I see coffee, pepsi, Sean's elbow and either Wesley of James Sutter's hand in the backgrund?
Oh, and who's playing what?
What is that huge mini near the lizard stable? I can't quite make it out from the angle...
My question exactly (2-4 inches in from the left side, 6-8 inches up from the right). Looks huge, but I think it's just large.
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I will be exceptionally keen on following this playtest and making notes as to the observations made.
I have DM'd a campaign in 3.5 (and PF Beta) up to about 15th level and found the preparation time for running sessions at the end almost unbearable. Mind you I strongly dislike re-using canned content from other sources as some suggest and prefer to make custom content, which of course adds overhead, but the planning of sessions was extremely time consuming and running combats was a herculean challenge. Not that I didn't enjoy it, I did, but eventually I ran out of gas and couldn't find the energy to continue to prepare high level sessions any longer.
I am very anxious to hear from those who are now, or will be in the future, running high level games. I'd like to hear things like:
1) How much time you typically spend preparing for a session
2) Do you construct NPC's and special monsters for your sessions or generally reuse premade examples from elsewhere
3) Sean, please do note your pain points and places where you are surprised about how things are either more or less work to manage than before...
4) How other DM's manage mass combats... writing numbers on the bases of mini's so you know which ones took damage.. using colored counters, etc.
Sean, if you want to keep this thread narrowly focused on just the playtest notes from this game I'll understand and we could discuss on a different thread, but I thought since they're sort of all the same subject, and this thread seems oriented towards discussion on how PFRPG has changed some of these things it my be appropriate to discuss here.
Did this game run a while ago? 'Cause it seems a bit late for a high-level playtest of the PFRPG.
Game sounds awesome, though. Can't wait to hear more.
I will be exceptionally keen on following this playtest and making notes as to the observations made.
I have DM'd a campaign in 3.5 (and PF Beta) up to about 15th level and found the preparation time for running sessions at the end almost unbearable. Mind you I strongly dislike re-using canned content from other sources as some suggest and prefer to make custom content, which of course adds overhead, but the planning of sessions was extremely time consuming and running combats was a herculean challenge. Not that I didn't enjoy it, I did, but eventually I ran out of gas and couldn't find the energy to continue to prepare high level sessions any longer.
Hi! Nice to meet ya!
Now imagine all of the exact same stuff (I never use canned content either) once they reach levels 45-55 :)
People are down on templates, but MAN do I find them useful.
I'm probably going to do the exact same thing as Sean, except at local conventions and a bit higher level (plus I don't like running evil games).
I've been running 40th-level 3.5 games; I'm curious how a 40th level Pathfinder game would feel. Of course, I'd have to allow lots more feats than whats in the PFRPG core (i.e. ELH feats), and I'm really not keen on the core suggestion to keep BAB and save progressions the same, but who knows, maybe it'll work out.
I think at the high levels the save progressions will just give every character class except monk a tremendous Achilles' heel.
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Highest we've ever gotten was level 23, post STAP. Stat blocks are the biggest pain in the rear at that level. The sheer abilities a uber high level PC or villain can bring to bear is ridiculous. I literally needed almost 2 weeks to stat up a sufficiently powerful BBEG to take on my players.
--Vrock God!
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Highest we've ever gotten was level 23, post STAP. Stat blocks are the biggest pain in the rear at that level. The sheer abilities a uber high level PC or villain can bring to bear is ridiculous. I literally needed almost 2 weeks to stat up a sufficiently powerful BBEG to take on my players.
--Vrock God!
Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me. I found myself reading through very many source books for just the right combination of classes and prestige classes, then picking interesting magic items for them from core + splat books + magic item compendium, then choosing spells from core + splat books + spell compendium, then working out a personality and background for the NPC... one high level NPC took me *days* to prepare. Mind you I was only able to commit a few hours per night in preparation... so had I sat down for one 8 hour stretch I could probably knock it out faster but... man was that a lot of work. Add in then that I was building several custom dungeons and adventure areas and trying to plan in advance for the PC's abilities... PC's which were played by very experienced and smart players... sometimes I found encounters I had *planned* to be epic and very challenging to be cake-walks because I didn't plan carefully enough. Not that I want to plan perfectly for every contingency but when I am planning a session I have in my head which encounters will likely be speed bumps and which I am focusing on to be "spotlight" encounters, ie, encounters to remember... ones that should play out over several hours and deeply engage the players tactically. Unfortunately, sometimes the players would pull a spell out of the Spell Compendium (or an item from the MIC) that completely nuked an entire session and I had to scramble in order to be able to carry on the remainder of the night... I'm hoping the GMG has a lot of tools in it that help address these "oh sh** what am I going to do for the next 6 hours of this session!?!?!?"
CEO
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Did this game run a while ago? 'Cause it seems a bit late for a high-level playtest of the PFRPG.
Game sounds awesome, though. Can't wait to hear more.
The game just starting running this week. And it isn't really a playtest as much as getting some experience with high-level play for PFRPG. Sean figured that if he started them at 12th level, the campaign would have a much higher chance of hitting 20th than a campaign started from scratch. Personally, my home campaigns tend to end around 15th level, so I think Sean is doing a good thing.
-Lisa
I would love a module along these lines. Any chance you'd post your gm notes and the like once it's done so that we, the unwashed masses, can bask in its drowyness?
Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me.Highest we've ever gotten was level 23, post STAP. Stat blocks are the biggest pain in the rear at that level. The sheer abilities a uber high level PC or villain can bring to bear is ridiculous. I literally needed almost 2 weeks to stat up a sufficiently powerful BBEG to take on my players.
--Vrock God!
While I certainly recognize that detailing NPCs can be time consuming (depending on the level of detail a GM wishes to apply), since I tend to avoid EPIC-level high fantasy like the plague, I'm genuinely curious about the following:
How does one stat out an opponent that is supposed to be "epic" in a few moments and lines of text? I'm not even focusing solely on game mechanics here. ANY opponent that hangs at the epic-end of the scale shouldn't be a throwaway NPC/monster/character (or to use the foul-tasting 4e term: minion). The idea of an "epic-grunt", "epic-minion", or "epic-chump" makes no sense.
If you're going to embrace the high-level & epic-level ends of the D&D/PF power curve, I'd view time-consuming stat blocks and NPC descriptions as part of the cost of admission.
Just another reason I wished D&D & Pathfinder embraced the "zero to master-of-one's-craft" power scale rather than "zero to super-hero" power scale. If all you're ever doing is raise the power-level, eventually you're going to reach the arena of diminishing returns. In 3.x & PF (and most games), that means NPC's and monsters are going to require more time to stat out.
If PF helps smooth that out, that's great. If it doesn't, it's not a flaw of the system. It's a flaw of the power scale.
You can focus your energies on the power scale and simplicity but at the cost of character detail/options (see 4e).
Just my 2 cents.
...either Wesley of James Sutter's hand in the backgrund?
What? Explain! What about that meat hook screams Wes or Sutter? or Wes?
Especially when it's pawing through a mismatched set of dice.
Well I Never!
They're smooth and pretty?
Random guess, I thought they were wearing a black t-shirt, you and James just seemed more like black t-shirt kind of guys.
:D
*cough* I mean, I had the offices bugged! >_>
Second Guess: James Jacobs! :p
Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me.
Yes, same...that's why I wrote a site to help with that.
This campaign is myself as a summoner, Timitius as an inquisitor/assassin, Crystal as a fighter, James Jacobs as a bard/demoniac, Rob as an undead sorcerer, and Jodi as a cleric.
The biggest mini you see on the map there is my eidolon, who is large size and quite potent. Part of the reason why this *is* a playtest is because both Tim and I are running APG classes at high levels and Jacobs is running a prestige class he's re-writing from older source material for future source material.
