TV series that's coming this fall will hopefully serve up some great visuals to inspire the archetype's use. One of my player's is looking forward to seeing the mastermind, but he is also really excited for the warpriest preview as well.


Hopefully they had the common sense of giving Investigators a second good save. Having only Reflex is a crippling weakness by level 9.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
Hopefully they had the common sense of giving Investigators a second good save. Having only Reflex is a crippling weakness by level 9.

...

Are you maybe thinking of swashbucklers? Because investigators have good Ref and Will.


Shisumo wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Hopefully they had the common sense of giving Investigators a second good save. Having only Reflex is a crippling weakness by level 9.

...

Are you maybe thinking of swashbucklers? Because investigators have good Ref and Will.

Hmmm... I could swear another class also had Reflex as their only good save... Maybe Slayer? I dunno.

Anyway, I really, really hope the devs don't give any class the same saves as Rogues/Ninjas. Two classes with such awful saves is more than enough.

Scarab Sages

MechE_ wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
Enemy tries to get up? Trip it again!

I love the imagery you're giving here. A very fun way to play a character, no doubt.

I just wanted to point out that you can't trip a creature when he provokes an AoO from standing up because the AoO occurs before he actually stands up. (You can't trip a creature that's already prone.) On the bright side, since he's still prone, you get to make that AoO with the +4 attack bonus from him being prone, so more attack bonuses - yay!

Thank you for the compliment and the clarification. One learns something new every day!

Tels wrote:
If you trip an opponent, one should use the AoO from standing up to disarm them!

And the AoO from it trying to reclaim its weapon to trip it again! (And it thought a 5' step could save it. Amateur didn't anticipate my Liquid Form.) Another free swipe! Looks like it's all out of actions... shame. Full attack with impunity! Repeat until dead! [mine is an evil laugh]


Forty2 wrote:
MechE_ wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
Enemy tries to get up? Trip it again!

I love the imagery you're giving here. A very fun way to play a character, no doubt.

I just wanted to point out that you can't trip a creature when he provokes an AoO from standing up because the AoO occurs before he actually stands up. (You can't trip a creature that's already prone.) On the bright side, since he's still prone, you get to make that AoO with the +4 attack bonus from him being prone, so more attack bonuses - yay!

Thank you for the compliment and the clarification. One learns something new every day!

Tels wrote:
If you trip an opponent, one should use the AoO from standing up to disarm them!
And the AoO from it trying to reclaim its weapon to trip it again! (And it thought a 5' step could save it. Amateur didn't anticipate my Liquid Form.) Another free swipe! Looks like it's all out of actions... shame. Full attack with impunity! Repeat until dead! [mine is an evil laugh]

Can't 5-ft step while prone, though I believe there is a feat or rogue talent that makes this possible. So its Trip > AoO > Stand-up > AoO (Disarm) > Recover Weapon > AoO (Trip) back to prone again.


Doing that with a whip sounds amusing.

Or in my case, improvised weapons of various varieties..

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
MechE_ wrote:
Forty2 wrote:
Enemy tries to get up? Trip it again!

I love the imagery you're giving here. A very fun way to play a character, no doubt.

I just wanted to point out that you can't trip a creature when he provokes an AoO from standing up because the AoO occurs before he actually stands up. (You can't trip a creature that's already prone.) On the bright side, since he's still prone, you get to make that AoO with the +4 attack bonus from him being prone, so more attack bonuses - yay!

Thank you for the compliment and the clarification. One learns something new every day!

Tels wrote:
If you trip an opponent, one should use the AoO from standing up to disarm them!
And the AoO from it trying to reclaim its weapon to trip it again! (And it thought a 5' step could save it. Amateur didn't anticipate my Liquid Form.) Another free swipe! Looks like it's all out of actions... shame. Full attack with impunity! Repeat until dead! [mine is an evil laugh]
Can't 5-ft step while prone, though I believe there is a feat or rogue talent that makes this possible. So its Trip > AoO > Stand-up > AoO (Disarm) > Recover Weapon > AoO (Trip) back to prone again.

