Curse of the Crimson Throne

Game Master Whack-a-Rogue

Post all out-of-character discussion here. This is also the place to post level-up changes and gear purchases. For the moment, dot here with your character concept and any questions you might have. I've listed some preliminary crunch in case you want to start working on your build, but don't feel like you need to rush that part. Since there's so much homebrew involved (and Spheres + Gestalt is already complicated), I want to make sure everyone's as comfortable as possible.

STAT GENERATION
This is a four-step process that will result in all attributes between 8 and 18.
1) Select a race and gain the relevant attributes and abilities. You'll also get a free ability boost that can go anywhere except Dexterity. This can be used to eliminate one penalty if desired. If the race you want isn't listed on my website, feel free to run it past me. Korvosa is predominantly human, but there are a fair few dwarves, elves, and halflings. Other races are rather rare, but don't let that stop you. If you want to be the city's only Kitsune, for instance, that's perfectly fine.
2) Choose one of your starting classes and gain an ability boost in that class's spellcasting or practicioner attribute. Wizards use INT, Bards use CHA, Monks use WIS, etc. This ensures you're capable of using all class features at Level 1 even if you normally have a racial penalty. If you have a selectible attribute (like Fighters do), the ability boost needs to match.
3) Choose a Background and choose one of the ability boosts. You'll also get a free ability boost that can go anywhere except whatever ability you already picked.
4) Boost four stats of your choice.

Traits: Select one trait of your choice. If you're so inclined, you can select an additional trait by taking a DRAWBACK, but it needs to be something that can be roleplayed at least occasionally.
Starting Gear: any class-specific gear (holy symbol, spell component pouch, etc) + 150gp worth of equipment and mundane items. Then roll 1d100, and I'll give you something interesting.

That should be enough for everyone to get started. Send me any questions you have: my weekend just started and the wife's visiting their parents, so I'm extremely available for the next two days.

Glad to be here! Will start working on the crunch/asking questions. :)

Something Interesting: 1d100 ⇒ 84

First of all, for ability boost, that means +2, right?

1) Select a race and gain the relevant attributes and abilities. You'll also get a free ability boost that can go anywhere except Dexterity. This can be used to eliminate one penalty if desired. If the race you want isn't listed on my website, feel free to run it past me. Korvosa is predominantly human, but there are a fair few dwarves, elves, and halflings. Other races are rather rare, but don't let that stop you. If you want to be the city's only Kitsune, for instance, that's perfectly fine.
Dwarf with Str boost: Str (12) Dex (10) Con (12) Int (10) Wis (12) Cha (8)
2) Choose one of your starting classes and gain an ability boost in that class's spellcasting or practicioner attribute. Wizards use INT, Bards use CHA, Monks use WIS, etc. This ensures you're capable of using all class features at Level 1 even if you normally have a racial penalty. If you have a selectible attribute (like Fighters do), the ability boost needs to match.
Monk: Str (12) Dex (10) Con (12) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (8)
3) Choose a Background and choose one of the ability boosts. You'll also get a free ability boost that can go anywhere except whatever ability you already picked.
Artist for +2 Dex and +2 Con: Str (12) Dex (12) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (8)
4) Boost four stats of your choice.
+3 Str +2 Wis
Str (18) Dex (12) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (18) Cha (8)

Hello and thank you! I hope we have a good and enjoyable time.

Let's go straight to it. First, let's see if I gasped the concept (I'm not much familiar with it, but I think PF2 uses a similar method, right?):

Let's assume I'm making a Dwarf Sentinel:

1. I get to add +2 to Con, +2 to Wis and -2 to Cha. I have a free choice (except Dex) so I chose another +2 Con.

2. Now I receive a +2 to Wis (Sentinel's Practicioner Attribute).

3. For Background, I'll pick Miner. From the two choices it gives me, I'll get the +2 Str, and my free choice will be a +2 Con.

4. Free choices! I'm assuming they all have to go to different attributes, so let's say +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis and +2 Int.

Tal mean my final stats, assuming they all start at 10, wood be:

Str 14, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Tell me if I did something wrong.

Also, I've noticed if you go martial, your potential on your main physical stat is 18 (16 if you go Dex), whereas casters have a potential of 20. And it seems all natural classes will be made into Spheres users, since that's the only way to have a Practicioner's Attribute (not that I care, I love Spheres).

I'll be working on it!

Edit: Traits

We don't need to pick a campaign trait?

Grumbaki here. With the character I was working on for fun while thinking about the campaign. Of course will need some reworks as build rules come out. But was a lot of fun making a tatto/fist-mage.

