GL's Giantslayer

Game Master Grandlounge

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Save the world from Giants.

I would like the start this at level three so we have some games at different levels. It, like most APs, has a bit of a slow start. This will also allow you to be a group at the start of the game and give some variety to builds. I find you can do things starting at level three that are much harder when starting at level 1.

PFS legal Paizo Material (You can us Archives of Nethys to figure out what is legal). All non-PFS material can be requested please DM me the request.

20pt buy no score higher than 18 after racial adjustments (I don't like including this but it is pretty necessary for balance in this AP).
2 traits (no drawbacks)
3000GP
Full hp and level 1 roll or average round after that.

Feat tax rules apply to PCs but not summons, animal companions, eidolons etc.

Fighters are a 3 + int skill point class (they have the feats to take cunning which I allow to be taking multiple time for different skills)

I have a solid handle on optimization if you tell me you want to use a bad archetype I may offer feats, tweaks or allow the use of a slightly overlapping archetype to bring it into parity with other players.

My only real rule for balance is 'don't be a jerk' leave people space to succeed. As such if you do optimize beyond the rest of the group I will DM you and ask that you make some build choices to bring you in line with the rest of the group, though the specifics will be up to you. I trust my players to make the game fun for everybody.


Male Human Expert 3

Hmmm, interesting... what about races that take boons to play as in PFS?

Grand Lodge

That falls in to not legal so you can ask with a general outline of a build and I may approve it.

Grand Lodge

I should add for those types of exception I will tend to ask questions like 'how does this race make the characters story more compelling' or 'how does that archetype better integrate with the story you are telling'. I'm a big fan of using mechanics to facilitate better role playing.

Example: For Victor who I want to be a schemer it make more sense for him to study people then bring down divine judgment. He is careful he scrutinizes, and he is quiet so righteous judgment did not feel right. I like animal companions and familiars because they give players a social interaction they can control to show compassion, argumentativeness, teamwork compromise.


Male Human Nerd 11

Going for a cleric...

Grand Lodge

Nice cleric are really valuable in this AP. I have also recently gotten back into building clerics.


Male Human Nerd 11

I will go for the archer, with Erastil as God. It should have a bonus with the Feat Tax Rules.


Male Human Expert 3

Not really sure what I want to build yet, other than *not* an arcane spellcaster given that I'm doing a sorcerer and a wizard in the other two games. XD Just wanted to know what the options might be.


Are we using background skills?

@GM: I'm considering building a Half-orc Goliath Druid (probably with no animal companion). My goal is to ultimately wild shape into a Troll while having Deathless Master and be a large, annoyingly durable damage dealer. Fight giant with giant I guess :) would it be okay?


Male Human Expert 3

Debating about maybe doing a catfolk, either a Bloodrager using the Prowler at World's End archetype, a monk using the Nimble Guardian archetype, a rogue using the Counterfeit Mage archetype, or possibly a slayer using the Guerrilla archetype. It kind of depends on what the rest of the party goes for.

Sovereign Court

I can build an arcane caster, since that seems like the biggest gap so far. I'll probably want to go non-caster in the next one, though.

Grand Lodge

The Archlich wrote:

Are we using background skills?

@GM: I'm considering building a Half-orc Goliath Druid (probably with no animal companion). My goal is to ultimately wild shape into a Troll while having Deathless Master and be a large, annoyingly durable damage dealer. Fight giant with giant I guess :) would it be okay?

I have a dwarf goliath druid in the game I'm playing in and I play one in reign of winter. It sounds great to me.

Grand Lodge

Almonihah wrote:
Debating about maybe doing a catfolk, either a Bloodrager using the Prowler at World's End archetype, a monk using the Nimble Guardian archetype, a rogue using the Counterfeit Mage archetype, or possibly a slayer using the Guerrilla archetype. It kind of depends on what the rest of the party goes for.

All of these seem like good bases for a character. There are areas where rogues can have a little trouble if they don't invest in HP. Giants can crit big so I recommend building with balanced stats but ultimately it is up to you.

Grand Lodge

GM Granta wrote:
I can build an arcane caster, since that seems like the biggest gap so far. I'll probably want to go non-caster in the next one, though.

I have a druid and an inquisitor so far in our set of games, I was looking at arcane caster for one of the next two games. Folks in my local PFS group are playing through Giant Slayer and have been fine without an arcane caster so it is not necessary if you really have you heart set on something else. This is one of the more forgiving APs with regard to group dynamics.


Male Human Expert 3

How do you feel about easing the requirement on monks to be lawful? I have an idea for the Nimble Guardian build, but the story works best with my character being something of an outcast and a renegade that doesn't fit well with a lawful alignment.

If you'd rather maintain the lawful alignment requirement, I'm sure I can come up with another backstory idea, but I am leaning heaviest towards the Nimble Guardian build.

I'm probably going to have to struggle to deal with how MAD a Nimble Guardian monk build is, too, especially with Catfolk having a Wis penalty.

