I ask this because my GM is having us walk three days back to civilization to advance to level 6. In the actual, written rules of the game, how much time passes between gaining enough experience to advance to the next level and actually having the benefits of that new level? Should my party be lingering at level 6 experience levels and fighting random encounters as level 5 characters? It's really bugging me, but I can't find any proof one way or the other.
I don't have a specific rules citation but what I seem to remember from the core rules is that it had more of a suggestion then a rule. Something about at the next rest?
The way he's doing it might be the way he interpreted a line from the book, or it might just be the the way he thinks it should be.
No time. It just happens.
He is confused with old edition rules.
Basically, he made up some houserules.
Has he played older editions?
What editions has he played?
He started with second edition, so it might be a continuation from there. I can understand the verisimilitude consideration, but this particular scenario concerned me.
"Leveling up" Is not something your chars "do". It is something that happens on its own. If you give a close read it is assumed your chars are always training and such in "off camera time.".
A continuation of that same idea new abilities and spells and such do not just pop up in that lvl up moment. Your Char has been working and training on it for awhile. Then at the point of lvl up is when they are good enough at it to reliably use it where there back side is on the line. Because honestly who would use an ability they have not mastered when its life or death?
I just had a look to find the line I was remembering and I couldn't find it. Not in the PRD at least. Maybe I was remembering an older edition myself. I skipped from 2e to PF.
What I found instead was this
Advancing your Charachter
A character advances in level as soon as he earns enough experience points to do so—typically, this occurs at the end of a game session, when your GM hands out that session's experience point awards.
So yeah, what he's doing is a house rule I guess?
What is the problem with this house rule? Why do you care about encounter levels etc.?
Play the game ..
Go back to town and level up if you are not in hurry. This is maybe a bad idea if you must save the princess before she is sacrificed ..
Level up and get all the cool things/powers from your new level ..
OR
Go through the story, save the princess and level up later.
Decisions .. everywhere
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What is the problem with this house rule? Why do you care about encounter levels etc.?
Play the game ..
Go back to town and level up if you are not in hurry. This is maybe a bad idea if you must save the princess before she is sacrificed ..Level up and get all the cool things/powers from your new level ..
OR
Go through the story, save the princess and level up later.Decisions .. everywhere
Its a problem because of pacing. If you look at literally every single adventure path that paizo makes, they lay out where they expect you to level up. Most of the time its expected that you level several times during individual advnetures that are often time sensative.. If you had to return to town to train every 3 adventuring days or less it would kill the pacing of the adventure and the story. It also wouldnt make alot of sense. Do you know of a hero in an adventure story that had to go back to the academy to train for a while so he could improve?
Some of these are hold overs from 1st edition and such as has already been mentioned.
In AD&D we had to pay 1500gp times the level per week of training and training could take between one to four weeks. It was a bulky system and not very easy to accomplish at low levels when funds were short. It did mean that treasure was usually greater but that we had ways to spend it other than buying magic items (which really wasn't done very much in my early games).
We also had to pay a general "upkeep" per month to pay for room, board, weapon upkeep, etc. I didn't mind this as much as it meant that we did not have to pay for every little ale we drank and such. Unless we did something over the top, it was just considered part of upkeep.
Pathfinder, obviously, does not have these rules but a DM could make it be the case if he desired. So, houserule, not a core rule.
I don't think there was ever any hard-and-fast rule in ANY edition, that said you HAD to go get training to level up. It seems to my memory that it was always more of a suggestion. In any case, most of the time, with most DMs, we just leveled up. However, when you do come across a GM who insists on this, he often has played 2nd Edition, because that's just the way the culture of the game was going at the time.
I have some hilariously awful stories from our 2nd Edition days that point to exactly how bad this notion of having to go to town to get training to level up could go, in the wrong hands.
One short version is the time we were wandering between villages. One village would not let us in because they were afraid of some plague going around. We actually could not find the other village (I still am not sure why). At some point, after fighting countless trolls and hobgoblins and orcs, and even investigating a ruined keep and running away from the cultists there, every member of the party had accumulated more than enough XP to make the next level. But we ended up wandering back and forth, not being allowed into one village, and evidently somehow magically barred from even finding the other. This particular DM was very, very attached to the wandering monster table, which means we were constantly under attack. Which means we were constantly due more and more XP, but could never level up, because he insisted we get to town first.
