Fighting with a heavy weapon and spells

Hello everyone,

I am not exceedingly familiar with the Bloodrager, Alchemist or Investigator, so I am looking for some advice.

My main question would be: what would be the best option to build a character that can hit as hard as a two-hander will allow (maybe throwing some reach shenanigans into the mix), but at the same time be able to buff himself in an efficient manner, mainly defensive and utility wise (I'm thinking Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, even Fly, Haste, Invisibility, etc)?

My idea is to build a martial that has an edge over what is usually expected - what I mean is, if he is exchanging hits with a bad guy with a strong to-hit, it will make a HUGE difference if a Mirror Image popped up; and if he is facing multiple opponents with low to-hit, perhaps a Shield spell would make the difference; Fly to chase a pesky flying archer, etc, etc. The versatility can be endless.

I have a couple of specific doubts regarding all this, but would really like to hear the experts opinions before I start firing away :D

I'll just drop one though, as far as Alchemy is concerned - I am aware that the Mutagen route is strong, because it can buff your main fighting stat sky high, whether it is Dex or Str, but I was leaning more towards making good use of Extracts, since I don't really like lowering my Wisdom - is that a wrong way to look at it?

Any feedback would be appreciated, so thanks in advance.

EDIT: I value out of combat utility a lot, so that is perhaps a point in favor of the Investigator?

I dont undestand the question. Two handling a big stick is a good way for the 3 classes you name. Using different buffs will cost actions unless you are a high level bloodrager and that limitation there usefulness but you can most likely find time for a single buff round in most figths.

Alchestigators should be using Extracts alongside Mutagens.

That said, Bloodrager hits harder and that seems to be priority A, so go with that.

Bloodrager is probably more in line with what you're thinking. The Bloodrager gets all the spells you're asking about, and the bloodline you would want is Destined(don't forget to grab the fate's favoured trait), and probably the Steelblood+Primalist archetype. You'll be dealing as much damage as a normal barbarian with two-handers and have a ton of defensive buffs from raging. I would suggest also giving up your first bloodrage power for a familiar with the bloodline familiars option and getting a bodyguard or mauler familiar to assist you. Then give up your 8th and 12th level bloodline powers to grab 4 barbarian rage powers. I suggest lesser beast totem, beast totem, greater beast totem, and superstition. Then go down AC buffing feat paths and you should end up with +1/3&1/4 level to saving throws, +1/3&1/4 level to AC, the ability to full attack on a charge and cast spells up to 4th level while wearing the heaviest armour. Your AC and save boosts are listed below(including wearing full plate, but not including any magic items or dexterity bonus etc)

Alchemist, with a single level of something martial, is a good way to go.

The Bloodrager doesn't get 2nd level spells until level 8.

I dont undestand the question. Two handling a big stick is a good way for the 3 classes you name. Using different buffs will cost actions unless you are a high level bloodrager and that limitation there usefulness but you can most likely find time for a single buff round in most figths.

I understand your point Cap. Darling - my question here is kind of understanding the difference on how these classes accomplish that exact same role - if they can frontline or not, how effectively they can actually pull the spells out of their hat, etc - inquiring from others that have played those classes before, and perhaps in those roles, and how they went about doing it.

So, what is the difference between a Bloodrager, and Investigator, or an Alchemist wielding a 2-hander.

Alchestigators should be using Extracts alongside Mutagens.

That said, Bloodrager hits harder and that seems to be priority A, so go with that.

I agree that the Bloodrager will hit harder, as well as some other advantages (for example Arcane Bloodline simply seems more efficient with the spells it puts into play after level...5?) - what seems to hurt is that they cast less, and only start casting at level 5, which means on the versatility/survivability/utility side, they seem to be gimped right off the bat. And their skill list is just... Sad. Even more so because Int will almost always be at 10, or lower :/

