Pasha's Epic-Level Coliseum Morpheuon Campaign

Game Master Pasha of the Nightsands

After much consideration and internal debate, I have settled on reprising one of my favorite PCs, Vulpiano Arvanxi!

He'll be a L. Investigator/Scholar, aka Skill God. Very much an "I'm smarter than you, and thus am better" type.

Unsure about race, or epic boons atm.

Pasha of the Nightsands wrote:

@Master Han Del of the Web: Let me know if you have any questions or need feedback on anything.

Out of curiosity, did you mean to functionally ban inherent bonuses to ability scores? With ABP-lite removing the legendary gifts and a ban on crafting or buying the tomes and manuals, there's precious few ways to get inherent bonuses outside of specific classes.

I was thinking you could probably pay for spellcasting services for wishes. 26,530 gp a pop, if I'm calculating it right. (Funny how it's a little cheaper than tomes).

Godwyn Blaecwulf wrote:

Have to say that this is proving to be very enjoyable in making this character. Godwyn is slowly taking shape...

Race: Grigori Angel
Class 1: Champion of the Cause Paladin
Class 2: Incanter
Boon of the Storied Monster x2: Grigori Paragon

Still have to work out some of the details. But he's mostly there. Brute+Open Hand Sphere, with huge focus on life sphere. He's turned out to be an amazingly effective healer.

Looks like you are 2 points over the stat cap on Strength. Looks really interesting.

Thank you for catching that (and for taking a look)! With this many rules there is bound to be something missed.

I am thinking of doing a machinesmith/mechamage that I have played in the past. Are two companions too much?

GM…is there any baseline for things like AC? Godwyn has AC62 right now, and I have no idea if that is “good” or “broken.” So if there is a range for things like AC and saves I’d gladly try to fit into them.

Just to be sure: one side has to be a 3pp class, but even on the other, if we're to use a standard-ish class it has to be the Legendary version? Anyone know how to get those for HeroLab? Unless I'm missing it, I don't think I have access to those. (And I *really* don't want to pencil-whip something this complex.) Still, could do Paragon/Psionic, or double-psionic or something, maybe.

Doing a check-in. While Aether auto is really cool, I now leaning towards an immicker daevic/echo. I like the idea of having more ways to duplicate the abilities of others and echo definitely feeds into that.

If anyone knows of any other classes that allow you to mimic others, I'm down to hear about them.

Edit: Ran across Taskshaper and taking a look at it as well now.

Im thinking that Cronossus Fallen
Is an Androffa Tech Advanced Ascended Elan
Made by her creators to be the perfect being.
AI mind, in an Elan body, with skills and powers
She is 100% artificial.

Why going the group, because its what she was designed for.
To Protect and surve, all the way.

Doing a check-in. While Aether auto is really cool, I now leaning towards an immicker daevic/echo. I like the idea of having more ways to duplicate the abilities of others and echo definitely feeds into that.

If anyone knows of any other classes that allow you to mimic others, I'm down to hear about them.

Edit: Ran across Taskshaper and taking a look at it as well now.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/

Social Talents:
* Mockingbird (Ex): The vigilante can mimic almost any sort of voice, or even animal calls and sound effects, and he can throw his voice at a distance. This functions similarly to a combination of the ghost sound, ventriloquism, and vocal alteration spells. A vigilante must be at least 5th level to choose this talent.
* Morphic Mask (Su): The vigilante’s physical form in his vigilante identity can differ significantly from that of his social identity, within the norms for his race—this can include changes to the vigilante’s proportions, coloration, gender characteristics, and other physical characteristics. This increases the vigilante’s bonus from seamless guise by 2 for every significant change, as per the Disguise skill. The vigilante always assumes the same form when using this ability. A vigilante with multiple natural forms, such as a kitsune, can alter each of his forms using this talent. Source PPC:CoL

