The Turning Wheel - a Zeitgeist PbP

Game Master karlprosek

I'll have posts for you guys tomorrow.

I know I've been neglecting you guys. Sorry. This week got away from me; I'll have IC posts on Monday.

I'll be out of town and generally not on line until Saturday evening.

I'm thinking about re-opening this game, if any of the players are interested. Thoughts?

I'd be interested for sure but I definitely need to read up on the Zeitgeist setting, as I'm not familiar with it at all. I've heard it's somewhat similar to Warhammer Fantasy, though?

I'd be interested for sure but I definitely need to read up on the Zeitgeist setting, as I'm not familiar with it at all. I've heard it's somewhat similar to Warhammer Fantasy, though?

From what I remember of Warhammer Fantasy, Zeitgeist is a lot more steam and coal-punk. There's a lot about mechanical inventions and weird science in this setting.

The Player's Guide is somewhat helpful and I'll see what I can do about helping you with more world building information.

Aziel is ready to jump back in! Unless we're moving to 5e? In which case, would you be willing to allow the gunslinger 3pp?

hullo! Interested--I'll have to look up this world and ruleset, though!

Ber looks interesting, with monstrous PC races. As half dragon is a little overpowered, how about a half Deep Dragon? Excellent to pair with ninja classes.

I'm a little leery of a CR +2 template. If you want something draconic, you could go with dragonkin or wyvarans or I'd be willing to re-fluff the nagaji into dragonborn.

Speaking of dragonborn, would there be any interest in doing this as 5E instead of Pathfinder? The AP is written for both systems and I could do either. Thoughts? Preferences?

I've heard so much about 5e that I'm excited to try it, so if we switch it would be fine with me.

Oh, no interest in 5E for me. :) I agree that +2 CR is pretty OP; I'm thinking of perhaps going with vishkanya Deadly Courtesan or some sort of bard (Flame Dancer is dragon-y), to give the sneaky scaley face a less overpowered turn.

I'm good with a vishkanya. Still from Ber?

So that's K with an OK and Eric with a No. Don?

I haven't heard back from Shane's player, so I'll assume he's a no for returning. That gives us 3 and I'd like at least 4. If anybody has a recommendation from the boards here I'll gladly reach out to somebody any of you think is good.

I think Bale Fire is really good, if s/he wants to join. Ray is back on the boards again, too. Scott is great, but I think he's too busy. YoricksRequiem might be cool, I think he was a member before?

I'd be much more in favor of 5e as I find it much simpler to digest for PBP. If we do PF it will definitely take me significantly longer to plot out a character and mechanical posts.

Assuming we're playing in the Paizo Forums? Any chance at playing in a different forum per chance? These tend to not be very intuitive or accessible for moi.

I wouldn't mind trying out a forum; I've been informed they're not as awful as I remember from the early 00's. ^_^;

I wouldn't even mind starting over, for the benefit of the new people.

...Actually, maybe for mine, too. What were we doing, again? :P

If we are staying in Pathfinder, I am glancing hard over at an Investigator, the Steel Hound Archetype. But I'll reserve commitment until we're settled on system

My preference would be that we play here. We're already doing pbems and coming here to check other games; I don't really want to add a third place for me to have to visit every day.

I'll PM those 3 people, K.

It's probably a good idea to start over from the beginning of this mod (The Dying Skyseer) but I don't really want to replay mod 1, Island at the Axis of the World.

For 5E vs PF I'm going to go with what allows the most people to play. Right now we've got one 'strong 5E,' (let's call that a .75) one 'PF only,' (that's a 1) and one 'either way' (a .5). So right now we're 1.5 for PF to 1.25 for 5E. If we get a couple more people on board hopefully that will clarify our system for us.

OK, here's a thought. It's kind of a crazy thought. Would the people who want to play 5E be interested in me running Waterdeep: Dragon Heist for them in 5E while we do this game in PF? I'm currently running DH in face to face and could do it online with minimal extra prep for myself.

Hmm. With all the games I have in play and in the works, I think I'd better pass on Waterdeep. I don't think I'll be able to juggle more once my workload increases again. But thank you for the option!

I am kind of leaning more towards 5e in this game, though.

I would only be able to commit to one, so for me it would be either Dragon Heist or Zeitgeist. If there's interest for DH, that sounds pretty darn fun, otherwise I'm good doing ZG once we get our extra folks in.

