If a creature has a natural ray attack (e.g. Lantern Archon), can the Heart of the metal spell be used to enhance that ray attack?
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The lantern archon's ray attack is not considered to be a "natural attack" like claw/claw/bite as far as I'm aware. It's a ray -- which is considered a weapon for things like feats, etc -- the question is whether it is considered a weapon for spells.
The spell could also potentially affect kineticist blasts, etc. So clarification on this would be helpful.
Ah, it appears there is a FAQ for this very thing:
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
This is perfect.
Actually no, it doesn't help you.
PFS Legal Heart of the Metal
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 183 (Amazon)
School transmutation [earth]; Level arcanist 3, magus 3, occultist 3, red mantis assassin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a chunk of adamantine worth 100 gp, or a chunk of cold iron or silver worth 20 gp)
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one weapon per level
Duration 1 minute/level (see text)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You lend the nature of adamantine, cold iron, or silver, depending on which component you used, to the targeted weapons, with the following effects:Adamantine: The weapons overcome DR/adamantine and ignore hardness less than 20.
Cold Iron: The weapons overcome DR/cold iron.
Silver: The weapons overcome DR/silver.No other advantages or disadvantages of these metal types apply. For example, a weapon given the nature of adamantine is not automatically masterwork.
This is able to affect nonmetal weapons. If you grant the target weapons the property of cold iron, the spell lasts half as long as normal.
The Bardic inspirations do not directly target the weapons, or in fact, anything, they are morale bonuses to all allies within the area.
This spell is specifically targeted on a weapon, which, in the case of the ray, does not exist before it is cast. Now, you could cast it on a persistent weapon/spell effect, like a flame blade.
This spell is specifically targeted on a weapon, which, in the case of the ray, does not exist before it is cast.
I would counter by saying that the existence of the ray ability constitutes existence of the ray as a weapon. It just isn't in use at the time.
Now, if you had a spell that gave you a ray like effect, you could not cast this prior to the spell that creates the ray effect. However, once the ray spell effect is in place (even if it is not being used immediately) would allow for the Heart of Metal spell to modify it's effect.
However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The FAQ specifically points out that any "source" of ray is affected, and enumerated among those ray effects are monster abilities. If your interpretation is correct, no monster ability from a ray would be possible to be modified, as according to you, the ray doesn't exist prior or after it's use.
I believe it is incorrect to take a single example, parse that example for it's limitation and take that as a modification of the general rule being stated in the FAQ.
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In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).
When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note: Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).
In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.
Looking at your FAQ:
When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack.
The question comes down to interpretation on whether changing the "nature" of the ray is considered to be an "affect that modifies damage rolls" -- and I believe it certainly does -- under certain circumstances -- changing it to adamantine or cold iron and thus bypassing certain types of DR or hardness as the case may be.
Adamantine affects damage rolls against objects because of it's ability to ignore a certain amount of hardness, it also bypasses DR, affecting the overall damage applied to the target.
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This is seeming less of a question than a self-justification.
Sorry, but I'm out now.
Be well.
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Looking at your FAQ:
When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack.
The question comes down to interpretation on whether changing the "nature" of the ray is considered to be an "affect that modifies damage rolls" -- and I believe it certainly does -- under certain circumstances -- changing it to adamantine or cold iron and thus bypassing certain types of DR or hardness as the case may be.
Adamantine affects damage rolls against objects because of it's ability to ignore a certain amount of hardness, it also bypasses DR, affecting the overall damage applied to the target.
Seriously? The parts that I bolded didn't register at all?
Seriously? The parts that I bolded didn't register at all?
Well, no. Look at the question your faq references:
Weapon Attacks and Special Abilities: Many places in the rules use the term “ranged weapon attacks” and similar terms, but how does this apply to spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities) that require ranged attacks but might not necessarily seem like weapons?
Rays don't fall into the ambiguous category of "might not necessarily seem like weapons that require a ranged attack roll" -- they are ranged weapons. Your faq uses a spell effect that creates a psuedo-weapon in it's example. The example given in your FAQ is not analogous to the question I am posing.
The only text that would seemingly apply would be:
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
Which says special abilities don't work with abilities that require other properties of weapons that aren't a property of a ray (like weapon group).
Nothing in the Heart of Metal spell spells out that it requires any of these weapon properties.
IMO, this FAQ doesn't apply to rays at all.
The FAQ I quoted earlier is much more clear and concise:
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes.
Does this spell affect weapons -- Yes. Do rays count as weapons for purpose of spells that affect weapons -- Yes.
Ergo, this spell affects rays.
No ambiguity at all.
The question isn't if rays are affected by spells but if a spell that "Targets" weapons would work. The issue is that your ray nebulously exist until you cast it, and then it's gone. I guess if you could somehow cast the spell as an immediate action then that ray would be effected but after that ray was fired it would be gone and no effect on the next ray.
You can't target yourself with this spell because your not a weapon. Now if the spell did target you and gave a bonus to to your weapon attacks then you would be in the clear.
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Bolding mine
The question isn't if rays are affected by spells but if a spell that "Targets" weapons would work. The issue is that your ray nebulously exist until you cast it, and then it's gone. I guess if you could somehow cast the spell as an immediate action then that ray would be effected but after that ray was fired it would be gone and no effect on the next ray.
You can't target yourself with this spell because your not a weapon. Now if the spell did target you and gave a bonus to to your weapon attacks then you would be in the clear.
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Bolding mine
Yep, wholly agree. Neither FAQ posted so far clears up this particular question.
I was thinking improved unarmed strike would be analogous to a ray (basically allows you to use your hands as weapons -- but it has a specific call out on the spells and abilities that can affect it). Still pondering if we can find something like a "does not exist until it is used" type of ability that clears it up.
I created a new thread here
Please click FAQ so it can get answered.