And typo above. Wis is 16

So half-orcs rock it like they always do, correct? That would basically give me two floating +2s to put anywhere.

That percentile you called for: 1d100 ⇒ 36

The gal in my head is most likely going to end up as (ranger or fighter) paired with (cleric of Sarenrae or elemental fire sorcerer). I'll start getting her bolted together.

So, I have several ideas, crunch wise:

-A shield thrower, wich would be a Conscript/Martial Hedgewitch (because ranged builds need that many talents). With Startoss+Vital Strike, he can dish out quite some shovels of damage while using magic talents to help a bit (mostly 1 or 2 talents in many spheres).

-A Sage (blaster)/Anything that helps improve its BAB. That one would also be a ranged DPS with magic help, but more Dragon Ball Z style :P

-A Dual Channeler Soul Weaver/Anything. This one's less defined yet,, it's the idea I have give less thought of all since I was reserving it in case I got into the goblins game. I think this one is rather flexible, as it do a lot of things with channeling. It would take more levels than the other ones to gain shape, though.

I accept suggestions, and though I'll be skimming through talents, feats, etc., I'll try to wait until you guys know what you want to do/want me to do. We're going to be only 3, and most of the situations should be covered (though I'm telling you in advice, I'm a terrible face...).

Does getting Prophetic Visionary free from Background skip the "Oracle mystery" prereq?

When it comes to roles, Torsten is melee DPS. As a sphere monk his damage is mediocre (1d4+7). But he can trip people and the damage will increase. Plus at lvl1 he can use a spell point when punching someone to make them blind. Kind of like stunning fist, only with spheres.

As an Incanter his theme is tattoos. All of his spells come from that, and his casting tradition causes (a) his tattoos to light up and (b) for him to draw the tattoo being activated in the air while saying it’s name. Because of this I only plan to take thematic talents, which could be explained as being from tattoos. So self+touch only. Very heavy focus on enhancement sphere, with lay on hands class ability. He’s from the Runeforger clan, only unlike his ancestors he puts runes onto his body instead of onto stone and steel.

And finally he is a decent face. Still figuring out the right skills, but starts off with Diplomacy +9 and Intimidate +7

Good, Melee+Enhancer, that's a nice combo. Redblade seems to go for Oracle/Something.

One of the things Spheres allow if to be able to do anything no matter the class, since all classes have access to the same Spheres. Clerics can use Destruction and Wizards can (theoretically) use Life.

My initial, not-using-classes-as-descriptors idea was "swords and fire." Still identifying what classes will provide each of those two things. Oracle could certainly do the fire part with the Flames mystery, so maybe I'll take a look there as well. (I had considered the Elementalist class, but the pulses seem to reach a point of making the "swords" part superfluous.)

EDIT: If I go Oracle, would the Solar mystery be a lot to port over? I could just stick with Flames, but either really works. (In my head, she's sort of "River Tam, with fire.")

Next of my 17 remaining questions: you have Oracles as sphere casters, but they're still getting their old-form bonus spells. Original Recipe SoP simply grants extra spell points instead, what's the intent here?

Yay for type finding! I made the write-up for the Goblin campaign first and then copied everything over here. That bit about "any attribute except Dexterity" got overlooked. The initial free ability boost can go anywhere except the stat/s that already get a bonus. In other words, an Dwarf could put the initial free boost anywhere except CON or WIS. The four free boosts at the end are supposed to go to four different stats. Apologies if that wasn't clear. The combination of those factors should eliminate the "martials cap at 18 but casters cap at 20" thing Jereru noticed. If you're familiar with PF2e character creation, it's basically identical.

@Redblade8: Yes, humans, half-orcs, and half-elves essentially get two bonuses and no penalty. That's generally been the trade-off for having no interesting racial features. XD In regards to your other question, you're correct. Feats gained via the Background feature ignore prerequisites. As for the "swords and fire" concept, take a look at Armorist and/or Prodigy Magus. The former can give you customizable magic weapons; the latter is just cool. XD

@Jereru: I think you'll find hat ranged builds needs quite as many talents as you might think. Elephant in the Room eliminates the "Point Blank Shot" feat tax, and Deadly Aim is a basic combat ability once you hit BAB +1. Single dips in Sniper and Barrage will give you Precise Shot and Rapid Shot, and you should be good to go. XD If you're still considering Soul Weaver, take a look at the Divine Channeler Cleric archetype for the other half. Those two should pair well together for maximum channeling options.