I suppose if we COULD level up, we might finally pass whatever saving throw would help us to throw off whatever effect was causing us to miss the other town. But that's speculation. I don't think I'll ever know what that was about, or how deep the catch-22 went on that one.
I don't think there was never any hard-and-fast rule in ANY edition, that said you HAD to go get training to level up. It seems to my memory that it was always more of a suggestion.
Look in the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide page 86 under the heading "Gaining Experience Levels". Nothing there suggests that it was anything but a rule. The nature of AD&D meant that a DM could decide if he just did not want to enforce a rule, but it was there and it took almost a whole page of text right after the chart about awarding experience points. So I see it as a rule and not just a suggestion.
This brings back memories of my introduction to DnD, it was in either Baldur's gate or Icewind Dale. I for the life of me, thought the game was broken. When I reached a new level in XP, the bar just remained full :P
The game never really told me my characters needed to rest to level up, also the characters never got tired on my own as far as I can remember. Oh well.
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Its a problem because of pacing. If you look at literally every single adventure path that paizo makes, they lay out where they expect you to level up. Most of the time its expected that you level several times during individual advnetures that are often time sensative.. If you had to return to town to train every 3 adventuring days or less it would kill the pacing of the adventure and the story. It also wouldnt make alot of sense. Do you know of a hero in an adventure story that had to go back to the academy to train for a while so he could improve?
Really? Because I've read most of them and they generally have gaps of time right around the areas you would expect the players to level.
Do you level mid dungeon? "Guy's, that last goblin pushed me up to level 2! Hold on while I level!"
Rule of thumb is at least a good nights sleep. YMMV, but when something isn't spelled out, it's the GM's call.
I've tried leveling mid-dungeon without resting. The players are expected to bring in their sheet for the next level whenever they're close to leveling so it doesn't take much time to make the switch. They can gain new spells (I tried to master Fireball this morning but I think I might be able to pull it off now!) but any expended spell slots are gone until they rest. Same with ki etc. It seemed to work OK - no sillier then 'I went to sleep and when I woke up I suddenly got much better at disabling devices'.
Next step would be for PCs to level up mid-encounter. "As the dragon breathes on you, you suddenly experience a burst of resolve and gain new powers!" Very anime.
People getting better at things breaks my verisimilitude.
Next step would be for PCs to level up mid-encounter. "As the dragon breathes on you, you suddenly experience a burst of resolve and gain new powers!" Very anime.
Only if they get the training from hell that allows them to tap into their inner resolve and strength. Or a powerful weapon that gifts them the power to fight but only in times of great turmoil! You have to have build up after all.
People getting better at things breaks my verisimilitude.
People only get better at things when they sleep in a city with a population of at least 5000. This explains why poor commoners rarely get past level 1.
Personally I like it when you decide if you level or not at the end of a session to give people a chance to think things through or contact the GM about any changes you want to make. You just get better, you don't need to train or sleep for a particular period of time or at a particular place. I mean thats great roleplaying, but doing it 20 times would be long and painful and it doesn't sound like "Walk back to the city for 3 days" is a great story. I like giving bonuses when people go out of their way to do things however.
In PF, the training is presumed to have happened beforehand. All of levels 1-5 are training for level 6. Events just give the practical experience to crystallize the results of that training in your mind. So, once you gain the requisite experience (even in the midst of combat if you're tracking experience that closely), you automatically progress to the next level. That can lead to some interestingly heroic setups reminiscent of shounen manga where, after long and intense training-hell, the hero is struggling in a fight until he finally "levels up" and uncovers some new ability (a feat, stat bonus, class ability, etc) that helps him pull a bare win.
I agree with this interpretation. Leveling is not a matter of finding a trainer. It's a matter of self-improvement. GMs may be within their rights to insist that players make mention of working on some things ("I spend some time before bed fiddling with a spare lock I have handy" is a perfectly viable expectation for someone who wants to start learning Disable Device), but most things can be assumed off camera.
