Let's take the arsenal chaplain.
I know that in PFS he can't take AWT but, RAW, can he?
Because the Arsenal Chaplain has this feature:
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 5th level, an arsenal chaplain gains weapon training as per the fighter class feature, but the benefits of this weapon training apply only to the his sacred weapons (weapons with which the warpriest has taken Weapon Focus).
And his warpriests levels counts as fighter levels for requisites
At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and Hit Dice) for the purpose of qualifying for these feats.
Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
So, apparently, he can.
But if you read the AWT feat, in the first special section, it says
Prerequisite(s): Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels
It's a limitation, right? Not a prerequisite. Warpriest count as fighter of his warpriest's level only for prerequisite, right?
So, in teory he can qualify for AWT feat because he has weapon training and at level 6 with his bonus feat he count as fighter 6, but he can't take this feat because he hasn't 5 fighter levels. I'm correct or I'm wrong?
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So, yes Arsenal Chaplain weapon training counts as the fighter weapon training class feature for purposes of advanced weapon training (though only for their sacred weapons).
Given that Warpriest levels count as Fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for feats I wouldn't quibble over whether that extends to the special line limitation or not. Other GMs may vary.
That said, you don't have to take the Advanced Weapon Training feat in order to get an AWT option. You can also do so by giving up the option to gain weapon training benefits for another weapon group at 9th level or later.
a chaplain can't take the option to swap groups for an AWT because they only get 1 group, Sacred weapons. Personally they should qualify for the feat using one of their fighter feats. PFS is taking a second look at perhaps allowing them to take the feat, but that could be anywhere from a week to month before they review this issue and decide to unban or keep banned.
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a chaplain can't take the option to swap groups for an AWT because they only get 1 group, Sacred weapons.
I'm not sure there is any way to make that work consistently.
Does that mean that they effectively have a special 'sacred weapons' weapon group that can include weapons from completely different fighter weapons groups?
For example, if an Arsenal Chaplain had longsword, warhammer, and longbow as sacred weapons would they get their full weapon training bonus with all of them? Would they be able to treat them all as the same weapon group and thus apply any AWT to all of them? That could open up really weird situations like being able to apply ranged weapon feats/options to melee weapons and vice versa.
My understanding has instead been that the example Arsenal Chaplain would need to take the 'heavy blades' fighter weapon group to get weapon training bonuses for the longsword, the 'hammers' group for the warhammer, and the 'bows' group for the longbow... having different weapon training bonuses for each and needing to take AWT options with these specific groups rather than being able to do so for all their weapons at once. Just like any fighter using AWT... with the additional restriction that they only get the benefits with their sacred weapons. So, the example Arsenal Chaplain might have weapon training with 'heavy blades', but if the longsword is their only sacred weapon in that group then they get no weapon training (or AWT) benefits for heavy blades other than the longsword.
Yes, that's what many say the chaplain does. Full bonus for any sacred weapon which is any weapon with weapon focus. And that's why they DON'T qualify for AWT.
Now your view would let everything work just fine and is written similarly to the THW fighter that says it only works for THW.
"As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons."
But for some reason that's not how most people are interpreting it.
Personally, I would rule that it is okay to use, but with certain restrictions on which AWT options are valid. Not sure which I would restrict, but there is already a precedent for this via the fighter's weapon master archetype. It will be interesting to see how PFS rules it, though.
On a related note, and using that FAQ as an example, the dragoon archetype qualifies for AWT, even though it never gets a second weapon training group. It is restricted to only taking the AWT feat every 5 levels, but it can get it. This also holds true for two-handed archetype, which gets regular weapon training, but can only apply it to the two-handed weapons from a given weapon group.
a chaplain can't take the option to swap groups for an AWT because they only get 1 group, Sacred weapons. Personally they should qualify for the feat using one of their fighter feats. PFS is taking a second look at perhaps allowing them to take the feat, but that could be anywhere from a week to month before they review this issue and decide to unban or keep banned.
I thought that them not having the option to swap was a pfs only thing not a general one?
The general rule is when a fighter would gain a new weapon group they can instead swap it for a AWT. If you have weapon training, but never get new groups, like the dragoon, then you have weapon training but never any new groups to swap for AWT.
EDIT:
"Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option"
Ah okay sounds good then.
The general rule is when a fighter would gain a new weapon group they can instead swap it for a AWT. If you have weapon training, but never get new groups, like the dragoon, then you have weapon training but never any new groups to swap for AWT.
EDIT:
"Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option"
That is true, but the AWT feat does not require you have Advanced Weapon Training. The feat requires you have the weapon training class feature and have at least 5 fighter levels.