OK, I PM'd those 3 potentials. We'll focus on PF Zeitgeist for now. If we can't drum up interest for this game maybe we'll just say screw it and do Dragon Heist.

Coron and Ax, since it's kind of up in the air right now let's just talk about potential backgrounds and classes. Aziel, our one returning PC, is a Danoran tiefling gunslinger. This will be level 3, I do 25 point builds because I like Big Damn Heroes, and we'll use streamlined combat feats and scaling feats so you don't need to worry too much about buying up feat trees. What do you guys think you would like to play?

K, I think the 13th Age skills experiment didn't really work out. While it allowed for a wider range of abilities I'm not sure anybody ever really got comfortable with it. What do you think we should do here? Regular PF skills with Background skills or try 13th Age again?

Is there like a link or such to "Streamlined Combat Feats" and "Scaling Feats"?

I'm going to be looking at a Berian Half-Orc Investigator (Steel Hound). Pistol-Packing Private Eye sounds pretty fitting for working with the Constabulary. Current idea is someone who originally sailed on steamers, running cargo (perhaps a smuggler?) who because of [insert event here] is indebted to the Constabulary and so is putting his skills to use for them.

I'm okay with Regular PF Skills with Background Skills, but I'd be open to trying 13th Age Skills again, so long as everyone else is.

I'm good with either 13th Age or PF with background skills, no particular preference. Maybe some demonstrations of how to use the 13th Age more creatively, rather than mapping them to PF skills, would be useful, if we go with those?

Ahahaha, Danoran and Berian accents UNITE

After some brief theorycrafting, I think I'll abandon the Steel Hound and instead go Gunslinger 1 / Investigator (Empiricist) X. A Berian Docker who, upon arrival in Flint, basically adopted the Docker cause and tries to champion Berian Egalitarianism for these hard working bohemians.

Feat scaling and expanded combat options are at those 2 links, respectively. They both came out of online discussion and articles about how to get around some of the baked in feat taxes in PF.

I'm good with either 13th Age or PF with background skills, no particular preference. Maybe some demonstrations of how to use the 13th Age more creatively, rather than mapping them to PF skills, would be useful, if we go with those?

I think that the point of the 13th Age backgrounds system is that, like most of the changes they made, it's supposed to make the game more narrative than simply mechanical. Instead of saying 'my guy has Monster Hunting Clan background +4 so he should get +4 +2 lvl +3 Int to a Kn: Arcana check to ID this footprint,' it's supposed to be like:

'Grunk hunkered down to examine the track. He'd never seen one in the flesh before, but his grandfather had always talked about the unmistakable rending claws of the dinosaurs he had hunted in his youth. (Monster Hunter Clan +4)'. And then I could be like 'While he was pretty sure this wasn't a dinosaur- the weather was too cold here for that, for one thing- he was sure from the thick, heavy claws and a loose scale he found on the ground that this creature was saurian in origin. He guessed it was a dragon. A small one, but an honest to goodness dragon.'

And checks are generally supposed to be looser- like, if somebody else had 'Library Nerd +3' they could also try to make a check to ID those tracks, coming at it for a totally different reason. Basically, it's supposed to encourage people to think about what their PC should know and get people to elaborate on their background, expanding the story for the player and the DM together.

The reason I like it is because it gives you guys more options and flexibility during play. But I feel like it was clunkier for you and kind of added an extra step. Instead of being able to look at your sheet and see if you had Kn:Arcana, you had to add a middle step to the process. My impression was that you guys weren't really fans of it, but maybe I was mistaken.

Maybe I should just ask you guys, then. Do you like the 13th Age system or would you prefer to drop it and use the standard PF skills with Background skills?

Ahahaha, Danoran and Berian accents UNITE

What do we think a Berian accent sounds like? I'm thinking a heavy Russian/Eastern European one, but that's not based on anything I've read, it's just the first thing that popped in my head.

The Player's Guide says Berians are Spanish influenced, so my Half-Orc is absolutely named Diego Ferran Roldán because of course he is. The Dwarves are Slavic-sounding, it seems, which I lean HARD into. Russian/Germanic Dwarves <3

To be fair, I DO like the 13th Age system just because it feels similar to like Cypher's or FATE's way of handling skills, and I'm all for being able to play charming Fighters, erudite Barbarians, and athletic Wizards which Pathfinder just ... doesn't really allow without building your entire concept around those things and paying a bunch of Traits and Feats to do it.

