Magus and Flame Blade

First off, this is NOT a "look at me devs, i want a faq on this" post as this is more of a corner case or combination of rules/FAQ's, it is more of an "could you rules knowledgeable forum posters give Your opinions on this matter"

1st question: If a Magus (normal or an archtype) gets access to the Druid spell Flame Blade (from level dip into druid, UMD with scroll or Wand, or custom spell at DM's discretion) Will it work with Spell Combat and/or Spell Strike ?

I think it does, based on the wording of the spell (You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar, so any feat or special ability one might have would work) AND this FAQ stating that a Bards inspire courage (Su) works on a Flame Blade.

As a Magus' Spell Strike is an Su that shouldn't be a problem, Spell Combat is Ex, but if a Flame Blade counts as a Weapon (and is a scimitar, therefore it meets the "while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon") I think it should work.

2nd Question: Is this to powerful ?
A magus having a 15-20 X2 (assuming Imp crit Feat) vs Touch AC with his shocking grasp infused scimitar does seem powerful (the bonus of having a higher crit chance on his shocking grasp spell is offset by targeting normal AC instead of Touch AC)

I think that works.

Further cheese: it's a scimitar. You could probably dervish dance with it.

I'm not sure how to get it though.

Spell research is always an option, assuming your DM gives you the green light.

Or dip three levels into Druid.

This exact question came up in a recent thread, and I believe the consensus then was that this worked fine as well.

Is it too powerful? *shrug* Seems like it requires some investment, so why shouldn't the rewards be worth it?

*ponders a Dervish Dancing Druid for a bit*

I think that works.

Further cheese: it's a scimitar. You could probably dervish dance with it.

I'm not sure how to get it though.

Dervish dance would not work with it. At least not for dex to damage. The reason is that dervish dance substitutes the strength to damage which the flame blade doesn't get. So there is nothing to substitute.

In other words: With dervish dance you could use dex to hit but would not get dex to damage.

Like the idea/style of this. As a DM I would allow it. :)

Keep in mind that if you do this, you become subject to Druidic restrictions on armor.

Would you be willing to use Gozreh's Trident instead of Flame Blade?

You'd be able to dodge the Druid armor restriction at that point.

First off, this is NOT a "look at me devs, i want a faq on this" post as this is more of a corner case or combination of rules/FAQ's, it is more of an "could you rules knowledgeable forum posters give Your opinions on this matter"

1st question: If a Magus (normal or an archtype) gets access to the Druid spell Flame Blade (from level dip into druid, UMD with scroll or Wand, or custom spell at DM's discretion) Will it work with Spell Combat and/or Spell Strike ?

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks.

You wield the flame blade "like a scimitar", but it isn't a "light or one-handed melee weapon". So you can't use spell combat while wielding a flame blade.

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

You wield the flame blade as a part of a melee attack, so you fulfil the requirements for spellstrike and you can use it.

Spell combat and Spellstrike are very different abilities.

Worship Sarenrae and ask your GM to add Magus to the following list ;-)

"(Sarenrae-worhsipping) Bards, clerics, paladins, and rangers may prepare flame blade as a 2nd-level spell. "

Edit : DR seems to be right about it though. From an old thread on these boards :

It's an immaterial touch attack delivered via spell. It functions "as a scimitar" but is not a scimitar. It is one-handed and you are considered to be casting a spell, not wielding a weapon and therefor proficiencies don't enter into it. It is not a light weapon--it is an immaterial touch attack. You cannot hold anything in the hand that is wielding a flameblade.

That's an extremely old quote.

Joshua may have been an official PFS guy at one point, but he's been wrong before, and his word is not binding today. I wouldn't go by that quote if I were the OP.

The common interpretation today is that feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical work with Flame Blade.

@Skaldi the Tallest; Gozreh's Trident is a Cleric and Druid 2nd level spell, so it would still need a level dip into one of those classes. The big thing with the Flame Blade is the Critical rating (starting at 18-20 /X2 and reaching 15-20 /X2 with improved critical) is of a bigger benefit to a Magus IMO.

@Diego Rossi; That a Flame Blade that is "as if it where a scimitar" is NOT a light or one-handed melee weapon when a normal scimitar is. Hmm, well it can't be sundered I think, if you are disarmed the spell ends (I think it does) I guess we look at the "as if it where a scimitar" part differently. Only similar "evidence" (and this would be grasping at straws) is that Spell-Like counts as spell casting for prerequisites or requirements.