It'd probably 5' after getting up. Full action would probably be... Extract buffing (Haste/Liquid Form. Dex Mutagen perhaps)> Study > Move in > Full attack(Trip > AoO > 2nd Attack > Haste Attack) > Enemy's turn > Get up > AoO-Disarm > 5' > Grab weapon > Trip > AoO > Your turn > Full attack prone target (3 hits).

4 solid hits a round ain't bad. At Level 12 with a Rapier... roughly 4d6+28 each round with relatively little retribution (Not counting crits). A bit feat-heavy (Finesse, Expertise, Imp. Trip/Disarm, Greater Trip), but possible. I guess this is where Human bonus feats at Level 1 come in handy.

Zwordsman wrote:

Doing that with a whip sounds amusing.

Or in my case, improvised weapons of various varieties..

Yep, keep it down so the party sneak attacker(s) can pile on the d6's while the casters and meat shields focus on more important things. Then ID it with your insane knowledge base, use your swift action to give (basically) the whole party a +4 to hit it for a round (Inspirational Expertise) as an Insight bonus (Stacks with prone). The Party's resident TWF Ninja would have to crit-fail all of her attacks to waste a golden opportunity like that.

"Ah yes, little known fact about Bugbears: the fourth vertebra from the pelvis is actually a little bit looser than the rest, as you can see (stab) here."

Grand Lodge

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Garrett, Morley, and Saucerhead are the usual PCs; The Dead Man is the GM's NPC mouthpiece used to keep investigations on track. :)

The alchemist abilities do synch up with that really well, don't they? I like it more and more! And the Dead Man really is more of a DM's mouthpiece, isn't he?

Garret probably has some fighter level (or maybe Slayer?) to reflect his time in the Corps.
Morley is a half-drow rogue with some fighter dip and an archetype to make him slicker than slick? Just bonus to cha skills everywhere. Every. Where. And leadership for sure. Downtime rules to own his own business on the side.
Saucerhead is probably an urban barbarian.
Winger is a fighter with maybe some level dip in rogue.
Singe is a ratling ranger classing into investigator herself.

Liberty's Edge

Sprain Ogre wrote:
The alchemist abilities do synch up with that really well, don't they? I like it more and more!

Yeah, it's a surprisingly nice fit.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
And the Dead Man really is more of a DM's mouthpiece, isn't he?

That's probably fair. I stil like him as an intermittent PC, though.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Garret probably has some fighter level (or maybe Slayer?) to reflect his time in the Corps.

I'd personally stat him as a straight Investigator, just with his Investigator Talents combat-focused. A past as a soldier doesn't necessitate class levels, IMO.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Morley is a half-drow rogue with some fighter dip and an archetype to make him slicker than slick? Just bonus to cha skills everywhere. Every. Where. And leadership for sure. Downtime rules to own his own business on the side.

I'd make Morley a Slayer. High Charisma + Favored Target (which gives significant social bonuses, remember) takes care of most of his social needs (he'd need something to make Diplomacy a class skill, but that's easy enough), and he does assassin work, which makes it very solid thematically too.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Saucerhead is probably an urban barbarian.

I dunno if it needs to be Urban. Standard Barbarians can be from a city, too. But yeah, that sounds right.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Winger is a fighter with maybe some level dip in rogue.

As a bounty hunter, she screams Ranger to me...maybe Urban Ranger.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Singe is a ratling ranger classing into investigator herself.

That seems possible. Feels wrong but I can't place why, though.

.
.
.
If this keeps up I'm gonna need to re-read the whole damn series.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
If this keeps up I'm gonna need to re-read the whole damn series.

+1

(There seem to be a couple of new books since I last read them, anyway).


Singe is a noncombatant -- I'm inclined to class her as an Expert (profession: accountant) who's also a really good tracker due partly to her racial abilities (edit: which may not be those of Pathfinder ratfolk).

Winger's player is the person you really wish hadn't shown up this week. :)

Grand Lodge

I don't think he'd be a strait investigator because of what he did in Cantard. While he never goes that deep into it, he knows how to use martial weapons. Even if we only really see him use a sword cane, clubs, and a heavy crossbow. (Maybe more in Sweet Silver Blues). Hence some foundation in a martial class, that he leaves behind when getting home to become an investigator.

Morely as a Slayer into Assassin maybe? I like that, and those favored target bonuses do transfer to skills. And it's not hard to pick up diplomacy as a class skill.