Vigilante Talents:
* Malleable Flesh (Su): Whether through mutation or alchemy, some vigilantes have flesh that is as moldable as clay and as fluid as ink. A vigilante with this talent gains the shapechanger subtype and the compression universal monster rule. In addition, the vigilante can alter his appearance as disguise self, except that the changes are physical rather than illusory. However, aspects of the vigilante’s aesthetic persist in all forms, halving the bonus on Disguise checks gained from this effect and from seamless guise. At 12th level, the vigilante can pass through narrow openings, even mere cracks, along with any item he wears or carries (to a maximum of his light load)
* Morphic Weaponry (Ex): The vigilante can shape his body into weaponry. This acts as the oozemorph shifter’s morphic weaponry ability, treating the vigilante’s level as his shifter level. The vigilante must have the shapechanger subtype to select this talent.

Totally Paizo. You gain shapechanger subtype, can alter your appearance and can sound like anything and anyone.

How ya guys gettin such high ability scores?? Best I can *maybe* pull off is a 29 for Int. That's starting with a 16(no templates or racial bonuses, yet). Did ya'll drop some stats super low to gain more starting point buy??

Templates and the Perfect Body alternate capstone. I have three stats at 40. None of my stats start at lower than 10. Being undead also helps as you dont have to buy any Con.

How ya guys gettin such high ability scores?? Best I can *maybe* pull off is a 29 for Int. That's starting with a 16(no templates or racial bonuses, yet). Did ya'll drop some stats super low to gain more starting point buy??

Hi Monkeygod this is how I got 1 to 40

Now add,
Race add +2 to int.
Age adds +3 to Int/Wis/Cha
APB gives +6+4+2 Physical states
APB gives +6+4+2 Metel states [You don't get any more than that as Legendary gifts ruled out in Game OP]
+7 from levels
The +8 in 4+2 Capstone.
Mighty {CR5} Template {note I only used 1 template that adds to states,
Felt off having ones that stack. And Mighty is on its own adding +4, And my idea is she is a Psionic construct, someone sort to make a perfect being. So having other odd templates like Undead doesn't fit that. Advanced then pushing the design to Mighty feel more like what a tech race would do.}
Leaving when used to give my PC

STATES
STR[17][+3][11][01p][TP+4][APB+2]
DEX[30][+10][14][05p][TP+4][APB+6][+4BOON][+2Capstone]
CON[22][+06][13][03p][TP+4][APB+4][Levels+1]
INT[40][+15][19][BOON][TP+4][APB+6][Race+2][+2Capstone][+3Age][Levels+4]
WIS[32][+11][17][13p][TP+4][APB+4][+2Capstone][+3Age]
CHA[30][+10][17][13p][TP+4][APB+2][+2Capstone][+3Age][Levels+2]

Hope that helps

Fallen
Legendary Investigator L20 + Ascendant-Psion - L20 Overmind T1 / Mythic Genius T1 [LG]

New background,
Making Fallen male feels better.
IMAGE MALE Cronossuss Fallen

Fallen was activated by the planet Androffa, tasked with protection of its people and reality from the destructive forces. Which he did up until the great war. Made to be the pinnacle of Psionic and technological invention he form follows function. He was gifted with powers and abilities beyond any norm. After the great war, Fallen went searching for the lost generation ship Divinity. but was unable to find it. How ever he did discovering a means to travel to other planes. Where he worked with a number of organisations on his prime directive. Protect the people and reality from the destructive forces.

He likes cats, fav color is Electric blue, thinks 8 is a lucky number, does not like the smell of Cheese, Will always try and help a child in trouble, no matter the race. Does not like slavery and thinks its an abhorrent practice. Most of all he always tries to Stands for all that is good and true.

For strength:

16 (base) + 5 (levels) + 5 (Incanter specialization) + 8 (grigori exemplar large) + 6 (ABP) = 40

Good stat boosting options are Incanter or sorcerer for bloodlines, and wizard for transmutation school. Though the latter might not work with ABP. But templates are the easiest way to get high stats.

For one boon you can get +6 in templates.

Advanced is only +1. AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.

And that leaves you +5 to go! And it can get crazy…for example.

