GM Granta's WftC

Game Master Granta

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Sovereign Court

Once everyone has ninja-dotted in Gameplay, we can get started.

Please do not post in Recruitment at all, I like to keep that as a reference area so that you can search it easily.


Do we start at first level?

I need to read the players guide to better understand the campaign. Are we a true party of adventurers in it?

Sovereign Court

Character creation guidelines, some campaign background, and random personal rules interpretations are in the Recruitment thread. A lot of answers will be found there, as well as a link to the player's guide.

Yes, you start at first level; and no, you aren't traditional adventurers. The PCs start out as strangers and new members of Martella Lotheed's spy network.


Male Human Expert 3

Hmmm, interesting restrictions. I guess I won't be playing a shapeshifting kitsune infiltrator. :D

I'll have to look things over and see what I'm inclined to play. Anyone else have thoughts yet?

Oh, and full disclosure, I have read the first module of this campaign because I was going to run it (and still may run it at some point, the friend who's interested got busy and ended up not having time for it but may in the future).

Grand Lodge

How does the inquisitor or bloodrager work with core only spells? Does that mean only spells in the core rulebook or only the spells on their initial spell list because their spell list were not designed with core only spells in mind.

Sovereign Court

Almonihah wrote:
Hmmm, interesting restrictions.

For each fundamental character type, there are two options. Full-BAB non-caster (barbarian, fighter), 3/4-BAB non-caster (monk, rogue), full arcane caster (sorcerer, wizard), full divine caster (cleric, oracle), 2/3 caster (bard, inquisitor), Full-BAB 1/2 caster (bloodrager, ranger).

Druids and paladins were replaced because they would have too many difficulties in this campaign, especially the paladin. Spies need to and should care more about just getting the job done, than about law and morality.

Almonihah wrote:
I guess I won't be playing a shapeshifting kitsune infiltrator. :D

Not a chance in hell. That is perhaps the most broken combination of cheese in 1e, and would completely wreck such a social campaign! :-Þ

I want to say I've seen a kitsune's Disguise modifier break +40 at level 5, or something like that. Can you imagine a wife needing several weeks living with a kitsune to realize it's not actually her husband?!

Almonihah wrote:
Oh, and full disclosure, I have read the first module of this campaign because I was going to run it (and still may run it at some point, the friend who's interested got busy and ended up not having time for it but may in the future).

No worries. There's always somebody who is familiar with a story, that's just life.

Sovereign Court

Grandlounge wrote:
How does the inquisitor or bloodrager work with core only spells? Does that mean only spells in the core rulebook or only the spells on their initial spell list because their spell list were not designed with core only spells in mind.

Non-CRB spells require permission, but 99% sure every spell on their initial lists would get approved.

In general, most stuff will get approved. In my other game, between all the requests of five players, I think one option was denied.

Grand Lodge

Ok! Sounds good.


Surprised the vigilante didn’t make the cut, since it looks tailored for it, but I still see a lot of cool options and as i read the players guide my mind races with the possibilities :)

Sovereign Court

The Archlich wrote:
Surprised the vigilante didn’t make the cut, since it looks tailored for it

You're exactly right, this AP seems written to boost sales of Ultimate Intrigue, which unfortunately means a vigilante would overshadow the other PCs.


Yeah I understand! I imagine a party of five vigilantes would be able to do the mod probably.

Grand Lodge

Hrmmm. Got my eye on an inquisitor seems like a fun option for the AP.


Male Human Expert 3

Oh, speaking of Ultimate Intrigue, are we using any of the subsystems from it? Social conflicts, influence, those sorts of things?

I've got a bunch of vague ideas but nothing that really jumps out at me yet. I think I'll wait and see what others want to play and fill in some gaps.

Sovereign Court

Almonihah wrote:
Oh, speaking of Ultimate Intrigue, are we using any of the subsystems from it? Social conflicts, influence, those sorts of things?

For the most part, the AP uses a simplified version of the new social mechanics.

And please ninja dot Gameplay, so that you get notifications.


I’m considering a monk (unchained if allowed?) combining sage counselor and scaled fist. I don’t know, still thinking. :)


Male Human Nerd 11

I think I will make a Cleric/Face

Sovereign Court

Core only for monk and rogue. Sage counselor or scaled fist would be okay. They both modify the monk's bonus feats though, so those archetypes can't be combined.


