OSR Greyhawk Adventures -- Dungeon Mag. and others (PF1e w/ Houserules)

Game Master Sebecloki

Sebecloki wrote:

Vhinservun Tekra wrote:

For the enemies we're fighting, what's the light level where they are? If they're hiding under the trees and behind cover is it dim light?

Yeah, let's say it's dim light.

In that case Vhinservun is going to try to get fancy and first daze and then teleport the leader so that it's adjacent to Kolvar and Krauz on her next turn. The leader will get a couple of saves that would interrupt the turn while waiting to see if she makes them. Do you want me to roll for her when I get to that spot in the turn or do you want to roll them (and then I'll make contingent rolls for if she fails them along the way)?

you can roll

Sebecloki wrote:

So... this encounter clearly wasn't strong enough -- I tried 1-2 CR over your levels, but I'm going to have to try like 16 next time and look at the to hit values more closely.

Yeah, level 4 unoptimised mooks are doing to die easily and die badly. Even with good teamwork feats (e.g. volley fire) they'd struggle to hurt us. It'd take us a long time to cut through 37 enemies without Kazu but I think we could do so without risk.

yeah, as I said, threat level going way up for the next encounter

If I kill the guy I'm fighting, I might be able to shaken her too which could help some. I already did the calculations and with my obscene intimidation, I'll likely be able to demoralize the normal guys for quite awhile. It is just a -2 to everything but hey, numbers are numbers.

That would be convenient. You should do that!

I am way underpowered and under optimized in this group lol

Soto, with all these house rules, it's easy to end up with divergent power levels. I'm new here but I want everyone to have fun (which might or might not be the same as being similarly optimized). Given the state of the group, is there something you want Soto to be able to do more of? It's possible we can provide ideas (or alternately, Seb can just arbitrarily rule to grant something that makes the footing more even).

Sebecloki, one question for now:

I'm looking for a way to take Druidic Herbalism (which is a Nature's Bond variant for Druids, that makes them hands-down the best potion makers...and I want Clara to be a great potion maker). One thought: take VMC druid, which grants an animal companion at character level – 4. Could I use Druid VMC and then sub Herbalism for the companion, like a Druid could? (Or is there another way to get it that you'd recommend?)

Soto, with all these house rules, it's easy to end up with divergent power levels. I'm new here but I want everyone to have fun (which might or might not be the same as being similarly optimized). Given the state of the group, is there something you want Soto to be able to do more of? It's possible we can provide ideas (or alternately, Seb can just arbitrarily rule to grant something that makes the footing more even).

Sebecloki, one question for now:

I'm looking for a way to take Druidic Herbalism (which is a Nature's Bond variant for Druids, that makes them hands-down the best potion makers...and I want Clara to be a great potion maker). One thought: take VMC druid, which grants an animal companion at character level – 4. Could I use Druid VMC and then sub Herbalism for the companion, like a Druid could? (Or is there another way to get it that you'd recommend?)

sure

The good news is that Soto is going to be great at removing any conditions we happen to get on any of our characters which might be a big deal as we play. I also expect Sebecloki to kill us all regardless of how well optimized we are right now, so that'll be fun!

@Sebecloki, I think that the three at the bottom of the turn order have all taken their turns now. Shall we move on to Kolvar, Krauz and Kazu?

*edit* I guess there's the save for the tanglefoot bag to resolve first, so perhaps I should just be patient a bit longer.

Thanks Seb!

Followup on the Druidic Herbalism. It says I "can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier" that effectively become permanent potions. Do you have an opinion as to how many I've been able to craft as a reserve, coming in?

Related, I'd like to have additional formula in my formula book (which I might've gotten by sharing notes with wizards &etc as I leveled up). How do you want to do that? Shall I assume that I have to pay for each formula known beyond the free 1/level? Or do you play that I have learned some for free along the way?

Thanks Seb!

Followup on the Druidic Herbalism. It says I "can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier" that effectively become permanent potions. Do you have an opinion as to how many I've been able to craft as a reserve, coming in?

Related, I'd like to have additional formula in my formula book (which I might've gotten by sharing notes with wizards &etc as I leveled up). How do you want to do that? Shall I assume that I have to pay for each formula known beyond the free 1/level? Or do you play that I have learned some for free along the way?