I just realized this would probably be helpful. XD

SKILLS
Acrobatics
Appraise
Athletics (climb, jump, run, swim)
Craft
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist
Fly
Handle Animal
Heal
Influence
K: arcane
K: civilization
K: divine
K: dungeoneering
K: engineering
K: history
K: martial
K: nature
K: occult
K: planes
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Stealth
Survival
Use Magic Device

My initial, not-using-classes-as-descriptors idea was "swords and fire." Still identifying what classes will provide each of those two things. Oracle could certainly do the fire part with the Flames mystery, so maybe I'll take a look there as well. (I had considered the Elementalist class, but the pulses seem to reach a point of making the "swords" part superfluous.)

Mage Knight gives full BaB and sphere magic, with plenty of ways to enchant yourself.

kinetic knight kineticist

Kinetic Blade is what it is all about. “You form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you’re a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade’s shape is purely cosmetic and doesn’t affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn’t prevent her from using gather power.

You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it’s part of another action (and isn’t an action itself), using this wild talent doesn’t provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn’t add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.”

————

So you end up with a full-BaB partial caster who uses fire Kineticist to make a sword literally made out of flames.

I just realized this would probably be helpful. XD

SKILLS
Acrobatics
Appraise
Athletics (climb, jump, run, swim)
Craft
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist
Fly
Handle Animal
Heal
Influence
K: arcane
K: civilization
K: divine
K: dungeoneering
K: engineering
K: history
K: martial
K: nature
K: occult
K: planes
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Stealth
Survival
Use Magic Device

Would racial alternative that gives +2 Diplomacy translate to +2 influence?

It would become a situational bonus akin to the Craftsman alternate racial trait. +2 to Influence attempts to improve a creature's attitude or otherwise "make nice to someone."

Just realized I forgot to answer a question about campaign traits. You're not required to take one: they're not the most interesting from a mechanical standpoint.

The one thing that's required is that each of you got screwed over in the past by a crime lord named Gaedren Lamm. The specifics are left up to you. The man kidnaps orphans to use as drug mules, so pretty much anything's on the table. The party doesn't need to have known or interacted with each other at the beginning of the campaign, but this shared hatred of Lamm will serve as the way you'll end up bonding.

For a Motive, how about this:

Torsten ran a tattoo parlor in the area that Gaedren Lamm claimed as his territory. Lamm’s thugs demanded “tax” money and that without it they couldn’t guarantee his safety. Torsten refuses, and not a week later his home and business was burnt to the ground. Years and years of hard work all lost in a single night. And to add insult to injury, he has been told that he still owes “back taxes” to Lamm, and that if those aren’t paid then they couldn’t guarantee his safety.

This would set him up as someone who had a place in the city, where he wasn’t an adventurer or the like, but rather a (legitimate) tax paying citizen and property owner. And given what he had lost, and the threat of bodily harm to follow, he’d have plenty of reason to hate Lamm.

That's perfect! Having a connection to the city is also helpful ... considering the entire AP is about saving Korvosa from a terrible threat. XD

The concept as she started developing is a wandering half-orc out of Belkzen, a member of the Burning Sun tribe. Periodically, tribe members leave Belkzen on what could only be described as missionary assignments, spreading the word of those who revere the Burning Mother.

Yhrrilka and came to Korvosa with her friend Zohruk and decided to stay there, the two of them basically performing random do-gooder acts, until they caught Lamm's attention. His effort to show them what he thought of their efforts got Zohruk killed, and Yhrrilka is laying low, trying to plot her next move.

That works pretty well. Is there anything keeping Yhrrilka from just saying "screw this and heading back to Belkzen once she's had her revenge?

Well, the task wasn't "Stay until it gets a little hard, then bail." Ril tries to leave now, she's left the job undone.

So a cultural ambassador ran into Lamm? Heh. Talk about bad luck.

So a cultural ambassador ran into Lamm? Heh. Talk about bad luck.

No joke there. Sarenites from Belkzen are gonna have a hard enough time without that jerk...

@Redblade8: Fair enough. XD

I think the problem with "caps at 18/20" lies in the Class bonus step. Martials get a bonus to their Practicioner stat, which is usually a mental stat or Con. Casters get a bonus to their casting stat. Thus, while Wizard gets a boost to Int at this step, there's no way a martial gets a bonus to Str or Dex. We'll have to live with it, and it's not much of a problem anyway (I hope), but I thought it was something worth mentioning.

The possible concepts will be something like:

Shield thrower: a veteran of war who gets hooked into drugs when he finds himself unable to bear life with his mental sequels ("It wasn't my war!").