You know, I'm going to shift a little on Saucerhead. Maybe Brawler? I think him punching people when I think of him in a fight.

Winger just doesn't seem like that GOOD of a tracker sometimes... lol. But, yeah, Urban Ranger for Winger could work. And she is that character you kinda hoped wouldn't show up. And is probably being played (badly) by a dude. lol

Singe with expert levels? I do kinda like that. And she'd have to be a different version of ratfolk (looked at the Pathfinder version again, and while it is a rat-person, not the right type of rat person...)

Liberty's Edge

Sprain Ogre wrote:
I don't think he'd be a strait investigator because of what he did in Cantard. While he never goes that deep into it, he knows how to use martial weapons. Even if we only really see him use a sword cane, clubs, and a heavy crossbow. (Maybe more in Sweet Silver Blues). Hence some foundation in a martial class, that he leaves behind when getting home to become an investigator.

Eh, maybe you're right. A level of Ranger or Slayer seems workable, I suppose. Maybe Fighter, but that feels wrong.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Morely as a Slayer into Assassin maybe? I like that, and those favored target bonuses do transfer to skills. And it's not hard to pick up diplomacy as a class skill.

Yeah, that feels pretty much dead on. Though, actually, given that Slayers can get a death attack, I'm not sure the Assassin class as such is even needed.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
You know, I'm going to shift a little on Saucerhead. Maybe Brawler? I think him punching people when I think of him in a fight.

Maybe both. Multiclassing is workable. On the other hand, there's a Brawler Rage Power, which isn't bad at allif you want to go that way...

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Winger just doesn't seem like that GOOD of a tracker sometimes... lol. But, yeah, Urban Ranger for Winger could work. And she is that character you kinda hoped wouldn't show up. And is probably being played (badly) by a dude. lol

Hey, Rangers can take a whole one rank in survival just fine...

And yeah...her showing up doesn't tend to end well for anyone.

Sprain Ogre wrote:
Singe with expert levels? I do kinda like that. And she'd have to be a different version of ratfolk (looked at the Pathfinder version again, and while it is a rat-person, not the right type of rat person...)

I dunno, an Alternate Racial Trait (or Feat...there's one for Orcs) to grant the Scent ability and it might work. Or maybe not...this is one where I feel like I should go re-read the books.

And Expert seems very possible. Maybe gradually retraining to Investigator...


So, what's the investigator supposed to do for the first three levels? IIRC this was his only significant combat mechanic. It's nice that it's good now, but three levels of being even worse in a fight than the previous holder of the worst class in a fight title does not sound fun, Especially when he's more MAD than the rogue. The fear of dipping may have killed this class for normal play. Most games fall apart in the high single digit or low double digit levels according to Paizo's own research making that a third or quarter of the whole game.

I fear the fear of dipping has ruined an otherwise well made class.


Atarlost wrote:

So, what's the investigator supposed to do for the first three levels? IIRC this was his only significant combat mechanic. It's nice that it's good now, but three levels of being even worse in a fight than the previous holder of the worst class in a fight title does not sound fun, Especially when he's more MAD than the rogue. The fear of dipping may have killed this class for normal play. Most games fall apart in the high single digit or low double digit levels according to Paizo's own research making that a third or quarter of the whole game.

I fear the fear of dipping has ruined an otherwise well made class.

Well, as of the playtest, at levels 1-3 he can use Inspiration to add 1d6 to his attack roll. He can also use extracts as he's a partial alchemist. At second level, he can take the Investigator Talent: Alchemist Discovery (Mutagen) and have access to Mutagens as well.

Having access to Alchemy Extracts and Mutagens plus Inspiration means the Investigator should be fine for those first 3 levels. Then he hits 4th level and gets Studied Combat/Strike. Now he has 4 methods of boosting his combat effectiveness.

Yeah, I think he'll be fine.


I really was hopeful when the playtest come out. Although, I haven't had a chance to see the final version, I do like the idea and concept of the class.

Doctor Who class....


Not to hijack things...but what do people mean when they say "MAD" or "Gestalt"? Code words and short hand, abbreviations etc aren't always friendly to the more noobish Pathfinder crowd.