I have just read the wording of the arsenal champions weapon training, and I think my reference to the two-handed fighter archetype was more apt than I realized. Based on the wording of both archetypes' weapon training, I think Arsenal champion gets multiple weapon groups, just like a normal fighter would. The only difference is the arsenal champion could only apply the weapon training bonuses to the weapons he has weapon focus for. In other words, the arsenal champion would have the option to swap out the additional weapon groups for AWT options.
Sorry for not linking or pasting the exact text, but I'm on my phone right now.
Edit: Chess Pwn, if it turns out we are agreeing with each other, then I hope this post doesn't sound too confrontational.
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The general rule is when a fighter would gain a new weapon group they can instead swap it for a AWT. If you have weapon training, but never get new groups, like the dragoon, then you have weapon training but never any new groups to swap for AWT.
EDIT:
"Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option"That is true, but the AWT feat does not require you have Advanced Weapon Training. The feat requires you have the weapon training class feature and have at least 5 fighter levels.
I have just read the wording of the arsenal champions weapon training, and I think my reference to the two-handed fighter archetype was more apt than I realized. Based on the wording of both archetypes' weapon training, I think Arsenal champion gets multiple weapon groups, just like a normal fighter would. The only difference is the arsenal champion could only apply the weapon training bonuses to the weapons he has weapon focus for. In other words, the arsenal champion would have the option to swap out the additional weapon groups for AWT options.
Sorry for not linking or pasting the exact text, but I'm on my phone right now.
Edit: Chess Pwn, if it turns out we are agreeing with each other, then I hope this post doesn't sound too confrontational.
Without a more detailed change of weapon training... it would almost have to work like this.
The Arsenal Chaplain gets the entire text of the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature. Since weapon training works in a staggered fashion, with previous weapon groups going up by 1, and new ones start at 1. The Arsenal Chaplain does not explain how that connects to using Weapon Focus.Instead, it reads like the Arsenal Chaplain just adds a new requirement, that you must have the weapon group and have taken weapon focus for one of the weapons in the weapon group.
This would mean the Arsenal Chaplain, by RAW, should also get AWT choices since they are baked into WT. The only RAW reason that they should not be able to that I can see is that PFS banned the option. Of course, since they banned the option... wouldn't that mean it would normally be a legal option?
The general rule is when a fighter would gain a new weapon group they can instead swap it for a AWT. If you have weapon training, but never get new groups, like the dragoon, then you have weapon training but never any new groups to swap for AWT.
EDIT:
"Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option"That is true, but the AWT feat does not require you have Advanced Weapon Training. The feat requires you have the weapon training class feature and have at least 5 fighter levels.
I have just read the wording of the arsenal champions weapon training, and I think my reference to the two-handed fighter archetype was more apt than I realized. Based on the wording of both archetypes' weapon training, I think Arsenal champion gets multiple weapon groups, just like a normal fighter would. The only difference is the arsenal champion could only apply the weapon training bonuses to the weapons he has weapon focus for. In other words, the arsenal champion would have the option to swap out the additional weapon groups for AWT options.
Sorry for not linking or pasting the exact text, but I'm on my phone right now.
Edit: Chess Pwn, if it turns out we are agreeing with each other, then I hope this post doesn't sound too confrontational.
Without a more detailed change of weapon training... it would almost have to work like this.
The Arsenal Chaplain gets the entire text of the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature. Since weapon training works in a staggered fashion, with previous weapon groups going up by 1, and new ones start at 1. The Arsenal Chaplain does not explain how that connects to using Weapon Focus.
Instead, it reads like the Arsenal Chaplain just adds a new requirement, that you must have the weapon group and have taken weapon focus for one of the weapons in the weapon group.This would mean the Arsenal Chaplain, by RAW, should also...
Which is what let to my confusion.
Since the Advanced Weapon Training feat only requires Weapon Training (which the Arsenal Chaplain has) and 5 fighter levels (and the Warpriest's bonus feats let them count WP levels as Fighter levels) I don't see anything preventing the Arsenal Chaplain from taking AWT with their level 6 bonus feat.
The questions I have, though are what to do when an AWT option refers to a weapon group. Obviously things like Armed Bravery simply do not apply, things like Trained Grace work fine, but what about Versatile Training? If an arsenal chaplain whose sacred weapon is a greatsword selects versatile training, can they select from the skills associated with the weapon group the greatsword belongs in, select from only Bluff and Intimidate, or not select this option at all.
Also how does "This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels." interact with taking the feat? At level 6, when selecting a bonus feat the WP has "6 fighter levels", so can they take the feat again with a bonus feat at level 12 because now they have "12 fighter levels"?