My only issue with it is Pathfinder is built also upon the idea that class balance means some classes get more Skill Points than others because part of the draw of their class is that they ARE skilled in many things, like the Rogue, the Bard, and, to make it personal, the Investigator I'm planning to roll up. With 13th Age giving everyone an equal amount of Skill Points to distribute, that's great for diversity and balance, but not so great for Pathfinder's deal of "No, part of your class' benefit is you just know more things."

And I get 13th Age Skills are more open but I can't just do like "Okay I drop 6 points into "Docker Private Eye" and that means I know everything about anything and I'm also stealthy and athletic and persuasive and great at singing and also an amateur philosopher and artist."

... Right?

Berian accents are listed in the PG as sounding Spanish, while Danoran is French. I will have to try to out-accent (outrageously badly, of course) Don's guy. XD

I guess I'd like to attempt the 13th Age skills again, if everyone else is on board with it.

ETA: Aaaaah, ninjaed!

Maybe some of the more skill-heavy PF classes could get a bonus skill point or two as a background thing? Maybe a trait?

Hello, I'm one of the people that Krisam recommended.

I know a bit about Zeitgeist since I was in a game that went on for a bit. I played an investigator, which was kind of a chore, honestly. They are a very reserved class for those first few levels.

If system voting is still up, then I would also recommend 5e. Since it takes minutes to build characters.

But otherwise I have no problem with Pathfinder. I only know 13th Age by reputation, but if that's the way you wanted to go, I'd be willing to learn.

I would like to play a wizard or a sorcerer. Which would fit the adventure better, GM?

Actually, I have been toying around with using Zeitgeist for a home game. Only I was planning on using the Fantasy Age system, which is pretty good for swashbuckling stuff.

Welcome to the growing crew, wicked_raygun!

If we're doing Pathfinder, I'm still thinking about ninja, or rogue, or Deadly Courtesan, which is sort of a bard/rogue, for a vishkanya.

If we're doing 13th Age...why not psion? :D Because psionics.

Assuming we're still doing Pathfinder, I think I'll give the Spell slinger Wizard archetype a spin. I think it'll fit well with the Gunsmith Theme feat.

Unfortunately I'll need to pick 4 opposed schools. I was thinking of keeping:
• Abjuration
• Evocation
• Transmutation
• Illusion

I'd play a human. But I haven't decided on a gender or nationality yet. Still working on that.

If we go 5e, I'm probably looking at the Inquisitive Rogue, I feel that fits my concept best.

Hey, we've got a quorum! I see we've got a lot of people interested in 5E, but we'd lose a player if we go that route and everybody else seems at least OK with Pathfinder rules so I think we'll stick with PF.

And hell, if everybody's still interested later and people's schedules get more relaxed I can always run a 5E game then.

And I get 13th Age Skills are more open but I can't just do like "Okay I drop 6 points into "Docker Private Eye" and that means I know everything about anything and I'm also stealthy and athletic and persuasive and great at singing and also an amateur philosopher and artist."

... Right?

That's right. Docker Private Eye sounds like a cool background, but you'd have a hard time convincing me you should be able to apply the full background points to navigating a boat or identifying a flower or being an amateur philosopher and artist.

For high-skill classes, we could agree on extra Background points for certain classes. Like, 2 or 4+Int classes would get the standard 8 points, 6+Int would get 10 points, and 8+Int would get 12? That's not play-tested, obviously.

Alternatively, some classes could just get free Background points for core class features. For example, this Ranger entry says they get 5 points in the 'Tracker' Background for free.

Thoughts?

But otherwise I have no problem with Pathfinder. I only know 13th Age by reputation, but if that's the way you wanted to go, I'd be willing to learn.

We wouldn't go full 13th Age, as much as I like the rules. I've just replaced the PF skills system with 13th Age Backgrounds in games before. The idea is really nice, but it takes a bit of a mental shift for us to start thinking in that direction.

My personal philosophy is to try to make the game easier to play and more open to the PCs doing cool stuff. Broader skills and streamlining feats are a couple of steps in that direction.

Actually, I have been toying around with using Zeitgeist for a home game. Only I was planning on using the Fantasy Age system, which is pretty good for swashbuckling stuff.