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Did this game run a while ago? 'Cause it seems a bit late for a high-level playtest of the PFRPG.
Game sounds awesome, though. Can't wait to hear more.
The game just starting running this week. And it isn't really a playtest as much as getting some experience with high-level play for PFRPG. Sean figured that if he started them at 12th level, the campaign would have a much higher chance of hitting 20th than a campaign started from scratch. Personally, my home campaigns tend to end around 15th level, so I think Sean is doing a good thing.
-Lisa
I also think this is a good thing! Could it maybe be an informal lead up to some priliminary .... epic experimentation?
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And pray tell, is that hand cream on the table.You chemistry types are so kinky.
I think that's a McDonald's Coke you're seeing...
What is that huge mini near the lizard stable? I can't quite make it out from the angle...
The big red one is Josh's eidolon. The bluish-white one is an ice devil mini representing my animated bone devil skeleton. I hope to have a real osyluth mini by the next game!
Sharp eyes might also pick out my four elven zombie handmaidens surrounding my character!
I plan to post updates and observations about this, yes.
This promises to be a fun thread. What happened to the last campaign update thread? I forgot.
Yes, I've just been scrambling to get the minis *finished* in time for the game. Dark elves plus angels plus creatures from beyond = no time.... :)
Awesome! I hope that you guys have fun! That's way more important than us getting updates from the game! Also jebus that's a lot of actions with high-level summoners and Rob having undead minions.
That said you guys are literally the professionals at this!
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Sean has done an awesome job on all of the elements he's adding to this game! The terrain he made was cool! If you want to see how he made the terrain check out this video! It's a video of Sean actually cutting the foam that he uses for the terrain. I tried cutting some and I enjoyed shaving down the foam with the hot wire.
Click here to see how he cut the Foam For Terrain...
I am playing the High Priestess Verandia in this campaign and she's definitely evil! It will be a challenge to play evil for once. I've done it before but never in a long-term campaign like this and never at a high level to which I could actually do some hardcore damage if I wanted to! Drow stats rock! :o)
Is that a cat watching Sean cut foam...?
The cat would consider it "supervising the efforts of an inferior life form," if I know anything about cat psychology.
That cat's interest is intense.
If you come home some day to find a bunch of foam cut up, you will know Malachi has put his learning to use.
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Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me.Yes, same...that's why I wrote a site to help with that.
Oh really, when did you get it back up? I've tried to sign in a billion times but I keep getting rejected saying invalid username. It was either primeval or primeval003... I contributed the vampire councilman if that helps.
As soon as you get me rolling I have a few mid level Pathfinder NPC's to drop on ya!!!
--Vrocked out of the house!!!
Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me.Yes, same...that's why I wrote a site to help with that.Oh really, when did you get it back up? I've tried to sign in a billion times but I keep getting rejected saying invalid username. It was either primeval or primeval003... I contributed the vampire councilman if that helps.
As soon as you get me rolling I have a few mid level Pathfinder NPC's to drop on ya!!!
--Vrocked out of the house!!!
Hold off Pathfinder RPG NPCs...there's a separate site for those. (Still in progress of being reworked and base data added to it.) :D
Yeah, DMTools has been...troubled for a while. I lost a lot of the non-statblock data that had been entered (GRRR) and that kinda broke my heart for a bit. But I used the opportunity to rework some code, made it more efficient, etc etc. Lessons learned, will be adhered to in the new site. :)
Yes, building interesting custom NPC's was a massive time sink for me.Yes, same...that's why I wrote a site to help with that.Oh really, when did you get it back up? I've tried to sign in a billion times but I keep getting rejected saying invalid username. It was either primeval or primeval003... I contributed the vampire councilman if that helps.
As soon as you get me rolling I have a few mid level Pathfinder NPC's to drop on ya!!!
--Vrocked out of the house!!!