Half Dragon It is +2, and among a host of benefits gives Str +8, Con +6, Int +2, Cha +2.

So hypothetically…someone could take the above with Boon of the Well-Traveled Wanderer for 10 levels of Dragon Disciple. +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int.

Totals up to +16 Str, +12 Con, +8 Int, +6 Cha…and that’s with +2 worth of templates still being available. Could throw on something flavorful like elemental infusion to go off the dragon stuff.

Anyways, that’s just an off hand example of how to get stats up. :)

So yeah…

@Pasha, what would Desna of Golarion think of the Dreamlands? I'm certain Josten would ask his 'Auntie' all about it before entering the realm.

I am interested in putting something together. How long do we have to get a character built?

Ok, equipment buying, how does it work???

For example a PC who wants to have a
Wild, Spirit Bonded, Mithral Breastplate +5.

Normal pricing would be 74350 (+8=64000, 6000 Spirit Bonded, 4000 Mithral, 350 MW Breastplate)

In pure ABP, this would require 2 Legendary Gifts (and you could add another +1 armor ability, or have a shield as well), and 10350 gp 6000 Spirit Bonded, 4000 Mithral, 350 MW Breastplate).

Under this partial ABP system, what do you do?

Is there a good place to get information on Hyraetan, the Circle of Wardens, and the Parities?

@Master Han Del of the Web: It wasn't my intention to ban inherent bonuses and you can still get them from a few sources. I just wanted to make it harder to get them since everyone already has a huge variety of ways to reach stat caps: generous ability score generation, ABP-lite bonuses, the higher level increases, mythic boosts, possible templates, etc and they're not really as necessary.

@Angoldlil Luithoriel: The only things from 3.X I'm willing to consider are races, so I'm going to rule no on the Archwizard PrC.

@andreww: Crafting follows the established rules for everything, including all the subsystems and options within crafting.

@Vulpiano Arvanxi: Is it safe to assume that your character is from Golarion given that he's an Arvanxi?

@trawets91: Two companions isn't a huge amount and I'm fine with that. I use Odin as the golden standard for what constitutes a 'reasonable' companion count: he had Sleipnir, Freki, Geri, Huginn, and Muninn. Anything above five starts pushing things and could end up making combat a mess to run.

@Godwyn Blaecwulf: I don't really have any guidelines beyond asking players to try and meet any benchmarks relevant to their character. My encounters were optimized to meet or exceed their benchmark numbers, so players need to go into things with that knowledge.

@Ouachitonian: If you're looking to take a standard class on the non-dedicated side of the gestalt, it either has to be a Legendary version or a class without one like the Vigilante. Not every Legendary Class book has an actual class in it and I can help you out if you have questions about whether one exists.

I'm one of the madmen that refuses to use HeroLab, so I'm completely useless helping you on that front.

@"The Lucky Halfling": Echo is obviously the premier option here, but I see you already looked into that one. How exact are we talking about when it comes to mimicry? Are we talking mimic-lite where you can just use abilities and pass them off as mimicry or are we talking about full-on Final Fantasy 6 Gogo levels? Whatever the case, I'd recommend looking into Path of War's Shattered Mirror style if you've got the time. It has a lot of cool tricks: sharing magical effects with a linked opponent, copying strike effects against another foe, trading effects with foes, moving when the target moves, causing spells cast on you to reflect to allies, AoOing any time you're hit in melee, stealing abilities used against you, copying harmful effects to use against other opponents, etc. Shattered Mirror is more than that though and I'd recommend giving it a look. The Mirrorkin race is also tailored to copying other creatures on a fundamental level. There's a small mountain of mimic-style third-party out there, but these are some of the better options to look into.

Both the Lost Spheres wordpress blog and the Spheres Wiki has some information on Hyraeatan and the Parities. Not sure if either of them have any information on the Wardens though. Still, those two should be able to give you all the information you need without having to buy the City of Seven Seraphs book.