Grand Lodge

How important is being unarmored? If you want a melee character that fights with there fists brawlers, several fighter archetypes, fit the bill better and armor will make you way less mad. Remember that with feat tax rules you get weapon finesse for free which includes agile maneuvers built in and UAS and improved grapple being combined these two changes fix most of the Mad issues. These would be my suggestions as the rules already account for non-uawful hand to hand fighters.

Like I said I will ask questions.

How does being a catfolk make the story of being outcast and a renegade in the world of Golarion better and how does it get you from there to being on a jouryey in the Holds of Belkzin?

Next, how does an archetype dedicated to monk's causes and protection of others make a better outcast renegade?

"Some catfolk monks dedicate their graceful prowess to the defense of others, especially those dedicated to a similar ethos or who prove themselves as stalwart allies of the monk’s cause. A nimble guardian has the following class features."

Remember that monks do not lose abilities when changing alignment they just can take any more monk level. Though you could be a sin monk still. So you could be monk 1 with some other class. This would fit a renegade outsider better if the left the monastery.

Sovereign Court

Grandlounge wrote:
Folks in my local PFS group are playing through Giant Slayer and have been fine without an arcane caster so it is not necessary if you really have you heart set on something else.

Variety is the only thing my heart is set on. I'm happy to play the arcane here, but after two full casters, I would prefer to mix it up with a martial next.

Grand Lodge

Then I would encourage you to go ahead and build. I just want to make it clear that 'roles' can be pretty lose in giantslayer.


Male Human Expert 3
Grandlounge wrote:

How important is being unarmored? If you want a melee character that fights with there fists brawlers, several fighter archetypes, fit the bill better and armor will make you way less mad. Remember that with feat tax rules you get weapon finesse for free which includes agile maneuvers built in and UAS and improved grapple being combined these two changes fix most of the Mad issues. These would be my suggestions as the rules already account for non-uawful hand to hand fighters.

Like I said I will ask questions.

How does being a catfolk make the story of being outcast and a renegade in the world of Golarion better and how does it get you from there to being on a jouryey in the Holds of Belkzin?

Next, how does an archetype dedicated to monk's causes and protection of others make a better outcast renegade?

"Some catfolk monks dedicate their graceful prowess to the defense of others, especially those dedicated to a similar ethos or who prove themselves as stalwart allies of the monk’s cause. A nimble guardian has the following class features."

Remember that monks do not lose abilities when changing alignment they just can take any more monk level. Though you could be a sin monk still. So you could be monk 1 with some other class. This would fit a renegade outsider better if the left the monastery.

I'm specifically intersted in the archetype, and in particular the 7th-level ability, so taking a different class or only a couple of levels of monk is a no-go. (What can I say? I like shapeshifters.)

I'm still debating on the specifics of backstory, which is why I was asking about possiblities, so I'd know which way to go in building a backstory. My vague idea is for someone who's kind of personally committed to the ideal of defending others and their ideals and has great self-discipline (the monk/nimble guardian part), but the ideals she wants to defend are those of freedom, individuality, and independence (the chaotic part that would probably end up getting her kicked out of a monastery, and which would attract her to defending Trunau).

That said this is all preliminary, little more than beginnings of ideas, so this all might change if I don't feel like this is coming together or if I get a better idea.

Sovereign Court

There is at least one archetype that changes the alignment requirement. No idea whether it will fit the rest of your idea, though.

Grand Lodge

Nothing is set in stone you can still change any aspect you like.

Grand Lodge

If you like shapshifting there are vigilantes, skalds, hunters that do it amazingly well that seem to fit the concept better. They also get it a lower levels.

Sovereign Court

GM_Grandlounge wrote:
2 traits (no drawbacks)

Does one have to be a campaign trait?

GM_Grandlounge wrote:
Full hp and level 1 roll or average round after that.

Meaning take the better of roll or the average?

GM_Grandlounge wrote:
Fighters are a 3 + int skill point class (they have the feats to take cunning which I allow to be taking multiple time for different skills)

I'm not sure what you're referring to?

Grand Lodge

You can have any two traits. I would encourage people to consider the campaign traits.

Things you should not write out on phone keyboards.

Full hit die at level 1. After that you take the average rounded up or roll. You have to choose one or the other each level.

Fighters get an extra skill point per level. If they want to be more skilled they can use their feats to take the Cunning feat. Feats can't be taken multiple times but I'm allowing this one to be. With feat tax rules a fighter should be able to take lots of non combat feats. Cunning can be found on AoN.

Sovereign Court

Grandlounge wrote:
Full hit die at level 1. After that you take the average rounded up or roll. You have to choose one or the other each level.

So as a sorcerer, I can choose to get 4 hp every level? I'll do that then, not going to bother rolling at all.

Grand Lodge

That is correct. Taking the average round up is the most common hp method as far as I can tell as it prevents dead characters from a few unlucky rolls.


Male Human Expert 3
Grandlounge wrote:
If you like shapshifting there are vigilantes, skalds, hunters that do it amazingly well that seem to fit the concept better. They also get it a lower levels.