Soul Weaver: a guy who looked for a way to placate his constant interactions with the netherworld ("I see dead people").

Oooh. Two cool concepts. I think the shield thrower fits the early campaign well, given that the drug addiction fits in with Lamm. Plus as a Veteran, he’d have a reason to care about the city.

For the one who sees dead people, what would his connection to Lamm be?

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps changing to another floating +2 would work better. That way Rogues can max out their DEX and whatnot. I'm trying to reduce caster-martial disparity, after all.

EDIT: Lamm killed a loved one, and they now haunt the PC?

The connection is the same, that's why I didn't mention it: he looks for a way to soothe his mind and stop hearing voices, so ends up hooked to whatever drug Gaedren gives him. Though that doesn't mean the "my cousin tells me Gaedren is bad" should be discarded...

Got to say that sounds really interesting. Would be also very thematic to take the possessed hand feat tree

Started the effort of putting Ril to paper (well, figurative paper at least). Going with her as a Fighter/Sorc, seemed the most straightforward.

As I'm working this, if any of you see ways to tweak the way I'm doing it, well, I'm listening. Hell, this is my first time trying a Sphere character, and I don't even have Hero Lab to fall back on here, I'm a mess! :D

Is your Sorc/Fighter going to be Str or Dex focused? Sorcs can’t wear armor, which lends itself to Dex builds. Which may not be what your half-orc is going for. Especially as the Orc Bloodline can add up to +6 Str as an untyped bonus.

For your stats i think you can get them to be Str (16) Dex (14) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (10) Cha (16).

That’s more than enough Cha for a lvl1 Sorc to have. And it lets you hit things with a weapon pretty darn hard. The Orc Bloodline will add AC at lvl3 (with eventual immunity to fear) and will start adding Str as well.

If you are going Dex instead (as a fighter with feat tax rules, you can have slashing grace at lvl1, letting you go dex to damage with swords) then you could have:

Str (10) Dex (18) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (10) Cha (16)

Plenty of AC with Mage Armor. Decent damage and Spellcasting. Take the trait “muscle of the society” so you have Str12 for carry capacity and breaking down doors (represents Orcish strength). Would be a pretty strong build.

Anyways, that would be my suggested tweaks.

Having a look at a potential Soul Weaver/Channeler Cleric. It seems he'd do wonders with his Channeling but would be a bit melee weak. With a half-monk and a half-fighter though, this may not be a big problem.

Do we have a way to deal with traps/locks? Knowledges?

Good questions. For skills, I’m going to delay my trade domain until lvl5 and start with a familiar. Ioun Wyrd Sage Archetype. Feels Dwarven to be followed around by a handful of floating rocks and gems. Given the archetype, it is one stone for each knowledge skill, inscribed with a rune that says the skill name.

That will give me +1 AC, but more importantly it will mean that the familiar can make all knowledge checks untrained. Which at lvl 1 is a sad -1...but it will get much better as levels go on. At the very least it will mean that all checks can be attempted. By lvl5 it will be all skills at +6. Not as good as a trained PC, but good enough.

We currently have no ways to deal with traps...unless the GM allows the trait trap finder or if our half-Orc sinks a feat into trap wrecker

My first impression was to have her be Dex based, just going from what I saw in my mind's eye. I hadn't planned on the Orc bloodline, unless I slogged through the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

I'll take another look at Ril, I might very well incorporate your suggestions. Thanks, Grum.

BTW, anyone know if there's a Spheres add-on for Hero Lab?

EDIT: as to the issue of traps, I strongly considered Urban Ranger for Ril, which I think would have settled that issue, but I think I'd then MAD it up a little. Let me see if there's a way around that...

EDIT 2: after a quick perusal, it looks like the only thing for which these Rangers rely on Wis is as practicioner modifier. Is there a trait to change that to Cha? I know there's an equivalent trait for Sphere casting...

There is also the seeker sorcerer

“ Tinkering (Ex)

Seekers often look to ancient devices, old tomes, and strange magical items in order to learn more about their sorcerous bloodlines. As a result of this curiosity and thanks to an innate knack at deciphering the strange and weird, a seeker gains Disable Device as a class skill. In addition, at 1st level, a seeker adds half his oracle or sorcerer level on Perception checks made to locate traps and on all Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A seeker can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. If the seeker also possesses levels in rogue or another class that provides the trapfinding ability, those levels stack with his sorcerer levels for determining his overall bonus on these skill checks.

This ability replaces his bonus Eschew Materials feat.”