@Monkeygod: The Savant Creature template gives a massive +10 INT. Since you're going for Investigator/Scholar, I'd say that's grounds to take the template's advice and make it a +2 CR template. Still, that's a lot of bang for your buck considering that it gets huge buffs to INT and WIS- although a penalty to physical scores and CHA,- Uncanny Dodge, the ridiculously good Deductive Leap that allows it to replace the normal ability score mods to saves with INT once a round, a free Blind-Fight feat, chooses 10 skills that it can take 10 on at any time, etc. There's a rundown of it on d20pfsrd and it's also in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary if you have that book.

@TheWaskally: Considering her child-like sense of wonder and her status as a dream goddess, it's safe to say that she has a soft spot for the Dreamlands and knows a lot about it.

@Malinor: Everyone has around a month to get everything pulled together, maybe a little longer if it looks like a few people still need an extra day or three around that time.

@pad300: Just purchase it as normal. Part of the reason I wanted to go with a lite version of ABP is because I like standard weapon/armor progression and attunements cut into those.

Much appreciated! I was looking at them, but was not sure based on name discrepancies.

Currently I'm looking pretty hard at Echo and Taskshaper. I'll have to take a look at those as well.

Edit: Are we able to access feats from our chosen Parity? Will fame and prestige be used?

“ Ouachitonian: If you're looking to take a standard class on the non-dedicated side of the gestalt, it either has to be a Legendary version or a class without one like the Vigilante. Not every Legendary Class book has an actual class in it and I can help you out if you have questions about whether one exists.”

I realize that my Paladin side isn’t legendary. Where are the rules for that?

Also…I realize that Godwyn technically has leadership due to a class feature. Does he keep that? If so, can the cohort take his crafting feats for him? At this power (and complexity) level I’m not interested in controlling more than one character.

I realize that my Paladin side isn’t legendary. Where are the rules for that?

They are all HERE.

“ Ouachitonian: If you're looking to take a standard class on the non-dedicated side of the gestalt, it either has to be a Legendary version or a class without one like the Vigilante. Not every Legendary Class book has an actual class in it and I can help you out if you have questions about whether one exists.”

I realize that my Paladin side isn’t legendary. Where are the rules for that?

Also…I realize that Godwyn technically has leadership due to a class feature. Does he keep that? If so, can the cohort take his crafting feats for him? At this power (and complexity) level I’m not interested in controlling more than one character.

I think d20pfsrd has them all.

As an alternative to Legendary classes (which I've never actually used and still don't know if there's a HeroLab mod for), can we get some of that flavor by taking one of the Class Templates (like Paladin for the above example)? (Assuming we take the boon that gives template levels, of course.)

He is starting to come together. I still have a lot of gold to spend and am struggling to find things to spend it on. I have hit my crafting limit so I may leave it for Miracle components.

He is starting to come together. I still have a lot of gold to spend and am struggling to find things to spend it on. I have hit my crafting limit so I may leave it for Miracle components.

Str 24 (+7) , Dex 40 (+15) , Con —, Int 34 (+12), Wis 40 (+15) , Cha 40 (+15) AC 74 556; fast healing 26, regeneration 5 and 36 to all saves.

Wow! I tip my hat to you. As someone who often optimizes, I am in awe as towards how you pulled that together.

I decided on Yaksha as my race, and their paragon class x2 as my epic boons. It's a lot weaker and less diverse(it lacks options like families or fiendish ancestries)than some of the other paragon classes, but it's got some rather neat abilities that I feel fits my overall concept.

Thus this is my ability spread, with racial, enhancement, and level up bonuses applied(not all that great, but I'll make it work, I hope):

Str: 12
Dex: 22
Con: 18
Int: 29
Wis: 14
Cha: 22

I am running QT to see I have not messed up, But Cronosuss Fallen is mostily done.

Originally an Androffa'on experiment, once he learned how to planes travel he has spent a long time learning and evioliving himself. He is good, and will try and do good deeds where he can. Elan Ascendant Pison, , legendary Investigator / Overmind Genius,
Core roll a Fixer, Pison powers, tech skills, lots of skills, Telepathic group hub. He can hit hard when he needs to, heal and protect.
If you fail a save he can jump in and give you a second chance.