Male Human Expert 3

I think an idea's starting to form. No one's mentioned being an arcane spellcaster again, so I may go for a wizard. In particular, though, since we start with a Story feat, I'm looking at Forgotten Past--waking up with no memory of the past decade and an invitation to go meet with Lady Lotheed sounds like an interesting way to start off the campaign. :D

Also thinking of a familiar for my arcane bond if I go with this idea. Do you usually have PC's play their familiars or do you treat them a bit more like NPC's?


GM Granta wrote:
Core only for monk and rogue. Sage counselor or scaled fist would be okay. They both modify the monk's bonus feats though, so those archetypes can't be combined.

Scaled Fist modifies the list (adding some more options), while Sage Counselor just plain removes the feats . It was my understanding they could be used together. I’ll modify accordingly. Thanks!

Sovereign Court

The Archlich wrote:
Scaled Fist modifies the list (adding some more options), while Sage Counselor just plain removes the feats .
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.


Yeah, I get that. I just think they're messing with "different" features (one is altering the list of possible feats, while the other is removing the feats). Regardless, I will go a different route - monk is already MAD, sage counselor without scaled fist is just impossible-to-work MAD (especially not unchained). On this topic, by the way, rogue without unchained is probably plain terrible (I'd suggest reconsidering unchained at least for rogue and keep it core for barbarian and monk, that don't suffer as much, even though I don't plan on going rogue).

Sovereign Court

Almonihah wrote:
I'm looking at Forgotten Past--waking up with no memory of the past decade and an invitation to go meet with Lady Lotheed sounds like an interesting way to start off the campaign. :D

That would be a LOT of fun for me, and equally dangerous for you. Are you sure you want the GM controlling your past?

Almonihah wrote:
Also thinking of a familiar for my arcane bond if I go with this idea. Do you usually have PC's play their familiars or do you treat them a bit more like NPC's?

Familiars, cohorts, etc. should have their own alias and be role-played just as seriously as the PC. If players treat them like NPCs, then I will too.

If you are planning to be within one step of lawful neutral, there will be an interesting option for an improved familiar somewhere in book one.


Male Human Expert 3
GM Granta wrote:
That would be a LOT of fun for me, and equally dangerous for you. Are you sure you want the GM controlling your past?

I like my characters to surprise me sometimes! I'm figuring I'll still be able to specify some details about my past--I'm thinking of being a Noble Scion, because it'll be fun to not remember why my character is estranged from his noble parents. But yes, the stark terror of what secrets you might have waiting for him will be part of the fun. :D Basically I'm thinking he remembers up to about his 20th birthday, and he's in his early thirties now--so the last decade or so of his life are a blank to him.

GM Granta wrote:

Familiars, cohorts, etc. should have their own alias and be role-played just as seriously as the PC. If players treat them like NPCs, then I will too.

If you are planning to be within one step of lawful neutral, there will be an interesting option for an improved familiar somewhere in book one.

Ah, excellent! How would you feel about the egotist familiar archetype then? I'm debating on just what type of familiar he'd have--I was thinking raven since that would give him a speaking familiar from level 1, but I've done a raven before, so I may do something else.

I like the idea of improved familiars except for the fact that you have to trade your familiar out. I enjoy making familiars their own characters too much to up and decide to change familiars just because my spellcaster is powerful enough to get a different one now.

That reminds me, is the evolved familiar feat okay? I'm planning on using it exclusively for the Basic Magic and Skilled evolutions.

Sovereign Court

Almonihah wrote:
I'm figuring I'll still be able to specify some details about my past--I'm thinking of being a Noble Scion, because it'll be fun to not remember why my character is estranged from his noble parents. But yes, the stark terror of what secrets you might have waiting for him will be part of the fun. :D Basically I'm thinking he remembers up to about his 20th birthday, and he's in his early thirties now--so the last decade or so of his life are a blank to him.

Missing your 20s would certainly be enough memory loss for the prerequisite, and anything that I write will fit in with whatever choices you've already made. My goal will be to make you improv something embarrassingly funny, not to change anything about your character's mechanics or personality.

Almonihah wrote:
Ah, excellent! How would you feel about the egotist familiar archetype then?

That sounds like a lot of fun! Go for it.

Almonihah wrote:
That reminds me, is the evolved familiar feat okay? I'm planning on using it exclusively for the Basic Magic and Skilled evolutions.

