Playtest Results: Class vs Mythic Class

Arena style combat, no terrain, no tactical advantage to either side.

Level 16 Summoner vs Level 10 Tier 6 Summoner/Guardian

Initial assessment

The level 16 summoner is a leftover from my Carrion Crown campaign. Not optimized for arena combat. The eidolon (Veli) is optimized for caster lockdown with reach, bite, grab, grapple, constrict. The summoner (Asira) is optimized for skirmishing with +2 icy burst composite longbow, improved critical, movement feats. Both of them are below Wealth Per Level guidelines due to their involvement in a treasure-light AP (and never having sold any of the gear they pilfered through book 6).

The level 10 tier 6 mythic summoner is built specifically for arena combat on a mount. Eidolon (Gap Dragon) acts as that mount. If the Gap Dragon falls the mythic summoner has Mythic Augment Summoning to increase the power of Summon Monster V. The summoner is built for spear-charging and locking enemies in place. They were built with level 10 gear (since from what I've gathered wealth is based on level, not level+tier, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

First battle

It took 6 rounds.

The summoner opened by popping Beast Fury and charging Veli on the back of the Gap Dragon. They hiffed on all attacks. The Gap Dragon went (its normal turn this time) and got a claw attack off but did no damage. Asira moved away from Veli and shot, hitting the summoner for small damage.

And then Veli attacked. Bite, bite, tail, grab, grapple.

Round 2, the summoner popped Ally Defense, speared Veli for small damage, and jumped off her mount, ran away. The Gap Dragon popped Mythic Companion and still failed to attempt to escape the grapple. Asira peppered the summoner with arrows, hitting 2 of 3 for decent damage. Possible crit but didn't back it up. Meanwhile, Veli rips the Gap Dragon in half.

The mythic eidolon is dead.

Round 3, the summoner popped Mythic Power to go twice. First action, create pit under Veli. Veli makes his save (he saves on a nat 3). Second action, the summoner swears and pulls a Summon Monster V, mounts a Large Mythic Earth Elemental. Asira cast Banishment, the Elemental disappears. I allow the summoner to make an acrobatics check, lands on her feet.

And then Veli charged the summoner. Bite, grab, grapple.

Round 4, the summoner popped Mythic Power to add 1d8 to her roll and escaped the grapple. I allowed her to run the f$$$ away. Asira full attacked with the bow, hit twice for small damage. Veli charged. Bite, grab, grapple.

Round 5, the summoner popped Mythic Power to add 1d8 again and failed. Asira watched. Veli toyed with the summoner. End grapple as a free, full attack, grab and grapple as a free. Summoner ended the round in negatives, grappled again.

Round 6, the summoner popped Mythic Power one last time to add 1d8 again and failed. Asira pointed and laughed. Veli ripped the summoner to shreds.

Results

The Gap Dragon, the mythic eidolon, lasted 2 rounds. The mythic summoner lasted 6 rounds even with Epic DR as a power. Asira was unscathed, Veli took 3 points of damage.

Initial Conclusions

A level 10 tier 6 summoner is no way in heck as powerful as a level 16 summoner.

Upcoming...

A second battle between the summoners. This time the mythic will open with charging the squishy little skirmisher with no real melee weapons. If she can take out Asira before Veli can do much then she might be okay.

An analysis as to why I think the epic summoner is so weak and how this translates to mythic as a whole.

And hopefully... More matchups of classes vs their mythic counterparts.

Nice playtest, it is cool to see direct comparisons of mythic vs nonmythic versions of the classes. This is about what I would have expected of the summoner playtest since right now the mythic eidolon receives very little from his summoner's mythic tiers.

Level 16 Summoner vs Level 10 Tier 6 Summoner/Guardian

Different tactics this time. They're gonna try to charge Asira. See if they can take out Asira before Veli fully stomps the mythic summoner.

Second Battle

It took 5 rounds.

The summoner opened by popping Beast Fury and charging Asira on the back of the Gap Dragon. They whiffed on all attacks. Asira went next and ran like heck. The Gap Dragon charged and tried to nom Asira in the back, missed.

And then Veli attacked. Thing is, there's something important that he didn't use in the first combat. He flies. Dive, charge, bite, grapple. Successful fly check. If the summoner doesn't escape the grapple Veli will fly off with her.

