Ninja Build - Surviving PFS

Hello all,

I'm playing a Ninja atm in PFS and I just hit level 2, haven't played a session as level 2 yet so I'm checking to see if I need to retrain anything before my build/stats are set in stone. Here's what my plan for levels 1-11 look like at the moment -

I really want the Wall Climber Ninja Trick as I plan on climbing on top of builds, etc to get height advantage and to easily get past certain traps or terrain. My initiative modifier is +10 at the moment and my skills are as follows -

Can anyone give some advice if there's any glaring issues with my build or suggestions on items/gear I should purchase? I'm currently level 2 and I need to remain viable throughout my career to reach level 12 without dying. Thanks.

My alternate build that I've thought about switching to is below. This involves using Spring Attack and 2handed Katana while pumping Str (I can get Keen enchant on Katana by time I'd have Agile on something to use dex mod, plus using 1.5x str mod for extra dmg with 1/4 chance to crit (keen enchant.))

Would this build do more consistent damage? I'm not sure if it's worth the tradeoff as I'm losing AC, +initiative, and +atk with finesse and ranged weapons. The Spring Attack with Scout at later levels will let me get SA dmg in anytime though. Thoughts? Suggestions?

I personally like the Alternate build. You can mix and match, You can take the STR build and still use most of the feats and play style of the first build. This frees up your third level feat. I feel you gain more from the STR than DEX/weapon finesse.

Yeah, I do agree and the Katana itself does more damage and has an excellent crit range. The first build relies on non-lethal damage more which could be an issue. But I would probably have a higher attack bonus with the weapon finesse build?

I do have to say I like the Dodge-Mobility_Spring Attack option and at level 8 Scout I can always SA even without flanking, so I can dart in SA and dart out.

What do you think about Blind-Fight? I figured taking that would help keep me from getting Sneak Attacked or Flat-footed since I'll be trading Uncanny Dodge and Imp Uncanny Dodge for the Scout archetype benefits.

Any other feats that would be helpful?

If you want to use sneak attack when sneaking around in the dark you need either some form of darkvision or else the Shadow Strike feat. I'd see that as higher priority than Blind-Fighting, especially since it also helps with blur, fog etc.

You bring up a good point avr. Should I go Gnome or Half-Orc? Or should I spend a feat on grabbing Shadow Strike? Is there any advantage having Low-Light vision over Darkvision?

Gnomes don't get darkvision, dwarves do. Half-orcs make better scout-ninjas with Spring attack due to not having a speed penalty.

Half-orc is probably a good choice providing you're OK with the image change. Low light is almost strictly worse in combat, is definitely worse for sneaking, and is only occasionally useful for seeing long distances outside at night.

Gnomes alt racial gives darkvision in ARG.

Hmm, aren't there elf/half elf variants which get darkvision due to drow descent? I'd forgotten racial variants.

I wouldn't see gnome or dwarf as good options for a spring attacker due to that speed penalty though. Hal-orc should work just fine.

One question, I haven't played in PFS, is there support for a rogue-type sneaking around in the dark in their games? It can be a tricky thing in some campaigns I've played in.

Hmm, aren't there elf/half elf variants which get darkvision due to drow descent? I'd forgotten racial variants.

I wouldn't see gnome or dwarf as good options for a spring attacker due to that speed penalty though. Hal-orc should work just fine.

One question, I haven't played in PFS, is there support for a rogue-type sneaking around in the dark in their games? It can be a tricky thing in some campaigns I've played in.

The elf darkvision is banned in pfs.

Spring attack isn't very good normally. Since your taking most the feats any way take a 1 level dip into shadowdancer. That way you can spring attack from stealth and back into it. 2nd level has all kinds of goodies too...and the shadow from the third level just breaks entire scenarios.

stealth is expect table variation. Your party is as likely to mess up any chance of stealth more than the bad guys. I played an arcane trickster and had the perfect mission for his skills...yeah that didn't happen, not because I didn't do my part, because the party couldn't stand outside.

I agree with avr, not having darkvision on a sa build is crazy.

How much of a game changer is it being a Skulking Slayer (Half-Orc racial archetype) compared to Ninja? I'm not sure how I'd make use of Underhanded Maneuvers as I'm not sure how great Dirty Tricks is. Maybe the Steal combat maneuver might be decent but I don't think I'm looking to drop a lot of feats on either of those.... The d8's instead of D6's is nice for SA.