In personality he is low key, being human/elf looking.
And likes to think his way out of things. He was design to be the perfect tool/being. But he doesn't think he is, his is humble and knows there is no such thing as perfection. he is kind and respectful of others. No matter rank, class or race. He dose not like weapons and carries none, or in fact armor. His only companion the tiny Psicrystal Alrzion.

I know other players will make Beasts of builds, I had a core idea of what Fallen would be and kept to that.

I will expand his backstory and link him into the group GM

Question, are we using the background skills variant? @Pasha did not put that system into the initial document, but many of the posted characters are using them (in addition to the +3 skill point bonus).

andreww wrote:

Godwyn Blaecwulf wrote:

Have to say that this is proving to be very enjoyable in making this character. Godwyn is slowly taking shape...

Race: Grigori Angel
Class 1: Champion of the Cause Paladin
Class 2: Incanter
Boon of the Storied Monster x2: Grigori Paragon

Still have to work out some of the details. But he's mostly there. Brute+Open Hand Sphere, with huge focus on life sphere. He's turned out to be an amazingly effective healer.

Looks like you are 2 points over the stat cap on Strength. Looks really interesting.

Thank you for catching that (and for taking a look)! With this many rules there is bound to be something missed.

I took another look at him and it looks like you are missing another Mythic feat. We get one at Tier 1 plus two bonus feats for a total of three. I only see Mythic Vital Strike and Improved Mythic Vital Strike unless I am missing something.

Working on this character, but still have a lot to do.

For race I've chosen a shadow fey which is from the setting. Seems pretty cool. For classes, he'll be a raveler on one side and a legendary wizard (with some dips) on the other. Plan is to make him the uttermost fireball sling fiend. I'm not joking. I'll be doing my best to turn this classic spell into an utility monster that will rival 9th level spells!

For boons I've taken the PrC levels (which will be a combination of evangelist, rage prophet and winter witch) and the templates (winter fey, giant, elemental-infused, limbjack and sublime). Yeah, some of these templates aren't really good, and some counter each other, but I've chosen them in large part for the flavor, with the exception of sublime that is just really good.

No idea on the Mythic paths still.

Question, are we using the background skills variant? @Pasha did not put that system into the initial document, but many of the posted characters are using them (in addition to the +3 skill point bonus).

Sort of? Under the 'feats, skills, traits' section, it says we all classes get +3 skills per level, which may be used on both regular and background skills.

I just wanted to clarify something since the topic of Vital Strike has come up in private messages and there have been a few people building with it in mind. Vital Strike's wording is when you use THE attack action- not AN attack action- then XYZ. That's an important difference because it means that Vital Strike cannot be stacked with a lot of abilities that count as special attack actions. Now there are still some instances where it does, so feel free to ask me if it interacts with another rule or not.

@"The Lucky Halfling": You can take pretty much any content related to the Parities, but Fame isn't going to be used.

@Godwyn Blaecwulf: Legendary Paladin is one of those weird books that actually doesn't have a legendary variant class in it. It has some alternative abilities you can swap in like replacing Mercies with Scourges, Smite Evil with Repel Evil, etc, but there isn't a Legendary Paladin class per se so you can use the normal Paladin class.

@Ouachitonian: Most of the Class Templates are viable for the epic boon, but ask just in case the one you're looking at isn't.

@Monkeygod: Yaksha are a VERY cool option to me, but I could be biased because the Rakshasa family of outsiders are in my top five along with angels, archons, kytons, and genies.

@Cronossus Fallen of Time: I was looking over your character and saw that you took the Mighty template. That's one of the templates I'm banning, so there needs to be some changes on that front. Be sure to clear templates with me unless I've already ruled on them elsewhere so there's no confusion.