Webstore Gninja Minion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kayland wrote:
Not to hijack things...but what do people mean when they say "MAD" or "Gestalt"? Code words and short hand, abbreviations etc aren't always friendly to the more noobish Pathfinder crowd.

MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency

Gestalt = referring to a 3.5 alternate rule that let you take two classes at a time, and take the "best" from each class in regards to BAB, saving throws, HD, etc.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liz Courts wrote:
Kayland wrote:
Not to hijack things...but what do people mean when they say "MAD" or "Gestalt"? Code words and short hand, abbreviations etc aren't always friendly to the more noobish Pathfinder crowd.

MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency

Gestalt = referring to a 3.5 alternate rule that let you take two classes at a time, and take the "best" from each class in regards to BAB, saving throws, HD, etc.

For example, take a wizard|ranger. Wizard has good Will saves, poor Reflex & Fortitude; ranger has poor Will saves, good Reflex & Fortitude. Taking the best of each, the character has all good saves. Wizard gets d6s and low BAB; ranger gets d10s and high BAB. Character takes the best of each and gets d10s and high BAB. Character also gets full arcane spellcasting as wizard and 4 levels of divine spellcasting as ranger, plus all specials. Even though this character can't wear armor and cast arcane spells without some feats and such, it's still pretty tough.

Wizard|ranger requires you to have a lot of high attributes to do well, though--hence, it's a MAD character. OTOH, a sorcerer|oracle gestalt can get away with high CHA and not much else. An empyreal sorcerer|cleric gestalt can push WIS and not much else, and a sage sorcerer|wizard can push INT and not much else. These are SAD (single-attribute dependent) characters.


Wow...can't believe people play like that...that's just...kinda gross. I realize some people think gaming is all about winning, but that's beyond taking things too far. At least in my opinion. Thank you both for explaining it to me, however.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Kayland wrote:
Wow...can't believe people play like that...that's just...kinda gross. I realize some people think gaming is all about winning, but that's beyond taking things too far. At least in my opinion. Thank you both for explaining it to me, however.

Before that debate starts and escalates, let's just say that many many people use gestalt for concept and flavor possibilities and discuss matters involving MAD for plenty of reasons that don't have to do with "winning" but rather ensuring that their characters live up to the image they're imagining.

Gestalt gets used for a variety of reasons and styles of game, some of them very roleplay oriented.

Liberty's Edge

Atarlost wrote:

So, what's the investigator supposed to do for the first three levels? IIRC this was his only significant combat mechanic. It's nice that it's good now, but three levels of being even worse in a fight than the previous holder of the worst class in a fight title does not sound fun, Especially when he's more MAD than the rogue. The fear of dipping may have killed this class for normal play. Most games fall apart in the high single digit or low double digit levels according to Paizo's own research making that a third or quarter of the whole game.

I fear the fear of dipping has ruined an otherwise well made class.

As noted, he has Extracts (which are pretty cool), and can add Inspiration to attack rolls or saves. That's not bad at all. And, as noted, he can also grab Mutagen and other fun tricks (thoigh he only gets Mutagen or other such things at 3rd level at the earliest, not 2nd).

And for the first three levels, he's only 1 BAB behind the Fighter...who also lacks anything special for those levels (okay, he gets Armor Training 1 at 3rd and two Feats...but still).

I'd also disagree he's notably more MAD than the Rogue. He needs Int, sure, but he doesn't need a Wis above 10 (what with having a good Will Save) and can ditch Charisma entirely (especially with Student of Philosophy or Clever Wordplay).

Kayland wrote:
Wow...can't believe people play like that...that's just...kinda gross. I realize some people think gaming is all about winning, but that's beyond taking things too far. At least in my opinion. Thank you both for explaining it to me, however.

It's often used when trying to take two PCs through an adventure designed for four or similar things. So it's not just a power trip.

Also, what's wrong with high-powered games?

EDIT: Second half ninja'd (much better) by Mikaze.

Silver Crusade

Deadmanwalking wrote:
It's often used when trying to take two PCs through an adventure designed for four or similar things. So it's not just a power trip.