Bloodrager is probably more in line with what you're thinking. The Bloodrager gets all the spells you're asking about, and the bloodline you would want is Destined(don't forget to grab the fate's favoured trait), and probably the Steelblood+Primalist archetype. You'll be dealing as much damage as a normal barbarian with two-handers and have a ton of defensive buffs from raging. I would suggest also giving up your first bloodrage power for a familiar with the bloodline familiars option and getting a bodyguard or mauler familiar to assist you. Then give up your 8th and 12th level bloodline powers to grab 4 barbarian rage powers. I suggest lesser beast totem, beast totem, greater beast totem, and superstition. Then go down AC buffing feat paths and you should end up with +1/3&1/4 level to saving throws, +1/3&1/4 level to AC, the ability to full attack on a charge and cast spells up to 4th level while wearing the heaviest armour. Your AC and save boosts are listed below(including wearing full plate, but not including any magic items or dexterity bonus etc)** spoiler omitted **

Wouldn't the Arcane bloodline offer me more bang for my buck? I admit I haven't been able to completely follow through all the information you provided (thank you a lot by the way) - I am still digesting it. But I get the feeling I am giving up a lot of what makes the Bloodrager different from the Barbarian - does this make any sense?

Also, when you say 1 AC +8, do you mean my AC is is base 18?

Alchemist, with a single level of something martial, is a good way to go.

The Bloodrager doesn't get 2nd level spells until level 8.

That was one of the issues I was pointing out - isn't that just too late?

Any suggestions on Alchemist archetypes for example? Or exactly what 'anything martial' you would suggest? :D

Cap. Darling wrote:

I dont undestand the question. Two handling a big stick is a good way for the 3 classes you name. Using different buffs will cost actions unless you are a high level bloodrager and that limitation there usefulness but you can most likely find time for a single buff round in most figths.

I understand your point Cap. Darling - my question here is kind of understanding the difference on how these classes accomplish that exact same role - if they can frontline or not, how effectively they can actually pull the spells out of their hat, etc - inquiring from others that have played those classes before, and perhaps in those roles, and how they went about doing it.

So, what is the difference between a Bloodrager, and Investigator, or an Alchemist wielding a 2-hander.

...

The bloodrager have rage it gives him a free to activate short time buff and he gets bloodline powers that allow him to grow, strech, or svevral other cool things or he can Trade them for rage powers. I like a bloodrider half orc with a Triceatop Mount and a Lance but that is not for everybody. And they get some spells along with a free cast when raging at level 11.

Recall that Magus is also another decent option. Alchemists are better self-buffers and bloodragers will end up hitting the hardest, but magus has all martial weapons and can cast and fight. It's 3/4 BAB, which isn't optimal, but if you're not playing a high-level bloodrager, this could be the way to go.

Investigator is good with skills, but is rather bad at actual combat. Though you have alchemy like an inquisitor and you can pick up a mutagen, the character is a very skill-centric character and doesn't get good two-handers to play with.

Oh, let me just ask, what levels are you planning to play this character?

Yes Albion, that's base 18 with plate and without any stats. The bonuses I listed are bonuses while wearing plate. If you get mithril plate then your eventual max dex for it will be +7 so as long as you aren't a ranged character from level 1 you should be fine. Arcane was going to be my other suggestion, it is good as well, but less defensive. You do give up some of what makes the bloodrager different, but keep 3/5 of your powers so you're still very different(the powers you gave up were offensive ones, as I thought you wanted a defensive build) You will be crazy hard to damage at high levels if you still buy a +7 Resistance bonus and grab NA bonuses at high levels you won't be able to be hit or affected by anything pretty much.

Just to throw out a teaser, the new mindblade archetype for the magus from Occult Adventures allows for Spell Combat with 2-handers eventually (level 13 so not great for PFS). Its also a spontaneous int-based caster which is unique. (Mindblade loses anything tangentially related to prepared spellcasting, spell combat improvements, and medium/heavy armor but is spontaneous, can TWF or 2-hand with spell combat, and summons either a single upto +7 weapon or 2 +5 weapons)

May I suggest Oracle?
Ancient Lorekeeper Archetype can give you any arcane spells you dream of plus you have access to the wonderful cleric list, which has many nice buffs (Divine Power, Blesing of Fervor, etc)
Mystery can be Battle, Metal, Wood, etc...

