Looking over this ability it seems like the intended rule is that you can add more qualitative abilities and the RAW limits you to quantitative ones.
I draw this conclusion for a few reasons.
1. You apparently can not do anytbing to improve your item other than the upgradeable ability once it is legendary.
2. Upgradable itself woulf become a dead ability very quickly if the RAW is correct.
3. If you look at the dagger and the armor pictures in this section they definitely appear to gain abilities other than simple +# bonuses. The dagger looks to be dripping acid and the armor appears to have wings (I am interested in how these wings are added as well).
4. This is a more abstract theory but here goes. This game obviously rewards offense much more than defense. Though if you could add more qualitative abilities, then with the current options that do not count as a bonus, armor would be much more appraling.
So, question is, how are people treating this ability and do we know if there will be an official errata?
Any comment from the staff would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
I started this thread some time ago in the rules forum and it got little attention. I am curious if anyone here would be more interested in it.
Does no one care about this one? Or does everyone think it is fine as written?
I'm actually not 100% sure what the issue is. Perhaps you could explain it differently so I can make an assessment of what you mean?
As I understood it, the upgradeable ability just let a person upgrade the item with abilities for less money/time and no crafting feats.
Ok, to be more clear.
When I first read the ability I thought it worked that way too. But upon a more detailed reading and a few board searches, it seems to only allow the player to add numerical bonuses to the item. A +1 to a +2, up to 5 and that is it. No keen, or fortification. No specific item abilities like haste and so on.
This makes it a dead ability very quickly. My thinking is that this ability should allow you to upgrade the as if it was done with the with the appropriate craft feat. With the added benefit of it only taking 8 hours and the gold. From there maybe add a maximum value or something.
Thoughts?
OK, let's look at the ability itself:
Upgradable: This ability grants the bonded creature the ability to more easily increase the non-mythic magical power of the legendary item. If the base magic item has a version with a higher bonus or greater version (such as a +1longsword, a +2 light steel shield, a cloak of protection +3, an amulet of might fists +4, or a minor ring of inner fortitude), the bonded creature can improve it by performing a special ritual. She must spend a number of gold pieces equal to half the difference between the cost of the legendary item's current, non-mythic base item and the greater version she wishes to upgrade the item into. For example, she would pay 3,000 gp to upgrade a +1 longsword into a +2 longsword. This ritual takes 8 hours. When it's completed, the bonded creature transmutes the item's base version into the desired version. When upgraded in this fashion, the legendary item retains all legendary item abilities it had before the transmutation.
Emphasis mine.
In my opinion, a +1 Keen Longsword is a "greater version" of a +1 Longsword. A +2 Longsword is also a "greater version" of a +1 Longsword; it also has a "higher bonus". I thing each one is as valid an "upgrade" as the other. The base item is a +1 Longsword. Any ability you add to it makes it a "greater version".
Then again I suppose it could also be read that a "Greater Version" mean a Minor to a Major item, like the example given of Minor Ring of Inner Fortitude being upgraded to a Ring of Inner Fortitude.
Without dev commentary I don't think we will ever know for sure which they intended.
I don't see anything saying you can't add +X abilities. Keen is +1 so you just upgrade it to have that same as you would +1 enhancement. They are +1 or great upgrades and you pay the difference at half cost with 8 hour ritual.
Now I'm not sure about adding additional abilities to say a ring for example making it fire resistance minor and regeneration. I'd rule it that you could as a GM since some items don't have progression like minor to major. It would cost a lot though 50% more for the additional power assuming added an expensive ability.
I agree with you guys. That is the intent of the ability I just wish it was spelled out a little better.
I just figure we need to mention it if we hope to get an FAQ or errata.
Even if we could just get a dev to comment would be good enough for me.
Thank you guys for adding your thoughts.
Anyone else care to comment on this? I would like to see the opinions of everyone who cares about legendary items. I thought they would be a pretty popular mythic choice and that upgradeable would be as well.
Nope. It seemed too cheesy for the campaign I wished to run so I encouraged my PCs not to take the feat.
