Thron's Rise of the Runelords Campaign

Game Master Thron

In the middle of a work stretch. Will update when I can, and once we work out Rilee's action.

On that topic: I get that it is echolocation, which actually kind of reinforces, in my mind, the fact that a tent wall would still work to obscure things behind it. Sound waves that did manage to pass under and between any cracks in the wall would then disperse, hit whatever other creature/surface they could,within range, and then have to PRECISELY bounce back through a crack and to the source (you). I don't see any realistic way that a reliable image could be discerned. The spell is awesome for detecting invisible creatures in its area, but not for seeing through walls.

Except the tent is not a wall. I find it hard to believe that if a human can hear what's going on through the sheets, the super-accurate sonar can't. It's fabric. And especially since this is inside, it shouldn't be as thick as an outdoor tent. Further, this is an interior "wall" of fabric. It should be porous.

I'll concede that it could be muffled somewhat, but I still should be able to get the general location and number of figures in the next room.

And that doesn't leave out my other senses. I can still see. Are there light sources in the next room? Would I be able to see any silhouettes?

I can't believe you're not letting me get any idea of what's in the other room. I've got a +30 on my Perception currently, which coupled with echolocation should give me a pretty darn good idea of what's past that sheet.

I'd love to resolve this soon to keep things flowing. Can you two find a time to chat on roll20? It seems like this would be less of an issue if you could have quick back and forth like "you hear x but can't make out much", "I enter", "now you see x, and hear y through the wall to the right.", "I..."

Alternately...

For my own two cents, it's hard for me to believe echolocation provides direct benefit through heavy fabric walls (either IRL or based on Pathfinder rules text) but I like the idea of Rilee getting a detailed description of what she hears. I just double checked Perception and see: Assuming she rolls a 10 on perception for a 40, she can hear the details of a whispered conversation (DC 15) 150' away (+1 DC/10') and behind 2 doors (+5 DC/door) OR through 10' of walls (+10 DC/1' thickness).

On the other hand, getting detail past a certain point might take a Move action, based on "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."

I think there is a misunderstanding here:

It's not that I'm NOT LETTING you get any information, but the way you've worded what you wanna do leads me to think you want to know the moment you detect something. Without knowing your exact intended path, I won't know when to notify you of what you detect, and in what detail you detect it. But, based on the rules as well as my interpretation of echolocation's abilities, I do not believe it would give you a definite "this many things are in these locations" idea, but a good perception roll could get you some information of stuff on other sides of the walls. If even grant a +5 to the roll for having echolocation active.

Well, I'd like to be informed of what's beyond, since I'd like to have my dinosaur keep going through this room and into the next. I guess I can't really take an action like I intended since I needed to use a move action to push Rex into the next room. So moving into the pavilion is sort of all I have left to do this round. The main thing was how far in could I/should I go.

So here's the next question: Can my dino crash through the wall as part of his movement, or are you going to make him stop, burn a standard action, then wait a round to do the same blasted thing in next room? Since I can't tell what's beyond the curtain, I'll just have the dino crash all the way through and into the next room if he can -- which I still feel that he should. I can't find any rule anywhere that says an ability check has to be a standard action.

On roll 20 now.

On vacation with family until the 4th. Hope to post as able but not predictable so bot me if needed.

(Fortunately, I haven't had many choices to make here for a little while.) ;-)

Did you remember to turn my token's sight back on? I am only seeing black when I go to the map.

Fixing now

I hope everyone in the US had a good July 4. (Jelani, dunno if you and Poppy are celebrating them too in China.)

BTW, Jelani, I think after you act for this round we can continue...and I'm dying (metaphorically, and maybe literally) to see what happens next.

Need an action from Eugeni then good to go.

Sorry, thought I had acted.

Zoli lived to see another day! Thank Chaldira Zuzaristan! And yall!!

Post coming, probably in about 8 or 9 hours. Meanwhile, I don't think Z needs a Heal (she hasn't actually taken HP damage)...but she *really* needs a Greater Restoration (8 permanent negative levels!). Have you already Paragon Surged today? I think Rilee made a k.roll that suggests Neutralize (or Delay) Poison would help her too.

OOC, I'd suggest Pro Evil > Dispel Dominate > Greater Restoration & Delay or Neutralize Poison.

I've got a death ward spell that can let you ignore the effects for a little while. Whether I use it on you depends on how quick we find her and pin her down.