Bloodrager is a straightforward and very powerful option, but it's quite weak on spells overall. If all you care about is self-buffing, the Arcane Bloodline takes care of a lot of stuff anyhow.

A Bloodrager 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Dragon Disciple 4/ ? is similar in many ways - it lags in martial ability at first, but it has far, far more spellcasting behind it, including being able to throw some amped-up blasting spells. By level 10 you can go different roads depending on what you want, though Eldritch Knight is the most solid at that point, perhaps with a couple more Sorcerer for spells/powers.

Oracle is very powerful, and the mysteries that let you add Charisma to AC are amazingly good. The only issue with using the Ancient Elven Lorekeeper archetype to grab arcane buffs is that you must be Elf or Half-Elf (and not Half-Elf in PFS). A dip in Barbarian is perfect for Oracle, since the Lame curse and Barbarian Fast Movement cancel out, leaving you with fatigue immunity by 6 - meaning you can start and stop rage at will without any issues.

If you want to try to preserve some non-blasty spellcasting at a reasonable level you can go crossblooded Fey/Draconic Dragon Disciple and Dual Talent Human so that things like Hideous Laughter and Confusion get a DC boost and stay relevant.

For a Big Stick Alchemist, I'd go with a single level of either:
*Gendarme Cavalier, for bonus Power Attack, with Order of the Seal.
*Armored Hulk Unchained Barbarian
*Steelblood Bloodrager, Elemental bloodline.

The rest of your levels go into Alchemist. Either Grenadier, for additional elemental damage on your melee attacks, or Beastmorph, for additional buffs while using mutagen.

Your combat style is two-handed reach weapon, and you can spend the actions to drink buff extracts or throw bombs, letting your enemies come to you and eat opportunity attacks. Your must-have feats are Combat Reflexes, Opening Volley and Power Attack. Statwise, I'd go with Str 16+2, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7.

Oh, let me just ask, what levels are you planning to play this character?

Apologies for the delayed answer - I am currently pondering a character at level 15, which makes it all a challenge, mainly if dealing with classes I do not master. And I believe also the whole game changes a lot at higher levels.

In any case I prefer an 'organically grown' character which I would be able to use at various levels, but understand some builds come together later during their career.

That being said, I'll start off with a question about magus that has always haunted me - lets imagine I fight with a two handed weapon - will I be able to use Spell combat at all? If for example, I wish to use it, can I simply hold the weapon in one hand and cast, forfeiting the attack for that around? If I have multiple iterative, do I forfeit all attacks? What about a longsword? Can I opt to fight one handed when I want to use spell combat and/or spellstrike on a given round? Then revert to fighting two handed?

Actually, make that two questions, what are the options to consistently improve the Magus to-hit? (I mean, apart from True Strike)

Just to throw out a teaser, the new mindblade archetype for the magus from Occult Adventures allows for Spell Combat with 2-handers eventually (level 13 so not great for PFS). Its also a spontaneous int-based caster which is unique. (Mindblade loses anything tangentially related to prepared spellcasting, spell combat improvements, and medium/heavy armor but is spontaneous, can TWF or 2-hand with spell combat, and summons either a single upto +7 weapon or 2 +5 weapons)

That might be actually a nice idea, but I don't own Occult Adventures :D

@Ellioti and BadBird: Could you guys show me how to go about with that Oracle option? Does he get that many arcane spells?

Also BadBird, why the single Bloodrager dip on your suggested builds?

Also, is there any method by which an Alchemist can drink an Extract faster than a standard action?

Also BadBird, why the single Bloodrager dip on your suggested builds?

One level of Bloodrager or Barbarian gets you the ability to rage, which increases your melee ability with a two-handed weapon considerably. With the feat Extra Rage, you can have quite a few rounds of rage per day.

For the Dragon Disciple it's more important, because you get better weapon proficiency and your base attack bonus ends up better (and you especially need the help with attacking things early on). For the Oracle it's just handy to have and works really well with the Lame curse, but it's not at all necessary.