But in answer to your questions, I assumed that it would let you add abilities to items and not just pluses.
Nope. It seemed too cheesy for the campaign I wished to run so I encouraged my PCs not to take the feat.
But in answer to your questions, I assumed that it would let you add abilities to items and not just pluses.
this is also what i thought, i'll have to take a better look.
Im interested as to the thoughts on why it is cheesy? I think it is very thematic.
Many legendary heroes had legendary items.
Arther and Excalibur.
Thor and Mjolnir (probably butchered that spelling).
Hell, even captain america and his shield.
I am sure there are many others.
Honestly, if it works the way most of us think it does then I will probably take it for my character. I am leaning towards armor but the idea of a paladin with a legendary sword that people recognize when they see him is also very cool!
Because it is too cheap and too easy to improve the item in question. Because this AP is too enemy specific. Every weapon would end up being the same. I am answering the question from a rules perspective, not thematically... yes, every hero could have an item that they are identifiable by.
For a different campaign I could see it, where I could arrange to have each PC have a legendary item that grew with them.
I am not judging your opinion only explaining why I like it.
No problem, I was just explaining my thoughts.
I would like it and want it as a player too.
Because it is too cheap and too easy to improve the item in question. Because this AP is too enemy specific. Every weapon would end up being the same. I am answering the question from a rules perspective, not thematically... yes, every hero could have an item that they are identifiable by.
For a different campaign I could see it, where I could arrange to have each PC have a legendary item that grew with them.
I thought it seemed too easy and cheap at first but then I considered that you only 3 abilities and while this one is useful it's kind of waste of an ability. I'd rather just use the craft magic item feat to enhance it. The cost is the same it just take longer. So a one time cost of time to enhance and I can pick different legendary ability that is useable all the time just seems like better use. Now sure I could use another mythic feat to 6 or 10 abilities but I just found too many other uses for my mythic feats.
I agree, it's really cool but the investment in it seems reasonable if that is something your character wants.
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Many people think that crafting is too easy. There is so much treasure in this campaign that the gold isn't the limiting resource, time is. So I consider having a axiomatic, holy, evil outsider bane weapon at level 9 to be more than I would like to see.
And it gets two, possibly better, abilities on top of that. Cool stuff.
I agree, the powers definitely favor weapons.
I am inquiring about the upgradeable ability because if it works how we are interpreting it, then you would get a lot more distance out of that ability. With all of the armor additions that do not count as bonuses you could make one amazing suit of armor.
Many people think that crafting is too easy. There is so much treasure in this campaign that the gold isn't the limiting resource, time is. So I consider having a axiomatic, holy, evil outsider bane weapon at level 9 to be more than I would like to see.
And it gets two, possibly better, abilities on top of that. Cool stuff.
In our play through money was fairly tight before book 4. None of our 9th level characters could really afford 36k for a single item. On the other hand, crafting time was of very little concern, especially in book 3.
A Mythic Crafter crafts 4k worth per day. He even crafts 1k per day while exploring. With the rebuilding of Drezen and the hexploration that dominates a large portion of book 3, we had plenty of time to craft. Hell to make that effective +6 weapon (+1 axiomatic, holy, evil outsider bane) it would only take 18 days total. And that's if it was done from scratch. Most likely it was already a +2 or +3 weapon from being upgraded. So it would only take a 2 weeks out of the months of downtime.
I think upgradeable is a nice power, but in the face of things like Mythic Crafting and the other Mythic abilities, I don't think it is anywhere near broken.
Many people think that crafting is too easy. There is so much treasure in this campaign that the gold isn't the limiting resource, time is. So I consider having a axiomatic, holy, evil outsider bane weapon at level 9 to be more than I would like to see.
And it gets two, possibly better, abilities on top of that. Cool stuff.
In our play through money was fairly tight before book 4. None of our 9th level characters could really afford 36k for a single item. On the other hand, crafting time was of very little concern, especially in book 3.