I believe Scout would still be fine to mix with Skulking Slayer for the Spring Attack moves but I could be wrong.

@Under A Bleeding Sun - I heard the shadow pet is pretty weak actually. Which deterred me from a 3lvl Shadowdancer dip.

That is a lie and wrong information. I have two different players who have shadow pets (one is online and another is at FLGS). I have seen the shadow clear every encounter single-handedly except for the BBEG in a tier 10-11 scenario. Give the order "Go attack things until something can hurt you then retreat and come back.". Its even more sick if you have someone in the party willing to give it stoneskin. I've been playing with this guys shadowdancer for nearly a year now (hes on slow progression, right about to hit seeker) and I've seen the shadow break numerous scenarios and combats.

Just this weekend at FLGS the shadow solo'd 2 encounters in the game I ran. It also provided valuable scouting advice and helped provide a flank buddy.

If anything it is too strong. I just had another player opt out of making a shadowdancer b/c he's seen what my higher level friends pet does and he says its too strong for PFS.

Sorry, what is FLGS?

I'm not seeing much of a payoff with Skulking Slayer and I'm thinking the Invisible Blade advanced Ninja trick is pretty worth. What are your thoughts on straight Ninja compared to a Rogue / Shadowdancer combo?

The biggest issue I guess I'll have is surviving long enough to make it to the higher levels or at least that's what everyone tells me at my local PFS area as they've said they have seen many rogues die.

Dirty trick is a great maneuver, very versatile!
Skulking Slayer is more of a bruiser compared to the ninja.
You´re still more relying on tactics and need to care more than most full BAB classes though.
As a ninja you use your ki tricks to gain advantages and deal SA, a skulking slayer uses dirty trick.
Dirty trick can be done without a resource like ki, si it´s possibly lasting longer.
If you take the right tricks though, a ninja is more versatile i guess.

Thanks, I think I'd rather be a Ninja/Scout then as I'm looking to be more versatile. What are your thoughts Hayato Ken on Str based rogue vs Dex based rogue? I guess I'd be going Half-Orc with either build so there would be a few minor changes to the 2 above builds I listed but pretty much the same.

FLGS - Friendly Local Game Store.

Skulking slayer is great (I have one), but its for a very specific playstyle. I don't think thats what your going for based off what I'm reading.

Rogue/shadowdancer vs ninja: I suspect the ninja is better at 2 with vanishing trick, and then the rogue breaks ahead at 6, and the ninja tops out again at 10 with invisible blade. Its obviously a lot more complex than that. Still, those shadows can own things so brings the rogue up as a strong contender.

I haven't seen rogues have too much trouble surviving compared to other characters. Maybe they scout ahead and get ganked or something.

Oh yeah, make sure to work Dampen Presence into your build. Its needed for stealth against a lot of nasty critters.

...

One question, I haven't played in PFS, is there support for a rogue-type sneaking around in the dark in their games? It can be a tricky thing in some campaigns I've played in.

This largely depends upon the player of the sneak character. Most of the scenarios I have played or GM'd, having a sneak can be very effective (a few are much more difficult to succeed without one).

However, it relies on the sneaky being pretty active and stepping forward to tell the group what you want/plan/can/will do.

Some people that want to play a sneaky type seem to do so because they are a fairly introverted personality. They don't want to take center stage, take charge, or say 'this is how it is going to be.' They want to be quite and sneak around the edges and say nothing.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work to well in an RPG. If you are going to be the scout, you have to tell Sir Clanks-a-Lot to stay at least 50' back from you, you have to take center stage while you are scouting and reporting back what you found, you have to ask people to set up flanking positions for you, you have to remind people to not start casting while you are still sneaking, etc...

FLGS - Friendly Local Game Store.

Skulking slayer is great (I have one), but its for a very specific playstyle. I don't think thats what your going for based off what I'm reading.

Rogue/shadowdancer vs ninja: I suspect the ninja is better at 2 with vanishing trick, and then the rogue breaks ahead at 6, and the ninja tops out again at 10 with invisible blade. Its obviously a lot more complex than that. Still, those shadows can own things so brings the rogue up as a strong contender.

I haven't seen rogues have too much trouble surviving compared to other characters. Maybe they scout ahead and get ganked or something.

Oh yeah, make sure to work Dampen Presence into your build. Its needed for stealth against a lot of nasty critters.