Basic Magic is fine. Skilled is most likely okay, but would depend on the particular skill and what else you are going to stack with it. For example, if you are planning to alter self the familiar into a humanoid and then bust out +30 to Disguise at level 3, the answer will be no. In contrast, I would allow it with Use Magic Device, because that requires you to spend a lot of money on consumables. That said, I think UMD requires an improved familiar, but can't remember for sure.

Grand Lodge

GM I thinking of make a creepy Vizier/Adviser to a noble working toward adviser to the princess and taldor as a whole. I think Grima Wormtongue mixed with Varys.

I had a question about nation builder story feat.

The goal includes claiming land in the name of a leader. Would it be acceptable for that to also include the land in prerequisites?

Also, wound these land sizes be at all appropriate to campaign?

Sovereign Court

Nation Builder won't work for this campaign. Taldor is thousands of years old and has been shrinking for hundreds of years; not only is there no unclaimed land left, there's problems with multiple claims on the same land. Plus, the entire adventure occurs within Taldor's borders, so it's not like you could steal land from Andoran or Qadira.

Re: becoming the Princess' advisor
That goal would make more sense if it developed during play. At the start, you have no (known) connection to Princess Eutropia. While you do work for her, your characters won't actually learn that for a long time.

Grand Lodge

Cool. Thanks. The goal will start much more inline with wanting to be adjacent to power regardless of the specifics of who or what type.


Male Human Expert 3

I'm not sure on whether or not animal familiars can use UMD--that's something I might look into later. Right now I was going to get some Perception. Later I might look at Stealth, if I decide to spend another feat on it.

Unfortunately as I looked through the list of familiar possibilities I discovered that most animals have terrible Charisma (oddly enough chickens have a Charisma of 13 while weasels--I'm thinking of a ferret familiar now--have a Charisma of 5), meaning both that Basic Magic is out of reach (it takes a Charisma of 10, which none of the options I'm interested in have) and that UMD would be hard to train for.


Human Wizard 1 | HP 8/8 | AC: 11 T: 11 Fl: 10 | CMB: +0 CMD: 11 | F +2 R +1 W +2 | Init +1 | Perc: +2

Okay, first draft of my character. Backstory still to come, and I'll make an alias for my familiar when I think I'm done tweaking things.

Sovereign Court

Leontius Vernisant wrote:
Okay, first draft of my character. Backstory still to come, and I'll make an alias for my familiar when I think I'm done tweaking things.
  • Which ability score are you using the arcane school power on? Maybe show the permanent ability scores in the corresponding windows, and the effective scores in the profile.
  • There's an extra BB tag in Ictil's skills.
  • How about making one quiver of bolts cold iron and another alchemical silver?

  • Grand Lodge

    Here is a first draft of:

    VICTOR GRIM:

    Male Human Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer-Narriseminer) 1
    N Medium humanoid (human)
    Init +4; Senses Perception +7

    DEFENSE
    AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)
    hp 10 (1d8+2)
    Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5

    OFFENSE
    Speed 20 ft.
    Melee longspear (two handed) +3 ((two handed) 1d8+4/x3)
    Ranged sling +2 (1d4+3)

    Melee wooden stake +3 (1d4+3)
    Ranged wooden stake (thrown) +2 (1d4+3)
    Space 5ft. by 5ft.; Reach 5 ft.
    Special Attacks stern gaze

    Known Inquisitor Spells (CL 1st, concentration +4):
    1st (2/day)—divine favor, shield of faith
    0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, light, read magic

    STATISTICS
    Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
    Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 15

    Feats: Combat Reflexes

    Skills Acrobatics -1 , Acrobatics (When Jumping) -5 , Climb +0 , Escape Artist -1 , Fly -1 , Intimidate -1 , Knowledge (Arcana) +5 , Knowledge (Arcana) (ID monster) +8 , Knowledge (Local) +7 , Knowledge (Local) (ID monster) +10 , Knowledge (Nature) +5 , Knowledge (Nature) (ID monster) +8 , Knowledge (Planes) +5 , Knowledge (Planes) (ID monster) +8 , Knowledge (Religion) +5 , Knowledge (Religion) (ID monster) +8 , Perception +7 , Ride -1 , Sense Motive +8 , Stealth -1 , Swim +0

    Traits Fate's Favored, Reactionary, Young Reformer, Paranoid

    Languages Celestial, Common
    SQ dual talent, monster lore, studied target, studied target

    Gear candle, kikko armor, longspear, sling, wooden stake, scholar's outfit, sling bullets (10), inkpen, inquisitor's kit, journal, earplugs, smoked goggles, ear trumpet, masterwork tool - book of contacts, chalk, twine (50 ft.)