Just make a reasonable estimate for your level of character

The good news is that Soto is going to be great at removing any conditions we happen to get on any of our characters which might be a big deal as we play. I also expect Sebecloki to kill us all regardless of how well optimized we are right now, so that'll be fun!

@Sebecloki, I think that the three at the bottom of the turn order have all taken their turns now. Shall we move on to Kolvar, Krauz and Kazu?

*edit* I guess there's the save for the tanglefoot bag to resolve first, so perhaps I should just be patient a bit longer.

You can go now, let's keep it moving.

Thanks Seb! I'm progressing on my character.

Meanwhile, I'm having fun reading the rest of the party's sheets. Props to all, and especially to Zorblag for making complex characters really easy to understand (and to see how you got what you did). I'll try to incorporate at least some of that into my sheet (while, hopefully, also getting it done before toooooo long).

I'm open to rejigging stuff if people want to rebuild -- I didn't set any bench pressing bench marks (AC, BAB+, Saves, average damage output, DC spells, etc.), and we may need to look at that.

I've also decided when we roll up new characters (I'm still intending to kill some :), give me time :)) that magical characters will, instead of the spheres of might and path of war archetypes, instead get either spheres of power and an akashic archetype.

Thanks Seb! I'm progressing on my character.

Meanwhile, I'm having fun reading the rest of the party's sheets. Props to all, and especially to Zorblag for making complex characters really easy to understand (and to see how you got what you did). I'll try to incorporate at least some of that into my sheet (while, hopefully, also getting it done before toooooo long).

We're still finishing up this combat, so you have a couple of days. I don't know if you read the prompt/recruitment closely, but the tone of this game is slightly irreverent/silly Knights of the Dinnertable-esque OSR, so you don't need to overthink your character introduction. I'm not going to discourage RPing, and I hope we add some nice touches, and I'm trying to do a little world building as we go, but mainly this game is going to be a fairly light hearted kick tails and take names kind of affair.

I'm definitely up to using bench marks to soft cap AC, Saves, +to hit, damage output and what not (though Kazu is still done after this fight.) If you wanted to say that we can't exceed the blue numbers in This spreadsheet regardless of what the build (either at Level 8 or a level or two higher if you wanted as you're planning on throwing higher CR stuff at us,) that strikes me as entirely reasonable and a way to level out some play. The hardest of those is the EDV (Expected Damage Value) which we might not want to use anyhow as hp are buffed a fair amount under the hp system you're using.

Or if you've got something else in mind I'm happy to use that as well!

Instead of using those exact values, I'd rather just have everyone summarize the stats I asked for : AC, BAB+, damage output, Saves, and DCs for spells, and I'll see how they match up and where we may need to do some rejigging (I might, for example, have everyone at one level 10 value for AC but something lower for another stat).

With regular buffs Vhinservun would be about the following:

AC/T/FF: 36/28/26
BAB+: +21
Fort: +15
Ref: +16
Will: +16
DC: +20/21
Damage Output: 1d8 + 7 +2d6 (15-18/x2) with first attack (making more attacks will lower BAB+)

With buffs going into a tough fight (so ones that last around an hour) those change to

AC/T/FF: 39/28/29
BAB+: +23
Fort: +17
Ref: +18
Will: +18
DC: +20/21
Damage Output: 1d8 + 7 +2d6 (15-18/x2) with first attack (making more attacks will lower BAB+)

Inspire Courage will help buff everyone, so I'm not including that (but it'd be a +2 to hit and damage) and clearly deadly aim/point blank shot/barrage will alter the numbers some on a regular basis.

Thank you Zorblag for the help! I realize that I was just never adding my power attack penalty and damage to Krauz's rolls. Starting next round, he should be hitting much harder with that +9.

With normal buffs that he'll be casting and in a bloodrage; Krauz will have the following...

AC: 27 TAC: 14 FF: 23
Hitpoints: 139 Temporary HP: 16
BAB: +18/+13
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +9
Spell Save: 10 + Spell Level + 6 (17/18)
Initiator Save: +6 to Maneuver DC
Damage Output: 3d6+24/15-20/x2

If Krauz is fully buffed up, it changes as follows...