@LazarX; Yeah, levels in Druid would give you an Armor restriction, No metal armors, but as far as I can see, there is nothing preventing a Druid from using Heavy armor (as long as it is NOT metal, so Dragon scale or something like that. And they get Heavy armor prof unless they want to take the penalties)

@The black raven; considering that the FAQ I linked in the original post states that Flame Blade (and Spiritual weapon,Mage's Sword and Ray spells) are granted the competance bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from the Bards Su class ability Inspire Courage. And in that post Rays and Flame Blade are "equal" sort of, and this FAQ shows that Rays count as weapons for various feats.

The only downside that I can think of is that Flame Blade is affected by Spell resistance, but in those cases so would Shocking Grasp.

Worship Sarenrae and ask your GM to add Magus to the following list ;-)

"(Sarenrae-worhsipping) Bards, clerics, paladins, and rangers may prepare flame blade as a 2nd-level spell."

Bahh, good thing I read the thread, someone beat me to this!

You can certainly add it via levels of Pathfinder Savant, but to make it work you probably really want it earlier in your career.

As the Magus didn't exist as a class when the above was written (Pathfinder didn't exist either, but gloss over that with your GM), you may get good mileage out of that as your request.

Dot for a neat idea

Magaambyan-arcanist Gives it for a 1 level dip without giving up spell caster levels and without making the spell level higher; however it takes a bunch of meh feats (one which by RAW you probably can't even get).

EDIT:1 level, not 11 level.

Magaambyan-arcanist Gives it for a 11 level dip without giving up spell caster levels and without making the spell level higher; however it takes a bunch of meh feats (one which by RAW you probably can't even get).

I'sure I wouldn't call 11 levels a "dip" in anything. How many levels does YOUR game go to?

Magus got umd so a wand is an option.

This Is the mythic version of flame blade:

The blade's damage increases to 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +20). The blade threatens a critical hit on a natural 18–20 as if it were an actual scimitar.

Augmented (3rd): If you expend two uses of mythic power, the blade threatens a critical hit on a natural 15–20, and bypasses hardness, fire resistance, and fire immunity.

From this I would read that a standard flame blade does not share the crit range of a scimitar.

I believe the reason the "wield like a scimitar" is there is history.
The spell dates back through several editions and it was important to note that a druid, who couldn't use swords, could use a flame blade like the only sword he was proficient in.

@Skaldi the Tallest; Gozreh's Trident is a Cleric and Druid 2nd level spell, so it would still need a level dip into one of those classes. The big thing with the Flame Blade is the Critical rating (starting at 18-20 /X2 and reaching 15-20 /X2 with improved critical) is of a bigger benefit to a Magus IMO.

I understand that Gozreh's Trident isn't a Magus spell. I'd suggested it to avoid the Druid Armor restriction.

I've been put under the impression here and elsewhere that the flame blade doesn't get the crit range of a scimitar. If it does, cool beans. I'd at least expect table variation and consult your GM before using the spell.

Seems like it would work to me. It functions "as a scimitar", and a scimitar is a one-handed weapon.

In regards to using spell strike, is it possible to "deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" if the weapon he is weilding is immaterial?

A similar question would be if brilliant and spell storing were compatible.

An interesting benefit of Flame Blade being a spell and not an object is that you cannot disarm or sunder it (as you could with a real scimitar)

@Diego Rossi; That a Flame Blade that is "as if it where a scimitar" is NOT a light or one-handed melee weapon when a normal scimitar is. Hmm, well it can't be sundered I think, if you are disarmed the spell ends (I think it does) I guess we look at the "as if it where a scimitar" part differently. Only similar "evidence" (and this would be grasping at straws) is that Spell-Like counts as spell casting for prerequisites or requirements.

Scorching ray already qualifies because its stat block says "Effect: ray," in the same way spiritual weapon says "Effect: magic weapon of force," mage's sword says "Effect: one sword," and flame blade says "Effect: sword-like beam."

Ray.
Magic weapon.
Sword.
Sword-like beam.

Not fluff, mechanics.

Until the spell say that the effect is a scimitar instead of "sword-like beam" it don't qualify as a "light or one-handed melee weapon ".

Touch attacks count as light one handed melee weapons afaik, so it's a moot point.

Touch attacks count as light one handed melee weapons afaik, so it's a moot point.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.

Again, two different things.

A touch attack isn't a light weapon. It isn't a weapon at all. It is a armed attack.

The flame blade is a weapon, but it isn't:
- a claw
- a unarmed strike
- a weapon listed under the header light weapons in the equipment table
- a weapon listed under the header one handed weapons in the equipment table
so it is not a valid weapon for spell combat.

Keep in mind that if you do this, you become subject to Druidic restrictions on armor.

there's still dragonhide armor