    SPECIAL ABILITIES
    Domains Madness

    Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.

    Fate's Favored The fates watch over you. Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.

    Language Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

    Monster Lore (Ex) The inquisitor adds her Wisdom modifier on Knowledge skill checks in addition to her Intelligence modifier, when making skill checks to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures.

    Paranoid You believe that someone or something is always out to get you, so you have a hard time truly trusting anyone. Anyone who attempts an aid another action of any type to assist you must succeed at a DC 15 check instead of the normal DC 10 check.

    Reactionary You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.

    Stern Gaze (Ex) Inquisitors are skilled at sensing deception and intimidating their foes. An inquisitor receives a +1 morale bonus on all Intimidate and Sense Motive checks.

    Studied Target (Ex) A slayer can study an opponent to gain a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, and Sense Motive; a +2 bonus on Perception, and Survival checks attempted against that opponent; and a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 2. A slayer can only maintain these bonuses against 2 opponents at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target. If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll). The slayer may discard this connection to a studied target as a free action, allowing him to study another target in its place.

    Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to ½ your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

    General Background Idea:

    Victor is a former criminal that got 'out of life' leveraging his contacts and his knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the people in the city. He feels a calling to help someone ascend to power though he does not know who or when. This builds on both this Young Reformer trait (access to contacts to help him) and diety Narriseminer The Crownless, the Maker of Kings.

    As for story feats I was thinking ELDRITCH RESEARCHER to create a spell that helps him gather information on people or turn that information into help for his allies. This one would be more fun and I think more thematic with the build, but requires more work.

    The backup option would be NEMESIS. Someone from Victor's past hates him.

    Build Notes:

    I did take some pretty strong traits though storywise I think they fit a smart weasley looking kid from a bad neighbourhood who has been given divine powers. My general feelings on strong opinions in pathfinder are that strong options are fine when not used to cheese a character but to round them out. Here I have tried to use them to balance out the fact that I took a debuff domain to support the casters in the group opposed to a melee-focused domain; that as a knowledge-based melee character with combat reflexes so I require every stat but Cha. I hope that rationale makes sense; and the fact that the skill I build around knowledge local is one non-class skill knowledge skill for the inquisitor.

    Sovereign Court

  • Sanctified Slayer and Narriseminer are approved, but fair warning: the next time you don't ask first, the answer will be no.
  • Keep in mind that kikko armor is not common in Taldor, it will stand out. As a former criminal and current spy, are you comfortable with that attention?
  • What is the book of contacts?
  • Eldritch Researcher would be okay later in the game, once you've met the prerequisite. If you do want to go that route though, we should talk about it first. I don't like the standard rules for spell research, but haven't actually sat down yet and figured out what we would use instead.

  • Grand Lodge

    My apologies. It was called a 'first draft' for the exact reason that their were things conditional on approval otherwise it would have been character or submission. I'm not going to try an pull one over on you so mutual trust would make things go soother. I even went so far as to call attention to thing that feel within the inclusion criteria that a GM may find problematic. Seem silly to try and trick someone by submitting weeks early. If something is in a build, purchased or include in a level up draft I'm submitting it for approval and anything else is an inadvertent omission. This is the only game I have played in that allow a mix of parts of books so it's easy to error. That said I will make anything outside of the material's clearer in the future.

    Book of contacts is a masterwork tool for knowledge local.

    I guess it depends on what the mechanic is for wear exotic armor. I hear gms have house rules or have RP consequences for this. How will wearing foreign armor compare to wearing say a fullplate that costs many years salary, a magic headband, being 6ft 6, another unique items or just being really ugly? I have found adventurers become pretty notable pretty early without a disguise.

    Sovereign Court

    The masterwork tool for Knowledge (local) is okay, but would weigh 5 lbs. and require at least 15 minutes of research to use. Any book with that much information in it is going to be very big and quite hard to memorize.

    Most of the NPCs you meet will have seen somebody wearing full plate or a magic item; they will have seen somebody 6'6" before. You will probably be the first person they've ever seen wearing kikko armor.

    Consequences will vary with the situation. In a big city bar, it might get women to come up and flirt with you. In a small town, it might be an auto fail on Disguise checks.