@pad300: I gave extra skill points that could be spent on either normal skills or Background Skills, but didn't give Background Skills as its own separate thing. Hopefully not too many people thought otherwise, but it's an easy mistake to both make and fix if so.

@Qeetan'Chachol Shaaldanarth: Shadow Fey became one of my favorite races a few years back after reading and running through a modified Courts of the Shadow Fey game. Their society is just neat.

I'll allow the templates you requested.

Ok, I think my build plan is coming together, conceptually. He’ll be a half-celestial Fire Giant Paladin of Ragathiel, one of that Empyreal Lord’s most capable servants. Perhaps even his son, but maybe the son of one of his angelic servants and a fire giantess. A towering beacon of celestial fire, cleansing the world of evil.

Mechanically, he’ll be a Jotun Soulknife 20/Jotun Paragon 10/Pyrokineticist 10 (the psionic prestige class, not a fire-wielding Kineticist). Taking only 10 paragon levels keeps me at Huge, which I think will be more manageable that Colossal (if I took the full 20 levels). I’m leaning toward taking the Boons Evolution’s Chosen (Half-Celestial and Paladin templates) and Well-Traveled Wanderer (for the Crimson Templar Prestige Class’s abilities. Probably pick up a Sacred Avenger and dual-wield it with his Pyrokineticist fire lash. Like an anti-Balor.

Does that make sense to you, GM? Any options there that I can’t take, or questions you have?

stuff about background skills

I had thought you were using them, I can change easily enough.

@Cronossus Fallen of Time: I was looking over your character and saw that you took the Mighty template. That's one of the templates I'm banning, so there needs to be some changes on that front. Be sure to clear templates with me unless I've already ruled on them elsewhere so there's no confusion.

Arr. Oke-doky GM, not a problem. I will have a look and see what I can do with others, truth is could be more fun this way. :)

On the vine of him being a good guy, would you allow, Sending PM GM, :)
Im thinking of changing his race to Aasimar, now I just keep having the urge to make him into an Angel. In fact looking at the setting, I could redesign Cronossus Fallen as an Aasimar/Half Celestial Angel Temple its really very appealing.

Dang, we gots 3 potential angels?? And here I am, a Yaksha/Rakshasa, who will probably be evil, lol

Another question for @Pasha

What the interaction between feats like Mythic Power Attack (and Weapon Finesse) and Elephant in the Room, which got rid of these feats (by giving them to everybody for free as combat options)?

Do you get Mythic Power Attack for free, or you still have to take the mythic feat (Mythic Power Attack) to get the benefits, or you can't take Mythic Power Attack at all because you don't have the pre-req...

Dang, we gots 3 potential angels?? And here I am, a Yaksha/Rakshasa, who will probably be evil, lol

Haha, What about we become Hells Angels, have Magic Motorbikes hehe.

But you have a point, Looking at templates BOON, I think it's so tempting, and if you take it, I think most will fall into 4 camps.

1: Undeadeded shadow/worm walking/vampre... 2: Fendi possessed 3: Angeli Possessed 4: Godzilla size stompers

SOOoooo, Im test not using it and take, Boon of the Well-Traveled Wanderer and Boon of the Apex Entity. And change my PCs race to Android, I want to see what the gap will be if you don't take CR6 templates

EDIT: Well I did and the gap is bad like really, really bad, 6CR of template levels with no level loss from PC is massive, Templtes just add so much, Immunities, Skill bonus, Stats getting close to max. Advanced alone is just 1CR and your getting +4 to all starts, +2 to all rolls. Any other way of getting that costs a lot. And you still have 5CR of templates left to play with. Without temples 6CR Template BOON your kind of much weaker.

Monkeygod wrote:

Dang, we gots 3 potential angels?? And here I am, a Yaksha/Rakshasa, who will probably be evil, lol

Haha, What about we become Hells Angels, have Magic Motorbikes hehe.

But you have a point, Looking at templates BOON, I think it's so tempting, and if you take it, I think most will fall into 4 camps.