AC: 26 TAC: 14 FF: 23
Hitpoints: 139 Temporary HP: 16
BAB: +19/+19/+14
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +9
Spell Save: 10 + Spell Level + 6 (17/18)
Initiator Save: +6 to Maneuver DC
Damage Output: 4d6+25/15-20/x2

A big thing to keep in mind is the synergy between ablative barrier, fast healing 2, and my steel braggart ability. If I have all of them going at once, the math plays out as follows...

I get hit by a 50 points of damage ability. Immediately, five of it becomes non-lethal damage. Steel braggart adds 4 to my DR, giving me a DR of 5. That lowers damage down to 40 lethal damage. If I have my 16 temporary HP, that cuts it down to 24 points of damage. An enemy misses an attack on me, I use Derision and make a free Intimidate check. My turn comes, I heal 2 points of damage and instantly recover any non-lethal damage due to it. If I am fortunate to get a critical or take an enemy down to zero, I can boast, refresh my braggart, and regain martial focus which refreshes the 16 temporary Hit Points from Unbreachable Heroism.

Krauz isn't a one-man army and definitely still needs a party to do the best he can. He can run out of actions which can slow down the chain of things happening altogether. I'm mostly limited by swift/immediate actions and have to make sure I use them properly so I have my buffs/debuffs ready. Since I can shaken a lot of things (and have the ability to remove immunity to fear), that means I'll often have a chance to roll twice for the first attack against an enemy which gives my 1/4 chance to crit a better chance to do so. Krauz with support from teammates is where he enters the stupid range of power.

He isn't too OP and he won't ever be able to create the sheer amount of bloodshed that Kazu is capable of dealing out right now. I just saw the story in my head for a character and decided to make it. With spell eater and Animus Healing, he does have some ways to heal himself after a bad hit but it slows down his DPS and the resources are limited for sure.

Vhinservun, if you don't mind, what are the default buffs that get your AC from 25 (listed on your sheet) to 36? (I ask out of curiosity, I always like a chance to improve my system mastery...and if some of use have ACs in the mid-30s, I might need to look to see if I can get mine within that ballpark too!) ;-)

Elemental Flux Stance (with the Air Element) gives +4 Dodge to AC, the Protection Sphere (from Spheres of Power) is giving a +3 deflection bonus, and the Enhancement Sphere is giving a +4 enhancement to my buckler. The Elemental Flux Stance lasts all day unless I change elements or stance (which I'll probably do occasionally, but that's the default as it's also +4 to initiative and +2d6 electric damage to my attacks,) and the other two are 8 or 10 hours for one SP. The other three (to Natural Armor) when I'm really buffing comes from Barkskin, but it's only an 80 minute duration so I won't usually use it.

Stats considering how many buffs and debuffs may fly around in this group is a really hard question. I'm listing my current AC on each post for good reason. Brando is likely to be a source of debuffs on the enemy as I'm demonstrating here. Here's some for Brando - but note that most of these actual numbers have never applied in this combat for one reason or another. I haven't had a move action free to draw my sword...

AC assuming combat expertise for Brando and mounted combat for Daisy, 30 and ~28. FF 21/22 (no cbt ex or MC), Touch 26/~28. Brando can parry like a swashbuckler but usually won't since it uses martial focus, he needs a swift action to recover martial focus and he has too many uses for his actions already.

Attack +12 (assuming PA) & +10 - usually against FF due to feint.

Saves assuming combat expertise (which benefits Brando's saves) but not the other situational bonuses F +14/+7, R +17/+8, W +8/+5

Damage 2d6+13+2d6 Brando/1d6+7+1d4 bleed Daisy, usually only with one attack for each. Charging brings spirited charge and maneuvers into play and makes the damage 4d6+46 Brando, 1d6+19 Daisy. Crit of 12-20/x2 (as long as combat stamina holds out) and 20/x2 respectively.

There are a couple of changes I'll want to make after this battle (one where I missed a bit on the archetype, one other) but I'll bring that up then.

Vhinservun, thanks for breaking it down!

While I try to narrow things down, I expect to take a few SoP talents that I can make into extracts (or the SoM equivalent). Anything you'd especially like, or think the party might need?

Potions of Alteration? Divination (Sense)? Enhancement? Fate? Illusion? Protection? Time? (Alternately, any kinds that you think wouldn't be helpful buffs?)