    Sovereign Court

    Grandlounge wrote:
    This is the only game I have played in that allow a mix of parts of books so it's easy to error.

    If it helps, the old SRD is organized by book. I know most people prefer the Archives of Nethys or D20PFSRD, but I personally use the first site when source material matters.

    Grand Lodge

    You ok good to know. I will think about the armor. That is what I have been using. There are no other easy was to sort all the pathfinder information.

    Paizo basically has a masterwork tool for knowledge, pathfinder chronicle. Would you be willing to allow them?

    Also thanks for allowing the archetype and to God. I think the God fits the character really well and studying people in combat feels right.

    Sovereign Court

    I'm assuming you mean these? Those specific ones are fine, but keep in mind that they have significant usage requirements, too. If you wanted to create your own (apparently there are rules for that), each volume would be an independent decision.

    And that deity is perfect for this campaign.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Chronicle.

    I forget that there are a lot of items with reused names.

    Sovereign Court

    Grandlounge wrote:

    Pathfinder Chronicle.

    I forget that there are a lot of items with reused names.

    Never heard of that item before! That one is pretty close to the edge; I'll have to think about it.

    Grand Lodge

    Sounds good. Take your time. I use them as masterwork tools but technically they stack. I would continue with that personal rule so I would not be piling on circumstantial bonuses.


    Human Wizard 1 | HP 8/8 | AC: 11 T: 11 Fl: 10 | CMB: +0 CMD: 11 | F +2 R +1 W +2 | Init +1 | Perc: +2
    GM Granta wrote:
    Leontius Vernisant wrote:
    Okay, first draft of my character. Backstory still to come, and I'll make an alias for my familiar when I think I'm done tweaking things.
  • Which ability score are you using the arcane school power on? Maybe show the permanent ability scores in the corresponding windows, and the effective scores in the profile.
  • There's an extra BB tag in Ictil's skills.
  • How about making one quiver of bolts cold iron and another alchemical silver?
  • 1) Constitution. I'll make sure to make that clear when I clean things up.

    2) I'll fix that when I move him to his own alias.
    3) ...if you're suggesting that, then yeah, I'll do that.

    I am wondering if carrying a crossbow is going to be okay at the big event at the beginning, though.

    Sovereign Court

    Leontius Vernisant wrote:
    I am wondering if carrying a crossbow is going to be okay at the big event at the beginning, though.

    THANK YOU!

    I totally forgot to mention that, and it is something everyone needs to know. Adding some info to the Recruitment thread.

    @Grandlounge: The kikko armor won't work at character creation (see "Senate Rules" in Recruitment), though it could later on. I am also going to say that the Pathfinder chronicle is not available for purchase. However, you do have a chance to hob nob with the Pathfinder Society in book one. If you impress them, they might gift a single chronicle to you. Perhaps role-play your interest in a particular subject, such that they would know to gift something relevant.

    With regards to stacking circumstance bonuses: they do dot automatically stack like dodge bonuses. Bonuses from different circumstances stack, which leaves it up to the GM to decide what is the same or different. Personally, I would rule that those two sources are similar, but not the same. Mechanically, that means a percentile roll. 1-50 means only one has relevant info or both duplicate the same info: add just one bonus. 51-100 means they both contain info and it is different: add both bonuses.

    Grand Lodge

    I have found the simplest solution is just to not try to stack them in the first place but if I'm lucky enough ti get two I like the roll solution. It seems fun and fair.

    I have switched to scale mail but will have to go armorless in the Senate as breast plates are expensive at character creation. I will see if I can afford to pick up some light armor for such occasions.

    Grand Lodge

    GM would it be possible to take a profession in place of the extra craft or perform?

    Sovereign Court

    Grandlounge wrote:
    GM would it be possible to take a profession in place of the extra craft or perform?

    No, sorry.

    Grand Lodge

    Np. Thought it was worth asking.


    Male Human Nerd 11

    Changed my mind... will do a Bard, with archer abilities, as well as being the Face/Librarian of the group.

    Grand Lodge

    My understanding is you can't have too many skills in this AP.


    @Johnny: I'm building a bard too. Not that we will necessarily clash, of course :)


    Male Human Nerd 11
    The Archlich wrote:
    @Johnny: I'm building a bard too. Not that we will necessarily clash, of course :)

    :S

    I don't think we need a couple of bards at the same party...
    Will make a rogue then.
    About Unchained Rogues... are they valid, or only "vanilla" rogues?

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