I don't know about Fantasy Age, but we played 7th Sea for a little bit and that system is awesome for swashbuckling.

If we're doing 13th Age...why not psion? :D Because psionics.

I'm open to psionics if you want to do psionics. Dreamscarred Press? I'm cool with that.

Unfortunately I'll need to pick 4 opposed schools. I was thinking of keeping:
• Abjuration
• Evocation
• Transmutation
• Illusion

Personally I'd pick Conjuration over Evocation, but I don't know much about the Spell Slinger.

*Goes completely googly-eyed and depressed over mention of 7th Sea*

Gods how I love that system. Gods how I hate my job and its time crunch.

For high-skill classes, we could agree on extra Background points for certain classes. Like, 2 or 4+Int classes would get the standard 8 points, 6+Int would get 10 points, and 8+Int would get 12? That's not play-tested, obviously.

Alternatively, some classes could just get free Background points for core class features. For example, this Ranger entry says they get 5 points in the 'Tracker' Background for free.

Thoughts?

So, I kinda dig the idea of Free Background Points for Core Features. That way you're still good at what your class is supposed to be decent at, but you still have the freedom to put points in other things too. It seems most classes have it where you get just a straight 5 Points to 1 Background?

And for Zeitgeist if you don't want it by Class, we can even tie that directly to the Theme, so you'd have like 5 Background Points related to being a Docker / Gunsmith / Technologist / Etc., and then your 8 points elsewhere.

I think the 8 Points distributed as you please and 5 Free Points straight towards something intrinsic to your Class or Background is more than adequate and satisfies my concerns. Assuming that abilities that allow you to use, say, Intelligence for Diplomacy still work, you just flavor what you're doing properly in the writing, yeah?

So! With that said.

Diego shall be a Gunslinger 1 / Investigator (Empiricist) 2 to start with. For the Gunslinger, looking at the Black Powder Vaulter as an Archetype, as I kinda like the idea of a Docker Private Eye being more mobile during firefights. He'll stay Gunslinger after that until about 5.

Score wise, going to pump Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom. Looking to have the character serve as kind of a Skill Monkey, knows a little bit about everything, very much a Jack of All Trades, Master of None deal.

Current background concept revolves around having come to Risur after the end of the Fourth Yerasol War. Mom was an Executora dola Liberta and so influenced her son with the egalitarian and revolutionary ideals of Ber. Dad was a Risurian by birth and died fighting in the Fourth War. Diego himself was a student of the Panoply, the scholars of Ber, and when he was offered to go abroad with a group of traveling professors to teach in Flint, he accepted to go see the land of his father.

There, he comes to bond with the plight of the Dockers and increasingly sees it as his duty to help these people if he truly is the son of an Executora. He abandons the Panoply tour when they go home to Ber and stays on in Flint, putting his education to use in agitating for political reform, protecting Dockers from criminal activities and overzealous police, and pushing for labor unions and other forms of social organization. Probably joined the RHC as a "I have a better chance of changing them from the inside" deal, or maybe was captured during a protest and offered his freedom in exchange for working with the RHC, that might be a bit more dramatic.

More than happy to coordinate with anyone else who may have known Detective Roldán from his time amongst the Dockers.

The Spell Slinger is really more of a glass cannon than a traditional God Wizard. They use guns as arcane devices, and shoot spells out of them. So Evocation is a must.

And although I know how powerful conjuration is, I've decided not to use summoning. That doesn't mean I can never cast Black Tentacles, or Teleportation. It just means it costs me more money, and I'll need an extra spell slot for them. Down the road, I believe I can also take a feat later that eliminates an opposed school.

Aziel hangs about with Dockers in her spare time. It wouldn't be a leap for her to know Diego, or at least know OF him. Let me know how deep the rabbit hole should go.

Looking forward to seeing your background concept, Ray!

Hello everyone! If you're still looking for players I'd be happy to join. I don't really have any preferences on systems or rules, though Pathfinder is the roleplaying game I know best.

Still thinking up a character, but it looks like currently the party is a gunslinger/investigator, a rogue (dancing courtesan), and a wizard (spellslinger), so I'd probably pick something to fill in any roles not already covered.

Thanks for the invite, Krisam!

Welcome to the team, Bale Fire!