Round 2, the summoner popped Mythic Power to add 1d8 to her roll and failed to escape the grapple. Asira misses with her daggers, the Gap Dragon claws her for decent damage. Veli flies almost straight up (makes the fly check) and drops the summoner from 80 feet. Falling damage is funny!

Round 3, the summoner popped Mythic Power to go twice. First action, charm monster on Veli. Veli saved. Asira stabbed the eidolon for crap damage, the eidolon bit her for better damage. Summoner's second action, she brings out her sling staff and... misses.

And then Veli dove on the summoner. Dive, charge, bite, grappled. Slams to the ground.

Round 4, the summoner popped Mythic Power to add 1d8 to her roll again. Failed to escape the grapple. Asira moved back, eidolon whiffed the AoO. Asira pulled a wand of enervation, eidolon takes 3 negative levels. Eidolon charged, missed. Veli lets go, full attacks. Summoner has 5 hp left.

Round 5, the summoner popped Mythic Power to go twice. Took a 5 foot, stabbed with her spear, missed. Asira cast dominate monster on the eidolon. Failed save. The eidolon drooled. The summoner's second action was to stab again, missed.

And then Veli went. Bite, bite, critted on the tail slap.

The summoner was bludgeoned to death.

Results

The Gap Dragon was dominated. The mythic summoner still had Epic DR and still only lasted 5 rounds. Veli was unscathed, Asira took damage about equal to 20% of her hitpoint total.

Conclusions

A level 10 tier 6 summoner is still no way in heck as powerful as a level 16 summoner.

The problem with the summoner is that, honestly, the majority of that class's power is wrapped up in its eidolon. And the eidolon doesn't scale with tiers. So no matter how many tiers a summoner has their eidolon is suffering from the 3.5 level adjustment problem.

A level 16 equivalent character does not do well pouring all of its hopes, effort, power, and resources into a mount, companion, or fighting pet with only 8 HD.

Veli represents an underpowered eidolon, honestly, since it wasn't built to maximize anything. It was built to fit a pattern that the player wanted to create. The Gap Dragon was built to be fast, strong, and on fire.

Therefore... unless there comes a way for eidolons to scale with mythic tiers the summoner cannot be played in a mythic game. It's too weak.

The mythic summoner is a nonviable character option.

Upcoming

Well, I found this 10th level inquisitor in my stable of old characters. I'll make copies, add 5 levels to one copy, and 5 tiers to the other copy. That way they'll start with the same god, same emphasis, same feats. The difference will entirely be levels vs tiers.

Round 2, the summoner popped Mythic Power to add 1d8 to her roll and failed to escape the grapple. Asira misses with her daggers, the Gap Dragon claws her for decent damage. Veli flies almost straight up (makes the fly check) and drops the summoner from 80 feet. Falling damage is funny!

Veli has a flight speed of 160???

Don't forget that you can only move at half speed when you grapple!

Not that it would have changed anything in the end...

Therefore... unless there comes a way for eidolons to scale with mythic tiers the summoner cannot be played in a mythic game. It's too weak.

The mythic summoner is a nonviable character option.

Try it with Summoner/Hierophant instead. There are a LOT of companion/familiar/eidolon boosting stuff in the Hierophant path, which are missing from Guardian.

Also LOL at Gap Dragon. Does it breathe steam?

This was a pretty good playtest, although I'm pretty sure the mythic summoner should have had wealth as if he was a 16th level character, not 10th, which would have probably given him a better to hit and damage.

This definitely points out the need for a mythic feat to allow the Summoner's eidolon to scale with tier. I'd write it up something like this:

Mythic Eidolon
Your eidolon feeds off your mythic power, growing stronger every day.
Prerequisite: Mythic tier 1, eidolon or fused eidolon class feature
Benefit: Your effective Summoner class level is equal to your Summoner class level plus your mythic tier for the purposes of determining your Eidolon's abilities. In addition, your eidolon is treated as if it had a mythic tier equal to 1/2 your mythic tier (rounded down) for the purposes of taking Mythic feats.