A Mythic Crafter crafts 4k worth per day. He even crafts 1k per day while exploring. With the rebuilding of Drezen and the hexploration that dominates a large portion of book 3, we had plenty of time to craft. Hell to make that effective +6 weapon (+1 axiomatic, holy, evil outsider bane) it would only take 18 days total. And that's if it was done from scratch. Most likely it was already a +2 or +3 weapon from being upgraded. So it would only take a 2 weeks out of the months of downtime.
I think upgradeable is a nice power, but in the face of things like Mythic Crafting and the other Mythic abilities, I don't think it is anywhere near broken.
But how do you think it is supposed to function? Only adding +'s? Or can you add any ability to the item that you could through crafting?
All the magic a weapon or armor can have are +x. So it seems to me that's pretty clear. It doesn't say anything about it only being an enhancement bonus.
The only question I think that remains is if you legendary item is not weapon or armor. Does it only allow you to upgrade for item that has various levels of power. Such as the example given with minor to greater levels.
We ruled that the "Upgradeable" special ability lets you upgrade the item in every way that you would be allowed to upgrade the item via normal crafting rules. The only thing we didn't permit was the adding of additional enhancements for 150% cost (eg adding feather step enhancement to boots of striding and springing)- but that didn't ever come up in the first place.
Now, adding of non-enhancement equivalent bonuses (such as adding the Adaptive bonus to a bow) may not be explicitly spelled out, but I personally think it is covered as still being a "greater version."
Sure, this may lead a person to making a really tricked out weapon or armor with a bunch of bonuses- but isn't that the point? A Legendary Weapon in a Mythic game should be pretty ridiculous. And I still maintain that a Mythic Crafter could be making ridiculous items like that anyways. So it seems legit to me.
I agree, this seems like how it should work to me.
For example I'd like to make some celestial plate with determination, righteous, ghost touch, haste, etc.
Its not really 36k for an item, as like crafting you get 50%. At the end of book two I think my PCs had 25-30k each to spend on items. At the end of book 3 it was 40-45k.
It seems pretty broken to me(mostly again because you know what you're fighting in this AP)...but I also don't like mythic rules, so I will admit to my views being tainted.
Its not really 36k for an item, as like crafting you get 50%. At the end of book two I think my PCs had 25-30k each to spend on items. At the end of book 3 it was 40-45k.
It seems pretty broken to me(mostly again because you know what you're fighting in this AP)...but I also don't like mythic rules, so I will admit to my views being tainted.
36k is the 50% craft price of that +6 weapon you said a 9th level character can get. It seems to me that you think this is broken because no one in your game crafted at 4x speed as a Mythic Crafter. In the face of that, Legendary Weapon being upgradeable is only a useful boon in most campaigns and only strong in campaigns without a crafter or with absolutely zero downtime- but still hardly broken.
Ooops, true. I looked at the wrong chart. And there is a mythic crafter in my group, which is why I said that time is the limiting factor and not gold.
Shrug....you're right it isn't the worst feat, just one that I don't like for this campaign.
Here's a question. Do the requirement still apply for upgrading you weapon. Normally that you CL need to 3 times the enhancement and special abilities have CL plus spells requirement and sometimes even feat requirements. I see no mention of following the craft magic item rules.
In my game I'm apply the Craft Magic Item rules and upgradable just means you don't need the Craft Magic Item feat and it only takes 8 hours. All the other requirements need to be met though.
I doubt that they apply, otherwise it would be a practically worthless ability for non casters.
I would apply it as your Character Level as your caster level.
I don't think any requirements should need to be met. Non caster's should have the same access to these items as any other.
Well, on the boards this is the most comprehensive thread about this topic. It seems like of those who commented here the consensus is the same. Thank you all.
I'm playing a Hexcrafter/WHW and I'll be taking upgradable on my headband! 72k for a 144k item sounds like a bargain to me, obviously I don't use a weapon although I was very tempted to use my Amulet of Mighty Fists at first.
I'm using the spell-casting ability (note - you cast the spells which isn't the way intelligent items normally work) to gain access to stuff not on my spell list that will benefit from a higher caster level like Resist Energy and Barkskin.