That would save your second class to be whatever you want without worrying about Trapfinding. Fighter, swashbuckler, virtuous bravo Paladin, spheres of might class...whatever fits her the best.

So looking at the party.

Torsten: Dwarven Monk/Enhancer. Str Melee, Trip, Self Buff, Self Healing, Subpar Knowledge Skills

Yhrillka: Half-Orc Fighter/Sorcerer. Dex Melee, Fire-Blaster, maybe trap finding?

Soulweaver/Cleric. Channeling for days! Lots of spells.

Seems like a pretty balanced party thus far. I’m not seeing any glaring weaknesses or design overlaps. Also like that in a city focused game we aren’t going to be walking around covered in plate with giant weapons. Thematically the lightly armored/lightly armed feel fits better. And with conversion inquisition/high Cha, all three of us can talk without issue

Cool to know about the Seeker archetype, but I think I'd just as soon keep her at base Sorcerer and use Urban Ranger (just note that means I don't actually get Trapfinding until 4), assuming I can clear the practicioner modifier issue with an equivalent trait to Unorthodox Caster.

EDIT: I also just did a dot-and-delete of the Gameplay thread so that this shows up in my Campaigns tab, I hope that's okay.

Note: The Protection Domain grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves +1 extra for every 5 levels. In a game with Automatic Bonus Progression in effect, that seems quite redundant.

Not that I'm going to pick the Protection domain anyway (or even the cleric), but I was skimming through the domains page and spotted this.

@Redblade8: Taken from the SoP wiki XD

If you have classes with conflicting casting or practitioner ability modifiers, choose one CAM and one PAM to use for those two classes. (For example, if one class requires you to use Charisma and the other requires you to use Wisdom, you can choose to use either Charisma or Wisdom for both of those classes.) This only applies to the classes you gain at first level. Any classes gained later use their normal casting/practitioner ability modifiers.

@Jereru: Thanks for the reminder that I need to go through and check for redundancies at some point. XD I'll likely change the Protection domain to a sacred/profane bonus.

That's awesome, thanks for letting me know!

Nice. That makes the domain much more useful. Might take it (purity domain) instead of trade. But lvl5 is far enough away not to worry now.

My intent is to make each of the domains approximately the same power level. Half of the reason for my homebrew is eliminating all the crappy options, after all. XD

Grumbaki Trinket
A white satin glove with no visible seams. It can be easily turned inside-out to wear on a left or right hand.

Redblade Trinket
A silver bracelet with finely-wrought filigree in the shape of vines

Lots of useful stuff about stat arrays.

I keep coming back to S12/D16/C14/I10/W10/Ch16, which I think I can get to given the stat spreads we get. Even on my Dex-based characters I hate leaving them at just a 10 Str, it rankles. :)

Coming together, but the tough part will be the starting sphere stuff. As far as a casting tradition, I'm trying to decide if I want the "off the rack" version of the sorcerer tradition (i.e. Verbal, and Somatic jacked up to mandating no armor whatsoever). I might, with GM permission, think about another option there, unless I just tough it out until I figure a way to mitigate the ASF.

I respect the decision to have the Str12. It is made for all the right reasons.

I respect the decision to have the Str12. It is made for all the right reasons.

Appreciate the sentiment. It's tough to suspend disbelief that you're a "tough guy" on a 10 Str. :)

GM, is the intent that for most classes, martial weapon proficiency is only provided by, I think the thing I'm thinking of is traditions? A few of the oddball options I was looking for show up on none of them.

Most martial SoM classes give you only basic proficiencies (usually simple weapons and light armor) plus a martial tradition. Martial traditions usually give you a discipline talent (the one that contains several weapon proficiencies) and three other talents.

For example, the Fearless Thrower tradition gives you Huntsman Training, a disciplne talent that grants proficiency with a lot of ranged weapons (and a nice extra perk), and three other talents all related to kill from a distance.

Nothing stops you, though, from buying another discipline talent to receive more proficiencies. If the weapon you want is not in any of the "regular" discipline talents, there's always one called Custom Training, which grants you between 3 and 5 proficiencies of your own choice.

All of these are top be found in the Equipment Sphere, of course.

Also, a question: if I receive Channeling from my two classes, how many channelings per day do I receive? Both pools? The biggest pool? Are they separate pools?

Hello! Jereru here, this is going to be my alias. I'll dot in the Campaign tab as well so as to better follow this thread.

I'll write down the background and then start transcribing all the crunch.

Can’t wait to see Macaria’s crunch. :)

Also noticed that Ril also has craft tattoos. Torsten approves!