Actually, it looks like it could be more generic than that, so that the Druid or Ranger could use it too... I'd go with this instead:

Mythic Boon Companion
Your companion creature feeds off your mythic power, growing stronger every day.
Prerequisite: Mythic tier 1, companion creature (animal companion, familiar, eidolon, or bonded mount)
Benefit: Choose one companion creature that you have. Increase your effective Druid, Summoner, or Wizard level for determining all aspects of that companion by an amount equal to your mythic tiers. In addition, your companion creature is treated as if it had a mythic tier equal to 1/2 your mythic tier (rounded down) for the purposes of taking Mythic feats (but may only take Mythic feats when it would normally be able to gain a feat).

I don't have the document with me (at work), but as I said in my prior post, there are several abilities that boost those companion creatures already in the playtest. They're just hidden away in Hierophant path rather than as feats or universal path traits.

I don't have the document with me (at work), but as I said in my prior post, there are several abilities that boost those companion creatures already in the playtest. They're just hidden away in Hierophant path rather than as feats or universal path traits.

There are some that give boosts to eidolons and companion creatures, but NOTHING that lets them get more hit points, base attack, etc. Hit points is a big one... DR/epic can definitely help but you still need to have more hit points to survive longer IMHO.

Also LOL at Gap Dragon. Does it breathe steam?

Heee. I tried. Alas, breath weapons cost too many evolution points. I gave it an elixir of fire breath which for the first test it never even got a chance to use. But it did have six legs and useless little wings. (no points spent on the wings. really, if they're only there for looks...)

Mythic Boon Companion

Your companion creature feeds off your mythic power, growing stronger every day.
Prerequisite: Mythic tier 1, companion creature (animal companion, familiar, eidolon, or bonded mount)
Benefit: Choose one companion creature that you have. Increase your effective Druid, Summoner, or Wizard level for determining all aspects of that companion by an amount equal to your mythic tiers. In addition, your companion creature is treated as if it had a mythic tier equal to 1/2 your mythic tier (rounded down) for the purposes of taking Mythic feats (but may only take Mythic feats when it would normally be able to gain a feat).

That would have helped immensely. Veli's six levels worth of evolution points absolutely dominated over the Gap Dragon, even more so than the 4 HD. Being large and being able to fly (and fly fast) basically decided that combat before it began.

Try it with Summoner/Hierophant instead. There are a LOT of companion/familiar/eidolon boosting stuff in the Hierophant path, which are missing from Guardian.

Hierophant was my initial thought, actually. I decided against it because I felt there was so much from that tier that would be wasted on a non-divine caster.

I might do that after I finish the Inquisitor test.

Level 15 Inquisitor vs Level 10 Tier 5 Inquisitor/Champion, both are inquisitors of Erastil. Any suggestions while I'm still building the characters?

Try adding mythic tiers to the eidolon equal to the summoner's. I have a feeling that will make things a bit more even.

Try adding mythic tiers to the eidolon equal to the summoner's. I have a feeling that will make things a bit more even.

That wouldn't be useful for the playtest, though, as there's no current way to add mythic tiers to a summoner.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Try adding mythic tiers to the eidolon equal to the summoner's. I have a feeling that will make things a bit more even.

That wouldn't be useful for the playtest, though, as there's no current way to add mythic tiers to a summoner.

It wouldn't test the rules as written, but it would test a possible solution to an established problem with the RAW. Sometimes, Jason fishes for such solutions, so it may prove handy for the playtest.

cartmanbeck wrote:

Painful Bugger wrote:

Try adding mythic tiers to the eidolon equal to the summoner's. I have a feeling that will make things a bit more even.

That wouldn't be useful for the playtest, though, as there's no current way to add mythic tiers to a summoner.

It wouldn't test the rules as written, but it would test a possible solution to an established problem with the RAW. Sometimes, Jason fishes for such solutions, so it may prove handy for the playtest.

I think giving the eidolon full mythic tiers would be overly powerful, since the summoner would also be getting them. Maybe the eidolon could get half of the summoner's mythic tiers? That still probably wouldn't even out well enough though. I think just treating mythic tiers as levels for the stats and abilities of the eidolon (or other bonded creature) would work better.