Yes, welcome, Bale Fire! I'm really pleased you're joining us! Karl is a great GM, very focused on the Rule of Cool. I think we'll have a lot of fun.

So far:

Axolotl - possibly vishkanya Deadly Courtesan or some sort of bard (Flame Dancer?)

Diego - Berian gunslinger/investigator (empiricist)

Aziel - Danoran fighter/gunslinger

Wicked Raygun - wizard (spellslinger)

Bale Fire - TBD

Thanks for coming aboard, new players! I'm excited to play in this world again.

To me, it looks like you guys could use a big tough person as a meat shield or a healer to take care of all these glass cannons. Maybe a warpriest could fit that dual role?

This group looks interesting, with 2 members associated with the Dockers. We used to have a fancy high-elf with connections to Risuri nobility and she was kind of useful. We also had someone with the Spirit Medium theme, and that came in helpful once or twice too.

GM, would you mind if I used starting wealth to craft a gun. That would let me begin with a pepperbox pistol. It would also let me save some money on crafted ammo.

You're level 3, so feel free to Craft stuff if you have the ability.

Assuming WBL for level 3?

Also for Skills, are we doing the 13th Age system with 5 Points for Free in something related to the Class or Background Theme, yes?

Weird, I just posted? Sorry if this double-posts.

Standard WBL, yeah. K, you can keep what you have or buy like you're building Aziel fresh at level 3, just let me know what you want to do.

For skills, I think we should do 13th Age Backgrounds like we've discussed. For this 'core 5' idea, I'm thinking that should just be for skilled classes (6 or 8+Int skill points/level classes), but I'm willing to be convinced if people want to make an argument otherwise.

So just to be clear, Skills are

1.) 8 Points distributed as we see fit into Backgrounds that fit our character. Diego for example may have 4 points in "Docker Revolutionary" and 4 Points in "Errant Scholar".

2.) An additional 5 "Free" Points devoted solely to something fitting a Class that gets 6 or More Skill Points per Level, ie my Investigator having 5 points in something called like "Detective"

I have that right?

As we've discussed it so far, yes.

Each PC gets 8 points to distribute between Backgrounds, with a maximum of 5 points in any single background. Your distribution is a good example of a typical distribution.

Skilled classes like the ranger and rogue get an extra 5-point background to represent their core class skills.

When it comes up in the game, a skill check is applicable Background + character level + relevant stat. Background and relevant stat are determined by how you write your character's approach to the situation.

• -If you want your PC to win a card game by card counting, Perpetual Student + Int mod could apply because they have a great memory and head for numbers.
• -If somebody else wants their PC to win that same card game by sleight of hand, Street Urchin + Dex mod could apply.
• -Or if somebody's PC is a professional gambler, Professional Gambler + Wis mod (or Int, or maybe even Cha if you can make a good case for it).

This is a writeup by the 13th Age publishers talking about their intent with this system. One interesting thing that they mention here but I had frankly forgotten about and I don't think we've used in any of the games I've shoehorned Backgrounds into is that Background points could be equipment or people. For example, "Eldritch Flute of Destruction +4" to tear down walls and smash open locked chests, out of combat- it's not particularly versatile but it's certainly cool.

Interestingly, something I didn't know until I booted up Hero Lab was that the Spellsinger in addition to having 4 opposed schools, also lose cantrips. And, honestly, that was a bridge too far. I'll be making a Sorcerer instead. Stay Tuned.

Alright, this is wicked_raygun pitching my sorcerer. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I just ended up giving up too much with Spellslinger. This character idea is one part Lara Croft, the other part Bruce Wayne. Hmm, now I wonder if it might be worth picking up a level in Vigilante later.

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+3 Arcane Savant
+3 Elite Upbringing
+2 Trained as a Weapon

Theme: Vekeshi Mystic -- At a tender young age, Eveline witnessed the public assassination of her mother and father. And with that one act she inherited her family name, wealth, priviledge, and a thirst for vengeance.

One day, while going through her father's things she discovered the Ashcroft family secret. Their sorcerous bloodine was first activated during a Vekeshi ritual.

Wanting to feel a connection to her lost family, she threw herself into the philosophy and discovered that revenge was only a distraction. And the one true path of retribution, was to endure, rebuild, and prosper into strength.

And through her parents' notes she found others who shared her new philosophy, and eventually she too was burnt by the flames, to arise as a phoenix.