I have looked at the vigilante and hunter variants that get shapeshifting in the past. They just didn't occur to me right off for this campaign for whatever reason. I probably will let go of the nimble guardian idea, as it doesn't seem like it was going to come together well enough. I'll play around with some ideas and see if anything else strikes me.

Grand Lodge

I'm open to it if you have your heart set on it. I just need the story to get a catfolk up to Belkzen and a good reason to change the monk requirements that make the devote protection archetype work with the alignment and personality.


Male Human Expert 3

Eh, I wasn't that set on it.

Grand Lodge

Ok. We will find something that you are happy playing.


Male Human Nerd 11

My first draft for my cleric archer...
Effa Earconbert
Any recommendations?
Note: His second trait is Orphaned by Giants, I put Absalom Bouncer just to "fill up" the space...

Grand Lodge

Good loadout. Feats look good. Plan for the animal companion? This is just for my curiosity.


Male Human Nerd 11

Not really, would love to change it to another thing... I was thinking in a hawk, to keep the "feathers" theme...

Grand Lodge

Erastil is a nature Diety I will allow the animal domains. That is within the rules. Take eagle in place of feather it's more archer themed anyway.


Male Human Nerd 11

Excellent, thanks


Male Human Expert 3

Playing around with a few different builds, I'm leaning towards a rogue build now, actually. More details when I decide on them. XD

Sovereign Court

I might switch to a bloodrager. Researching an idea . . .

Grand Lodge

Bloodragers are great versatile frontliners.


I will be a little slow on the next couple weeks as I'm moving from WA to FL. I'll access the forums on my phone, but I should only truly be back in full by mid January. Cheers :)

Sovereign Court

I'm thinking about a dwarven barbarian (titan mauler) or bloodrager, and trying to compare several variables, one of which needs a GM ruling.

Titan Mauler wrote:
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.

It looks like I could wield a Large greataxe with a -6 penalty, but I'm hoping to wield a Huge dwarven waraxe with a -8 penalty. Would you consider a Huge dwarven waraxe (one-handed with weapon familiarity) a Large two-handed weapon for this ability?

If it helps, the base comparison is 3d6 damage at -6 attack or 3d8 damage at -8 attack.


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Yep, that looks fine to me. It would weight 32lbs which should not be an issue if your building for strength and cost a 120gp.

Sovereign Court

GM_Grandlounge wrote:
It would weight 32lbs which should not be an issue if your building for strength and cost a 120gp.

I'm actually thinking about not building for strength, but dwarves are good at hauling around lots of stuff.

Years ago, I had an idea to Vital Strike with massive weapons, but couldn't make it work. One of the campaign traits in Giantslayer is perfect for that idea though, so I'm re-considering it. The catch is that only the weapon's dice are multiplied, so things like a Strength bonus and Power Attack don't get full effect.

His damage probably won't keep pace with a traditional barbarian, but he'll have more skills or higher AC instead. Odd builds like that are to me what unusual races are to Almonihah.


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I down with it, it looks like fun. I have a super smart barbarian in an other game, sorcerers and wizards that tank, cleric thiefs, I love bending class roles.

Sovereign Court

GM_Grandlounge wrote:
sorcerers and wizards that tank

The other thing I'm considering is an eldritch knight in heavy armor.


Male Human Expert 3
GM Granta wrote:
Odd builds like that are to me what unusual races are to Almonihah.

I am kind of obvious about that, aren't I? :D

I think I'm feeling good about this catfolk rogue build. I have a backstory in mind that should answer the questions about why, I'll get to work on actually writing it down.

Sovereign Court

#1 I'm looking through the dwarven weapons, and noticed that several don't have weapon groups listed. With the feat tax changes, it would help to know where each goes.

boulder helmet
dorn-dergar
double waraxe
longaxe
longhammer
maul axe
war-shield

#2 If I take the archetype that allows me to use Large two-handed weapons, would using a Large reach weapon give me 10 or 15 ft. reach?

#3 How do the feat tax rules affect bonus feat lists? What if I want something like Point Blank Shot?


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1) Paizo blog has you covered. https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5li4u?Weapon-TrainingAnd-So-Many-W eapons

As does nethys (for most of them).
https://aonprd.com/FighterWeapons.aspx

If anything is not covered ask specifically.

2) No, because or how reach works. "Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach" There are rules for creating unique weapons if you want we can make something like a Dwarven weight spear if you want 15ft reach.

3) They don't. If you want a feat, take it. If you want a replacement feat from the feat tax rules, take that. Just make clear on your character sheet which one you have chosen

Sovereign Court

The weapons I listed were all ones without a group on AoN, but it looks like the blog post has most. Thanks!


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https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/weapons/#Creating_New_Weapons

Weapon creation rules.


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The Archlich wrote:

Are we using background skills?

@GM: I'm considering building a Half-orc Goliath Druid (probably with no animal companion). My goal is to ultimately wild shape into a Troll while having Deathless Master and be a large, annoyingly durable damage dealer. Fight giant with giant I guess :) would it be okay?

Missed the first part. Yes to background skills. Hope the move is going well.

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