However, it brings up an interesting question... once you hit 20th level, what do mythic tiers do for your eidolon or companion? As of now, nothing except allowing them to use mythic power if you choose that option. So, you you could run into this situation if you use my suggested fix:

You're a 13th level Summoner with 7th tier Heirophant. You've taken the "Mythic Boon Companion" feat, so your eidolon is treated as a 20th level Summoner's. You gain another Summoner level. Your eidolon... stays exactly the same. There's no benefit there, and since the eidolon is a huge part of the class's power, you're also nerfing those additional levels of Summoner.

This is kind of a complicated problem. Maybe it would be better, instead of treating the summoner's level as higher, if a mythic power option for any class with a companion creature would be to increase the hit points and BAB of the companion without actually increasing its levels? Something like this:

Companion Boost
Prerequisites: 1st mythic tier and animal companion, mount or eidolon class feature.
Benefit: For each mythic tier you attain, your companion's hit points increase by 4. Your companion's base attack bonus and saves increase according to the table below.

Tier BAB Fort Ref Will
1 +0 +1 +1 +0
2 +1 +1 +1 +1
3 +2 +1 +1 +1
4 +2 +2 +2 +1
5 +3 +2 +2 +2
6 +4 +3 +3 +2
7 +4 +3 +3 +2
8 +5 +4 +4 +3
9 +6 +4 +4 +3
10 +6 +5 +5 +3

If a Summoner and Eidolon were to both get Mythic Tiers, then in that instance they should probably share a pool of Mythic Power between them. They should also perhaps share the limit of one mythic power use per round. For instance, if the summoner uses a point from the shared mythic pool to go twice, the eidolon can't burn any mythic power that round.

I'm sorry. I'm just here supporting Gap Dragons.

If a Summoner and Eidolon were to both get Mythic Tiers, then in that instance they should probably share a pool of Mythic Power between them. They should also perhaps share the limit of one mythic power use per round. For instance, if the summoner uses a point from the shared mythic pool to go twice, the eidolon can't burn any mythic power that round.

This fits with some of the other limits placed on summoners and their eidolons, like where they share a set of magic item slots.

I could see their shared pool based on the Summoner's stats and tier.

Inquisitor test is going to be slow getting off the ground. The mythic inquisitor is ready but the standard inquisitor is taking time to build.

And I got so much stuff to do the next four days.

On a related note, plum pudding has no plums in it. I did not know that.

If a Summoner and Eidolon were to both get Mythic Tiers, then in that instance they should probably share a pool of Mythic Power between them. They should also perhaps share the limit of one mythic power use per round. For instance, if the summoner uses a point from the shared mythic pool to go twice, the eidolon can't burn any mythic power that round.

There is no such limit. Don't mix houserules on the playtest. Test the rules as they are so the devs can decide if such a limit should exist.

Dal Selpher wrote:

If a Summoner and Eidolon were to both get Mythic Tiers, then in that instance they should probably share a pool of Mythic Power between them. They should also perhaps share the limit of one mythic power use per round. For instance, if the summoner uses a point from the shared mythic pool to go twice, the eidolon can't burn any mythic power that round.

There is no such limit. Don't mix houserules on the playtest. Test the rules as they are so the devs can decide if such a limit should exist.

I meant "a" limit rather than "the" limit. Apologies.

So wait, Mythic fixes the OP Summoner builds?

Well I'll be damned.

I'm afraid this test is fundamentally flawed.

First Mistake: For a proper comparison they both should have been built the same. The only differences being those 6 levels (one with mythic levels one without. And possible eidolon differences due to Evo point limitations. Gold differences should also factor in but keep the items relatively the same.

By building them differently you are testing different options against one another but not the factor you want to test (the mythic tiers).

Second Mistake: Pitting them against each other. Pathfinder isn't terribly well designed for this. It's meant for players to go against monsters or npc's. A better comparison might have been to pit them individually against the same CR18 monster and see who turns out best. For completions sake make two monsters, one mythic and one not and pit them each against both.

Third Mistake but One nice discovery. At this here time the playtest doesn't support summoners very well at all. However one thing that is worth noting is that it doesn't support companions well at all. I imagine if you did this with two druids you would have came out wih similar results seeing as the druids effecive level would have been 6 less than the nonmythic druid with barely anything to show for it.

I think for your inquisitor you should correct those mistakes for a more accurate and useful account.