1: Undeadeded shadow/worm walking/vampre... 2: Fendi possessed 3: Angeli Possessed 4: Godzilla size stompers

SOOoooo, Im test not using it and take, Boon of the Well-Traveled Wanderer and Boon of the Apex Entity. And change my PCs race to Android, I want to see what the gap will be if you don't take CR6 templates

EDIT: Well I did and the gap is bad like really, really bad, 6CR of template levels with no level loss from PC is massive, Templtes just add so much, Immunities, Skill bonus, Stats getting close to max. Advanced alone is just 1CR and your getting +4 to all starts, +2 to all rolls. Any other way of getting that costs a lot. And you still have 5CR of templates left to play with. Without temples 6CR Template BOON your kind of much weaker.

Yeap, I found that out too(you can see my stats above which lack any template boosts), which is kinda unfortunate in that it almost *forces* you to take templates in order to have good numbers at this level of power.

It's made worse by the fact that due to using both ABP *and* not getting the legendary gifts, we can only get a +6 enhancement bonus to one mental stat and one physical. Whereas if we were just spending monies, we could easily afford both items that grant +6 to three stats.

I would prefer not to have to take templates, but I just feel like a liability without them.

For example, my current saves(without templates or any buffs) are:

Fort +15, Ref +23, Will +19.

Meanwhile, some of ya'll got double(+) that for all 3....

It depends on how many high stats you need.

With 35pb you easily can have an 18 on your main stat. Considering a +2 from race and the +6 from ABP you are already at 26. There are many classes and PrCs that give you stats as well, either permanent or as part of a temporary boost.

It also depends on how much you care for fluff versus just power. Some template are clearly too good and if you are not careful you can turn your PC into a pool of nonsense. Also, many templates are locked behind an evil alignment. It took me a while to find ones that would not be just ridiculous, since I personally avoided the more cheesy ones and only took one (sublime) that was mostly just for power.

I agree Monkeygod, just feel some players with 30+ stats and saves in the 40's would for me be as a GM a challenge, trying very hard not to one shot kill players not CR Maxing. Our DM did hint and banning some templates but there are so many meant for monster-challengers in game and not really players use. It does feel like, all or nothing with them.

@Qeetan'Chachol
But you are still using them, try and compare your outcome to others and I think you will see why the powerlevel balance is off. I'm thinking of using a whole other PC, so I can get it to work, because she is Evil.

Cronossuss Fallen here
The good commander here is the PC I am thinking of using now,
She would have a legendary Item and Take fiendish Templates,
Advanced-half fiend, with her possessed hell blade as her legendary Item.

She is from the 9 Hells as a Hells law-enforcer.
FEMALE ADVANCED(CR1) DROW NOBLE(CR2) DDEVIL BOUND {CR1} HELL-FIRE CREATURE(CR2): [Outsider {native}] BLACK THORN KNIGHT
CLASSES:
LEGENDARY INVESTIGATOR L20 / T1 PATH OF THE MYSIC T1
LEGENDARY CLERIC+PLANAR ENVOY L20 / MYTHIC PATH OF THE OATH BOUND T1

For what it's worth...I'm a strong believer in guidelines as towards what number ranges should be. For example...

Armor Class:

Qeetan'Chachol (34)
Cronossuss (49)
Godwyn (63)
Candraphon (74)

That spread is crazy. As a GM, how do you balance that? If you have enemies which can hit Candraphon, then it means everyone else will be hit on a 2+. If you have enemies which could possibly miss Godwyn, then Candraphon will only be hit on a 20.

That's an impossible needle to thread. But if there were maxes on things besides stats (such as...Max AC is 50, for example) then it would force some of the numbers to be more or less in line with each other.

But yeah...templates are insane in their power spikes. It was really hard for me to not take them. I still feel like I made something quite OP, but it could be even stronger with them.

I agree Monkeygod, just feel some players with 30+ stats and saves in the 40's would for me be as a GM a challenge, trying very hard not to one shot kill players not CR Maxing. Our DM did hint and banning some templates but there are so many meant for monster-challengers in game and not really players use. It does feel like, all or nothing with them.