One ability I think we could benefit from as a group would likely be some version of speak with the dead (given Krauz's Oath against Mercy we're not going to be able to ask survivors of battles questions very often.) I haven't done an exhaustive search of SoP, but I do know gravetongue from the Death Sphere doesn't do it (it just lets you learn what the corpse knows after it died.) Vhinservun can cast it via scroll (and once per day she could not use the scroll, but rather a third level spell slot, though there's likely to be competition for that ability from other scrolls.)

But that's not really something that would work as an extract anyhow as the target is a corpse rather than a player. I assume you're looking at the instill talents from Spheres of power; that's the mechanism that I'm aware of that really lets you use SoP as potion-like stuff. The Alteration sphere has a bunch of potentially interesting stuff (which has the benefit of combining a number of effects into one instillation.) Fate motifs are nice in that they do a number of potentially interesting things and have a duration of an hour per caster level. I don't have any particular recommendations beyond that though, whatever seems fun to play around with is probably worth it!

I need a way to move faster on the battlefield for sure. I think I need to rethink this whole character a bit if I am going to keep up with the jump in difficulty. Terrain is giving me a heck of a problem and tactically I am no help at all in a fight so I need a different way to get to what I am doing and a much faster way to move and a way to seriously contribute.

Thanks! Yes, I mean the spheres that can Instill. I just searched the archive on the Drop Dead Studios / Spheres Discord, and came across Summon Spirit. Downside: it takes an hour and costs THREE spell points, every time it's cast.

Better might actually be for me to take Elixir of Life (formulae) and use it to bring recently killed foes back to life at 1 HP.

Krauz, how do you interpret your Oath? Can you wait to kill until after questioning? If I bring someone back to life, are you required to kill them again?

Soto, there are definitely ways to help your mobility. Alteration (which is the shapeshifting sphere) has a bunch, including making you a faster runner, or giving you wings.

If you're looking at tweaking your build, you can also look at the Athletics sphere (martial) or the Alteration or Telekinesis spheres (for magical flight)...but I'd be happy to give you potions fizzy lifting drinks that help you get where you need to be. :)

Krauz, how do you interpret your Oath? Can you wait to kill until after questioning? If I bring someone back to life, are you required to kill them again?

That...is an interesting question. If you can convince someone to give up the goods before being killed, all is good. As for bringing them back to life? Maybe death wipes the debt clean?

What do you think @Sebeclocki? I don't want to cheese my oaths at all.

Only partly kidding followup / alternative:

If I bring folks back to life, maybe (given that Krauz gets +1 to Sense Motive, and Vhinse has +21 to bluff) V can just persuade K that they're still dead, and that this is just Speaking to the Dead.

(Note, the whole "bring back" thing depends on someone having died within the last round. Maybe 2 or 3 at most. After that, dead=dead.)

Eh...potentially? Krauz does understand magic and spellcraft and Speak with Dead (the spell at least) isn't that hard to understand. I am playing it that Krauz only has to slay those who directly challenge him; if you guys cast sleep on an enemy or took them out before they threatened Krauz then he wouldn't need to kill them. That and it may depend on how "well" the dead person acts against Krauz's sharp perception.

In more "stand up and fight" scenarios, Krauz will generally use his big intimidate to try and convince the weak to surrender. He is looking for the strong, not the weak.

Are we on Round 3 now?

I think that it's the archer's turn now. There are 19 left at this point, and the leader is down. I also think that we could finish up this fight or not, it's up to you. We've probably learned what needed to be learned from it? I'm good either way.

For what it matters (to Krauz in particular,) Kazu also has an Oath against Mercy and I think that the archers took all their shots at him. His plan is definitely to track them down and put an end to them off camera at this point. The fact that they were aiming at Kazu (as far as I can tell,) should make it easier for Krauz to go along with heading off with the rest of the group perhaps?

I am cool with them breaking down and running. I am certain Krauz gets a few of them but more escape that he can't kill himself.

Just as a heads up, I'll be taking my daughters camping this next week so I probably won't be able to post Monday through Friday. If we get into combat while I'm doing that you can have Vhinservun use Inspire Courage for +2 competence to hit and damage for the group for the rounds I'm gone (but hopefully it wouldn't be too many rounds missed.)

From above - the spheres archetype I'm using (Nature's Blade) gives as an option to take the beastmastery sphere and one talent from it in place of hunter's bond which I missed. Basically this saves a feat and 8 skill points.

Also Vhinservun's build makes it clear that magic from Spheres of Power is a cut above standard PF in terms of combat numbers. I think I need to do the same to bring my own up a little.