Wow, great advice with Dampen Presence. I didn't know this existed. Along with a Negate Aroma wand I'll be nearly impossible to locate. :)

I'm not much of an introvert so that should work to my benefit.

Falchion or Katana? Or is the difference hardly anything?

get people of the north "tribal scars" feat extra hp and move!

get people of the north "tribal scars" feat extra hp and move!

That's a great feat - +6hp, +5 movespeed, and +2 acrobatics.

Only problem is I'm not sure how I'd fit that in at the moment.

Here's my updated build -

Maybe at level 9? Am I missing anything?

Also, Katana or Falchion?

In my opinion, that is more of an early value feat. A +6 hp at first level (approx 65% increase) is excellent. At 9th level (approx. 10% increase) it is ok.
Same for the other benefits. By 9th level you have lots of ways to increase your speed or skills. So it won't be all that noticeable.

Any advice on what feat to take instead at level 9 then in reference to the "Half-Orc Ninja/Scout" build? Also, I guess I should go with the Falchion over the Katana since I'm proficient with both?

Well, I would probably take Tribal Scars at level 1 and push all the others back a notch.

Or

You might consider iron will. You are not going to have good will saves and they begin to become really important later.

Death From Above might be fun with your wall climber thing.

Extra rogue talent

Keen scent

Razortusk

Does stealthy stack with skill focus?

I like teamwork feats if you play regularly with someone that will match your choice.

I would probably go with katana since you may want to use your other hand for a wand, potion, or climbing. But it can be argued either way.

I would suggest dropping something 1 or 2 points to raise int for skill points to be put in monster knowledges. A scout that can only report he saw big ugly things may not be quite as useful.

As a ninja you want vanishing trick ASAP. its THE reason to be a ninja. If you're a ninja scout its really nice to charge, backstab, then vanish before they can keel you

Tried Death from Above, but 1/2 or more of the GM's at my local PFS said they wouldn't let it fly since it requires a full round charge which falling or jumping is not. I originally was going Wall Climber, Acrobatics Master, and High Jumper to really work Death from Above but it turned out to be a no go due to table variance with GM's at my local PFS area so I had to scratch it.

Teamwork feats are great but I don't have anyone that I play with regularly to work teamwork feats with.

It looks like Stealthy would stack with Skill Focus: Stealth.

I'm taking the Sacred Tattoo instead of the bite, coupled with the Fate's Favored trait that's a +2 to fort,reflex,will saves which is too good to pass up.

Keen Scent looks interesting for sure. I could take Keen Scent instead of Improved Initiative at 9th level, or just scratch Tribal Scars all together and take Keen Scent at 9th level (while keeping Imp Initiative) at 9th lvl.

As a ninja you want vanishing trick ASAP. its THE reason to be a ninja. If you're a ninja scout its really nice to charge, backstab, then vanish before they can keel you

I got Vanishing Tricks @ 4th level, until then I'll just use Ki for extra attacks but I really really want Wall Climber for the awesomeness of it.

I probably would not take improved initiative (probably not reactionary either).

Your whole goal it to be hidden all the time and attacking from stealth. So theoretically, you should always be starting the fight from stealth and vanishing back into it if needed.

I wouldn't feel a high init modifier was nearly as important in that case.

Tried Death from Above, but 1/2 or more of the GM's at my local PFS said they wouldn't let it fly since it requires a full round charge which falling or jumping is not. I originally was going Wall Climber, Acrobatics Master, and High Jumper to really work Death from Above but it turned out to be a no go due to table variance with GM's at my local PFS area so I had to scratch it...

Drat. I can understand it, but I would have allowed it.

I probably would not take improved initiative (probably not reactionary either).

Your whole goal it to be hidden all the time and attacking from stealth. So theoretically, you should always be starting the fight from stealth and vanishing back into it if needed.

I wouldn't feel a high init modifier was nearly as important in that case.

Kyoko Hitomu wrote:

Tried Death from Above, but 1/2 or more of the GM's at my local PFS said they wouldn't let it fly since it requires a full round charge which falling or jumping is not. I originally was going Wall Climber, Acrobatics Master, and High Jumper to really work Death from Above but it turned out to be a no go due to table variance with GM's at my local PFS area so I had to scratch it...

Drat. I can understand it, but I would have allowed it.

Well PFS doesn't always let you start in stealth as quite a few encounters are surprises. Going first allows free Sneak Attacks against anyone that hasn't went also since they're flatfooted. I could see taking Armor Expert maybe and picking up something a little better than Mithral Chain Shirt later on but not much else that really stands out as that great imo.