PFS seems to have taken the view that it's a special group "sacred weapons" and thus never gains new groups. Because of this view it makes sense to confirm that since they aren't getting new groups they can't take AWT. Personally I feel by a fluke of word choice and the feat being named the same thing as a feature (who did this and why? why not extra ... like everything else?) the feat is banned in PFS, though technically legal choice for WP using their bonus fighter feats. PFS may have intentionally banned the feat due to confusion of how the "sacred weapons" group interacts with many choices though.
The view that THW and this are special, in that they get full weapon training, but only applying to a subset of weapons in those groups, seems to be the less popular opinion (or at least that chaplain is the same as THW, I'm not for sure how people think THW works). This view makes all AWT and the feat work fine with no special finagling going on. While this works nice and clear, the biggest issue is convincing people that this is the way to view it.
I guess the Versatile Training question is simply resolved by "Are Sacred Weapons a Weapon Group". This would make Versatile Training work because "bluff and intimidate are associated with all weapon groups" per the WMH. Things like Combat Competence would be pretty useless, and Fighter's Finesse could be a backdoor to letting you finesse a greatsword by taking WF a second time (so your sacred weapon group consists of, say, the whip and the greatsword).
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PFS seems to have taken the view that it's a special group "sacred weapons" and thus never gains new groups. Because of this view it makes sense to confirm that since they aren't getting new groups they can't take AWT. Personally I feel by a fluke of word choice and the feat being named the same thing as a feature (who did this and why? why not extra ... like everything else?) the feat is banned in PFS, though technically legal choice for WP using their bonus fighter feats. PFS may have intentionally banned the feat due to confusion of how the "sacred weapons" group interacts with many choices though.
The view that THW and this are special, in that they get full weapon training, but only applying to a subset of weapons in those groups, seems to be the less popular opinion (or at least that chaplain is the same as THW, I'm not for sure how people think THW works). This view makes all AWT and the feat work fine with no special finagling going on. While this works nice and clear, the biggest issue is convincing people that this is the way to view it.
It would be great if the text actually said that. Being from a splat book... that will never happen. It needs official clarification, that's for sure. Tthe RAW vs RAI argument is almost impossible to solve without it.
It may well have been the intention for the Arsenal Chaplain to completely remove the weapon groups part of Weapon Training and replace it with Sacred Weapons. But that requires a bit more text to say then they put into the archetype.But, the RAW does solve most easily into saying, "To gain the benefit of Weapon Training for a weapon it must be a selected weapon group and be a sacred weapon." This seems to not require adding additional text to make it function.
Yet, it does seem that maybe they intended to replace weapon groups with sacred weapons since they did not clearly say, "To gain the benefit of weapon training... weapon group and sacred weapon..."
Nothing is clear.
PFS seems to have taken the view that it's a special group "sacred weapons" and thus never gains new groups. Because of this view it makes sense to confirm that since they aren't getting new groups they can't take AWT. Personally I feel by a fluke of word choice and the feat being named the same thing as a feature (who did this and why? why not extra ... like everything else?) the feat is banned in PFS, though technically legal choice for WP using their bonus fighter feats. PFS may have intentionally banned the feat due to confusion of how the "sacred weapons" group interacts with many choices though.
The view that THW and this are special, in that they get full weapon training, but only applying to a subset of weapons in those groups, seems to be the less popular opinion (or at least that chaplain is the same as THW, I'm not for sure how people think THW works). This view makes all AWT and the feat work fine with no special finagling going on. While this works nice and clear, the biggest issue is convincing people that this is the way to view it.
It would be great if the text actually said that. Being from a splat book... that will never happen. It needs official clarification, that's for sure. Tthe RAW vs RAI argument is almost impossible to solve without it.
It may well have been the intention for the Arsenal Chaplain to completely remove the weapon groups part of Weapon Training and replace it with Sacred Weapons. But that requires a bit more text to say then they put into the archetype.But, the RAW does solve most easily into saying, "To gain the benefit of Weapon Training for a weapon it must be a selected weapon group and be a sacred weapon." This seems to not require adding additional text to make it function.
Yet, it does seem that maybe they intended to replace weapon groups with sacred weapons since they did not clearly say, "To gain the benefit of weapon training... weapon group and sacred weapon..."
Nothing is clear.
With splatbooks we have a way to fix them now actually. If PFS does the work talking to people to figure out what that team wanted it to do they can bring that to the PDT and then they can issue a FAQ if they agree with it.
Here was John's post basicly saying they stopped it because unless your taking extra weapon focus feats they have a spare group at level 9 to just blow on AWT.