Hold off Pathfinder RPG NPCs...there's a separate site for those. (Still in progress of being reworked and base data added to it.) :D
Yeah, DMTools has been...troubled for a while. I lost a lot of the non-statblock data that had been entered (GRRR) and that kinda broke my heart for a bit. But I used the opportunity to rework some code, made it more efficient, etc etc. Lessons learned, will be adhered to in the new site. :)
Thank you for all the effort you have put into everything, Lilith!!!
I too would love a PF version, I'm sure I could contribute many NPCs.
The big red one is Josh's eidolon.
But what IS the mini? We can't see enough of it to make it out.
No offense to anyone involved but my life as a DM would be a lot easier if all these NPC's were in ONE site not several... and PathfinderDB.com already exists... and has a scoring/rating system etc and is specifically for Pathfinder.... Just saying, and no offense to Lilith of course!
No reason both sites can't exist - I just happen to prefer mine. ;)
The big red one is Josh's eidolon.But what IS the mini? We can't see enough of it to make it out.
It's this one.
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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Yes, Sean is going all out on this campaign. When he turned on the blacklight, I think I was grinning from ear to ear. But, I think that's the MOST minis I've ever seen on a table for an encounter!
This is a game of firsts for me....first evil character. First Drow character. First time I've played above 10th level. So, when we start the encounter, and roll initiative, I'm excited. When Sean dumps a load of miniatures on the table, I get a little nervous. Wow...is this normal for high-level play? How many of these guys do I get to kill each turn?? Then the astral devas come. Then the weird other-worldly stuff comes. THEN he dumps another dozen of minis on the table. And so far, I've killed ONE chimera. ONE.
Ah. I see...message received: YOU CAN'T WIN. Retreat is in order!
If we start a campaign journal here, you can count on Phyxafein Barriduis to make some comments on the Unfaithful he encounters, as well as the glory of serving the Master, the Whip of Knowledge, Abraxas.
BTW, best part for me was the absolute silliness of James, Rob, and Josh playing up their evil drow characters.
Best quote of the night?
James: That's not funny.
Josh: Oh, yeah? Then why are you laughing?
James: I'm not laughing..I...I'm choking on my rage!
Wait until you get to the level where multiple character deaths per combat becomes the norm :)
(although Pathfinder doesn't yet have the equivalent of revivify ?yet?, so it'd take an addition to the system ...)
My favorite was when I dropped an advanced balor on top of them when they thought they were kicking butt, and it took out 3 of the 6 characters in one round.
The balor only lasted one more round, but their reaction was priceless :)
You mean, like breath of life?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/breathOfLife.html#breath-of-life
That should be a spell that only hot chicks in red leather outfits with pain sticks can cast.
Too bad you NEED a Cleric (or Oracle) to get that, as it's not on other spell lists.
Even if you have a Paladin, and 2 Healing Domain Inquisitors in your Party, where you should have more than adequate healing and status removal over-all, you simply don't have access to that spell.
...For that reason, it'd be nice if Inquisitor's Domains actually gave them the Domain Spells, so if they chose Healing Domain they would get the 5th level Breath of Life at 13th level. Likewise, it would have been nice if Druids had Healing as one of their possible Domain choices.
I get the impression BoL would have gotten on more spell lists if it HAD been classed as a "Cure..." spell. (Cure Urgent?)
...But who would want to escape hot chicks in leather, I mean the church, anyways? ...what!?
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I think gbonehead means:
Step 1: Dead PC.
Step 2: Revenance on said dead guy.
Step 3: Somehow die AGAIN in the same fight
Step 4: Repeat step 2.
and so on.
We once had a BDF who threw axes, and died. A lot. In one game, he stayed as a Revenant for the entire night, having started the game dead and ending it dead.
Revivify after it's all said and done, and Dead Guy becomes Unconscious Guy, which is easily fixed.
High level games can get weird, the more stuff you throw in. Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium were the worst offenders, IMO.
I am very interested in seeing how this plays out. If I am correct, all the PC's are Drow, and starting at 12th level? That sounds like fun to me.
-t