I can see it making for some great solo/one-GM-one-PC games as well. I'd have recommended it to a couple of married friends doing a solo Council of Thieves campaign if they weren't so certain that Synthesist Summoner was already more than plenty. :)


Adding to Mikaze's excellent post I'd just like to say that gestalt games can also be a great way to make sure a small party is still well-rounded and has access the resources an AP expects them to have. A friend of mine GMs Paizo APs with two friends who use the gestalt rules (paladin/bard and wizard/cleric) to great effect - he still needs to scale back enemies (action economy is king) but he can trust the party to have access to the skills, spells and abilities the AP expects them to have.

It's like Mythic or E6. "Winning" doesn't really come into it, it's just a different way to play the game.

Edit: Double-ninjaed! Doh!


Deadmanwalking said wrote:
Also, what's wrong with high-powered games?

Just goes against everything I believe in as a gamer. 100% anti monty-haul, anti-powergaming, anti-min/maxing. People want to do that that's fine...but to me it borders intentionally trying to break a game for the satisfaction of feeling godly. Being a hero isn't about being better than everyone...it's about simply having the courage to try.


Kayland wrote:
Deadmanwalking said wrote:
Also, what's wrong with high-powered games?
Just goes against everything I believe in as a gamer. 100% anti monty-haul, anti-powergaming, anti-min/maxing. People want to do that that's fine...but to me it borders intentionally trying to break a game for the satisfaction of feeling godly. Being a hero isn't about being better than everyone...it's about simply having the courage to try.

High-powered games would include having high-powered enemies. It means that the risk/reward is greater, but so are your failures.

In a low powered game, the zombies overrun a small village when you fail. In a high powered game, when you fail, the arch-prince of the 7th level of hell opens a gate to his plane and unleashes his devils into the world and ushers in 1,000 years of darkness.

Liberty's Edge

Kayland wrote:
Deadmanwalking said wrote:
Also, what's wrong with high-powered games?
Just goes against everything I believe in as a gamer. 100% anti monty-haul, anti-powergaming, anti-min/maxing. People want to do that that's fine...but to me it borders intentionally trying to break a game for the satisfaction of feeling godly. Being a hero isn't about being better than everyone...it's about simply having the courage to try.

Uh...high powered games don't inherently contain any of the things you list. Especially not if the high powered element is something the GM gives out at the beginning, like Gestalt.

As Tels notes, it's not about an 'easy win'. It's usually for the same reasons people have PCs start at high levels (ie: you'll need it).


It's simply not my style is all. I guess I simply like being able to look at my character and understanding how at one time he was a farmer. I don't mean to debate it..it's simply not for me. If it brings enjoyment to those who do like it...more power to them.


Kayland wrote:
It's simply not my style is all. I guess I simply like being able to look at my character and understanding how at one time he was a farmer. I don't mean to debate it..it's simply not for me. If it brings enjoyment to those who do like it...more power to them.

This actually makes me think you'd really like the E6 rules system.

Grand Lodge

I'm okay with high power games, but gestalt is just too much. I get a little bit too much cognitive dissidence with gestalt.

And E6/M6 is a really neat idea.


Mikaze wrote:
Kayland wrote:
Wow...can't believe people play like that...that's just...kinda gross. I realize some people think gaming is all about winning, but that's beyond taking things too far. At least in my opinion. Thank you both for explaining it to me, however.

Before that debate starts and escalates, let's just say that many many people use gestalt for concept and flavor possibilities and discuss matters involving MAD for plenty of reasons that don't have to do with "winning" but rather ensuring that their characters live up to the image they're imagining.

Gestalt gets used for a variety of reasons and styles of game, some of them very roleplay oriented.

I have yet to see this.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Kayland wrote:
Wow...can't believe people play like that...that's just...kinda gross. I realize some people think gaming is all about winning, but that's beyond taking things too far. At least in my opinion. Thank you both for explaining it to me, however.

Before that debate starts and escalates, let's just say that many many people use gestalt for concept and flavor possibilities and discuss matters involving MAD for plenty of reasons that don't have to do with "winning" but rather ensuring that their characters live up to the image they're imagining.

Gestalt gets used for a variety of reasons and styles of game, some of them very roleplay oriented.

I have yet to see this.

Commoner/Aristocrat gestalt.

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