Both of those archetypes qualify. The Molthuni arsenal champion does not simply because it is a false choice; they only get weapon training for weapons for which they have Weapon Focus, so should such a warpriest not take further Weapon Focus feats, they effectively have a "spare" weapon group that's not applying to anything starting at level 9. Using that to purchase an advanced weapon training trick is basically free--or would be.So the Molthune Arsenal Chaplain warpriest can't take the Advances Weapon Training feats.
What about the Myrmidarch magus and the Sohei monk? Both of those archetypes get Weapon Training as a class feature.
Hey, looks like PFS does ascribe to view 2.
But I don't really buy it as a reason. fighter's lv9 is effectively just as free, spare, extra as the WP's. Because people only use 1 weapon, having your backup bow be slightly better is the best option I saw for it. So the fact that WT at lv9 for axes does immediately have weapons that work with it, when you have a +3 greatsword you're not going to be caring, because for you it's not applying to anything you use.
But the fighter could still benefit there from that extra group where as the Arsenal Chaplin has to take a second feat as well to benefit. Though now i have to wonder does having weapon specialist as a Chaplin make it so that all the weapons in my group and now Sacred Weapons?
But the fighter could still benefit there from that extra group where as the Arsenal Chaplin has to take a second feat as well to benefit. Though now i have to wonder does having weapon specialist as a Chaplin make it so that all the weapons in my group and now Sacred Weapons?
With the amount of character's I've seen that don't even carry a backup bow/sling/ANYTHING them getting another group is just as wasted. Having a qualifying weapon is needed to benefit. Both classes' builds would need to plan for it to have the second group be used and useful. Both classes have basically no reason to take a second group and not use AWT.
Oh I agree with you I'm just speculating as to why PFS would make that distinction for one and not the other. I mean honestly its a "false choice" for most builds at 9 and for all builds by 13 where there is no reason to grab a 3rd group at all.
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Oh I agree with you I'm just speculating as to why PFS would make that distinction for one and not the other. I mean honestly its a "false choice" for most builds at 9 and for all builds by 13 where there is no reason to grab a 3rd group at all.
I figured that's why they created AWT anyway... since a second and especially third weapon group is typically wasted.
Pathfinder seems to be built around specializing in one type of combat anyway.
Oh I agree with you I'm just speculating as to why PFS would make that distinction for one and not the other. I mean honestly its a "false choice" for most builds at 9 and for all builds by 13 where there is no reason to grab a 3rd group at all.I figured that's why they created AWT anyway... since a second and especially third weapon group is typically wasted.
Pathfinder seems to be built around specializing in one type of combat anyway.
Exactly I can see picking up a second to cover a back up style of combat but the latter ones we took because we had to.
It's probably easier to consider the warpriest functioning like the weapon master as far as what weapon groups go.
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This would mean the Arsenal Chaplain, by RAW, should also get AWT choices since they are baked into WT. The only RAW reason that they should not be able to that I can see is that PFS banned the option. Of course, since they banned the option... wouldn't that mean it would normally be a legal option?
Not necessarily. It means they just took the ambiguity out of it by clarifying/adding a house rule.
This would mean the Arsenal Chaplain, by RAW, should also get AWT choices since they are baked into WT. The only RAW reason that they should not be able to that I can see is that PFS banned the option. Of course, since they banned the option... wouldn't that mean it would normally be a legal option?Not necessarily. It means they just took the ambiguity out of it by clarifying/adding a house rule.
What ambiguity?
It's probably easier to consider the warpriest functioning like the weapon master as far as what weapon groups go.
Can you remind me how that works precisely? Since WMH and AMH both came out, the only fighters I've seen people play were of the vanilla "I want to play with the new toys" variety.
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Yes, but how is the Weapon Master's chosen weapon treated in terms of AWT (which they're explicitly allowed to take via the AWT feat's text).
If a Weapon Master specializing in in the Naginata takes Versatile Training with the AWT feat, do they get to choose the options in the Polearm group?
I would say yes but rules wise I'm unsure
Cannot choose weapon specialist, and options which specify group only apply to the chosen weapon.
Detailed in the feat.
Fighters that have the weapon master archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master's advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can't select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn't count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So Versatile Training works just fine for the Naginata Weapon Master, they can choose Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive because Naginatas are polearm. On the other hand Defensive Training would only work when they're wielding a Naginata and not if they were wielding a Lucerne Hammer.
Do I have that right?
So Versatile Training works just fine for the Naginata Weapon Master, they can choose Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive because Naginatas are polearm. On the other hand Defensive Training would only work when they're wielding a Naginata and not if they were wielding a Lucerne Hammer.
Do I have that right?
Seems in tact, yes.