Alrighty, I did some tweaking and some changing on dear Krauz. I embraced the defense bonus and went with a buckler for now, dropped some gladiator talents and grabbed equipment and shield talents instead. I also changed up my maneuvers when I realized I did them wrong and took Muscular Reflexes so I can do (hopefully) a lot of AoO with my fear effect and use my shield to boost my AC when needed.

Meanwhile, I'm continuing along on Clara. I realized today i need to let go of consistent formatting for now, and just make my last few decisions and get it all into a sheet.

...and now I think her sheet is done!

With a character this complex, I suspect I've got some errors in there somewhere, and I can look for them tomorrow...but for now I think I'm ready to come in wherever fits.

Seb, I'm happy to be at the tavern, if you'd like. In general, her overarching goal is to look for clues as to possible missing elements in the Lost Formula for the Ultimate Fizzy Drink. I can just say she's planning to head to the fort following a lead about a rare lichen found nearby, unless you have another reason for her to tag along.

...and now I think her sheet is done!

With a character this complex, I suspect I've got some errors in there somewhere, and I can look for them tomorrow...but for now I think I'm ready to come in wherever fits.

Seb, I'm happy to be at the tavern, if you'd like. In general, her overarching goal is to look for clues as to possible missing elements in the Lost Formula for the Ultimate Fizzy Drink. I can just say she's planning to head to the fort following a lead about a rare lichen found nearby, unless you have another reason for her to tag along.

sounds good, go ahead and post in the gameplay thread and introduce yourself

BTW, the loot from the bandit fight includes at least a dozen of these:

+1 seeking arrows (2), sleep arrows (4), elixir of hiding, potion of cat’s grace, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of pass without trace, acid (2); leather armor, masterwork composite longbow (+1 Str) with 20 arrows, masterwork handaxe, 3 gp

plus the bandit lords

potion of disguise self; +1 chain shirt, +1 buckler, +1 frost keen rapier, masterwork composite longbow (+2 Str) with 20 arrows, sap, belt of incredible dexterity +2, boots of striding and springing, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, thieves' tools

Anyone want any of these or should we mark them all for sale? Besides the leather armor which isn't worth carrying of course. It's possible the elixirs of hiding were used to set up the ambush and aren't actually there to be looted either.

If there is nothing people want, I could use both the belt of dexterity and the ring of protection.

There's nothing I desperately need from this batch of treasure, though holding onto the potions of pass without trace might come in handy for the future, and anyone who uses arrows regularly should probably grab those seeking arrows or sleep arrows just to have them.

Medium longbow arrows are two different kinds of not useful to me. If there's agreement on everyone keeping a potion of pass without trace (including one for my dog and one for Clara; one person not passing without trace spoils it for everyone) and Krauz taking the belt and ring, I've noted down the rest here for use when we get somewhere we can trade such things. I've taken a couple potions of cat's grace too.

Sebecloki, I've assumed a dozen bandits we took all the gear from and that the rest dropped their bows to avoid being taken as a threat (you posted something like that), and that the elixirs of hiding were used to set up the ambush. I'm pretty sure my haversack and our bloodrager can carry all this.

Sounds good

Kolvar actually isn't going to be able to use the potion of pass without trace due to his Oath of Abstention, but there still might be times when having everyone else not leave tracks might be handy (or if there's scouting that doesn't involve him.)

I am back from camping! I've requested permission to edit the map to get us on there. I see that since I created Vhinservun they've changed how alteration works in Spheres of Power so I'll need to slightly tweak her talents shortly, but with Clarabibulus's potions it won't matter just now.

@Krauz, how are you starting the fight in a style? Stances you get to use out of combat, but it's usually a swift action to enter a style barring something like Combat Style Master to start in them.

Then I'm not in a style yet, which is fine. I'll enter it next round :)

Sounds good! Just making sure I wasn't missing something!

I've changed up the talents to match the new alteration sphere changes and now I can throw a dagger at an enemy and try to turn them into a fish, not because it's particularly effective, but because it's fun.

May all your pokings be fishy ones!

Seb, thanks for making the map editable. I added tokens for everyboy and put them on the map.

Seb, do you want to move them to where you wanted us to start?

Soto, I think we still need your Initiative, and whether you want a fizzy lifting drink.