@Ellioti and BadBird: Could you guys show me how to go about with that Oracle option? Does he get that many arcane spells?

The Ancient Elven Lorekeeper gets to pick one arcane spell of his choice every time he would get a bonus spell, but at a modified level. So at Oracle 4 you get a level 1 arcane spell, at oracle 6 you get a level 2 arcane spell, 8/3, 10/4... and so on. Useful for grabbing a few great spells like Hideous Laughter or Confusion or Mirror Image and feeling more arcane.

Note that it's very difficult to swing a two-hander around really well and also cast spells really well. With the right builds you can do a lot of things well, but you can't have it all (at least with lots of arcane spells in there). It's even possible to create a Cleric who is very deadly in combat and gets a couple of good arcane picks.

Is your concept strong/wise/holy, or strong/charismatic/mystical, or strong/charismatic/sorcerous, or even just so wise that his attack and defense and spells are all wisdom-based? Does he throw powerful blasing spells or focus on controlling enemies with magic or a bit of both? Does he run around in heavy armor, or with lighter or no armor and magic defenses, or even in a robe like a Monk?

Thank you for all your responses so far BadBird.

Here's what pleases me in the Bloodrager vs. the Dragon Disciple - the action economy: having a spell like Blur or Haste activate immediately as you enter a rage is simply uncanny :D

However, the Dragon Disciple will have a much vaster range of spells in comparison, and that may tilt the scale actually.

As far as I see it, the Ancient Elven Lorekeeper does not have enough Arcane for me :D

As far as concept, my idea is that of a resourceful Martial - perhaps Strong/Arcane, and not necessarily Charismatic, though I would really appreciate it if he was. A guy that hits hard, and is able to counter specific situations with magic - enemy flying? He flies too; Enemy swings HARD? He Mirror Images, etc.

I would rather he ran around with lighter/medium armor, to be mobile, and able to do other things besides turtling inside a can.

Also, is there any method by which an Alchemist can drink an Extract faster than a standard action?

Until it gets nerfed, Potion Glutton from Inner Sea Gods is explicitly not limited to potions; It's free quicken for Alchemists and a great boon to Drunken Rager/Monk/Dad builds. But don't make it a cornerstone of your build without consulting your GM first.

The Bloodrager is far more straightforward than the B1/S4/DD4/X guy but definitely has far weaker casting, especially in spells-per-day. The Arcane Bloodrager Bloodline has truly awesome self-buffing potential that makes routine self-buffing not an issue, but overall casting is still very weak. For the character going B1/S4/DD4, Eldritch Knight can be used to continue into high levels with full BAB and bonus feats and such since the best basic melee stuff from Dragon Disciple is gotten by 4.

There are two Crossblooded tricks that allow a Dragon Disciple to exploit casting much more than might be expected for a character whose casting stat is lower:

1. Crossblooded Draconic(Cold)/Elemental(Cold) lets you convert any elemental spell into a cold spell (bonus damage from Draconic), and you can then apply the Rime metamagic feat to those spells for a no-save entangled condition (which drops enemy attack and defense).

With a trait that reduces metamagic level by 1 Rime is free, so you can use either Scorching Ray (now Rime Ray) or Fiery Shuriken (now Rime Shuriken) to hammer targets with a solid damage, no-save, entangling spell to open a battle instead of charging.

Rime Shuriken also gives you a very interesting combo with the Opening Volley feat, where you enter battle with some shuriken hovering around you and fling them at enemies with swift actions in between your attacks, repeatedly entangling them and triggering Opening Volley.

2. Crossblooded Draconic(Fire)/Fey means that all of your compulsion spells get a +2DC bonus - and some of the nastiest spells like Hideous Laughter and Confusion are compulsion. So even though you have a lower charisma score, you still have a few very viable control spells. Your fire spells like Scorching Ray and Fireball gain the Draconic bonus as well, so that in total you have a selection of blasting and controlling spells that work well even though you're a melee character. You can also ignore claws and grab Laughing Touch if you like, which is a really powerful shut-down.