Dispeling immediately is to avoid any contingency orders, and Setsu did it first because she can actually cast that spell from a distance.

Heal automatically nukes any form of Poison from orbit, so that covers that. She also picked that spell because it's hilariously overkill.

I already burned Paragon Surge for today, and we're either going to need to raid the Greed wing for Blood Money or go shopping for all the diamond dust to pay for Greater Restoration.

According to Thron, thanks to that stupid dragon destroying the statue, we can't just get back in the way we entered, so that plan's a bust.

Anyway, I think that I've pointed out all the issues with just running around blindly looking for Delvahine. Can we at least rest for two hours and fifteen minutes so that I can get a better Dreamed Secrets loadout (Dimensional Anchor to pin her down and Locate Creature to actually find her) and a full set of Heals? I doubt the she can recover that quickly.

I'm fine with resting before doing more stuff. I am down quite a few spells as well, and still under a mind fog as far as I know.

I'm off on vacation later this morning without a PC. I most likely won't be posting anything significant until I get back next monday.

I updated my memorized spells as well. If someone needs to DMPC me while I'm gone, I'd prefer Setsuna does it if they have time.

Thron just pointed out to me that negative levels from energy drain aren't permanent for the first 24 hours. (Rilee, seems maybe you already knew that, but I misunderstood.)

That means a single casting of Restoration (with only 100 GP dust needed) will restore Zoli.

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a 1-week period.[/b]

Yep. That's what I meant.

:)

Does anyone have 100 gp worth of diamond dust? I have Restoration on my spells known.

Thron confirmed that the dragon horde has at least 100 gp of diamonds and that we can use it for the spell.

I'll deduct it from our loot tracker.

Speaking of which, did Setsu and Eugeni loot while Zoli cried and slept in R's lap?

Per some of the various sanity rules floating out there, heal is often given the added benefit of curing/relieving mental trauma.

In case you want to speed Zoli's recovery along.

Loot tracker updated. We've got quite a pile of cash to spend, assuming we survive this place!

I'm ready to go, and happy to tackle Greed next.

Anyone around to chat on r20?

I'm home, but exhausted after many days of 100+ degree heat, seeing sights with a small toddler in tow. I'll be catching up and starting to post tomorrow.

I just now noticed -- and realized -- that we have another tome, this one being for wisdom. Any objections to Rilee getting that? Though it won't become activated for another six days.

Also, Rilee claims one of the +3 bracers, since they'll continue working in wild shape.

Yes, I assumed you'd go for that one. I can't picture anyone else making an argument against it going to our sole WIS based caster. ;-)

Unless they all teleported, I should be able to track them into whatever wing they entered. Even if they flew, I can track them.

Forgot to mention: 8 bleed damage to the axeman that's still standing. (Technically to the one I killed too, if he has any blood left in'm.) ;-)

Setsuna, it may be what you're thinking already but I wonder if you want to summon your tiger over where we hear sound of casting instead of here?

So, given another heated discussion on Roll20 last night, I have been contemplating what is going on in this campaign causing such animosity. I'm honestly not quite sure.

Regarding the topic causing the frustration:

Yes, a golem has no intelligence. Neither does a computer. Both are inanimate objects. But both are given orders and commands by intelligent people, and these inanimate objects are capable of performing them to the letter. Computers do it by series of code and programming. Golems by magic.

Now, I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but if I were to try to convert myself into DnD stats, I humbly think they'd fall as follows:

Str - 14
Dex - 9
Con - 12
Int - 14
Wis - 10
Cha - 12

I consider 18's to be some of the worlds most gifted individuals: Bodybuilders, Olympic sprinters, rocket scientists, professional performers. So once we start looking at people with scores >/= 20, I consider them to be quite impressive subjects, capable of things near incomprehensible to us mortal folk.

So, when I am able to sit here and in a matter of minutes able to, after reading the creatures description in the campaign book, devise an accurate series of commands that someone, who is now aware of intruders to the Runeforge, could give to a guardian that would make it continue to stand vigil, yet still seek to defend the denizens of the Halls of Wrath if someone (likely capable of powerful magics to hide their presence) managed to bypass its watch and activate a teleporter...I can only presume that someone exponentially more intelligent than myself could come up with even better commands.