I would probably go with katana since you may want to use your other hand for a wand, potion, or climbing. But it can be argued either way.

Great catch on that, the katana does allow me to keep a hand free for a wand or rod while still being able to effectively use it.

tribal scars is a first lvl kind of thing so you survive.

Also don't forget to slot a ioun stone in your wayfinder that lets you survive without food/water... free pro evil effect for mind stuff is amazing.

Since I'll be using a Katana over a Falchion I think maybe I should grab the alternate racial trait "Chain Fighter" to gain proficiency with Flails and Heavy Flails for a better bludgeoning weapon? Looks like Beastmaster and City Raised wouldn't really benefit me as much even though they give a small boost in a skill.

I found a very nice trait in Ultimate Campaign which I think will synergize quite well with the Wall Climber trick. -

Any suggestions for a decent lvl 9 feat? My wis is a bit low for the requirement of Keen Scent feat. Tribal Scars won't help out much by 9th level either.

I have to take Skill Focus: Stealth at 1st level or I'll have to delay Dampen Prescence which I'll probably want that as soon as possible to allow Stealth & Invisibility to have a greater effect of keeping me hidden. The scent issue can easily be fixed with a wand of Negate Aroma.

You probably wouldn't need Acrobat since you're gaining a climb speed (which gives you a +8 racial bonus to climb and there is no 'accelerated climb' you can just double move and climb 40ft a round). I've played ninja's with climb speeds before and it's proven so useful time and time again.

A feat you might want to look at is Hellcat Stealth which would let you stealth anywhere, anytime, no matter what. Also, if you decide to focus more on stealth, the Fast Stealth ninja trick is highly recommended. I also highly recommend the Offensive Defensive rogue talent, which will help you stay alive after you get sneak attack and are no longer invisible.

Another thing to possibly look at is Improved Critical (Katana) once you qualify, though that would be at the end of your career.

Accelerated Climbing: You try to climb more quickly than normal. By accepting a –5 penalty, you can move half your speed (instead of one-quarter your speed)............

Special: You can use a rope to haul a character upward (or lower a character) through sheer strength. You can lift double your maximum load in this manner.

A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

If you have the Athletic feat, you get a bonus on Climb checks (see Feats).

I don't see why I wouldn't want to take Acrobat, this allows me to climb as fast as my land speed, 30ft, since double my climb speed of 20ft would be higher. Instead of taking a -5 penalty to climbing I'd be taking a -2 in this case. If I chose to double move like you mentioned I'd be climbing 60ft where you'd only be climbing 40ft.

A feat you might want to look at is Hellcat Stealth which would let you stealth anywhere, anytime, no matter what. Also, if you decide to focus more on stealth, the Fast Stealth ninja trick is highly recommended. I also highly recommend the Offensive Defensive rogue talent, which will help you stay alive after you get sneak attack and are no longer invisible.

Another thing to possibly look at is Improved Critical (Katana) once you qualify, though that would be at the end of your career.

I like the Hellcat Stealth suggestion as I'm already grabbing Skill Focus: Stealth. Big question is should I get Dampen Presence or Hellcat Stealth at level 7? Whichever one I don't take I'll have to grab at 9th level though. (I'm already using my Combat Trick to grab Spring Attack at 6th level.)

Atm my build is looking like this now.

I could scrap the Spring Attack feat chain idea and get Dampen Presence and Hellcat Stealth earlier. Maybe pick up Offensive Defense, but if I do that then when I charge in to deal some damage I'll be in full-attack range from the enemy if I don't kill him unless I use all my ki on Vanishing Trick afterwards (or I could just make sure I had Mirror Image up maybe.)

STR or DEX depends on your taste.
Personally, i favor DEX builds. More acrobatics and higher AC on a d8 class is always good.
There are several opportunities to fight:
-ranged SA with shuriken and flurry of stars. Probably difficult with half-orcs.
-scimitar and dervish dance. Many people will meh, but still a good choice if you ask me and you have reliable damage from level 3 on.
-half-orc trait for whips. Awesome possibilities there.

Whip:
-Whip mastery feats. Quite a lot, but supercool.
-Combat expertise and gang-up. SA when two others threaten, from 15 feet away.
-if you go Shadow Dancer, go spring attack and whirlwind attack. Kiting just got a new meaning^^

Dampen presence and hellcat stealth are very good choices too.