Its a problem because of pacing. If you look at literally every single adventure path that paizo makes, they lay out where they expect you to level up. Most of the time its expected that you level several times during individual advnetures that are often time sensative.. If you had to return to town to train every 3 adventuring days or less it would kill the pacing of the adventure and the story. It also wouldnt make alot of sense. Do you know of a hero in an adventure story that had to go back to the academy to train for a while so he could improve?Really? Because I've read most of them and they generally have gaps of time right around the areas you would expect the players to level.
Do you level mid dungeon? "Guy's, that last goblin pushed me up to level 2! Hold on while I level!"
Rule of thumb is at least a good nights sleep. YMMV, but when something isn't spelled out, it's the GM's call.
In my group we level between sessions when you should level up. Some of our dms still use xp some dont and just level at the appropriate times in adventures, in both cases it is the most recent end of session after the appropriate time whether it be story based or xp based.
In terms of the APs, many of the ones i have read indicate that you level mid dungeon, or in the midst of a series of encounters. I dont have my aps with me, but from memory at least each module had one of the suggested level ups in the middle of some set of encounters.
("I spend some time before bed fiddling with a spare lock I have handy" is a perfectly viable expectation for someone who wants to start learning Disable Device), but most things can be assumed off camera.
Theres a lot that happens off camera. Every day you spend at least an hour of prep if you have any casters. During this hour I've offered to have a ranger train with my warblade, studied an arcane thesis about the relations between divinity and arcane magic, and once had 3 players all doing excersises together. Theres a lot of hours in the day you could be attempting to push forwards yourself or your goals. The prep itself is a time you could consider training.
Its a problem because of pacing. If you look at literally every single adventure path that paizo makes, they lay out where they expect you to level up. Most of the time its expected that you level several times during individual advnetures that are often time sensative.. If you had to return to town to train every 3 adventuring days or less it would kill the pacing of the adventure and the story. It also wouldnt make alot of sense. Do you know of a hero in an adventure story that had to go back to the academy to train for a while so he could improve?
Kolokotroni hit the nail on the head. I'm in the second module of the Shattered Star Adventure Path. The module's text highly suggests to me that we don't go back to town until we're done with what we set out to do or have a serious problem. We have a decent bit of business to handle, so I'm not opposed for my current session, but I highly doubt that we're supposed to spend half a week walking to the dungeon, spend two days fighting things and solving problems, then walk half a week back to spend three weeks (!) training. My GM finds the idea of leveling in the middle of a dungeon lacking in verisimilitude, and I don't think the Adventure Path cares about that. Eventually I feel the module will punish us for leaving and we'll be fighting things two levels higher than we can manage because we won't be allowed to level up.
I'll try pointing out the downtime argument to see if I can get him to budge. To be honest, though, I put up this thread hoping for an actual printed rule I missed somewhere so I have a RAW point to offer. All I've found is the rule under Advancement in the Classes section that states that PCs level up as soon as they have enough XP to advance to the next level. Yet I'm stuck with a group of adventurers with enough XP to be 6th level fighting their way back to town using 5th level stats. >.<
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In my world, the only way to level up is to receive training from someone in your class whose level is higher than yours. Everyone starts out at first-level, and in the world's backstory there were no characters above first-level when the world was created. This means there has never been anyone in the history of the world to reach second level, and there never will be.
Look upon my verisimilitude ye mighty and despair.
Leveling up to 6th level takes place during the entirety of 5th level. As far as training goes, role-play the hell out of it if you like. Doing so couldn't hurt anything. I would not however allow DM forced training to inhibit the flow nor the fun of the game at hand.
I love you guys.
I guess it's good that you're not playing Skull & Shackles.
Be out on Sea, and might have to wait months to level.
Get back to port, then go up 3 levels.
Thar be verisimilitude me mateys!
Never underestimate the surge of power a good meal, some fine liquor, and a high class whore can give you.
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It happened to Gilligan.
Leveling up is a group-specific thing, just like the time at which XP is handed out. Hell, some groups don't even use experience points, and they generally seem to have fun (though I do like them for nostalgic reasons). It is the sort of thing the GM should mention before the game starts, though.