It is not my job as DM to have to explain any and all things going on behind the scenes, but seeing as my integrity seems to be in question, I will explain SOME of the commands this thing has been given that it is currently performing:

1) Protect the teleportation circles, the Halls of Wrath, and its rightful denizens from obvious intruders.
2) If the circles are activated by anyone or anything that is not a rightful denizen of the Halls of Wrath, pursue and destroy anyone and anything that does not rightfully belong in the Halls of Wrath until (insert master's name here) commands you to stand down.
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Next: there was the repeated accusation that I forgot the veil. To that I respond, if I did...so what? It wouldn't change anything that happened. For the record, I didn't. The veil made you guys appear as six gnats as opposed to four humanoids, a roc, and a rat. Ok, fine.

Per Veil: "The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble." No mention of sound.

So these Sinspawn just saw these gnats managed to activate the teleportation circle, and then one managed to cut through one of their number like wheat to a scythe and then brag about it audibly. Another just said a command word of magic and then activated the other teleporter. And the remaining two began chanting words of magic. Of COURSE they are going to retaliate, even if they still perceive you as gnats. Your defensive statistics are unchanged by Veil, you have no sudden miss chance or higher AC's. You just look like gnats.

This is also why they all targetted the one gnat that did something offensive. I realistically could have had them strike out at Eugeni, but instead, I had them attack Zoli-gnat as it was the one who posed the most immediate physical threat.
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Ultimately, however, my largest frustration is that I am routinely having my actions have explanations for them almost demanded of me. I can understand asking for clarification. But when I give as much of one as I can without getting into behind the scenes stuff, and then face, quite frankly, insulting remarks back at me time and time again, it makes my running this game less entertaining and more burdensome.

I am trying to run this game as entertainingly and fairly as I can. That being said, I don't consider enemies using mindless tactics as entertaining. If something happens in game that would result in changes to enemy strategies, such as a creature that can teleport at will escaping and seeking allies, then I'm going to make these characters (who in many cases have impressive intelligence scores), alter their standard behavior in ways that are not overpowered but more realistic.

I don't really know what you guys want from me anymore. I slowed your leveling down some to make the game less of a push over, you guys requested to be at the level suggested, I relented and boosted you appropriate level.

You face an encounter that proved challenging, yet you survive, and I am faced with complaints.

And now, an enemy attacks you while you are under an illusion, and I face yet another emotional complaint.

It seems the frustrations are coming faster and with less provocation. Would you rather I just write out a short story detailing how you guys overcome Karzoug and his minions? Strict copy and paste of the books with 0 creative input on my part?

A solution needs to be met that brings these arguments to an end, or I'm going to (as much as I'd hate to) put this game out to pasture. This is not something I want to do, because we are so close to completing this AP via PBP, which is not an easy task. And we have all, I'd hope, enjoyed playing this game together. At least to this point. But it's seeming more and more like people are having less fun and more arguments.

It's pretty clear that I'm responsible for at least some of the animosity. I'll admit that I've been needlessly antagonistic, and I apologize for that. Thron, while I might not always agree with your rulings and might try to present another angle, my intention was never to insult you personally. If that has ever happened, I'm very sorry about it.

I'll address the individual points that I remember. While I will offer explanations, please understand that I'm trying to present my side of the story and not trying to make excuses for how I acted.

****

Regarding levels, while I understand Thron's logic, long story short, I felt like we weren't getting a sporting chance.

It was getting to the point where PCs were dropping like flies because the bosses were meant to challenge a party two plus levels higher, and I think that it would've only gotten worse (e.g. how would we have beaten/survived Frostmaw Round 1?). I'm also playing a delayed progression spellcaster, so I wasn't getting all my cool toys that would've actually helped us stay alive. It's one thing to lose after a fair fight; it's another to get your teeth kicked in because you never stood a chance and were (in my opinion) fighting with both hands tied behind your back.

Now that we're back on track, I think that the level issue has been resolved.

****

On Frostmaw... okay, I'll take the fault for that one. The situation was stressful, and at the time, I felt like we were being punished for being smart and dodging a TPK. However, in retrospect, it seems that my conduct wasn't exactly sporting. For that, I'm sorry.

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Regarding the debate on Penumbral Disguise vs. Darkvision (if that had anything to do with this conversation), my intention was to try to convince Thron that he was reading the spell incorrectly and seeing a weakness that didn't exist. As I've said in the past, I don't think it's fair for my character's powers to randomly change on me, especially in the middle of a heated situation. However, if I was a jerk about it, that was not my intention, and again, I apologize for being out of line.