@Qeetan'Chachol
But you are still using them, try and compare your outcome to others and I think you will see why the powerlevel balance is off. I'm thinking of using a whole other PC, so I can get it to work, because she is Evil.

That’s why I’m always a bit leery of mixing in 3pp, especially from several different sources. Balance vs Paizo material from one 3pp company is often hit-or-miss, but they often balance really badly against each other.

Said screw it...dropped 10 levels of Grigori Paragon, and added 6 CR worth of templates. Advanced, Fighter Creature, Ranger Creature, Holy. The optimizer in me rejoiced at that. Certainly felt good to see the stats jump up for very little lost. :)

Angel Form Human Form

Submissions Thus Far

Cronossuss
* Alignment: NG
* Race: Android
* Classes: Legendary Investigator / Psion-Telepath
* Mythic: Overmind / Genius

Josten
* Classes: Godling / Bard

Vulpiano
* Alignment: CG
* Classes: Scholar / Investigator

Godwyn
* Alignment: LG
* Race: Angel
* Classes: Paladin / Incanter
* Mythic: Spheremaster / Gifted

Azal-Ki-Lin
* Alignment: LN
* Race: Drow Noble
* Classes: Legendary Cleric / Investigator
* Mythic: Bonded / Path of the Mythic

Qeetan
* Alignment: N
* Race: Fey
* Classes: Raveler 20 // legendary arcanist 1/legendary sorcerer 1/legendary oracle 1/legendary wizard 17 // XXX tier 1

Candraphon
* Alignment: LN
* Race: Augmented Undead Human
* Classes: Legendary Sorcerer / Mighty Godling
* Mythic: Archmage / Trickster

@Qeetan'Chachol

But you are still using them, try and compare your outcome to others and I think you will see why the powerlevel balance is off. I'm thinking of using a whole other PC, so I can get it to work, because she is Evil.

Yes, I am, because templates are a novelty for me as the vast majority of games do not allow them. Even so, I took a lot of care in choosing my templates to balance between power and fluff. As an example, the giant template gives me strength and large size, the former being useless for me and the later actually horrible for as a spellslinger wizard I'd much rather be tiny. Another example, the limbjack, that gives me more Strength, some useless abilities and weaknesses, but it seemed really cool. My single "powerful" template is sublime and even so don't get even closer to other options like the banned Mighty you've first chosen. The GM already gave me the green light on my choices.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I was not saying that Monkeygod should not take the templates, just pointing out that there are other ways to get them and that some builds do not need many high stats. Mine, as an example, do not actually need them as I only really care about Intelligence and Constitution.

Now, about balance, I personally feel this should not be a concern. You take four 20th level characters using just the options from the core rulebook and you'll find there is no balance. You add the full PF rulebooks and the balance becomes even more impossible. You then make it gestalt with mandatory 3pp chosen from a huge number of sources? There is absolutely no balance whatsoever.

The GM mentioned he is experienced with high power games and from what I understood this power level is what he wants as long as we do not make "auto-win" nonsense.

My personal philosophy when building characters so powerful is to choose a role (and perhaps a secondary role) and try to make it as powerful/competent as possible in the chosen role, trusting the other players will do the same for their intended roles. This allows all of us great freedom and a good chance that we'll not be stepping on each other's toes. As long as I can feel powerful in my chosen role, I do not give a damn about how strong/weak he'll be in comparison to the other PCs.

For Qeetan, my plan is for him to be a big spellslinger with some good utility as secondary role and hopefully not squishy. I'll probably be good in some skills, but will not specialize in them. Will also stay away from healing, summons, buffing, martial combat, etc.

Submissions Thus Far

Candraphon is terribly sad to have been overlooked...

Godwyn Blaecwulf wrote:

Submissions Thus Far

Candraphon is terribly sad to have been overlooked...

While I assure you it was not intentional, it might have been subconscious. Because Candraphon is very, very scary. ;) Luckily you reminded me in time so I could easily edit it in.