****

As for the Delvahine encounter, I'm just skittish about that kind of subject material, and it (in my opinion) dragged for nearly two months. While gyr seems to be taking it in stride, what happened to Zoli honestly bothers me. Factoring in that I made some really dumb mistakes, I was very frustrated at the situation, not anyone in particular besides perhaps Paizo for writing such a dark encounter that would TPK a lot of parties. That said, I'll admit that I was ultimately out of line. I got needlessly frustrated and bitter. Again, I apologize for my behavior.

****

And on Veil and its chain of events, this strikes me as the straw that broke the camel's back. That said, I actually agree with Thron on this point.

Stal, I don't think that you were being fair to Thron last night.

****

In short, I promise to be better about managing my frustrations in the future, and I apologize for all the occasions where I was out of line.

Thron, please keeping running your game the way you want; I appreciate all the effort you've put into this story. If something bothers me on the level of the last encounter, I'll let you know via PM.

In regards to the Delvahine encounter: as I said before the fight started, I knew the wing of Lust was an area that could get into some touchy subjects. But honestly, the whole wing could have been handled diplomatically.

Didn't shake out that way, which forced me to ask myself this question: "How does a succubus that has been top dog here for thousands of years react to some newcomers attacking her daughter's/minions?"[/b]

Demons are capable of some depraved things, and likely have little to no respect for mortals. So in order to play the scene relatively accurately (thematically), things had to get kind of dark.

As to your a couple of your other points:

A) Frostmaw - dragons are smart and powerful. This falls into my "Not dumbing things down" mentality of DnD.

B) Penumbral/Darkness - a rules discussion. I had already forgotten about it.
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Also, in case my room descriptions and the fact that global illumination is active did not make this clear before, let me clarify this for you in particular Setsuna. All of these chambers, as written in the adventure, are brightly lit by magic, top to bottom, from spells cast on the walls and ceiling. So there aren't any sizable shadows.

Basically, imagine rooms with lights coming from the ceiling and every wall: the only shadows would maybe, MAYBE, be a small speck of one directly beneath someone.

I actually enjoy that you portray the enemies as smart. It has definitely made for some fun encounters (e.g. Hook Mountain).

Another thing with Frostmaw Round 1 is that it felt like a random tactical nuke was being dropped on us with minimal warning. It was such a jarring turn of events that spiraled into another tragedy of errors that needed to be cleaned up. Hence Setsu's (and my) frustration.

Regarding shadows, thanks for clarification, and I'll keep that in mind. That being said, my version of hiding in plain sight is defined as "Stealth when observed if you are within 10' of a shadow that isn't your own." So, hilariously, those little specks are enough.

Also, some parts of maps seem to be painted with shadows, and I made a point to move Setsuna to those areas; would those count?

Those are just artists taking some liberties with things. Kinda like the walls looking rough and eroded despite the preserving magics of Runeforge.

Noted.

Thron, thanks so much for all that you put into this game, and thanks for taking the time to write about what isn't working for you.

CDL, thanks for taking the time to reply earnestly as well.

I know some gaming groups--when they reach an area of disagreement--will put everything on hold and merrily argue it for hours. That's not right or wrong, but I propose we choose a different culture for our group going forward:

My proposal
1. When one or more of us think the DM misunderstood something (player intent, the rules, etc), we politely raise the issue.

2. Once we've been heard and understood, I propose we agree to have the DM be the final arbiter. Reasonable people won't always agree (especially with wacky high level enchantment and illusion magic) but I'm 100% fine with going forward with the DM's call, as long as I have been able to ask my question (or state my case) first.

I think Thron actually modeled this nicely in Absolom, when he was surprised by how Jelani handled his enchanting the dragon: he asked a question, learned how Jelani rules such spells, and moved on (including asking for and receiving permission to trade those spells out after this scenario).

3. If someone's frustrated with a ruling, I encourage folks at this point to vent offline instead of on the forums or roll20 chat. (I think we all take this game pretty personally, in part due to how invested we are in these characters and in the story that the five of us are collectively telling.)

What do you think?

Thanks for your thoughts, gyr. I think that's a great plan, and I say that we enact it. A game as complex as Pathfinder needs a final authority, and in this case, that would be Thron. If he issues a ruling after the debate phase, then we should respect it.

Eh? I have no idea what is going on.

I generally agree with Zoli's suggestion on how things should be run, DM should have final call.

In the meantime, I've got a nasty flu that moved on from respiratory issues to having digestive problems coming out both ends, as does my daughter. I'm not feeling like doing much of anything until I get over this illness, but I hope we can work out a solution and finish the game.

Jelani: Ughhh, sorry to hear that both you and Jelanita are so sick! I hope Poppy's OK, and that you two get better soon.

I've held off commenting until now because I've tried to sort out where the friction is coming from, so I can provide answers rather than just throwing out my side of things. I'm also going to pm Thron with some additional thoughts.

First off, just know I wasn't emotionally upset about the most recent rules debate; just perplexed with Thron's ruling. Though I'll admit there were other rulings/issues that did cause me to get heated. I'm sorry for those times.

Here's my take on the root cause:

I think we have hit the threshold of "rocket tag" in the game. We're all 14th level, meaning we'll be facing challenges upwards of CR 17 and 18. The powers and abilities we're dealing with on both sides of the GM screen will usually end a confrontation in a round or two. Sometimes, we'll have a spell or class ability available that can thwart or bypass an encounter entirely, like we did with the golem. Other times, if the monster gets the drop on us, we face a TPK, like what happened with the dragon.

That's the nature of the game at higher levels. The stress gets higher because the stakes get higher. Every encounter is potentially a wipeout if we're not on top of our game, and in many cases it can come down to who wins initiative or a single failed save.

If we bypass an encounter or have a tool in our toolbox that makes it negligible, we should be allowed to use it. What had me so confounded about the golem ruling is that it first ignored a bunch of gnats as not being a threat, but then since the teleportals activated, it decided that the gnats it could see suddenly were a threat. From my perspective, that undid the magical resources we (well, Eugeni) used to overcome the challenge, forcing us (well, me) to expend more resources to avoid possibly dying or losing another major class feature (Olympus).

As we continue to progress, I'm afraid the higher level spells and abilities will continue to exacerbate these issues.

I feel that lately, the rulings have been skewed against the players. Whether it's my own perception based on anecdotal evidence, or really happening yet purely unintentionally, I don't know. But I have been getting the sense that if there's a rules question, it's going to go against us, at least at first. And then we the players have to respond, because sometimes we're right, or at the very least, justified in defending our positions.

I have some other points I need to make, but I'll do that privately.

But bottom line, I still have been having a lot of fun in this game and don't want it to end. So hopefully we can push past this and keep going.

Replied to Rilee's PM.

Main thing from above I feel I need to readdress publicly is this, which is a literal copy/paste from my PM to Rilee:

I am all for players using unorthodox tactics and creative spell uses to try cool s!*~. Stone shape a ceiling to cause a collapse? Cool! I saw Gandalf do basically that in The Hobbit, feasible. Cast Daylight in a pitch black room and momentarily blind foes? Give it a whirl!

But if there are in-game, behind-the-scenes reasons that something won't work (like the special tent thing above), please don't accuse me of being against you guys. There are lots of things in the book that specifically have caveats for some stuff.

My primary concern going forward is to prevent further accusatory scenarios. If I say something does or doesn't happen, even after an open, friendly discussion of the rules, then I have a reason for it, and that reason is not "To screw over the players." I know y'all are the stars of the game. I want you to feel as such. But even the heroes have unexplainable hardships they sometimes face.

Hey, Thron. Since it sounds like Jelani is a little cooked at the moment, you can probably advance the combat. I imagine that New-geni would do something simple like move out of melee range and drop a Magic Missile on the nearest axeman.

Setsu, do you want to just play him? I'm sure he'd be OK with that.

Btw, I'm traveling until 8/23. I expect to be mostly online but could well haven't gaps. Feel free to play me as well, if I don't post for a day in combat.

Cheers.

I could, but I would prefer to have Jelani's approval first.

You can post a round for me sure. I am feeling a little better, and hopefully will be back to normal posting within 24 hours or so.

@Gyr: If you want to make Zoli's DPR even more ridiculous, I'd consider getting her a Baldric Bane. For only 10,000 gp, as a swift action, she could slap the Bane property of her choice on Baern's Breath for up to five rounds each day. That's another +2 to hit and 2d6+2 damage.

The only downside I see is that it would eat up her parry action. However, there might be times when another +2 to hit and 2d6+2 damage is more ideal.

Really curious how a golem that is immune to magic can be teleported.

Here's another rules protest for you, Thron. If this is a golem, it shouldn't be able to use the teleporter. That's a magic spell effect, to which the golem should be immune.